Talk:British Raj/Archive 4

Requested moves
requested moves:
 * Talk:British Raj/Archive 1 – British Raj to British India – LuiKhuntek – December 2005
 * Talk:British Raj/Archive 1 – British Raj to British India – AjaxSmack – October 2006
 * Talk:British Raj/Archive 1 –  British Raj to British India – AjaxSmack – August 2007

British India (Band)
British India redirects to this page, instead of the page British India (band). Can someone fix that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.118.39 (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The vast majority of internal links to British India are lookng for this page, so that change would be inappropriate. -- Relata refero (disp.) 15:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

'British Indo-Subcontinent Colony'
would be a better & more appropriate & more meaningful & comprehensive title for the article. The word 'Raj' in the title 'British Raj' is not an English word & does not have any meaning in English.The colony extended from Burma to Afghanistan, & Nepal to Maldive Islands, so it covered more than India. And so it will include Hindustan irrespectively whether it was ruled by the British Government indirectly by proxy via the officers of the British East India Company since the start of British colonization in 1637AD there or directly by British Government through a Viceroy as 'Indian Empire' since 1857AD to its end in 1947. ILAKNA (talk) 08:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

'Raj' is commonly encountered in the names of Indian restaurants, it is therefore not unknown within wider English speaking society. Moreover the term ‘the Raj’ is well known and understood as a reference to the British Indian empire. Both in contemporary and historical usage. It was also (in an historical context) referred to as the Indian empire, and as such is the most likely (and indeed most commonly encountered) name for both the era and area. The article is about the era of direct rule from London. It should make reference (and does) to the wider historical context, but there are other articles that deal with other periods of Indian history. Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)]]

'British Indo-Subcontinent Colony' - you have to name it as something in ready usage, so people can look it up with ease, and instantly know what the subject matter is. Although 'British Raj' is not perfect 'British Indo-Subcontinent Colony' should certainly not be considered. It might sum it up for about 200 years - but that's not really the point. The point is, nobody calls it that. But anyway.... it is debatable whether there was any British 'colonization' in 17th century India. During that period, the number of British residents in India, was numbered in the 100's, as compared to the tens of millions of Indians who surrounded them. Up until the mid 18th century, the Company actually limited the extent of British settlement, and would seek the deportation of any English resident not on their pay-roll. They were keen to keep Indian business a strictly East India Company affair, and happily closed-off India for most of the British people whilst maintaining a minimal staff in South Asia (to reduce overheads). This was hardly an act of "colonization", in fact, it was quite the opposite. Of course, times did change, but we're talking about the 17th century here. For example, modern Japanese firms might buy land in India, employ private security guards, maintain a staff of a few hundred Japanese in their factories and offices, then move a good portion of their profits back to their home island - this is not much more than the East India Company did c.1650. Hence, to use 'British Indo-Subcontinent Colony' for the entire period of British presence on Indian soil, is to imply that it was a colony from the outset, or that the Company (at that time) intended to colonize - which is fatuous, so within this title there is a debatable historical conclusion - whereas, at least "British Raj", is fairly neutral and widely understood. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 02:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Insinuation of bankrupt Britain
While there can be doubt that Britain was bankrupt at the end of WW-2; I find it hard to believe that this is what led to Britain's apparent "decision" to leave India. Logically, continuing to exploit the colonies would work to their benefit financially. Also, the British would have relinquished control of all their colonial assets including Africa which they apparently didn't. Perhaps someone can provide some information in this regard. 124.124.0.1 (talk) 10:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Please note the user 124.124.0.1 has been Identified as demolitionman who has been banned--Rockybiggs (talk) 08:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting reply. 121.243.204.78 (talk) 17:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The talk about leaving India had been underway since long before the war, it was agreed at the start of the war that once it was over India would be granted indpendance.

Africa was granted independance, it just wasn't anywhere near as ready for it as India was so it took time. FYI most of Africa made a loss for the UK economically.--Him and a dog 19:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That would be logical, except that the British did not 'exploit' the colonies economically. Most economic historians consider the Empire to have been a drain on the public finances, with the drain increasing in later years.  Indeed, no modern economic historian, of any political persuasion, believes it to have been of direct benefit to the public finances.  It was, for the most part, justified by the reduction of the risk experienced by private sector investments overseas, and hence their greater return on those investments.
 * However, most economic analysis is that even with this private benefit, there was a net cost to the United Kingdom. See Cain and Hopkins (1987), Daunton (1989), Davis and Huttenback (1986), Foreman-Peck (1989), Hopkins (1988), Kennedy (1989), O'Brien (1988), Offer (1993), Porter (1988), et al!  This contradicts the New Economic History that seemingly justifies slavery.  What the explanation of Empire was is unknown.  I believe (as perhaps is indicated by the citations above) that, as a democratic country, the UK isn't necessarily held by 'logic' in its decision making (or, rather, democracy is Pareto non-optimal).  Empire was guided by the people's belief in an act of 'gentlemanly capitalism' - or an act of charitable contrition and penance for the United Kingdom being the first to industrialise.
 * Nonetheless, I depart from the issue at hand. There is modern consensus that India, and the rest of empire, cost the United Kingdom money, and that the United Kingdom had little money to lose.  There is a logical leap there.  If someone could provide some citations that state unequivocally that the two were connected, and played the key part in the officials' rationale, it is a straightforward matter to include in the article. Bastin 23:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

"If someone could provide some citations that state unequivocally that the two were connected, and played the key part in the officials' rationale, it is a straightforward matter to include in the article." .... I don't think there is any, at least, not by any serious author. Many historians, especially of the Indian nationalist ilk, will claim that the British were "forced" to leave India, by one means or another. There was indeed a moral force put upon them, but after WWII, a Socialist government had gained power and the tide of public opinion had turned against old-school imperialism. It was no longer considered glorious to hang on to India, and, as has been pointed out, promises had been made to effect Indian independence during WWII anyway. Indeed, even during the 19th century there had been talk of eventual Indian independence. I think this kind of talk about the British being "forced" to leave in 1947, is quite anti-British in fact (as well as historically dubious), it robs the common British people of their share in the eventual (and rightful) independence of India. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 05:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction: There was some talk of granting India dominion status during WW-2 but that was merely to get Indians onboard the WW-2. Do you have any sources to back up this claim? Giving common British people their share in the eventual and rightful independence of India is a downright laughable notion. 121.243.204.78 (talk) 11:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As is the notion that "British did not 'exploit' the colonies economically," for that matter. Naturally, we have neo/colonial economists who know which side their bread is buttered (of course, we also have to accept as a given that liberal-democracy is democratic, which it is not). El_C 20:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In equal parts, very Leninist and very wrong. Whatever the difference between the two is. Bastin 21:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Apportioning aside, too little substance and too much sophistry for an intelligent debate. El_C 21:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * To imply that Britain offered India independance during the war just as a way to get them onside is utter nonsense. The major reason Winston Churchill was so unpopular during the 1930s and completely frozen out of politics was that he was so rabidly against Indian indepedance- whilst the political establishment of the time was activly working towards it.--Him and a dog 12:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"There was some talk of granting India dominion status during WW-2" ... oh please!!! You really are splitting hairs. Dominion Status, (like Canada & Australia) meant independence, ... independence with a few (easily breakable) strings attached - but independence nevertheless. Jinnah certainly understood that. Even after 1947 (up until 1950) India didn't become a Republic, and it's still in the British Commonwealth to this day, and Brits had special rights of residence in India right up until the 1980's - so obviously "dominion status" was just a minor detail. DOG is right - Churchill would not have let go of India - he clearly said so. If you think that it's a a "downright laughable notion" that Churchill being voted out of office (by the British people) didn't speed up independence for India, then the only thing "downright laughable" is your lack of knowledge on this subject matter. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 00:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Blenheim Shot - your lack of knowledge is not "downright laughable" - it is appalling to say the least. India didn't become a Republic as it was framing a constitution - incidentally, the longest constitution ever written. And it is no longer "The British Commonwealth" - it is merely "The Commonwealth" - that was a pre-condition India set to remaining in the Commonwealth. And "special rights of residence right until the 1980s" is a figment of a fertile imagination. Churchill or not, the Britishers were going to be thrown out of the country either way, especially since the Indian Army was in no mood to follow orders of the British officers. 124.124.0.1 (talk) 08:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello Demolitionman, Surely your not talking about the same Indian army which fought and followed orders during WW2 (even including their dis-loyal colleagues who fought for the Japanese). --Rockybiggs (talk) 12:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

When were 'Britishers' thrown out of India? My cousin is over there right now, I'm a bit worried about this development...--Him and a dog 18:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Leaving rhetoric and PoVs aside, there are plenty of books which will point out that there is a middle ground between the two very biased views being peddled here. May I suggest (fom my own readings) Lawrence James book on the Raj and Collins & Harper's Fall of British South Asia. And just a word of note blatantly pointed views do little to improve credibillities of editors peddling their views. Please remember either side has a basis, and it is worthwhile to consider that it may be worthwhile to look into that. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 17:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am going to add, I am quite bothered by the fact that every discussion seems to end up in the INA for some reason, and painfully brings out an offensive ignorance and PoV. Please remember there is more to 1857-1947 than WWII, there is more to the Indian movement than Gandhi and INA, and there is more to INA than Slim's discredited accounts and Lowe's criticised accounts. Take a step back and a deep breath, then think over what it is that is worth inclusion and stands up to scrutiny. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Nehru quote
There is a Nehru quote in the Effects on economy section :

A significant fact which stands out is that those parts of India which have been longest under British rule are the poorest today. Indeed some kind of chart might be drawn up to indicate the close connection between length of British rule and progressive growth of poverty.

Nehru is not academic, and Nehru's criticism is not academic criticism. The Nehru quote in the Effects on economy section serves no purpose. There is no need to highlight the opinion of an non-Academic and it is giving too much weight on Nehru's opinion. I am removing the personal opinion of Nehru.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 11:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I suggest leaving it in the boxed form. Nehru's opinion, while not academic in nature, is hardly inconsequential. And, the boxed nature indicates that it is an opinion rather than a statement of obvious fact. The reality is that we (on wikipedia) are not likely to figure out the economic effects of the Raj (even if we could, that would be OR) so best practices indicate that important points of view are appropriately included in the article. --Regents Park (paddle with the ducks) 13:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Otolemur is suggesting that Nehru's quote doesn't belong in this particular section given that it should contain economic facts and not opinions - perhaps it can be moved to another section? TheBlueKnight (talk) 10:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah probally a good point. The fact is that the Indian economy grew under Britain- I've no figures for individual areas unfortunatly. {User:Josquius 11:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Just saw it - it is merely a box on the right hand side and is not directly in the section. The view of India's first PM is quite fine in a small box - actually i think it is pretty important. However, if you feel like moving it to a more appropriate section, be my guest. TheBlueKnight (talk) 11:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't see where else it would go? The section is titled "Effects on the Economy" and the quote is about those effects. Ideally, if there were a sub-article, that's where it would go, but there isn't one. Seems to me that the quote is useful and germane. While the reality is that it is impossible to gauge the true economic effects, positive or negative (a lot can happen in 200 years!), the wikipedia reader should know what an important leader of pre and post independence India thought. --Regents Park (paddle with the ducks) 14:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That does make sense. TheBlueKnight (talk) 18:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have severe objection to Nehru's analysis. There should be a question what is the foundation of his comment. We cannot include a random quote in this way.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 05:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This article is already representing the british viewpoint quite well. Will removing or keeping nehru's comment really make much difference?  67.169.0.250 (talk) 06:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The question is not about British viewpoint or Indian viewpoint. The question is about factual accuracy. If you are a Nehru-fan, I will bring hundreds of sources, and all are Indian sources, which will shame you. My stance is clear, include academic view, include historian's view, include economist's view, not the view of a politician, especially one who has no contribution to pre-1947 politics. Nehru was neither academic nor philosopher. His only significance is that for any reason he was able to take the PM's chair as India's first prime minister, there is no other historic significance of Nehru.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 07:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * My suggestion is to leave it in. I am not comfortable with British viewpoints vs Indian viewpoints because the points of view of historians tends to be divided on lines other than ethnicity (except for historians with dubious agendas) and if the only purpose of the quote was to present something that qualifies as an "indian viewpoint", I'd say dump it. However, Nehru was an important and influential political figure, both pre- and post-independence, and including his view in a box (which is obviously separate from the text) is useful, interesting, and adds value to the article. What might be interesting is to add a quote from some other significant figure (Niall Ferguson, perhaps) that conveys the opposite message. That would help make it clear that the economic effects of the Raj are complex. (BTW, dismissing Nehru as an insignificant figure, while an acceptable viewpoint, is veering close to WP:OR.)--Regents Park (paddle with the ducks) 15:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Does Nehru give any scientific explanation behind his claim?  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 15:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not the point. If scientific explanations for everything were the litmus test for inclusion in wikipedia, 99% of the material in the encyclopedia would need to be tossed out. An encyclopedia presents information that is of value to the reader and contextualizes that information appropriately. This quote is of value and is properly contextualized. --Regents Park (paddle with the ducks) 16:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The article can be modified to to make it more compatible with the quote or the quote modified/nuanced to make it more compatible with rest of the article. History IS about viewpoints and definitely not subjected to scientific scrutiny. I think the main problem here is that the quote, as it is right now, sort of stands out against the rest of the article and doesn't contribute much or provide value to any viewpoint. Its nothing more than a symbolic/token statement in the context of this article. 67.169.0.250 (talk) 06:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Even Noam Chomsky in his book Year 501: The Conquest Continues, Published by South End Press, 1993 ISBN 0896084442, 9780896084445 link cites Nehru's quote. --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 17:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not think the average reader would think that Nehru was either an academic or a philosopher. However, given that he was the first PM is pretty historically significant. I would also think that Nehru contributed significantly in the pre-1947 era. TheBlueKnight (talk) 08:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Dubious
I note ref note 86, which I realise now is what the section above the last deals with. Sumit Sarkar has been quoted among afew other authors, to support this point. Not noted is the fact that Sarkar also notes couple of pages before that the severe civil unrest around the Red Fort trials and Bombay mutiny, and also links these to the end of the Raj. This needs to be corrected, and it does give a one sided view. A number of other authors will also note that no plans for "transfer of power" were in place as late as 1946, with the then viceroy still trying to solve the Hindu-Muslim power sharing outlines. This needs to be put in context. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

So please go ahead and put it in context. TheBlueKnight (talk) 19:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It was done a while ago. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 23:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Now sure what you did, but here is what notes says:

And here is what the text that refers to these two notes says:

Obviously the text in the article is still not saying the same thing as the notes that it is referring to. 67.169.0.250 (talk) 03:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What the quotes in ref note 86 says is-

