Talk:British Army other ranks rank insignia

Household Cavalry
The Household Cavalry, in which even the lowliest trooper was once a gentleman, have never used the rank of Sergeant, as it originates from the word servant. I've seen this asserted in any number of places, but never with a credible source.

Sergeant was originally an infantry rank only: no cavalry regiments had sergeants. (Nor did the artillery, for that matter.) All we have here is typical adherence to tradition by one of Britain's most conservative units.

More precisely: British cavalry regiments used to come in two flavours, horse and dragons. Horse regiments were always cavalry, and had no sergeants: dragoons were originally mounted infantry, and so did have sergeants.

By the middle of the eighteenth century, dragoons were indistinguishable from horse in equipment and tactics: however, they were paid less. As a cost-cutting exercise, the Government started converting horse regiments to dragoons: presumably they acquired sergeants at this time, or not long after.

The only horse regiments that escaped this conversion were ancestors of the current Household Cavalry regiments. Hence, no sergeants.

In hierarchical societies, service is not demeaning in itself: what matters is the status of your master and the capacity in which you serve. The word serjeant appeared in the titles of many offices of high social status (serjeant-at-arms, serjeant-at-law, serjeant-major-general), and in grand serjeanty, a form of land tenure under which e.g. the office of Lord High Constable was held.

I therefore submit that it is a myth that the Household Cavalry has no sergeants because sergeant=servant, and ask that it be knocked on the head. Franey 15:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Consistency with other WP articles...
... isn't actually part of the naming conventions. Shouldn't this article be at British Army Other Ranks insignia? Or perhaps British Army non-commissioned rank insignia? Alai 16:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should. British Army Other Ranks rank insignia would be my preference. Repetition maybe, but ORs are a class of people, and they wear insignia other than that of rank. -- Necrothesp 16:31, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. I originally created this page by adapting the title from U.S. Army enlisted rank insignia, but I appreciate "enlisted ranks" is a misnomer when referring to "other ranks" in the British forces.  Perhaps a change should be proposed? Dainamo 12:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Officers and other ranks
In my 25 years in the British Army, I rarely came across the term 'Officers and other ranks'. The more likely term was 'Officers and soldiers'. I assume that was because it was deemed more acceptable?

RASAM 20:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Variations
While the article does dip into the quagmire that is 'variations' of ranks, there are still many others that could be included:

The bomb or grenade above a Royal Engineers sergeant/staff sergeant's stripes.

The rank of WO ll Quartermaster Sergeant (QM Sgt), could also apply to 'Quartermaster Sergeant Instructor (QMSI). I realise that 'QMSI' is an appointment, not a rank, but so is 'QM Sgt' an appointment.

I seem to remember many years ago seeing a SNCO in the Queen Dragoon Guards (QDG) with four stripes (point at the bottom)and a crown. I think he might have been the Squadron Quartermaster Sergeant (SQMS).

I believe the 'Serjeant' spelling is still in use in the Light Infantry, as are such terms as 'Arms Cote' (Armoury).

I was hoping to find examples of different ranks' duties, so if there are any enthusiasts looking for something to add...

RASAM 20:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the comment regarding QMSI above and this should apply equally to other appointments like Artificer Quarter Master Sergeant (AQMS) and Staff Quarter Master Sergeant (SQMS) - Queen's Regulations refers.

N.B. As an aside "Arms Cote" is still in common usage in the more conservative infantry regiments. (FROGSMILE (talk) 19:48, 20 April 2011 (UTC))

Oddities On Rank Pages
On both this and the Ranks and insignia of NATO Armies Enlisted entry, the table showing British ranks and their insignia seem to have been replaced with Thailand. Any idea what's happened, and where the right insignia have gone? Torak 15:31, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Some images of chevrons or insignia wouldnt hurt either. J. ORLY? (talk) 01:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

British Military Ranks
After seeing it on the page for comparative NATO ranks, I posted on the talk page. Seeming, the NATO Army ranks page has not been edited and these images have spread, despite being wrong. I shall reiterate.
 * British Enlisted ranks are never worn as shoulder-marks. Grades OR-3 to -7 are worn just above the elbow, while the Warrant Officers wear their insignia on the forearm.
 * They are not embroidered directly into the uniform material.
 * The uniform is khaki, not olive drab.
 * The two insignia's for Warrant Officer Class II are the wrong way round in order of seniority.
 * The red ring around the Warrant Officer Class I insignia is only worn by infantry soldiers. Most holding this rank would not have one.
 * The Rank of Conductor is simply an appointment given to those holding the rank of WOI, so shouldn't really be included as it is only used in one corps. That said, the example shown has obviously been shrunk to fit (wrongly) the epaulette, the badge is at least three times the width of that shown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.123.218.105 (talk) 19:22, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

all points above are correct. Non-Commissioned ranks are worn, embroidered onto khaki felt, on the upper arm and Warrant Officer ranks are worn on the lower arm/wrist (either embroidered onto khaki felt, or in Shirt Sleeve Order, a metal badge on a wrist strap). Some units use brassards in Shirt Sleeve Order to preserve the shirt's material. Chest epaulets are worn in current combat dress (CS95) for all ranks, using a "Rank Slide" with the appropriate badge of rank embroidered. 89.243.50.168 (talk) 03:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The rank of conductor is shown separately since it is a disintinctive badge due to the wreath and is the most senior appointment. The red outline for WO1s is shown on the British Army website. Should it only apply in the infantry then an edit with a source for the information can bev added. I will reverse the WO2 badges on good faith and my own understanding that this would be correct. Dainamo (talk) 14:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Table is very unclear
It's a bit of a mess. Can someone with wikimarkup skills tidy it up? --Dweller (talk) 10:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Would something like this be clearer (and more accessible)? --RexxS (talk) 16:13, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Erm. MUCH BETTER. How's that? No, it's brilliant, thank you. --Dweller (talk) 07:49, 16 April 2015 (UTC)


 * While you're right Dweller, the table that was/is on the page is unclear, and quite a mess, it is in the same style (ie with the NATO code along the top) as other pages of a similar style (i.e. Military ranks of the Swedish Armed Forces). I'm not saying it doesn't need cleaning up, I'm just suggesting that it should stay of a similar style. Just my opinion. m8e39 10:47, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Anybody who does any web design will tell you that tables work best when cells of more or less the same size are arranged in the same column, which allows different widths of browser window to best accommodate the cells. The original table with ranks across the top forces every column to have to accommodate the relatively large amount of text in the "Typical Command Size or Appointment" field. With 10 columns, it makes a real mess on narrow screens. It's a no-brainer to transpose the table and have different width columns by using the ranks as row headers instead, leaving just 5 columns to fit onto the screen width. While I can see some value in consistency across articles (not required by MOS, of course), it's not a good idea to stick with bad design choices simply because other articles also have bad design choices. Naturally, that's just my opinion as well. --RexxS (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Put like that, I see why it needs changing. Didn't think about different screen sizes etc. and, of course, I had noticed the "Typical Command Size or Appointment" issue you mentioned. m8e39 06:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

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