Talk:British Rail Class 104

Abbreviations
Could somebody explain why some abbreviations (those ending LC) are -LC and not CL? They are described as "... Lavatory Composite", so shouldn't the abbreviation be ...LC, not CL?

E.g. current listing for
 * "30291 	Driving Motor Lavatory Composite (DMCL) 	4 	50424–50427 	L.M.R. three car sets".

Which is wrong, the abbreviation or the description? Regards, Trafford09 (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, well I reckon none of them are quite right.
 * Checking references
 * (i) Brian Haresnape (Fleet Survey no. 8): the nomenclature used is, eg, DMBC(L) for "Driving Motor Brake Composite, Lavatory", although he does mention at the end of the introduction that certain types had one of their two engines removed (including some 104s) and were correspondingly reclassified as DHMCL (no brackets), where H stood for Half.
 * (ii) Kevin Robertson "First Generation DMUs" uses '(L)' in the type table, but dispenses with the brackets in the photo captions.
 * (iii) But what did BR use? The nearest I can immediately lay my hands on is, wait for it, a souvenir programme for Reading Maintenance Depot Open Day (01/06/1985 -- part of GW150). It's very amateurish compared with today's publications, but clearly written and published by BR, and Reading Depot was (and still is) a DMU depot, so they ought to know what they're talking about... At the back is the shed allocation for 1985 and this lists the individual and set running numbers for 25 Class 117s (DMBS + TC(L)+DMS) and 19 Class 119s (DMBC + TS(L)+DMS(L)), plus two prototype Class 210 (DMBSO+TSO+TCO(L)+DTSO).
 * Hence, I would say, 'Lavatory' is always last, and I would place the L in brackets too.
 * EdJogg (talk) 20:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, the 104s... I commuted on those between Blackburn and Bolton, circa 1983-8. I always tried to make for the DMCL, because the first-class sections had been declassified to second by the simple means of removing the markings. The comfy seats were left as they were - with the bonus that in four of the twelve seats, you could see through the driving cab to where you were going - or had been, because the nice drivers at Newton Heath usually pulled up the blinds. The trains may have been old, but gave a much better ride than the cl. 142 Pacers that replaced them, and which had no forward view. Anyway. DMC(L) was the earlier code, changed to DMCL circa 1980. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, and the order of the words in the description doesn't necessarily match the order of the letters in the code. Consider hauled stock, where the code SK is generally described as "Corridor Second". Regarding the order of letters in the code, I did see the rule written down, but can't remember where. The codes are based on the old LNER system, and for hauled stock, the letter for the class (C, F, S, T, U) is preceded by information on the major facilities (B=Brake, R=Refreshment) and followed by the style of accommodation (K=corridor with lavatory, L=Lavatory, non-gangwayed, O=Open). For multiple-unit stock these are slightly different, and the whole code is preceded by M or T for motor or trailer, and further preceded by D for Driving. At some point in the 1980s they decided to restrict the number of letters to four. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * So we have a choice, and I would suggest that the correct choice is to use the nomenclature used when the units were built (or later modified) since this is a fairly easy rule to apply. -- EdJogg (talk) 21:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

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