This, taken with the Brown and Sarkar references do I think reflect what the text says. If you wish, I will provide more references. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 09:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Based on the reference note the text should say something like: The situation in India was such that a large-scale anti-British disorder was a real possibility and the support of British Indian army could not be relied on. This combined with weak British exchequer after WW II meant that British no longer had the resources or confidence to maintain their unpopular rule in India. The way the text is currently structured ( between two paragraphs dealing with Hindu-Muslim issues) gives the impression that British decided to withdraw because they didn't want to deal with Hindu-Muslim riots. 67.169.0.250 (talk) 04:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I see what you're saying. Why dont you incorporate the sentence into the article, the prose may require a little bit tinkered at, but seems appropriate to me. Thanks for pointing this out. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 11:18, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't see this. I have rephrased the sentences in question to reflect the sources. There is no danger that any reader will make the interpretation suggested by the IP.  Plans may not have been in place for the logistics of a transfer of power until 1946, but Pethick-Lawrence, Cripps, and other Labourites had assured Gandhi, Nehru, V. K. Krishna Menon and others that they would deliver on their promise of self-government for Indians if and when they were elected.  Britain certainly had the military might to hold on; they might not have had the manpower, since the reinforced British army in India was no longer keen to stay on after the war.  Anthony Low and others have written about this. (After all, it took less than a year after the Quit India Resolution for the country to become quiet again and remain so for the duration of the war.  And this was when Britain was stretched thin.) They didn't have the international support either; in particular, Roosevelt had made independence of India a major issue with Churchill.    Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You need to remember that the Congress leadership, most notably Nehru fell out bigtime with the labour group after Cripp's mission, and Nehru went as far as to term the labour politicians "Humbugs" when it came to. My references suggest that plans for India Congress/Muslim league/something Indian government were being planned for reinstation, but nothing suggest these were to be much different different from the plans put in place in 1936. "Transfer of power" and the logistics of it are not mentioned in much detail, ie, independence for India, in the 1947 avatar, were not in the horizon. Also the promise of self-government and port-folio sharing, as promised by the war-time missions, you will remember were wholly unsatisfactory to the Congress' demands for complete independence. As for the 1942 movement itself, that is exactly what is being emphasised. 1942 was crushed with the Indian forces, not British ones. And in 1946 it was clear it was not going to happen. This is emphasised very strongly in a large number of the more modern histories of the Raj. Wether the British Army had the manpower or will are not discussed at any length, because it had thus far in history of British India played a minimal part (correct me if I am wrong, I am sure I am not). I haven't read Low, but I will try and find the book if you give me the title (I agree with the conclusions). Also the issue of not having international support is actually more important than the article text rflects, and I think it needs to be mentioneda bit more strongly as well. As for Britain having the military means of holding on (with British forces I mean), is there any note on these? I haven't read any author so far who suggest that this was actually considered. But again, I'll be happy to accept if I am wrong. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Low and others

 * "Some have been tempted to suggest that in the end a good deal turned on the Indian National Army trials, the Bombay Naval Mutiny,, and such like. They overlook the basic reality that by this time the British had decided to leave.   As a consequence of their experience in 1937 most Congress leaders now knew, moreover (especially after 1942) that the future chiefly turned on their winning the next elections.  For them a revolution had become all but unnecessary.  The could have the substance of their desires through the transfer of power which in principle the British were offering them.  And so, in the end, it transpired.  One thinks especially heree of Vallabhbhai Patel, who long thought (through the years of non-cooperation, the Bardoli satyagraha, the Civil Disobedience movements) that the way to proceed was by sustained dominant peasant satyagraha, but who, following the Congress victories in 1937, and the threatening upheavals (for him) of 1942, came out of prison in 1945, not to organise yet another agitation (he was a prime figure in defusing the Bombay mutiny), but to organise efficiently the upcoming elections.  At these, outside the Muslim-majority areas, Congress outdid its 1937 successes (the earlier, remaining patchiness had gone).  Patel's was then the prime voice that spoke for Congress' acceptance of office in a national government in mid-1946, because, in an otherwise potentially revolutionary situation, he saw all central power here within his grasp.  Congress could now, in fact, become the Raj."  (Low, D. A., Smuts Professor of the History of the British Commonwealth, University of Cambridge, Eclipse of Empire, Cambridge and London: Cambridge University Press.  Pp. xvi, 375. (1991) pages 97-98.
 * "The Congress brought the country and the 'peasants' (whoever they might be) into its orbit to the dismay of the Raj in the 1930s; the rural upsurge did not prevent the Raj from reimposing its grip on the country; indirectly, however, it destroyed the Raj because the British had taken to governing India by certain electoral rules which the Congress turned to its advantage." Rajat Kanta Ray, Professor of History, University of Calcutta in forward to .(More coming.)  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (Economic)"With the creation, however, of the Reserve Bank of India under the 1935 Act, real control over monetary policy in India came to be placed within India itself. Furthermore,in spite of the 'home charges' the financial benefits brought to the British Isles from India were constantly diminishing during the inter-war period; while in India itself the British never had available anywhere near enough surplus revenue to make extensive 'developments' possible.  In view of all this the long-standing doubts in some quarters as to whether the Indian Empire was worth the trouble it gave began by the 1930s to spread.  The coup de grace came in the Second World War when Britain's largest financial stake in India, the sterling debt and its interest, disappeared, to be replaced by Britain's rupee debt to India.  With that, Britain's prime eonomic reason for remaining in India during the interwar period evaporated." (Low, Eclipse of Empire, p. 73).
 * (Army)"It was in some respects the same story with the Army in India. Although defence expenditure had actually dropped from 34 per cent of the total expenditure of the Government of India in 1914 to 27 per cent in 1933, the Garran Tribunal in 1933 laid down that Britain should now pay £1.5 million per annum towards the maintenance of British troops in India; while as a consequence of the Chatfield Committee in 1939 Britain became responsible for much of the cost of the Indian Army's modernisation.  Despite all the talk of 'eastern barracks', the main attack on the Japanese was then made, not by the British from India, but by the Americans from across the Pacific.  At the same time, because of increased recruitment during the Second World War, the proportion of British to Indian officers (italics mine F&f) fell from 10:1 to 4:1.  Like so many of the newer entrants to the Indian Civil Service, these were being increasingly drawn from the urban intelligentsia and entrepreneurial rather than from the more traditional landed families.  So yet another sea-change was on its way."  (Ibid., p. 74)
 * (Two central facts) "Yet two central facts in this whole story remain. Despite the herculean efforts of the Indian national movement, it never once broke the hold of the British Raj over India.  Many critical decisions were made in Britain; but there was never a traumatic collapse there of the will to govern India either.  If this suggests that for further enlightenment one has to look more closely within India itself, that indeed seems the path of wisdom.  For when one does so, it soon becomes apparent that, alongside the protracted conflict between Congress and the British, which has understandably dominated existing accounts, there was the no less significant process by which Congress captured the Raj in India from the British by supercession."  (Ibid., p. 74).  (More coming)   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (British and the Congress, From inaugural lecture, Smuts Chair, "The Contraction of England") "It is then well to notice the degree to which the particular quality of imperialist reaction largely determined the character of the nationalist confrontation and the extent of nationalist mobilisation. In the Indian case Britain's two-headedness largely explains the phenomenon of Gandhi.  His politics directly mirrored Britain's ambivalence.  He knew it was necessary to agitate against them; they would never move without this.  But non-violence could keep their worst instincts at bay, allow their better one's to prevail.  Gandhi would have been unnecessary in the Philippines, impossible in Vietnam; he precisely fitted the nationalist needs against the British in India."
 * "The general point goes wider still. Against the French in Indochina the Vietnamese nationalists needed to develop new ideologies, cadre-led mass movements, and a skilled guerrilla army.  Against the Americans, the Filipinos had no such requirement.  Against the uncertain British, India's nationalists needed less popular support than the Vietnamese, more than the Filipinos.  So aside from securing support from India's merchant communities, the Indian National Congress 'went rural', but essentially only in association with India's richer peasants, since against the ambivalent British is was rarely necessary to mobilise any more deeply." (Ibid. p. 12).  (More coming.)   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (From: ) "Precisely because the British were so inherently ambidextrous, it was in India that a far more complex situation arose. In India there was for a long while a running conflict between those who believed that because of Britain's utter determination to hold on to its empire only uncompromising resistance that bordered upon, where it did not actually cross over into, violence would ever succeed in moving them, and those who believed that given Britain's commitment to doctrines of parliamentary government, skillful negotiation with them was was far more likely to to bring about effective political advance than would ever be achieved by anomic violence or by activist extremism.  There were, however, large elements of wishful thinking in both these ways of thinking.  While each quite accurately reflected one of the poles in the British position neither encompassed its overall duality." (p. 38)
 * "It was precisely in this respect that Gandhi made his quite momentous contribution to India. Since it was a vital part of his extraordinary political genius that he not only overrode this fruitless difference, but seized hold, not of one of the poles in the British position, but their very coexistence. Whilst vehemently denouncing any resort to violence he never conceded that negotiations on their own would ever succeed in moving the British.  Only completely self-sacrificing, non-violent agitations would, he believed, serve to force their hand and make them grant India the swaraj it demanded in accord with their self-avowed liberal values.  It is now indeed possible to see that it was above all Gandhi's masterly grasp of the critical requirements of the Indian nationalist movement in its momentous battle with India's profoundly ambiguous British rulers that gave him the towering position he came to hold in the India national  movement.  In the Philippines it is more than probable that he would have been marginalised as having very little to offer elite negotiation in Washington.  In Indonesia it is well-nigh certain that he would have been exiled to some distant island for life: while in Vietnam (or so Ho Chi Minh believed from a very early date) there is every likelihood that he would have been done to death.  By contrast in India his satyagraha doctrine proved to be quintessentially functional to the ambivalence of the British, having the critically important merit of facing very directly the equivocation inherent in it.  Once it appositeness for the Indo-British struggle came to be fully grasped by the serried ranks of the Indian nationalist movement, it soon became eagerly adopted as the preeminent weapon in its armoury, and he its undisputed leader. ... None of this, to repeat, is to suggest that nationalist initiatives were not of preeminent importance.  They initiated the encounter, and their aggregated response finally won the day." (pp. 38-40)   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:33, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I am a bit confused in this quite extensive quotation here, many from Low. I must confess I have in fact read the first quotation you place, which I know was in fact made in particular opposition to R.C. Majumdar's momentous work of the independence movement. What I will seek to clarify is are these quotations in reference to those two lines? because I am begining to feel these are moving away from the point to more of the history the Indian movement in 1930s. I see you provide notes on the Vietnam situation, and its comparisons to India. Allow me more specifically to direct you to the authors I can recall off the top of my head, I think Penderel Moon himself compares the situation in 1945-46 to "Edge of a Volcano" and specifically cites the INA trials etc. There is ofcourse Lawrence James' work that I cite quite often, which infact trolls through India Office archives, and shows that Congress's exploitation of the INA-related sentiments in India during the '46 election campaign drove home the fear of native forces (Indian Army) being unreliable home. Ronald Hyam I have already quoted, there's also Baylyl and Harper's "Forgotten Armies-fall of British Asia" which offer an opposite perspective, as well Sumit Sarkar's which I have already mentioned before. Till I can clarify what it is you're seeking to demonstrate, I will not go into quotations. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 23:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC) PS: I have read some criticisms of Low's analysis, some as late last year I believe, as I have said before on this very page, please do look beyond the 1950s-60s "Cambridgist" history, which have been criticised in the past for subscribing to the "Old boys" story of the Raj. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 00:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The current text, which is clearer that what was their earlier, says the following:

What does the phrase for continuing to control an increasingly restless India really mean? Does it mean hindu-muslim unrest, does it mean anti-British unrest? or both? What does the citations that this text refer to say? I would suggest the following:

Please note the differences in italics as pointed out in the reference notes. 67.169.0.250 (talk) 02:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What I object to is the last sentence. It makes it sound that the minor sidelines of 1946 (the INA trials, the naval mutiny, even Jinnah's Direct Action Day) were responsible for the Labour party decision to transfer power.  In fact it was the elections of 1937 and the Indian National Congress's convincing victory in them that changed the Labour party's outlook on India.  As Low says (in Britain and Indian Nationalism: the imprint of ambiguity, CUP, 2002, p. 34), "Before long, however, at a meeting between several British opposition Labour Party leaders and Jawaharlal Nehru at Sir Stafford Cripp's house at Filkins on 24 June 1938, several leading British opposition Labour Party members finally acknowledged that if and when they came to power they would forwith institute a full transfer of power in India.  It is significant that they talked of a treaty to encompass Britain's residual interests there."  It is true that after the Cabinet Mission in 1942, there were some minor differences, but the Congress never lost Labour support, and this was crystallized (from the Labor's viewpoint) in the Congress's even more resounding victory in the 1946 elections in India.  And here, by the way, is Wikipedia's own page on Cripps' Mission: "'The long-term significance of the Cripps Mission only really became apparent in the aftermath of the war, as troops were demobilised and sent back home. Even Churchill recognised that there could be no retraction of the offer of Independence which Cripps had made, although by the end of the war Churchill was out of power and could only watch as the new Labour government gave India independence. This confidence that the British would soon leave was reflected in the readiness with which Congress politicians stood in the elections of 1945-6 and formed provincial governments.[1] In retrospect, this unsuccessful and badly-planned attempt to placate the Congress in return for temporary wartime support was the point at which the British departure from India became inevitable at the war's end.'"

Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  11:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS I noticed that someone had changed "manpower" to "reliability of native forces." There is no evidence that this played a pivotal role, as I've indicated above. I have reverted that edit.  Sure you can find a quote here or there, that might support that, but it is not even remotely the consensus view.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I did change the manpower to native forces, which is what Hyam talks about, and is mirrored in the works eg of James and Sarkar. And "a few quotes here and there" is not a very accurate portrayal of the quotation. I am sure the quotation, in a book by Hyam, to support his analysis, and in concurrence quite afew other quotes and opinions in other works of history is more than just that. And what Low seems to consider minor sidelines have in fact given much more prominence by a number of other authors as having played a very prominent role, not least because the Congress drummed up these events during the election campaign of '46, which I have outlined above. I dont think you will find that any consensus view exists of which were the pivotal events, but that they are considered significant is possibly shown by Low's admission that "some" consider it as having influenced the course of '46-'47, as the passage you quote show. And, as a number of authors I have mentioned argue(not least Penderel Moon himself outlines),  the events were in fact much more significant than "India-the transfer of power" may imply. Also, as you outline above, there was a general movement in the direction of transfer per labour policy, but even then differences existed between Congress, labour, Viceroy, etc etc, so its far from a straightforward story. what these events did was "push an already swinging door", as Raymond Callahan says (Raymond Callahan, The American Historical Review, Vol. 100, No. 1 (Feb., 1995), pp. 216-217). I dont think trying to assign singular importance to any one event will help, since different views exists, even among authors that you have provided as references. Also, the direct action day (since it was mentioned) surely is not a minor sideline? Isn't it one of key events that influenced the partition plan? rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid Low makes no such admission, he mainly uses the views of some historian to make his point, nowhere does he say that those views might be valid. Low remains the preeminent historian of Indian nationalism in the inter-war years and of British decolonisation in general, one liberally referred to and deferred to by Hyam himself in his book.  As for Direct Action Day, sure it influenced the partition, but not the decision to give India its independence; that essentially goes back (in Labour party circles) to the 1937 elections, some even say to 1929, to Irwin's offer of Dominion Status (which was initially agreed to by Gandhi, Patel, Sapru, Motilal Nehru, Jinnah, ...) but which was scuttled by Nehru Junior and then reluctantly joined in by Gandhi (to keep the INC united).  Same with INA trials; sure, the Congress exploited the situation to win a resounding victory in the 1946 elections, but again, the reason the Congress was contesting in the first place was that they had tasted power in 1937 and now saw elections as the quickest way to independence.  The importance thing is to not get the major reasons for independence confused with minor reasons.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:26, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS I agree with your quote from Callahan, about the already swinging door, and don't disagree that details should be added, but I think that the History of the British Raj should be the place to first add the details; they could then be weighed, sifted, and mulled over before being WP:SS'd here. Regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. Details about causes etc are better suited for sub-articles where they can be weighed, sifted, mulled, ...... --Regents Park (count the magpies) 03:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyam
Reply to user:RegentsPark's rv and to user:rueben lys: The problem is that the consensus among historians who have studied Indian nationalism in the crucial years 1917 to 1947 is simply against the view that there were imminent insurrections (whether by the native soldiers in the Indian Army or by revolutionaries of various shades of opinion.)  To be sure the Indian Army couldn't be relied upon to be completely loyal in case of a popular revolt by the Congress, but that is different from making the unreliability the primary reason to quit. Even the Hyam quote supplied here to bolster the use of "native forces" is cherry picked from the book. Here is the quote supplied for the edit: "'p. 106 Quote:By the end of 1945, he and the Commander-in-chief, General Auckinleck were advising that there was a real threat in 1946 of large scale anti-British Disorder amounting to even a well-organised rising aiming to expel the British by paralysing the administration. Quote:...it was clear to Atlee that everything depended on the spirit and reliability of the Indian Army:'Provided that they do their duty, armed insurrection in India would not be an insolube problem. If, however, the Indian Army was to go the other way, the picture would be very different... Quote:...Thus, Wavell concluded,if the army and the police 'failed' Britain would be forced to go. In theory, it might be possible to revive and reinvigorate the services, and rule for another fifteen to twenty years, but: 'it is a fallacy to suppose that the solution lies in trying to maintain status quo. We have no longer the resources, nor the necessary prestige or confidence in ourselves.'"

This certainly creates the impression that the unreliability was a big reason. What we are not told is that Hyam says a great deal more on that same page (sometimes between the ellipses). Here are some missing portions of the same page (p. 106) in Hyam: "'After reading this analysis, it was clear to Atlee that everything depended on the reliability and spirit of the Indian Army: 'provided that they do their duty, armed insurrection in India would not be an insoluble problem. If, however, the Indian Army were to go the other way, the picture would be very different. Wavell warned that, commanding practically the whole of Hindu articulate opinion, Congress could undoubtedly bring about a most serious revolt against British rule, which Britain could probably still suppress, but it would mean nothing short of a campaign for the reconquest of India.'" Next paragraph: "'India could not, however, be ruled by the British alone, because the necessary number of officials simply did not exist, and collapsing British prestige left a nakedly expose situation. For example, Indian National Army trials had to be reduced after an explosion of opposition in Calcutta from November 1945. In the Central Provinces there were no troops, and only seventeen British ICS officials and only nineteen British police.  Given the state of public opinion both at home and in the world at large, a policy of martial law and repression was not really an option.  Moreover, British soldiers were war-weary, and would not want to remain in India in large numbers in order to hold the country down.  Thus, Wavell concluded, if the army and police 'failed' Britain would be forced to go.  In theory it might be possible to revive and reinforce the services, and rule India for another fifteen or twenty years, but: 'it is a fallacy to suppose that the solution lies in trying to maintain the status quo. We have no longer the resources, nor I think the necessary prestige and confidence in ourselves.' (p. 106, Hyam, Britain's Declining Empire: the road to decolonisation, CUP, 2007)."

This is a complex paragraph: it details a number of reasons: fear of a mass popular (even armed) revolt led by the Congress (which he notes Britain could probably suppress, but would create other problems);; uncertainty about the reliability of the Indian army in suppressing the revolt, not certainty about its unreliability especially in the form of an impending mutiny irrespective of the popular revolt; the war-weary British army which would not want to remain in India after the war. Similarly, the next page describes the actual cabinet deliberations: ""'After the failure of the Cabinet Mission, the Cabinet had some hard thinking to do. The main debates among ministers were in June and December 1946. Attlee thought the central problem was how to convince Indian politicians that the British really were going, and Indians must therefore hammer out a future for their country. The main worry of the Labour ministers was appearing to be weak, and to head of Churchillian jibes about 'scuttle'. They had a positive fixation about this. In the words of the Cabinet minutes: 'having regard to current difficulties in Palestine and Egypt, it was important, it was important to avoid any course which could be represented as a policy of 'scuttle'. This would provoke very strong reactions in this country and in the Dominions, and would have a most damaging effect on our international position.' It must not seem as if they were being forces out, but 'for economic, military, and political reasons like, we could not face a situation which involved committing British troops to a long series of operations in India'. Cripps took the view that neither repression nor scuttle were tenable propositions. Repression was beyond British resources, which scuttle would lead to chaos, causing general consternation in the Commonwealth. Bevin argued that any suggestion of 'abandoning our position in India without obtaining a solution' would be interpreted 'as evidence of a decline in British power and resolution', and would upset the Americans. If India broke down, Russia might step in and the seeds of a world conflict could be sown. But equally worrying was the conclusion of the Chiefs of Staff: to remain might permanently antagonize the Indians, which would militate against long-term British strategic requirements, the need for bases and airfields and access to industry and manpower of India in war. The reliability of Indian forces was now, they believed, seriously open to doubt, and to rely on them might mean being forced to withdraw ignominously.' (Ibid. pp 107-108)"

And here are Attlee's own final reasons. From Hyam p. 108. "In November 1946 Attlee set out with typical trechancy his reasons for rejecting this (Note (F&f): i.e. arguments for staying on in India frequently put forward by A. V. Alexander): '(a) In view of our commitments all over the world we have not the military force to hold India agst (sic) a widespread guerilla movement or to reconquer India. (b) If we had, public opinion especially in our Party would not stand for it. (c) It is very doubtful if we could keep the Indian troops loyal. It is doubtful if our own troops would be prepared to act. (d) We should have world opinion agst (sic) us and be placed in an impossible position at UNO. (e) We have not now the administrative machine to carry out such a policy either British or Indian'  The Cabinet on 10 December 1946 accepted much of his reasoning.  It was agreed that the Army could not be expected to prove a reliable instrument for maintaining public order in conditions which would be tantamount to civil war. One thing was quite certain, 'that we could not put the clock back and introduce a period of firm British rule'. Simply leaving Indians to resolve their own problems, probably in conditions of chaos, was equally unrealistic, if only because 'world opinion would regard it as a policy of scuttle unworthy of a great Power', and it would indeed be an inglorious end if Britain had not guaranteed fair treatment for Muslims and other minorities.' (p. 108)"

Attlee's reasons are complex: fear of popular revolt led by the Congress (as described in Wavell's memo), i.e. the guerilla movement he is talking about is not a by the rebellion in the army but by the Indian National Congress's increasingly restive youth wing, as in late 1942); uncertainty about the reliability of the Army both British and Indian; lack of administrative manpower in India; and world opinion. Moreover in a previous page, Hyam describes the economic reasons for not holding on to India.  And Hyam, in any case, is one historian.  Many others, like Low, Judith Brown, and Thomas and Barbara Metcalf give slightly different reasons.

I had summarized all this in one sentence a month or two ago, "Later that year, the Labour government in Britain, its exchequer exhausted by the recently concluded World War II, and conscious it had not the military means of controlling civil unrest in India, decided to ..." (or words to that effect) True, it didn't have all the reasons, but it highlighted the two most important reasons, and some of the other reasons were being discussed in other sections anyway. If you are going to add all the reasons, it will easily fill up a paragraph, but you can't make a special case for "reliability of Indian forces" unless you also explicate the other reasons and make sure that the unreliability of Indian forces was considered in terms of suppressing popular revolt, not unreliability in the form of mutinies on their own, irrespective of popular opinion. I have been repeatedly telling people that there is a daughter page, History of the British Raj, and to add the more complex arguments there; but that page remains mostly unedited. Everyone wants to add all their pet edits right here. It's funny: for British India, where the section in this page is small, people want to create a daughter page; however, for History, where this page is bursting at the seams, and where a daughter page exists, no one wants to write there. Go figure. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  15:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * But what you've just said about the influences in a complex situation (along with further quotations from Hyam) is exactly what I said in my above comments :). The further quotations you provide further reinforces that. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 16:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Great! Well, why don't we move the description of the complexity to the History of the British Raj page?  The history here will need to be summarized even more.  Regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would certainly be helpful to add Atlee's own reasons, in his own words, at the end of the article in the section. It would serve as a great concluding quote and summarize the complexity well. 67.169.0.250 (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * My reading of the quotes from Hyam (above, I haven't read the original source) is that whether or not the Indian forces were loyal, Hyam definitely points to the existence of a perception that it would be better not to test the loyalty of these forces and much of what he says above points to a fear that the Indian forces would not prove to be loyal and that the British forces were too small to quell insurrections on their own. Reading these extracts one would be forced to think that the fear of disloyalty amongst Indian forces (note that this is purely perceptual) was a factor in the timing of the decision to give up the Raj. Abstracting that into a manpower issue seems not quite right to me because the manpower issue is largely one of insufficient English forces and that is a recurring theme in British rule in India almost from the beginning of the Company days and not something that suddenly arose at the end of the Second World War (the English/Native troop ratio is brought up again and again by post-mutiny historians such as Kaye and Malleson). That said, I don't disagree that historians lay more emphasis on political factors than on a fear of disloyalty amongst the Indian troops (though that was a genuine fear and may have accelerated independence) but, nevertheless, the source appears to be at odds with the use of a general statement about 'manpower' fears. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 03:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with RegentsPark that "manpower" was not the best choice of words. I added "manpower" a few days when I noticed the exchange upstairs and realized that people were adamant about expanding the text, and that, consequently, more reasons needed to be detailed.  I actually used "manpower" to mean three things: (a) enough British soldiers, (b) enough loyal (reliable) Indian soldiers and (c) enough administrators; the original wording was simply: "Later that year, the Labour government in Britain, its exchequer exhausted by the recently concluded World War II, decided that ..."  To this someone added "military means of controlling civil unrest," etc. etc. Obviously, Wavell also says (and Attlee echoes) that they could control India if they had to, but it would mean the reconquest of India.  The larger point there is that the British government (at least the Labour government) was not like the French in Vietnam, or the Dutch in Indonesia, and did not want to continue a regime come what may.  When you don't mention these larger points, you give undue emphasis to the military or to the unreliability of the Indian Army.


 * Even in the context of the British in India, the uncertainty about the loyalty of Indian forces in the face of a popular revolt was a factor, but the popular revolt was the bigger factor (as Attlee memo says). (Incidentally, we don't say anything in that sentence about the popular revolt, so why are we getting so worked up over the reliability of the Indian Army?)  Many historians, for example Burt Stein in his History of India (see references in this page) have mentioned the popular revolt.  My point is that this is a short history, much shorter, for example than that devoted to the British Raj in a standard 300 page history of India from prehistoric times to the present.  Sure, in specialty histories, especially military histories, a lot might be made of the fear of disloyalty in the Indian Army in the face of a popular revolt, but our model is a standard history textbook, which has been vetted by peers against undue emphasis.  These standard histories of India might talk about the fear of popular revolt (as Stein does  in his History of India or Sumit Sarkar does in his more specialized, Modern India, devoted to post 1785 India), but not about the Indian Army.  That is why it is imperative that these edits should be made in the History of the British Raj page first, and even there care should be taken to not use specialty histories to make "specialty" points.  Hyam's book is a specialty book on decolonization, with an entire chapter of 70 pages, titled, "'British Imperialism is Dead': the Attlee government and the end of Empire, 1945-1951."  It is too specialized.  It is not the model for what we are trying to present here.  It doesn't mean we can't use it, just that we can't use it to make points of undue emphasis.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I missed a bit here. What you say above about the fear of the popular revolt is actually the trouble arose through red-fort trials, Bombay mutiny, masterfully exploited, whipped up, rekindled into a frenzy by the Congress during the election campaign which threatened this spectre to Auck. You remove the "fear of popular revolt", the context falls away and the Indian army loyalty issue seems out of place, and gives a rather incomplete picture (re: Fowler-"we dont mention one...") That is why I expanded the text (by one line) to include "restless" and then added the reliablity issue. As you show above, the reliabillity was a very prominent thought, which itself shows that it was there. The previous version did not mention this at all, which gives a very incomplete picture. I know Fowler is justifiably weary of people chipping in with whatever they may think belongs there. But this is important enough that a line or two deserves to be included. I dont think it will be deemed fair or balanced if and when this article goes for FAC, and trust me, it will get there ;). rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, no. It is not the Red Fort trials, but rather and earlier fear of popular revolt from the youth wing of the Congress Party, the Congress Socialists and the Indian Communists who had greatly increased their numbers during their war years.  These youths were mostly concentrated in UP and Bihar, and some bordering areas of Bengal, not in Calcutta (where most of the INA trials protests took place), or in Bombay (where the naval mutiny took place). That fear had haunted the British after the suppression of the Quit India Movement.  As I have said before, fear of Indian Army disloyalty was contingent on these popular revolts taking place.  The fear played a bigger role in Mountbatten's decision, in May 1947, to move the date of transfer of power forward to August 1947 from June 1948.  But by then things had hotted up more. Here, for example, is the text in Encyclopaedia Britannica on the suppression of Quit India Movement: "'In a few months at least 60,000 Indians filled British prison cells, and the raj unleashed massive force against Indian underground efforts to disrupt rail transport and to generally subvert the war effort that followed the crackdown on the Quit India campaign. Parts of the United Provinces, Bihar, the North-West Frontier, and Bengal were bombed and strafed by British pilots as the raj resolved to crush all Indian resistance and violent opposition as swiftly as possible. Many Indians were killed and wounded, but wartime resistance continued as more young Indians, women as well as men, were recruited into the Congress's underground.'"

And here is Britannica, a little later, about the Attlee government's decision: "'Two weeks after the Simla talks collapsed in midsummer, Churchill's government was voted out of power by the Labour Party's sweep of London's polls, and Prime Minister Clement Attlee appointed one of Gandhi's old admirers, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, to head the India Office. With the dawn of the atomic age in August and Japan's surrender, London's primary concern in India was how to find the political solution to the Hindu-Muslim conflict that would most expeditiously permit the British raj to withdraw its forces and to extricate as many of its assets as possible from what seemed to the Labour Party to have become more of an imperial burden and liability than any real advantage for Great Britain.'"

As you can see, Britannica considers the Labour party decision to be mainly economic: the Raj had become a burden. This is what I had hinted on in my original edit. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  14:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, my main point is really that these new edits and discussions should be taking place in the History of the British Raj page.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this debate may turn in the general direction of one we have had before:). I am sure you will find a number of authors, contemporary and modern (not least Stanley Wolpert and Sumit Sarkar, who you have quoted in the past, and Lawrence James and Bayly & Harper and others who I have) who will ascribe the "unrest" to the Red Fort trials and mutiny, which were whipped up by the Congress afterwards to threaten a revolt. And ina- related riots took place not just in Calcutta, but over a large parts of India. Britannica excerpt you provide is focussing, if I'm not much mistaken, on the period after April. The dissatisfactions that Congress explited were derived from simmering unrests that emerged over the preceding seven months. As a number of secondary works discussed above show, differing views on these exists. Without getting bogged down, these needs to be incorported into the text to give an accurate picture. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

New edits by user:Xn4
has revived the ghost of "colloquialism" with regards the title of this page. This has been the subject of countless discussions before. We need to remind ourselves that the page is about "Crown rule in India" between 1858 and 1947 and is a counterpoint to the page "Company rule in India." The consensus on this page has been to keep the title British Raj. The title may or may not be a considered a colloquialism any more (given that a number of textbooks and monographs by leading historians use the term), but, regardless, that fact is a minor etymological detail not worthy of mention in the lead, except as a footnote. The point of the lead is to provide information about the region and the rule and to do so in a manner that provides maximum necessary information without confusing a new reader with unnecessary details. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  18:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * user:Xn4 had changed the first sentence in the lead to: "... is an imprecise term which began in about the 1920s as a colloquialism for 'British India', and is primarily used to refer to the British rule in the Indian subcontinent between 1858 and 1947." There are many problems with this sentence.  The Raj was not a colloquialism for British India; the Raj primarily referred to the rule, and secondarily to the region and the period of dominion, whereas British India primarily referred to the region, and secondarily (as a collective noun) to the British in India, but never to the rule. Also, user:Xn4 is wide off the mark with his dates.  As OED itself records below, the term had been in use at least since 1857 (and actually before that); it was certainly not created "in about the 1920s," which, in any case is a vague characterization, not worthy of an encyclopedia's lead sentence.  Also, the term didn't "begin," but rather "began to be used."  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * With the benefit of the comments above, I'm inclined to agree with leaving 'colloquialism' out of the lead, and the much earlier uses of 'British raj' (with quite a wide variety of meanings) show that my source for 1920s was mistaken. however, I do think we should note frankly that the term is imprecise, and I've added a tag at one point.  Xn4  ( talk ) 01:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

New page for British India by user:Xn4
has also undone a redirect that has stood for over two years, viz British India-->British Raj. He has copied and pasted a few paragraphs from this page to create the new page. I have nothing against creating a separate page for British India, but again, this topic has been the subject of many discussions on this page, discussions that had begun long before I arrived on Wikipedia in October 2006. I feel a unilateral removal of the redirect is against the spirit of seeking consensus that has been the hallmark of this page. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  18:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I rather regret anyone setting out (as above) to personalize this matter, but I'm happy to say a few words here in response.
 * 1) The short page now at British India (which Fowler&fowler has contributed to in a constructive spirit, thank you for that) can't be described as "...copied and pasted a few paragraphs from this page", and its main aim at the moment is to define what 'British India' was and how it differed, as a geographical area, from '[British] Indian Empire'. It seems to me that it would be a category mistake to try to compare and contrast those terms (or areas) with British Raj.
 * 2) No doubt we can all agree that Wikipedia needs a British Raj page. If anyone should suggest that everything which is in general terms to do with several hundred years of the British in India should be loaded onto a page called British Raj, with other similar topics redirecting to it, then I'm more than sceptical of that idea. I sincerely doubt that 'British Raj' is correctly understood as a geographical area, but, in any event, such a gigantic subject as the British in India is sure to spread over a large number of pages, of which British India can (in my view) be a very useful one. To be frank, when making a start on articles to do with British India, such as Malik Umar Hayat Khan and the 125th Napier's Rifles, I've been a little taken aback by just how thin our coverage of the subcontinent still is. Xn4  ( talk ) 00:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've just noticed that the first post above was made not long after deleting the British India page by turning it into a redirect to here, which seems to me a bit aggressive, in all the circumstances. I don't know why this wasn't noted, when what was said includes "I have nothing against creating a separate page for British India". So with that support, I've reinstated the page, and no doubt any discussion on it below will be constructive. Xn4  ( talk ) 00:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Xn4, did you check the page archives linked at the top of his talk page? It seems like there was considerable discussion over the British India vs. British Raj naming convention. I haven't looked at it myself, but it may explain why Fowler&fowler feels that a consensus needs to be established first. I'll look into this matter when I have some free time tomorrow morning. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 01:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Nishkid. This question is really more subtle than the adversarial British India vs. British Raj debate. Vague though the meaning of British Raj has always been, the old arguments for renaming the present main article away from British Raj don't seem to me to be very much to the point here. Indeed, to move the article as it stands to some other title could be disruptive and insensitive. Supposing British Raj remains, with appropriate content, then that's fine by me. By the same token, British India (a geographical area subject to what is often called the British Raj) must surely justify some distinct coverage, and we can welcome what Fowler&fowler has said above, "I have nothing against creating a separate page for British India". The issue, then, seems to be what may be objected to or proposed for improvement in the content of British India, and deletion is a blunt instrument which takes us nowhere with that question. Xn4 ( talk ) 02:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "It can't be described as '... copied and pasted a few paragraphs from this page.'" It can't? What else is there, except for a shabbily written second section, titled "End of British India" in which I can spot at least a dozen errors of grammar and logic?  It begins with the remarkable sentence, "British India came to an end when the Indian Independence Act 1947 brought about the Partition of India, with effect from 15 August 1947, creating two fully independent ..." British India didn't come to an end, it was British rule in India came to an end, and, consequently, regions that were hitherto administered by the British Government, were no longer called "British India."  More importantly that second section has little relevant information about British India (if by that you mean the geography/region of the rule); it is mostly about why George VI stayed on as Emperor a little longer...??  That information, if it were important, would belong definitively to the British Raj page.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  02:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No one is saying that British Raj is the same as British India. Only that here are problems with the term British India.  1) It is ambiguous.  It was applied to regions of India governed by the British from 1765 to 1947. Those regions kept changing especially during the first half of the period British rule, i.e. Company rule in India.  In North-Central India, for example, "British India" in 1785 included only regions around Benaras; in 1812, it included the Ceded and Conquered Provinces, in 1835, the North-Western Provinces.  By 1856, all of what was to become United Provinces of Agra and Oudh was a part of "British India."  Which British India are we talking about?   And, if it is one of these four, what are we going to say there that has not already been said in the page: Company rule in India.  It is you who seems to be suggesting that British India is about regions governed by the British from 1858 to 1947.  No.  It encompasses a much bigger time period than that. 2) A British India page would not be about geography either; the geography is treated in the India page or Pakistan page or Bangladesh page or Geography of India page, Geography of Pakistan, or Geography of Bangladesh pages.  The page would be about how British India was governed (political, administrative, historical) or about how life was lived in British India (social, economic).  All those topics belong to the British Raj page or Company rule in India page.  British India, then, merely becomes a term to describe certain regions of the Raj, either the Company's or the United Kingdom's, which has been adequately described in the dab page British rule in India.  I don't see why that term needs a separate page.  But mainly all these things have been said here on this page by others (long before I arrived on Wikipedia).  Why should you get a special dispensation to undo a redirect that has stood for two years without seeking consensus?  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  02:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS I think I understand what the confusion might be about. As I have suggested before, British India should redirect to the dab page British rule in India.  That would be the correct thing to do.  From there people can access the relevant pages.  If there is consensus for a new redirect, we can make that change.  But creating a separate British India page, at this point, doesn't make sense to me (for reasons I have described above).   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  02:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I see Fowler&fowler has again redirected the British India page here, without saying so, despite his comment at the outset, "I have nothing against creating a separate page for British India". I just don't agree with the paragraph above, which in some ways is like saying we don't need a page for England because we have one for the British Royal Family. Perhaps F&f could explain what content he does wish to see in the British India page which he has nothing against creating ("I have nothing against creating a separate page for British India", see first para under this header)? Xn4 ( talk ) 02:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I wrote that after returning to Wikipedia from a three week long vacation this morning. After I reviewed the discussion and thought about it some more, I changed my mind.  There is no need for a British India page right now.
 * It needs to be pointed out too that the only reason why the topic is being discussed here is that I started the discussion. You undid the redirect on August 14.  Not a peep was heard about it on this discussion page until I brought it up today.  It is not like you made the change first and then brought it up for discussion.  You chose not to discuss it until your hand was forced.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  02:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, creating a page needs no consensus, as suggested. If any user wishes to propose a page for deletion or for merging, there are protocols for one or the other of those to be considered, bur no such process has been begun. Xn4 ( talk ) 02:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps British India should be redirected to British Raj? The content of British India could be found almost in its entirety from the aforementioned section in British Raj. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea. In fact it could have been done in early May 2008!  If there is an emerging consensus about Nishkid64's suggestion, we could move forward with it. Others please weigh in.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  15:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have implemented Nishkid64's suggestion (in part because new editors had begun to edit the "new" British India page). However, the redirect will probably be a little confusing to new readers.  When British India is redirected to British Raj, new readers  are presented with the context, and soon learn what British India is (second sentence of the lead); in the redirection to the section, the context is already assumed, and a new reader might find the text there too technical too soon (and will end up scrolling up).  Please try it out for yourself.  I guess I'm leaning towards either redirecting to British Raj (status quo version, if slightly inaccurate), or to British rule in India, more accurate, but also terse.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  16:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Xn4. He makes a fair point, "such a gigantic subject as the British in India is sure to spread over a large number of pages, of which British India can (in my view) be a very useful one." Also, I don't like Fowler's attitude that it's for him to decide on all such things. Let's have a discussion, not a lecture from Fowler. Strawless (talk) 16:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems to me, having read all the discussion, that there is a strong justification to have a separate British India page which is quite short and focuses on exactly what it was from 1765 to 1947. As it is, the British Raj article is long and full of detail (tables etc) that would better be pulled out into subsidiary articles. I just hate searching for something specific and being redirected into a 60k long article (or whatever). The fact that British India is all a bit complicated (and I bow my head to Fowler's exposition on the nuances of what happened to the definition between 1765 and 1856 which I found on another talk page: "Those regions kept changing especially during the first half of British rule, Company rule in India).  In North-Central India, for example, British India in 1785 included only regions around Benaras; in 1812, it included the Ceded and Conquered Provinces, in 1835, the North-Western Provinces.  By 1856, all of what was to become United Provinces of Agra and Oudh was a part of British India." reinforces the argument that the definition of British India (and its changes in all their complexities) should appear in a separate article and not clutter up the big picture (British Raj / Company rule articles). We should consider too, pulling out other detail (on the native states maybe?) into subsidiary articles as well. I agree with Fowler, however, that how British India was governed (political, administrative, historical) or about how life was lived in British India (social, economic), in other words what happened there, would more sensibly go in the Raj or Company rule articles. Stephen Kirragetalk - contribs 16:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What Stephen Kirrage says makes good sense to me. There's a long way to go with all this, and if everything is to be centralised at British Raj the article will get ever more top heavy. The native states are a very good suggestion for material to be separated out. Strawless (talk) 17:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, I really must protest about Fowler&fowler's action just now in deleting the contents of Talk:British India, redirecting it to Talk:British Raj. This kind of unilateral action is not appropriate while the matter is under discussion. So long as there's a page, it's entitled to have a talk page. Could all concerned please calm down and talk? Xn4  ( talk ) 17:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Since you seem to preface every act of riding roughshod over Wikipedia rules and etiquette with the remark, "With all due respect," let me do the same. With all due respect, you have created a page British India, explicitly ignoring the previous consensus on the page stated in , you copy and paste the section on British India (even in Nishkid64's estimation) to create a new page,  you then copy and paste my exchange with you on your talk page (or mine?) to create a new Talk:British India page, when the last edit there by admin Philip Baird Shearer explicitly says in its edit summary, "discussion centralised on Talk:British Raj).  What's your game plan, Xn4, with all due respect?  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have too much disagreement with user:Kirrages, except in one crucial detail. The British Raj article has been in the process of being expanded for the last six months.  Daughter articles (and concomitant modularity) are certainly the tradition in Wikipedia, but they are helpful only when the parent article has been developed.  As I've indicated above in posts of earlier this year, the British Raj article will temporarily be a little bulky, that is, until it has been clarified how much material is needed in each section.  If some sections end up being long, then summary style will obviously force our hand into creating daughter articles; but there is no need to do this before we get to that point.  If user:Xn4 has something new to add to British India (and so far he hasn't shown that he does), he should add it to the British India section.  If it is all relevant and begins to be bulky, it will clearly need a daughter article.  As it stands, new editors appear on this page, who all want to make a splash and change the lead.  No one it seems wants to do the hard work of writing small articles that together provide the material that would go into sections.  In the last couple of months, I have written a dozen articles on famines in British India: Chalisa famine, Doji bara famine, Agra famine of 1837–38, Orissa famine of 1866, Rajputana famine of 1869, Bihar famine of 1873–74, Great Famine of 1876–78, Indian famine of 1896–97, William Robert Cornish, and Timeline of major famines in India during British rule (1765 to 1947).  Along the way I had to create pages on Ceded and Conquered Provinces, Agra Province, and North-Western Provinces.  Daughter pages are being created: Famines Epidemics and Public Health in the British Raj, Provinces of British India, and History of the British Raj are some of them.  True, the native states section is bulky and there have been discussions in the past on how best to create the daughter article: as a list (one of which, an indiscriminate one, already exists) or a separate article (which also, sort of, already exists in Princely States).  For "British India," though, there is no evidence yet, that the section in the British Raj page has become bulky.


 * It is all well and good to say (as in Xn4 according to Strawless), "such a gigantic subject as the British in India is sure to spread over a large number of pages, of which British India can (in my view) be a very useful one." Equally, I can ask what have you added to this gigantic subject of British India in concrete terms?  When editors have added concrete and relevant text to the various aspects of the Raj, be it British India, Economy of India, or Famines, these premature arguments will become moot. In my experience, though, no one wants to do the dirty work.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»


 * We're asked "...what have you added to this gigantic subject of British India in concrete terms?" I have a sinking feeling that Fowler&fowler means "what have you added to the British Raj article"?
 * "...these premature arguments will become moot". I'm puzzled. What's premature? For reasons which aren't clear, one editor is fighting hard to strangle British India at birth, but seems also to be conceding that it will be needed in the future. The chance to do more with British India would be welcome, but with the repeated deletions which have been going on, its chances of development are hampered somewhat!
 * I can't help wondering, is this all about site footfall? I believe I noticed somewhere some boasting going on about the number of visitors to British Raj, and no doubt they would be reduced by the ending of the redirect from British India to British Raj... Xn4  ( talk ) 18:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is the comment by Fowler&fowler I was thinking of, and it's here: "The India page has been consistently in the top five accessed country pages for the last year and a half. The China article is nowhere in the picture, in part because no one wants to read that crap." Xn4  ( talk ) 18:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Again: British India already exists as section of the British Raj. There are daughter articles like Provinces of British India, with lists at least two dozen different provinces at various times.  What have you contributed to the subject of the geographical extent of British India in those pages? Many of those pages need to be cleaned up.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid you are increasingly making less and less sense. First you talk about boasting about the number of visitors to the British Raj; then you decide that it wasn't the British Raj, it was India, and  find some quote of mine somewhere about the India page, which is indeed one of the most visited country pages and is maintained at a high level by user:Nichalp, user:Ragib and others.  What does that have to do with the British Raj?  And who is boasting? I was trying to encourage an editor to not waste his time taking on editors on the China page about some minor disagreement.  I don't see that I have much to gain by this exchange any further.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sigh. Dipping my toe in again.....May I draw everybody's attention to Redirects for discussion which says
 * Just thought you'd like to know..... Stephen Kirragetalk - contribs 19:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The OED (on-line edition) has clarified its definition in view of the language of this page!
The OED on-line edition (draft revision of June 2008, requires subscription) has clarified its definition of "British Raj" in view of the language of this page's lead (and uses some of the language of the lead)! Here is the new definition: "'raj 2. spec: In full British Raj. Direct rule in India by the British (1858-1947); this period of dominion. Often with the. Also in extended use: any system of government in which power is restricted to a particular group. The British Raj was instituted in 1858, when, as a consequence of the Indian Rebellion of the previous year, the rule of the British East India Company was transferred to the Crown in the person of Queen Victoria (proclaimed Empress of India in 1876). In 1947 the British Indian Empire was partitioned into two sovereign dominion states, the Union of India (later the Republic of India) and the Dominion of Pakistan (later the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the People's Republic of Bangladesh) (cf. PARTITION n. 7c)."

Before the revision, it use to simply say: "b. spec. the British dominion or rule in the Indian sub-continent (before 1947). In full, British raj."

And here are OED's examples of usage with dates in boldface: "1857 Times 3 Aug. 5/6 We have just seen a translation of one of the most infamous articles against the British Raj, which we have seen published. 1879 Times 8 Dec. 9/3 The downfall of the British raj was only a matter of time. 1908 Daily Chron. 21 June 4/4 The Indian agitators who represent the British raj as the author of the plague. 1940 Times 10 July 3/6 The Congress demand for a National Government so-called really meant a Congress ‘Raj’. 1969 R. MILLAR Kut xv. 288 Sir Stanley Maude had taken command in Mesopotamia, displacing the raj of antique Indian Army commanders. 1971 Illustr. Weekly India 18 Apr. 4/2 Though it appears paradoxical, in the last days of the Raj, the British were the only people who wished to keep India united. 1987 N. SIBAL Yatra I. 6 Paramjit had written to her saying that the British were pulling out of India and that the Raj was coming to an end. 2006 Daily Mail (Nexis) 6 June 17 I've yet to hear him address the democratic deficit which subjugates the English to rule by a Scottish Raj."

Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  18:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

user:Xn4 is also incorrect about Raj being not used for region

 * Sigh. I didn't say that at all, please see below. Xn4  ( talk ) 17:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

user:Xn4 has also erred in stating the the expression "British Raj" is never used to refer to the region of the rule. Here is the link for the Google scholar search for the expression "in the British Raj": Google Scholar Search. Clearly there are many examples in which "in the British Raj" is meant in the sense of "in India under British rule," (and not in the sense of Raj as dominion or period) such as: directly out of the anti-colonial struggle in the British Raj" Gazetteers published for provinces in the British Raj), Atkinson's treatment ..." at Sandhurst, afterwards seeing active service in the First World War ..." raj''', the emphasis had always been on nationalism. The ..."
 * "The important case of Islamic economics was a consciously constructed effort arising
 * "... time" (1882: v). In keeping with the purpose of the Gazetteer (and indeed all such
 * "... Robert D’Arblay Gybbon-Monypenny, who had been born in the British Raj and educated
 * "... In contrast, '''during the independence struggle in the British

In other instances "Raj" is used in the second sense of British India, especially in its second meaning of "the British in India": Thus: Indians (called "wogs" for "worthy oriental gentleman") were excluded. ..." of a different race who, as a servant in the British Raj, occupies a ..."
 * "Koch and the Europeans were entertained at clubs in the British Raj from which native
 * "... prejudice and vindictiveness towards one's own race and, especially, toward someone

Raj is not just used in the sense of "dominion/rule," or the "period of dominion," but also refers to the region under the rule (i.e. British India) or the British in this region (i.e. secondary meaning of British India). The collection of the examples above are sufficient to establish that third use of Raj (for British India); although this usage is not as widespread, it is nevertheless to be found in the literature, as seen in the examples from the Google scholar link above. Meanwhile, will user:Xn4 care to provide five or six citations that describe the term "British Raj" as imprecise? You would think that the OED would state (this fact of imprecision) in its definition (see above). Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  04:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * We are all beating around the bush. Honestly, the differences are too subtle to really matter. Personally, irrespective of it being Company or Crown rule - I feel that the rule of the British in India is known as "British Raj" or quite simply, "The Raj" - this is the case in India at least. The geographical extent (which over a period of 190 years from Plassey to the Red Fort) waxed and waned is known as the British India. Are we all in agreement about this at least? A yes or no would suffice I think. TheBlueKnight (talk) 08:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a joinder per BlueKnights point about British raj including crown and company rule. I think former is more often refferred to as Company Raj. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 10:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with both user:TheBlueKnight and user:rueben_lys. "British Raj" has been used so as to include the period 1765 to 1858; indeed it has been used to include an even bigger period: witness C. A. Bayly's The Raj: India and the British 1600-1947 (1994).  Increasingly, however, the term Company Raj is being used for the period 1765 to 1947.  This is described in the dab page British rule in India.  Somewhere upstairs(?) I made a long list of usage (the last time there was a discussion on this topic).  The term "British India" is used not just to mean "geographical extent;" it is also used to mean "the British in India."  Thus, one could say "the cloistered life of British India" or "the summer sojourns of British India."


 * The problem is that every couple of months someone comes along and wants to reinvent the wheel with regards usage/scope of the title of this page. So, earlier this year, we were debating whether "British Raj" is a euphemism, then whether it is a colloquial term, then whether it is a racist term, then yesterday, it was back to "colloquialism," and today, the objection is that it is an imprecise term. For heaven's sakes the OED defines it (and now uses some of the Wikipedia's lead's language); sure it is an imprecise term, but so is the United Kingdom (disambiguation) and so is India (disambiguation), but that doesn't stop us from using those terms to mean India and the United Kingdom.  We don't say in the lead (indeed even in a footnote), "India is an imprecise term ..." as user:Xn4 insists on doing.  We simply provide a dab page.  Such a page exists in British rule in India.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS In keeping with the format of the United Kingdom and India pages, I have provided the dab page British rule in India at the top of both the British Raj page and the Company rule in India page. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Groan. I didn't say anything like ""British Raj" is never used to refer to the region of the rule." What I did do was to challenge the notion that "the British Raj" was correctly a geographical area. In engaging in discussion of this kind, it isn't helpful to misquote other people. Xn4  ( talk ) 17:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The references above are a response to your previously placed fact tag. The lead didn't say the British Raj was a geographical area, only that the term can be used to refer to the region of the rule. It is this you seemed to doubt with your insistence on the fact tag.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That, at least, is accurate. I challenged the use of 'British Raj' to mean a geographical area, and I still do, although I see you have removed the tag. To turn that challenge into "Xn4 has also erred in stating the the expression "British Raj" is never used to refer to the region of the rule" is entirely disingenuous.  Xn4  ( talk ) 18:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion about British India
Posted on Talk:British India by user:Xn4 (copied and pasted from user:Xn4's talk page. Copied here by  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC) per user:Nishkid64's suggestion here. 

Copied here from User talk:Xn4
I appreciate your edits to British India; however, the move (from the redirect to the British Raj) to an independent page will need to be discussed on the Talk:British Raj page first. There have been many discussions there on this very title, and, I'm guessing, the various discussants would like to be informed before such a move is attempted.

Meanwhile, I have corrected the lead sentence in British India; the term was used for British regions in India under Company rule as well. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  06:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS Please see dab page: British rule in India. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  06:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems you have an obsession with keeping everything to do with British India within an article called British Raj. I don't agree with you. 'British India' is both an authentic term which deserves to be defined at its own page and a topic which merits some coverage. "British Raj", on the other hand, is still a colloquialism, nowhere satisfactorily defined, except post facto on the basis of the uses it's put to, which are decidedly muddled. I certainly agree with you that 'British Raj' is not an exact equivalent for 'British India', a term which has real significance. In any event, the subject of the British in India is so vast that any attempt to force it into only one page would be contrary to policy. Xn4  ( talk ) 13:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Please hold on to your day job (whatever that is) and refrain from analyzing my obsessions. You might not agree with me, but it still doesn't give you the right to undo a redirect that has stood for at least two years. I'm not a big fan of British Raj myself (preferring Crown Rule in India instead), but the consensus on the Talk page has been to keep the British Raj title. But if you want to play hard ball, that's your prerogative. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Please also see OED on-line edition has clarified its definition of "British Raj" in view of the language of this page. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Before you wrote anything on this page, I'd seen some of your insulting edit summaries, such as "rv undiscussed and inaccurate copyedit by Xn4", and I notice others have complained about this abusive style on your talk page. If you're in the habit of handing out such 'plain speaking', then I'm afraid you need to learn to take it. You've linked above what you say is the OED online definition of 'British Raj': "Direct rule in India by the British (1858-1947); this period of dominion." That sounds authentic to me, and it's a meaning I'm happy to agree with, but it clearly doesn't include the meaning that 'British Raj' becomes the country itself, a geographical area. The idea (which you certainly seem to promote in your comments above, please tell me if I've misunderstood you) that 'British Raj' should replace 'British India', which ought to be a redirect to 'British Raj', is potty, and it would remain potty even if a thousand Wikipedia users agreed with it. Xn4 ( talk ) 23:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I was polite to you (see my first post above); it was you who chose to talk about my obsessions. That is a direct violation of Wikipedia policy. When I gave back to you in the style you were comfortable dishing out, you suddenly began to complain about my abuses. Okay. Whatever.


 * You might be happy to agree with OED's meaning, but that meaning itself has been changed in light of Wikipedia's lead; for example, as recently as May 2008, OED didn't have the "period of dominion," only the "rule." Now it does. That is a direct consequence of Wikipedia's language, which has remained the same for almost two years. The OED explication in smaller font is an even more direct use of Wikipedia's lead.


 * No one is saying that British Raj is the same as British India. Only that here are problems with the term British India. 1) It is ambiguous. It was applied to regions of India governed by the British from 1765 to 1947. Those regions kept changing especially during the first half of British rule, Company rule in India). In North-Central India, for example, British India in 1785 included only regions around Benaras; in 1812, it included the Ceded and Conquered Provinces, in 1835, the North-Western Provinces. By 1856, all of what was to become United Provinces of Agra and Oudh was a part of British India. Which British India are we talking about? And, if it is one of these four, what are we going to say there that is not already said in the page: Company rule in India. It is you who seems to be suggesting that British India is about regions governed by the British from 1858 to 1947. No. It encompasses a much bigger time period than that. 2) A British India page would not be about geography either; the geography is treated in the India page or Geography of India page. The page would be about how British India was governed (political, administrative, historical) or about how life was lived in British India (social, economic). All those topics belong to the British Raj page or Company rule in India page. British India, then, merely becomes a term to describe certain regions of the Raj, either the Company's or the United Kingdom's. I don't see why that term needs a separate page. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  04:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS There is nothing abusive about "rv undiscussed and inaccurate copy-edits." They were both undiscussed and inaccurate (the latter by your own admission that the term goes back farther than just the 1920s, as you had stated in that edit). Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  04:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised by your confrontational language. This should be a grown-up discussion of the relevant articles, and no more than that. Xn4  ( talk ) 15:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Without judgement on the merits of the need for different articles on British India and the British Raj, I'd like to point out that while there is a subtle difference between British Raj (India ruled by the British crown) and British India (the country that was ruled by the British), the difference seems slight (to me anyway). Somewhat akin to the difference between Mughal Empire and Mughal India (both of which point to the same article). At this point, subtle definitional issues aside, I find it hard to see any significant content difference between the two articles, assuming, of course, that these two separate articles existed. Perhaps xn4 could point to specific content differences, bearing in mind that wikipedia encourages the use of the commonly known name for an article (as opposed to formal or non-colloquial names) and discourages unnecessary forks. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 02:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * User:Fowler&amp;fowler left a message on my talk page some days ago, but I am on a short break at the moment, and not editing Wikipedia. User:Xn4 if you look back through the archive history of this article it has been proposed to move this article to British India several times, and that has been rejected. User:Xn4 please explain why it is a content fork and not a POV fork, and make up my mind when I return. If it is a POV fork (or a potential POV fork and not a content fork then the redirect should be re-established. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your question, Philip. Clearly, what's essential from both angles is a neutral point of view. British India is a historical reality, with both geographical and historical definitions, and the words 'British India' clearly can't be accused of creating POV problems any more than Italian Somaliland or French West Africa. As it happens, I suspect the words 'British Raj' could be accused of that, but I don't have a problem with there being an article on British Raj - indeed, we plainly need one - and I wouldn't wish to move its contents to British India, which is a different creature. However, as the British Raj article currently defines itself, it has an over-arching role, covering a much greater area than British India. In my view, the relationship of British India to British Raj should be something like the relationship of Dominion of Pakistan to Pakistan.  Xn4  ( talk ) 19:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "The relation of British India to the British Raj should be something like the relationship of Dominion of Pakistan to Pakistan"?? The Dominion of Pakistan was the formal name of a Dominion within the British Commonwealth that lasted from 1947 until 1956. Pakistan is the country that has existed from 1947, which from 1947 to 1956 was the same thing as the Dominion of Pakistan.  Just as, after 1956, Pakistan has been the same thing as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan (although a little smaller since 1971).  The situation of "British India" is completely different.  It is a term that after 1858 was used for regions in India that were administered by the Viceroy of India implementing the policies devised by the British Government India Office, in contrast to the princely states that were only indirectly administered.  India under the British Raj was never the same thing as British India.  Dominion of Pakistan, on the other hand, was just another, more formal, name for Pakistan between 1947 and 1956.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, my sainted aunt. I said something like, not exactly like. You might prefer to compare with the relationship of Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to Soviet Union, but in any event you go on making the case yourself, above. Xn4  ( talk ) 23:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Reply to original version of above post: Oh, my sainted aunt. I said something like, not exactly like. But you go on making the case yourself, above. Xn4  ( talk ) 23:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You use the term, Dominion of Pakistan, (and the analogy) incorrectly and then try to be flippant about it.  It is too wearying for you to answer user:RegentsPark's question.  However, it is no problem for you to cut and paste material from the British Raj page to the British India page.  Pray tell me: why do you have a list of the Governor-Generals and Viceroys in that page?  There already is a timeline in the British Raj page.  I thought your page was going to be about geography?  I'm afraid it is making less and less sense.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You still haven't answered user:RegentsPark's question: Could you "point to specific content differences, bearing in mind that wikipedia encourages the use of the commonly known name for an article (as opposed to formal or non-colloquial names) and discourages unnecessary forks"?    Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * British India plainly isn't an 'unnecessary fork' - see your own reasoning. I'm afraid it would be too wearying to list specific content differences, but some have developed and more will come. Xn4  ( talk ) 23:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What have developed? Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this allowed?
Is this allowed? I mean copying posts from user talk pages and then pasting them on article talk pages. Will someone look into this? Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  15:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In my view, if the material is relevant to the page, this is really the best place for it. If you have objections, do please explain them. Xn4  ( talk ) 15:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I dont see what at all is wrong with this. If I am anot much mistaken Fowler, both you and I have done so in the past, even in this page. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 22:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have? Created a new article talk page by cutting and pasting the contents of a user talk page? Where?  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No I meant pasting into any talk page by cutting from user talkpages, its a talk page, helps bring conversation together. That cant be against WP regulations. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

So long as the source for the copy and past is made clear (so one can validated the history) then people often copy user talk page conversations to article pages for further discussion and to encourage other users to participate. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 17:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Other Encyclopedias, Studies, Etc.

 * The OED defines the "British Raj" as stated above, but it has nothing for "British India" (attributively of course)
 * Encyclopedia Britannica has no page or sub-page for "British India." However, it has two long chapters (or subpages): (A) India#British imperial power, 1858–1947, which is clearly the same as this British Raj page, and (B) India#The extension of British power, 1760–1856, which is the same as Company rule in India. The only references to "British India" are in these pages: for example: (a) "In Great Britain the Liberal Party's electoral victory of 1906 marked the dawn of a new era of reforms for British India. Hampered though he was by the viceroy, Lord Minto, the new secretary of state ... (A)" (b) "The realization of supremacy in 1818 made urgent the problem of the organization of and determination of policy for British India (B)"
 * Encyclopedia Encarta has only a dab/definition page for "British India" whose entire contents are: "British India, collective designation of the 17 Indian provinces formerly under direct British administration, as distinguished from the more autonomous regions called the Native States of India." This is the same as the dab page British rule in India.  Everything else is in this history pages: India#British Expansion (same as Company rule in India), India#Sepoy Rebellion (same as Indian rebellion of 1857), India#Rise of Indian Nationalism (same as British Raj).
 * Library of Congress Country Study on India, has only two sections under "British Empire in India" these are: Company Rule 1757-1857 and British Raj 1858 to 1947.
 * The main point to remember is that all the successive British Governments from 1858 to 1947 talked about the provinces and the Native States, these together made up India. "British India" was just another collective name for the "Provinces"   There is already a page for that: Provinces of India.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  02:25, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If you want to change the name of the page Provinces of India to Provinces of British India, I'm happy to support you in that. But that is all the British India page can be.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  02:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

One article good but are two articles better?

 * Err - Fowler and Xn4 - may I know why does it matter so much to both you either way? TheBlueKnight (talk) 05:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It matters to me because this is an unnecessary content (and perhaps POV) fork. The term "British India" is the same as  the Provinces of British India as the Encarta link above shows, and that page already exists in Wikipedia.  Outside of that everything about British India, its central administration, it provincial administration, its history, economy is in the British Raj page.  If someone wants to show how these provinces changed over time, as user:Kirrages has indicated above, please do it in the Provinces of British India page.


 * There have been two or three unsuccessful attempts to change the name of this page (i.e. British Raj) to "British India." Even though in this latest incarnation, user:Xn4 claims that he not attempting to change the name, what he is attempting, if you examine the contents of the British India page is nothing but replication (executed, I might add, in the finest traditions of copying and pasting, mostly from the British Raj page).  How would you like it if every page in Wikipedia had a differently named twin page?  Moreover, as I have indicated above, the major encyclopedias and texts follow this same format.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  10:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * To add to f&f, unnecessary content forks are not a great idea because information is duplicated (redundancy), needs to be fact checked in two different places, and can result in wikipedia providing inconsistent information. It is not a question of British Raj and British India but rather an issue of the reliability of the encyclopedia. If we care about the encyclopedia, we should care about content forks (of course, pov forks are not even an issue!). That is why it is important that xn4 lay out clearly the content differences between British India and the British Raj. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 15:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

What to do about British India
It seems to me we have three options:
 * 1) Leave the new article as it is and have a British India article and British Raj article.
 * 2) delete the article and put back the redirect from British India to British Raj.
 * 3) Make the British India page a true disimbaguation by moving British rule in India to British India and add the disambig template. (or British India could be redirected to British rule in India, but I would not favour that as this problem could occur again).

I do not support the first option as it is confusing -- as demonstrated by [this edit] to the redirect British Indian Empire (why did you do it user:Xn4?). I am open to persuasion on the other two options. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The choice between options 2 and 3 depends if the term "British India" is used to describe British involvement in India before the Raj. This is something that should be demonstrated by the use of reliable sources. It would depend if the period of company rule is usually described as being part of "British India", or a forerunner of British India. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * My 2 cents. I don't like option 1 because most readers will have a hard time with the nuanced difference between British India and British Raj. Given that one goal of the encyclopedia is to present information in an accessible way, two articles are confusing. Equally, many editors will be also be confused and there will be a great deal of redundancy and some inconsistencies. Option 3 fudges the fact that the two terms are often confused with each other. I support Option 2. (Thanks for initiating a consensus seeking process!)--Regents Park (count the magpies) 19:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * British India isn't at all the same as British Raj, having a well established (indeed, statutory) and different meaning, so (1) is the rational option and need not confuse anyone. Clearly, the editors here at the British Raj talk page have a commitment to the article and name British Raj, and this page is the place to discuss improvements to British Raj.  Xn4  ( talk ) 21:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * (ec) The differences in meaning are perhaps clear to experts such as yourself but, for most readers, British India or British Raj both refer to the rule of India by the British. Even such things as the difference between self-administered native states and the areas directly under the control of the British are probably too nuanced for both readers as well as editors. One of the reasons for preferring fewer content forks on wikipedia is that the pedia is constantly being edited by users who may have only a rudimentary knowledge about the subject matter and there is no reasonable way to keep a constant watch and ensure that the right edits go to the right article (for example, if someone mistakenly adds information to British Raj that should rightly go to British India or the other way around). For this reason alone, it is preferable to have one article rather than two, with sub-articles handling the various devils that dwell in the details. That is the main reason why I think that a separate British India article is a mistake. And, that is why I think you should clearly give a content-based explanation for the two article approach. If there is sufficient content that can rightly go in British India but not in British Raj, then it would make sense to create a content fork. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 21:36, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There certainly isn't a problem about sufficient content. Although that won't all arrive suddenly, there are huge quantities of information which can be included in all appropriate articles, British India, British Raj, and others, and sooner or later it would be odd and eccentric to try to keep everything of what could be called a central or strategic nature on British India, the Princely States, the British Raj (a woolly term, but usefully elastic) and so forth here at British Raj. Just as Burma and Aden justify their own articles, so does British India.
 * Philip Baird Shearer asks above about "British India" being used to describe "British involvement in India before the Raj". Someone may be able to suggest when "the Raj" began? I don't have the answer to that, but I should say that the statutory meaning of British India begins in 1858 and ends in 1947. Any other meaning is an informal one, and the earlier period is best covered by our article Company rule in India. I would suggest that British India should be clearly about the statutory meaning. Xn4  ( talk ) 22:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * But isn't that (the 1858-1947 period) the same for British Raj as well as British India? That is, I think, the crux of the differences that you're having with f&f. If both articles refer to the same period and to essentially the same thing (British rule over India), why are two articles necessary? --Regents Park (count the magpies) 22:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't say whether the period of the 'British Raj' is clearly defined (and the current lead of British Raj says it "primarily refers to" 1858 to 1947) but British Raj and British India aren't the same. The issue can be compared to the intertwining of England, England and Wales, Great Britain, and United Kingdom, or of Russia, Russian Empire, Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic and Soviet Union. I don't think anyone would suggest that any of those should be redirects. Xn4  ( talk ) 23:02, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * My preferences are (in decreasing order): 2), 3), 1), for some of the same reasons that Philip Baird Shearer and RegentsPark have already given. (I will look into Philip's question about British India before 1858, i.e. indication of official use of the term.)   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  22:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (Reply to user:Xn4 insertion of post out of time order): No, "British India" as the Encyclopedia Encarta page British India says (in its entirety), is a "collective designation of the 17 Indian provinces formerly under direct British administration, as distinguished from the more autonomous regions called the Native States of India." Wikipedia already has a page Provinces of British India. I'm happy to expand the lead and, in particular, copy the British Parliament's definition that I had originally added to the British Raj page.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I shudder at the thought of the consequences of sticking as much as possible into one article to avoid "content forks"! This is the nature of historical subjects in Wikipedia: the article on a huge subject invariably (and in my view correctly) ends up as a summary article (in this case I suggest the Raj article) with many section headings pointing to subsidiary articles containing detail (with perhaps an associated navigation box to help readers find their way around and drill down). The top article should give the reader a broad sweep through the subject, whetting the appetite of the reader to drill down. The existence of the subsidiary articles makes it easier for readers doing a search to zero in on the specific topic they are looking for. There will always be overlaps but these can be minimised by careful choice of structure of the articles and experience shows that as the various component articles stabilise, they converge rather than diverge (referring to RP's worry - I appear to have more trust in the good sense of the non-expert editor than he does....maybe because I am that editor!). I base this view with particular reference to the development over time of such articles as Western Desert Campaign and Italian Campaign (World War II) and their sub-articles  The need for a British India article stands for the reasons I gave on 20 August in the "New page for British India by user:Xn4" section above i.e. showing the development of the meaning of "British India" from 1765 to 1947. This is reinforced in my view by RegentsPark's comment that "...The differences in meaning are perhaps clear to experts such as yourself but, for most readers, British India or British Raj both refer to the rule of India by the British. Even such things as the difference between self-administered native states and the areas directly under the control of the British are probably too nuanced for both readers as well as editors." That's exactly what an encyclopaedia is for, it's not a comic! This subject is complex and the nuances are important and should be addressed without cluttering up the main summary article. Otherwise we're just re-writing history to produce "Raj for Dummies". By the way, I think putting British India into Provinces of British India is if anything, back to front.  Hope this doesn't sound too aggressive, it's trying to be the voice of reason but it's late, I'm tired and I'm off to bed! RegardsStephen Kirragetalk - contribs 00:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * An encyclopedia is for organizing information and presenting it in a consistent and accessible manner. Duplicating content is not the way to do that and nuances are best explained in one place rather than in separate articles, how else would the reader see the nuanced difference? Creating content forks for purely definitional reasons is not something that wikipedia does (it is not a dictionary!). --Regents Park (count the magpies) 13:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of 2 separate pages - tho I think that in everyday use the names are used interchangeably in India and probably in Britain too. TheBlueKnight (talk) 06:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

section break 1
Stephen Kirrage Wikipedia is not a dictionary articles should describe persons, things and events, not the derivation of words. So there is no justification in having an article to describe as you put it a "New page for British India by user:Xn4" section above i.e. showing the development of the meaning of "British India" from 1765 to 1947. What matter is what the word is used to describe today. It seems to me TheBlueKnight that option three would be your best compromise, as surly you agree that two pages containing the same information will lead to problems. My two earlier questions do not seem to have been answered:
 * 1) user:Xn4 why did you redirect British Indian Empire to British India?
 * 2) When "British India" is used in reliable sources, what is the term used to describe in the majority of sources? Is it a synonym for "British Raj" or is it a term used to encompass the period of East India Company rule as well as the Raj?

--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh come on. That's just playing with words and avoids addressing the points I made on article structure for the topic. Anyway, take out the word "meaning" from my original statement and my comment stands. After all British India was a real legal entity (the Raj was just a concept) and calls for an article plotting its development with high level reference to the historical events driving its development. The events themselves should be described in the Raj article (because they generally relate to more than just British India) and where appropriate, should have their own detailed subsidiary articles. Your point 2 above underlines the confusion of use of the term British India. It's not for us to decide which to use. By all means decide on a consistent usage within Wikipedia based on "majority usage" but the different reality and usages over time need to be identified in the British India article in order to help readers with this confusion which they will come across in the public space. One of the difficulties we have is that in common usage today British India is more commonly used in the UK than British Raj, but I suspect this is not the case in, for instance, India. Stephen Kirragetalk - contribs 11:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It was not a legal entity. And the term had long been in use: witness, James Stuart Mill's six volume History of British India published in 1820.  The term was used (as I have indicated above) as a collective name for the Provinces of British India.  In the Imperial Gazetteer of India, where I came upon the British Parliament definition (which I then added to the article), it occurs in the volume that describes the administration of India.  The first few chapters are: Government of India, Provinces, Native States, ...  It is in the chapter on Native States that this definition is quoted, mainly as a means of distinguishing "sovereignty" and "suzerainty."   Her Majesty had the former over British India, only the latter over the Native States.  The British Parliament defined "British India" so that the term could be used unambiguously (in future documents and communication) to describe the areas of sovereignty; they didn't create a new country (or even a political subunit) as a result of offering this definition.  The subunits remained the Provinces of India or the Native States.  The definition, by the way, was offered in 1889, thirty years after the Crown took over direct administration of India.  The passports issued to Indians (whether from British India or the Native States) only said "India" (or the "Indian Empire" after 1876), never "British India."  I'm happy to produce a copy of a passport if you'd like.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Stephen Kirrage if we take out the word meaning then we have "New page for British India by user:Xn4" section above i.e. showing the development of the meaning of "British India" from 1765 to 1947., then we need sources that the common usage of the name is for the period 1765 to 1947 and not that of the British Raj article. The reason I emphasise common usage is because of the words in the Naming Conventions policy see sections "Use the most easily recognized name" and "Use common names of persons and things". So although "It's not for us to decide which to use." we are policy bound to decide what is used in reliable sources and follow that in the naming of an article and redirects to that primary name. This is what the WP:RM requests were all about. That is why I asked: (2) When "British India" is used in reliable sources, what is the term used to describe in the majority of sources? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS to my post above. The passports (at least in the 20th century) all said, "British Indian Passport" up top, and "Indian Empire" at the bottom, irrespective of whether the holder was from a Native State or a Province.  Besides these differences didn't have that much meaning in terms of Indians deciding where to move to and where to live.  There was no border check post to stop someone when they moved from a Native State to a Province.  Mohandas Gandhi, for example, was born in a Native State in the Kathiawar Agency, but his passport was the same document (except for the personal details) as that of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, who was born in Sind, a region within the Bombay Presidency.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Reliable sources. You can be sure that any such source before 1947 (and probably later into the 1950s) would only refer to British India in its narrow sense, otherwise it was India and Indian Empire (not even British Indian Empire - what other Indian Empire was there?!). More recent sources use British India to distinguish between the pre and post 1947 sub-continent. Anyway, too much information. Too much discussion at cross purposes. Too many cooks. I'm bored with trying to grasp this slippery eel of a subject and being misunderstood so have decided to withdraw. I'll be back in two years to see how you've got on. There's plenty other stuff to be getting on with in the meantime! Who knows? You may have migrated in my direction by then!! Stephen Kirragetalk - contribs 14:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither user:Kirrages nor user:Xn4 has yet made the case that British India needs to be a substantial independent page (i.e. more than a dab page (as in Encarta) or a refurbished Provinces of British India page in Wikipedia). They haven't either, thus far, explained what significant content differences they expect between British India and British Raj.  user:Xn4 has consistently avoided any such formulations; user:Kirrages hasn't, but his formulation&mdash;describing the expanding geographical extent of British India at different times&mdash;is essentially about the Provinces of British India, and there is no reason why the changing shape of the Provinces can't be a part of the Provinces of British India page.
 * I was tired last night and wasn't thinking clearly, but my first preference would be for "British India" to be a true dab page (Philip's option 3). The reason for this is that the term "British India" was and still is used to describe the three presidencies before 1858 and it was certainly used during that period as well.
 * Here is a list of publications between 1600 and 1857 that used the term "British India": References to "British India" before 1858
 * Among the scholarly publications published between 1970 and 1990, many use "British India" for regions administered by the EIC before 1858. Here are the results of that Google Scholar Search.  Among the first 50 publications, I counted at least 13 that used "British India" for the pre-1857 period (i.e. 26%).  (For example, some titles were: Strategies of British India: Britain, Iran, and Afghanistan, 1798-1850 (published 1984), Mad Tales from the Raj: The European Insane in British India, 1800-1858 (published 1990), The Last Empire: Photography in British India, 1855-1911 (published 1976), Afghanistan and British India, 1793-1907: A Study in Foreign Relations (published 1972))
 * Among scholarly publications published between 1990 and 2008, many continue to use "British India" to include Company Rule. (For example:  Mapping an Empire: The Geographical Construction of British India, 1765-1843 (published 1997); Poor Relations: The Making of a Eurasian Community in British India, 1773-1833 (published 1996); Idioms of Madness and Colonial Boundaries: The Case of the European and “Native” Mentally Ill in Early Nineteenth-Century British India (published 1997); Karl Marx, Eurocentrism, and the 1857 Revolt in British India (published 2002); British India & British Scotland, 1780-1830: Career Building, Empire Building, and a Scottish School (published 2001); Patrons and Philistines: Arts and the State in British India, 1773-1947 (published 1995); Unequal Contenders, Uneven Ground: Medical Encounters in British India, 1820–1920 (published 1995), ...)


 * Clearly, then, the use of "British India" to refer to the pre-1858 period as well is not statistically inconsequential.  Among the people who use it that manner are some of the better-known historians, for example Christopher Bayly in Empire of Information (describes the pre-mutiny United Provinces).  I believe therefore British India should be a true dab page, but nothing more.  Text about British India should be in the British Raj page or Provinces of British India page, but not in an independent British India page.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»

section break 2

 * User:Fowler&amp;fowler I think you are missing my point. It does not matter what was used in the past. For example there was no need to call the "Civil War" (or the "Great Rebellion") the "English Civil War" until the Americans had one and English speakers had to differentiate between them. What we need is a feeling for what the current generation (last 25 years?) of English language scholarly articles, popular histories and general reference works mean when they use the term "British India" is it a synonym for "British Raj" or is it a term used to encompass the period of East India Company rule as well as the Raj? It would seem that if we use only 1990-2008 there is a case for a dab page. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the confusion. I was trying to answer various people all at once.  The pre-1858 publications were included to to respond to someone(?) who had said the term, "British India," was not used formally until after 1858.  In fact the term was used legally as early as 1770: The Statutes: From the Twentieth Year of King Henry the Third to the ... by Robert Harry Drayton, Statutes of the Realm - Law - 1770 Page 211 (3) "Save as otherwise expressly provided in this Act, the law of British India and of the several parts thereof existing immediately before the appointed ..."
 * Yes, among publications of the last 25 years, there is plenty of evidence of continued usage of "British India" to include the period of Company rule in India. I will provide further evidence of this in a few minutes.  I have to run now.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, here is the evidence:
 * (Scholarly articles or books 1983-2008):
 * Mapping an Empire: The Geographical Construction of British India, 1765-1843 (Book, published 1997).
 * Poor Relations: The Making of a Eurasian Community in British India, 1773-1833 (Book, published 1996).
 * "Idioms of Madness and Colonial Boundaries: The Case of the European and “Native” Mentally Ill in Early Nineteenth-Century British India" (Journal article, 1997)
 *  Mad Tales from the Raj: The European Insane in British India, 1800-1858 (Book, published 1990)
 * "Imperial Environmentalism or Environmental Imperialism? European Forestry, Colonial Foresters, and the Agendas of Forest Management in British India, 1800-1900" (Journal article, published 1998)
 * British India and British Scotland, 1780 to 1830: Career Building, Empire Building and a Scottish School of Thought on Indian Governance (Book published 2001)
 * Patrons and Philistines: Arts and the State in British India, 1773-1947 (Book published 1995)
 * And these are just some of the publications that have both "British India" and the time period in their titles; there are plenty more (as can be readily observed) that use the term "British India" somewhere in the text and refer to the Company years.


 * What about newspapers? Well, there is evidence of use of the term "British India" to refer to the eighteenth century. Here are the results of Google News Advanced Archive Search:  See Results among newspaper articles published between 1983 and 2008
 * And books? Here too there are plenty of examples. See Google Books Advanced Book Search for books published between 1983 and 2008.  For example: Civility and Empire: Literature and Culture in British India, 1822-1922, by Anindyo Roy, Routledge, 2005, ISBN 0415304350.
 * That's why my first preference, as I indicated above, is for British India to be a true dab page.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The grown-up option as outlined by Philip B. S. above is Option 1, because the case clearly has been made, not least by the improving British India article itself, that a discrete article on that subject is worth having. British India is clearly an important topic within the history of India, and it is not the same as British Raj as defined here, so sooner or later it will need a lot more space than it can have as a subdivision of an article on British Raj. It will also need new sections which can be addressed homogeneously under the title of British India but which would get enormously complicated if they had to be dealt with at a higher level including all the princely states, which were not under British control and had their own systems of government, law, tax, etc. It may be that some editors here are wanting to fight old battles which I gather are to do with whether the much better-established British Raj article should be renamed "British India", but that isn't the question now, and it can even be pointed out that the existence of a British India article seems to be showing how wrong some users have been in the past in wanting to move everything at British Raj to the title "British India" - we can now see clearly that that would have been the wrong title for an article which aims to cover the whole of India. Strawless (talk) 18:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? The grown up option? And the British India article has been improved? Why, then, does it remain at the level of a hurriedly written junior high-school history homework, full of bizarre sections like "End of British India." I think it is high time we ended this endless discussion. Move it back to the British Raj redirect, or to an independent dab page, or to the Provinces of British India.     Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Bizarre sections like "End of British India"" ??? Last I checked, it ended - ahem - a while back - so how is it bizarre? Just to point out - I prefer Option 1 - Two separate pages though I believe there will be quite a bit of repetitive material - but I think the wikipedia servers can handle it. TheBlueKnight (talk) 23:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It is bizarre because it wasn't British India that ended, but British rule that ended, and consequently, the regions, viz the Provinces, that had hitherto been collectively called British India were no longer called that. Again, "British India" is simply a term; it simply stopped being used in 1947 to describe something current.  It became a term of history.  The end of British rule, on the other hand, belongs to the British Raj page, not British India page.  The bogus section "End of British India" is a attempt to give the page "British India" political and administrative content, which, it has already been agreed, belongs to the British Raj page.  It has nothing to do with whether servers can handle the content; it's simply that the content is bogus.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A lot of repetitive material makes little sense in wikipedia. If sections were organized as single hypertext/media documents (where changes in one section would instantaneously be reflected in the multiple documents that include the section), then repetition would not be a problem. However, that is not the case in wikipedia and "quite a bit of repetitive material" is the best reason to avoid content forks. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 00:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It may actually be better to have multiple articles reflecting different viewpoints. Such viewpoint articles could then be tied together through a meta article or outline. At least, that's the direction it appears things seem to be moving here. Surely we don't expect wikipedia to resolve such real world differences in viewpoints? Off course, if there is not much difference in content then why have two articles 67.169.0.250 (talk) 03:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Against policy see WP:POVFORK --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Surely one can't keep out political or administrative content from the "British India" article given that both of these are important cogs in the British India wheel. If the region was no longer called "British India" - then it ceased to exist - i.e. it ended - hence "The End of British India". If there is a need to segregate the end of the rule and the end of the region being ruled - then so be it. It is kind of like saying "End of Soviet Union" is bogus because Soviet rule ended - well - the Soviet Union ceased to exist too - hence "End of the Soviet Union" - conversely if "end" is not the correct word - I guess one can use the word "Dissolution of British India". Thanks. TheBlueKnight (talk) 11:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If "political and administrative content" belongs to a British India page as well, what content differences do you foresee between the British Raj page and a British India page? Be mindful that The Oxford English Dictionary (as I have indicated in the section above) on-line edition (draft revision of June 2008, requires subscription) has clarified its definition of "British Raj" in view of the language of this page's lead.  Here is the new definition: "'raj 2. spec: In full British Raj. Direct rule in India by the British (1858-1947); this period of dominion. Often with the. Also in extended use: any system of government in which power is restricted to a particular group.'"
 * What does that mean? It means that the "rule" (which includes political and administrative content) properly belongs to the British Raj page, per authority of the OED.  Be mindful also that the Encyclopedia Britannica has no "British India" page, but it does have a "British Raj" page (British Imperial Power, 1858-1947).  Finally, please note that although Encarta Encyclopedia does have a "British India" page, this page is not the kind of page user:Xn4 or you are envisaging; it a dab/definition page, whose entire contents are: "'British India, collective designation of the 17 Indian provinces formerly under direct British administration, as distinguished from the more autonomous regions called the Native States of India.'"
 * Wny do you think Encarta too has chosen to add the administrative and political content to its versions of the "Company rule in India" and "British Raj" pages, not to this British India page? The reason is that "British India" was a convenient short-hand term employed to collectively distinguish the Provinces of British India from the Native States, it was not a political entity in of itself. The Central government of India during the years 1858 and 1947, over which the Viceroy presided, was not called the "Government of British India," but rather, simply, the "Government of India."  The British were always careful about not even appearing to relinquish their indirect control over the Native States (exercised by the vigilant ever-present British "resident" in the states.)  They wanted, by the use of "Government of India," the Native States to be constantly aware of their power.  For this reason, officially there was "India", the "Provinces", and the "Native States."  The provincial governments were referred to individually as the "Government of Bombay (Presidency)" or the "Government of the United Provinces," etc.   Again, "British India" was not an official entity, but a term employed to differentiate different regions of India during British Rule.  Those regions didn't end (in fact the Provinces continued to have the same names in India during the period 1947 to 1951, and for much longer in Pakistan), but their political and administrative mechanisms changed; those, as has been noted above, belong to the British Raj page.


 * The bottom line, as I have indicated to user:Xn4, user:Kirrages, user:Strawless, and now to you, please indicate what differences you envisage between a "British India" page and the "British Raj" page, between a "British India" page and the Provinces of British India page, and between a "British India" page and the British rule in India page (a dab page).  In other words, how is this hypothetical "British India" page going to be different from these three currently existing Wikipedia pages?  To date, no one has been forthcoming.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS. My own person preference now, in light of the evidence I have added in reply to PBS above, is for the "British India" page to be a true dab page with a dab template.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Dab page for British India
I've created a dab page for "British India" on my subpage: User:Fowler&fowler/British India and included references there. Here is the text (but without the references):

British India, may refer to:
 * regions under Company rule in India (ending 1858) and governed by the British East India Company's representative, the Governor-General of India.  The regions consisted of: Bengal Presidency, the Madras Presidency, and the Bombay Presidency.
 * regions under the British Raj in India (1858 to 1947) that were directly administered by the British Government India Office and by the Viceroy and Governor-General of India in the name of the British Crown. The regions consisted of the Provinces of British India and contrasted with the Native States over which the Crown only had suzerainty.

"British India" has also been used in the sense of "the British in India."

Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  17:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

POV-pushing or Vandalism?
I have been patient with user:Xn4, putting up with his unencyclopedic edits to British India, while at the same time trying to come to some kind of decision on this talk page. However, he has been systematically changing links (from British Raj to his new British India) on different Wikipedia  pages. Most of these changes are plain incorrect even by his definition. He has also been spamming different people's talk pages, many of whom have then added their comments here. Here are some of the edits diffs:
 * India Office. Incorrect edit. India Office not only governed British India, but also indirectly ruled the Native States, for example, supervised the "residents" responsible for watching over the Native States.
 * It did indeed supervise the residents, but it did not rule the princely states. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:25, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Whose army defended these Native States? Their own? Who controlled the Foreign Affairs and Communications in these Native States?  Care to enlighten us?   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  21:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * On an isloated note, the native states, especially the larger ones, had state forces, which in fact contributed to both the world wars. The Native states were idnependent signatories at the treaty of Versailles, weren't they? rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 23:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No. India, as a member of the league of nations, was a signatory. (The native states were not direct signatories because they were considered a part of India.)

--Regents Park (count the magpies) 17:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delhi. Again incorrect.  Calcutta was not just the capital of British India, but also of the Indian Empire.
 * That's quite a complicated edit, which I stand by. Calcutta became the capital of British India and also of the Indian Empire. An addition to say so would be agreed. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Afghanistan Again incorrect. The treaties were with the British Raj not with British India the Native States of India were also bound by those treaties.
 * We should need to look at the treaties one by one to get this entirely correct, but the 'British Raj' was never a party to any treaty. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Really?? Care to find me a treaty that the Native States were free to abrogate?  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  21:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Afghan foreign affairs etc till 1919 were the delegation of "Britain" as far as I am aware, the prime responsibillity for communicating which rested with the viceroy of India. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 23:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I can only repeat that the 'British Raj' was never a party to any treaty. "Care to find me a treaty that the Native States were free to abrogate?" - The fact that the British government had charge of the external affairs of the native states didn't make them parties to such treaties (indeed, they had no power in international law to enter into any such treaties). Even if it had, that wouldn't have meant that the 'British Raj' was ipso facto such a party. Xn4  ( talk ) 22:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Treaties were signed by India and the native states were assumed to be a part of India with no foreign policy or military authority of their own. As such, there was no independent state called "Patiala" or "Jodhpur" that was recognized by any international body as being independent. For example, they were not separately included in the League of Nations (cf. Regents Park (count the magpies) 17:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Order of the Star of India. This is the most ridiculous!  Indian Empire is linked to British India!!  After user:Xn4's edit, the article said that the order was the "senior order of chivalry associated with British India" And guess who's picture is displayed on that page?  The Maharajah of Patiala, the ruler of a Native State!!!
 * As our discussion has developed, I agree with you, and the reference does need to be to the Indian Empire. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:32, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ajaigarh As a result of user:Xn4's edit, Ajaigarh has become a princely state in British India!!!!
 * Bombay Sapphire Most ridiculous!  I'm sure the gin was popular among the princes as well!
 * Actually, I think simply "in India" would be better. My problem with "in the British Raj" is that it isn't really a geographical area. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Clement Attlee user:Xn4 has changed the sentence to: "set up to examine the possibility of granting self-rule to British India."  The British granted independence to all of India including the Princely States; it wasn't just British India!!!
 * Sigh. The princely states already had self-government. 'self-rule' is not the same as independence. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So, were these Princely States free to remain self-governing after the British left??  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  21:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A note to say, this I am fairly vertain they were. They were given the choice of acceding to India or Oakistan or remain independent. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 23:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, indeed they were. The fact that both new dominions, Pakistan and India, set out to take away that freedom, did not change the fact that the British intended them to continue as self-governing states and to have the choice of remaining outside the new dominions, if they so chose. Nor, of course, did it change the past. Xn4  ( talk ) 22:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There are many many more edits like this. They would be funny to read, if they weren't a royal pain in the behind to correct.

Moreover, the edits have been made in bad faith. user:Xn4 made it a point to stress geographical content in the British India page (see his posts in the talk page above; see his posts on user talk:Philip Baird Shearer. After all this, what is he doing blatantly changing British Raj to British India, even when the result is incorrect or meaningless or nothing to do with geography??
 * None of my edits are in bad faith. No doubt I make mistakes, as we all do, and I'm happy to have them pointed out and corrected when I do, but I should be grateful for a courteous debate on this page. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

In addition he has been spamming various talk pages. See for example: the posts of August 28. Some of the recipients have made comments here (usually in support of user:Xn4's goals).
 * This is a very odd complaint. I don't agree with the word 'spamming', as it's a valid action to draw other users' attention to a discussion they may be interested in. Oddest of all, I notice Fowler&fowler has done exactly the same - with no complaint from anyone, certainly not from me. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I have had it with user:Xn4's edits. I will not allow this abuse of NPOV be carried on any more. I am therefore moving British India to the dab page above. If it is not acceptable, I will be happy to redirect it back to British Raj. However, I will not allow an independent British India page, especially in the light of user:Xn4's vandalism on other pages. If need be, I'm happy to go for a full-blown Wikipedia mediation on this topic with user:Xn4, or any of his cohorts and supporters, should they choose to join him. I am confident I have the sources on my side. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  19:56, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * British India has now been moved to British India (disambiguation). I'm sorry but I will not put up any more with these incorrect unencyclopedic edits that border on POV-pushing.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not agree at all that British Raj should be changed to British India, nor do I agree with the above. British India is only part of a wider picture, and I find the anxiety to remove the article bewildering. I have reinstated it and will continue to do so. Xn4  ( talk ) 20:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * User:Xn4 you have made the point that British India can mean more than just British Raj, this is a position thay has been accepted by other editors -- as it can be sourced in secondary sources -- and I think there is a new consensus that agree with you on this point. However you have not given a coherent reason why you think British India should be more than a disambiguation page. Please explain why you think that duplication rather than disambiguation is desirable in this area, and also please -- as an act of good faith -- answer my question that I have now put to you twice and which you have not answered" why did you redirect British Indian Empire to British India?" --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 20:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the above. I don't think I would say British India can mean more than British Raj. It's subsidiary to what we have at British Raj, and I'm certainly not in favour of duplication. I'm sorry I didn't answer your question before. That was a mistaken edit, and I stand corrected. I've redirected British Indian Empire to British Raj, which is more appropriate. Xn4  ( talk ) 21:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * User:Xn4, thank you for the revert. If British India does not mean more that British Raj and you are not in favour of duplication then please remove the text and make it a redirect to British Raj. However I am surprised that you are now saying that as you included in your creation of the British India article in the lead of the article the sentence "The term has also been used less formally for the holdings in India of the Honourable East India Company in the period up to 1857, but that period is dealt with in Company rule in India". I would have thought that you would prefer the disambiguation page option. I leave it to you to pick between the two as there is no consensus for the page you have constructed and it seems a wast of time for everyone involved to take this further. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 21:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * A couple points as an outsider without agreeing to either viewpoint - of Fowler or or of xn4. 1. Yes, the native states had their own armed forces - case in point being Hyderabad, Kashmir. 2. At independence - the native states had a provision that allowed them to accede to either of the new dominions viz. India or Pakistan or choose to remain independent - hence the introduction of privy purses by Sardar Patel who assured the princes that they could maintain their lifestyles after acceding - states like Junagadh, Hyderabad refused to accede to India while Baluchistan (or perhaps a part of it) refused to Pakistan. They were taken by force by India and Pakistan. Kashmir - well, I am not even going to get into that one :) TheBlueKnight (talk) 23:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Thanks, TheBlueKnight, for your reply. My questions above were mostly rhetorical. I apologize for the misunderstanding. True, Hyderabad did have soldiers, but those that didn't have a purely ceremonial function or purely "police" function (i.e. preservation of internal order), were part of the Hyderabad Contingent of the Imperial Service Troops. The Contingent was raised by the Nizam, but entirely for the purpose of providing support to the British Army if such support were needed, and were regularly inspected by British Army soldiers. At the turn of the 20th century, the Imperial Service Troops for all the princely states counted no more than 18,000 soldiers among its ranks. According to the IGI 1909(see below), "The other military forces maintained by the Native States aggregate no more that 93,000 men, but these troops are kept only for the purpose of internal order or ceremony and have little military value." The "defence" of Hyderabad in 1948, such as it was, was undertaken not by the Hyderabad State army, but by a paramilitary group, the Razakars, many of whom were from far away places like Rohilkhand. The main point above, however, is articulated in the Imperial Gazetteer of India. (The term "chief" means a ruler, a Maharaja, Raja, or Nawab.) "'Since a chief can neither attack his neighbour nor fall out with a foreign nation, it follows that he needs no military establishment which is not required either for police purposes or personal display, or for cooperation with the Imperial Government. The treaty made with Gwalior in 1844, and the instrument of transfer given to Mysore in 1881, alike base the restriction of the forces of the State upon the broad ground of protection. The former explained in detail that unnecessary armies were embarrassing to the State itself and the cause of disquietude to others: a few months later a striking proof of this was afforded by the army of the Sikh kingdom of Lahore.  The British Government has undertaken to protect the dominions of the Native princes from invasion and even from rebellion within: its army is organized for the defence not merely of British India, but of all the possessions under the suzerainty of the King-Emperor.' (Imperial Gazetteer of India, volume IV, 1909)."

It goes on to say (parenthetical additions mine): "'The treaties with most of the larger States are clear on this point. Posts in the interior must not be fortified, factories for the production of guns and ammunition must not be constructed, nor may the subject of other States be enlisted in the local forces. ... They (the Native States) must allow the (British) forces that defend them to obtain local supplies, to occupy cantonments or positions, and to arrest deserters; and in addition to these services they must recognize the Imperial (i.e. British) control of the railways, telegraphs, and postal communications as essential not only to the common welfare but to the common defence.'(IGI 1909, volume 4)"

Thus, in practice, the Native States had only (what has been termed) a "puppet sovereignty."

Meanwhile, user:Xn4, please respond to PBS's latest post above. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  12:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Fowler - you obviously know about this than I do. I am confused about one thing tho - how come Sikkim only acceded to India much later? Was there a different approach to some "native states"? From what I understand Sikkim was a separate nation till 1960 or so. And as for Hyderabad - I recollect reading that Churchill himself was adamant that it should be a separate country completely but he was in the opposition at that time. TheBlueKnight (talk) 20:19, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have access to books/sources right now, but off the top of my head, in the Anglo-Sikkimese Treaty of 186-?, the issue of sovereignty was left undefined; consequently, in 1947, Sikkim continued with India the relationship it had with the Raj. India managed its foreign affairs and defence.  At that time there were some conservative voices within the Indian government, viz. Patel, which frowned on this arrangement, but Nehru agreed to it.  I'm not sure what exactly changed in the 1970s or 80s; the conventional story is that the people of Sikkim themselves deposed the ruler.  I suspect though that Indira Gandhi had something to do with arranging this state of affairs.
 * As for the freedom the Native States had to go it alone in 1947, there are different schools of thought. Some people think that the Native States' fate was sealed after the Government of India Act of 1935; in other words, it was unlikely after 1935 that they would have a choice of remaining independent whenever the British left.  Others think that this really happened in 1939 when talks on Federalism failed.  Others maintain that it wasn't clear how things would go right up to 1947.  Some princes in any case thought they could remain independent.  Not only Hyderabad, but  Travancore (?) and a few others even tried, through Conservative Party connections in Britain, to look into the possibility of buying arms for their armies, or tried to get support for their independence by promising large arms purchases from British firms.  In any case, the Labour Government and Mountbatten in particular was firm on this and gave them little leeway.  Yeah, Churchill had that blind spot about Indian independence: he couldn't see it happening.  The spot would have been bigger had Roosevelt not sobered him up during the war.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  21:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sikkim is a special case because it was originally a part of Tibet before, sometime in the early 19th century, it became nominally independent of Tibet. Britain and Sikkim fought the anglo-sikkim war of 1860 and the British carved out a part of Sikkim into the Bengal Presidency (thus did Darjeeling become a part of India). I could probably rustle up a copy of White's book on Sikkim for what the British actually thought about Sikkim but, in the minds of the British, Sikkim was more a Tibetan nation than an Indian one. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 18:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I think besides Travancore it was perhaps Bhopal and few of the bigger states in Rajputana. But thanks for the info. TheBlueKnight (talk) 05:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

As user:Xn4 has not responded to my last post I have reinstated the disambiguation page at British India. Unless someone other than user:Xn4 reverts that edit back to the last edit by user:Xn4, or posts a message here objecting to my edits reinstating the disambiguation text, I think that we can conclude that this is the consensus for British India to be a disambiguation page. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello, Philip. My only reason for not replying above is that I have been away for two days and haven't visited Wikipedia. I don't agree that there is a consensus for British India to be a disambiguation page, and even if there were one here it wouldn't be very surprising. However, I have no objection to leaving it to someone else to revert your edits, which I disagree with. Xn4  ( talk ) 22:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to say, I'm finding this a very interesting talk page discussion. I can only agree that there isn't a consensus here on the usefulness of an article on British India, our opinions are clearly divided, even if some of us have more to say than others. I'm inclined to put British India back as it was, for the reasons which have come out in the discussion, and also because there's the potential for a useful and interesting article which seems to be on its way. I agree, though, that it will be better if it can develop on its own terms, with well-sourced new material which is specifically about the subject identified. Strawless (talk) 14:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Strawless, while there may be the potential for a useful and interesting article, no one has yet shown how this article would differ in content from the current British Raj one. It seems quite clear that there is little difference between the two - all of India, directly or indirectly under the crown - was considered a part of India at that time and it seems quite impossible to pretend that there were two Indias coexisting independently during the British days. There were not. However, since after careful consideration on your part, you feel that the current version has potential and is useful, it would be a great help if you would point to specific parts of the British India article as it exists now and explain why that part has no meaningful existence in an article on, or sub-article of, the British Raj. Mere duplication of material to illustrate a definitional difference or to make a point should have no place in an encyclopedia. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 18:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, I've tried to say how British India differs from British Raj (as the British Raj article defines itself). RegentsPark says "there is little difference between the two", but in a nutshell there's much the same difference as between Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic and Soviet Union. Again, "...all of India, directly or indirectly under the crown - was considered a part of India at that time": certainly, but India wasn't ever the same thing as British Raj, and only some parts of India were British India. Topics can be dealt with at British India more conveniently than anywhere else, and I'll aim to make some progress with them. It's largely a question of subsidiarity: we have articles on Norwich, Norfolk, East of England, England, Great Britain, United Kingdom, British Isles, European Union, and Europe, and they are all justified. Where there's a correct link to British India, it's surely good to be taken to the right place. Xn4  ( talk ) 22:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) You can say all this and more at MedCab. See below. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  00:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Philip B. S. has left a message on my talk page asking me to reply to a question here by RegentsPark. It seems as if events have moved on, but I broadly agree with what Xn4 says. Even if 'British India' and 'British Raj' covered exactly the same area, which in my understanding they don't, they still have different meanings. For a comparison, see University of Dublin and Trinity College, Dublin: physically the two are the same, but in what they do they are different. Strawless (talk) 12:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Infobox
There seem to be some minor problems in the infobox at British Raj, which at the moment is headed Indian Empire. The second line in the infobox, under 'Indian Empire', reads British colony, but neither the (British) Indian Empire nor the 'British Raj' was ever a colony. We read "Established August 2, 1858", and "Disestablished August 15, 1947. Neither of those dates applies to the Indian Empire (as we know, it was established much later, and George VI continued to be called Emperor of India until June 1948) although they arguably apply to the British Raj. But if the infobox is headed British Raj, that causes other problems. Can anyone suggest how to fix these difficulties? It isn't clear to me. Xn4  ( talk ) 23:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Why don't you worry about fixing British India. It has been three weeks now since it was created on August 13.  All I've seen up to this point is copied and pasted text.  I can easily revert it in the style of Strawless, but I'm giving you a chance.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, don't bother. I am reverting it to PBS's version.  I'm happy to go for a formal Wikipedia mediation with you, user:Strawless or any other fellow-travelers in your cause you can summon forth.  I will be happy to get in touch with MedCab (or user:Sunray) as and when you consent.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I have again reverted your edits to remove everything at British India and Talk:British India, which seems to be returning to an outcome which is agreed between Philip Baird Shearer and Strawless. You may wish to raise it with them. Xn4  ( talk ) 00:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You can revert it all you want, but I will be requesting a formal Wikipedia mediation, with you as the main respondent.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

This section was intended to be about the infobox. See above. There must be some things which we can discuss sensibly without 'mediation' or 'respondents' - the second of which is a term from civil litigation. If we could all be a bit less adversarial, it would be better. Xn4 ( talk ) 00:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Threatening medcab is an extremely poor show of courtesy to others and, especially, an extremely poor and sad show of the extensive knowledge of how wikipedia works. Please remember especially that cooperating with others, assuming good faith (emphasised and emboldened for reason) and also that Mediation Cabal is to resolve disputes and not proving one's point. MedCab is not a stick to threaten other editors with. In all fairness, remember that a number of editors have made their opinions known in these pages, and more surely have noted these dicussions. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 00:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No one is threatening anyone. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, whose main goal is to put out correct information.  It main priority is not to be nice to other people at the expense of putting out incorrect information.  What user:Xn4 is attempting has the effect of creating misinformation, especially since he himself is poorly informed about the topic.  If you feel you have the sources and argument for British India to be an independent page, feel free to join user:Xn4's party in the mediation.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»
 * I respectfully disagree with all of that, except for the second sentence. And I'm afraid I don't wish to have a 'party'. Xn4  ( talk ) 00:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * And here is Jimmy Wales himself in a New York Times interview: Greatest misconception about Wikipedia: "We aren’t democratic. Our readers edit the entries, but we’re actually quite snobby. The core community appreciates when someone is knowledgeable, and thinks some people are idiots and shouldn’t be writing." His remarks shouldn't be taken personally, but be interpreted as a condemnation of misinformation. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

What misinformation Fowler??? unless if you're saying that what he copied (as you allege) from these pages are factually wrong!!! I have great respect for your toil and efforts, doesn't mean you get to ride rough shod over others! Enough is enough!!! you've not only threatened medcab day in day out to well nigh every one you've sustained opposition with, it seems to me you've begun using it as a method to scare other people off, which is entirely dishonest!!! Another very worthy approach would've been to stand back, hear what he has to say, and taken his points and then discussed it instead of goin in with your 88s blazing. I can three quarters see what XN4 is saying, and you yourself have added that India was in some olympics in 1920s as British India, not British Raj!!! And for you knowing oh so much, you know as well as I do that you are reading three or four text books of Modern Indian history (WP:RS) which have their own view points, and using them to support mostly (largely) the the way you want it portrayed,as do others, its not neccessarily biased, it is not neccessarily wrong! But it is frankly unacceptable, that you threaten medcab to another editor who has just a decent history in WP as you do, for which the only reason I can see is to scare them off, as you tried with myself sometime last year. Notice here that I still discuss things with you cordially, civilly, and with trust and respect. I expect the same from you (and every other editor) to myself, and to every other editor who works here in WP without any reward! rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 01:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You can say all this and more in the mediation, including, perhaps, identifying which three or four of the three dozen references (which I added to this article and which are sitting in my bookshelf facing me) I am using. Why waste words here?  Anyway, Good night to all.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  01:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, perhaps you'd like to explain your own conduct there as well, frankly unfortunate. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 01:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * While I think Fowler's knowledge on subjects related to Indian history is terrific; his attitude does not augur well for a co-operative forum like Wikipedia. Having knowledge on a subject matter should not be misconstrued as a license to threaten others or refuse to work toward building consensus. Perhaps there is still a way to salvage the situation - fowler, i hope you don't take this personally. TheBlueKnight (talk) 09:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem as I see it is not Fowler's knowledgability, of which there are strengths as well as ample weeknesses. It is th e extremely unfortunate arrogance in that, and his disgusting attitude to others who work just as hard but dont make enough fuss to get the same pacifying adulation. A look at the Archives of this page and India Talk page at the very least (if they were archived in an orderly manner) will indicate this to you. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 09:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * To user:TheBlueKnight: I have very little time right now, but I will try to respond to your post. I have been plenty patient with user:Xn4.  Compare how he has made his edits with how I deal with important topics on important pages.  Look at the Talk:Honourable East India Company page.  I feel that the name of the page should be (simply) "East India Company."  Did I unilaterally change it myself? No, I presented the evidence on the talk page on August 25.  All three editors who have responded there have agreed with me.  Have I changed the name yet?  No.  I'm still giving it time.  It has been a week.  Look now at the India page.  An editor as introduced a new sentence in the lead paragraph.  What did I do?  I made a series of posts of the talk page.


 * In contrast, what did user:Xn4 do? He made an edit which was both provocative and full of errors in the lead of this page on August 13, 2008. Nothing was mentioned on this talk page.  After returning from my vacation when I saw the edit, and challenged him, he proceeded to edit-war with me, and adding content such as, "British Raj is an imprecise term which began in about the 1920s as a colloquialism for 'British India', ..." in the very first sentence of the British Raj page, unaware, apparently, that this statement contradicted the edits he had made on August 13, 2008 to the British India page, where (according to the "definition" he had copied and pasted from the British Raj page), British India was only those regions under the British Raj that were directly administered by the British.


 * When, I presented evidence that the term was older than 1920 etc., he reluctantly began to retract all his edits on British Raj, but continued to edit British India (this, incidentally, is a page that had a redirect for the last two years, and, had this explicit statement by admin Philip Baird Shearer at the top). What did he do there?  Well, he defined (by copying and pasting of course) British India to be the "British India" of the British Raj and not that of Company rule in India (see here).  Again, as we know from statutes of the British Parliament dating to 1770 and from India Office statements from the early 20th century, the term "British India" has been used for British dominions in India pretty much from the early 17th century.  When he was challenged with this correction, what did he do? In this edit, he changed the lead sentence back to being about the British Raj, but delegated the inconvenient fact about Company Rule to the page Company rule in India, with this incorrect statement, "The term has also been used less formally for the holdings in India of the Honourable East India Company in the period up to 1857, but that period is dealt with in Company rule in India."  The term was not used less formally; it has been just as formal.  Here is the Imperial Gazetteer of India (published under the authority of the Secretary of State for India-in-Council, another name for the British Government India Office), "The history of British India falls, as observed by Sir. C.P. Ilbert in his Government of India, into three periods.  From the beginning of the seventeenth century to the middle of the eighteenth century ..."  And if he can delegate the pre-1858 "British India" to Company rule in India, why can't he delegate the post-1858 "British India" to Crown rule in India (guess which page that is?)?


 * When administrators suggested possible options, as user:Nishkid64 did in this edit and made an explicit suggestion (in this edit), " what did he do?  He failed to respond to user:Nishkid64's post, but spammed various talk pages, which resulted in a series of posts, starting with this post by Strawless (who had no history of editing the British Raj page),  and this post by Stephen Kirrages, which suggested the British India page should be about what "exactly 'what it was' from 1765 to 1947," but added, "I agree with Fowler, however, that how British India was governed (political, administrative, historical) or about how life was lived in British India (social, economic), in other words what happened there, would more sensibly go in the Raj or Company rule articles."  What did he do with this suggestion?  Again ignored it, for, witness the contents of the current British India page; they are all about political, administrative, and historical details.


 * When administrator user:Philip Baird Shearer attempted to resolve the issue by creating a disambiguation page, with this edit, and posting on this page with this edit, what did user:Xn4 do? He answered with this post on this talk page, where he stated, "Hello, Philip. My only reason for not replying above is that I have been away for two days and haven't visited Wikipedia. I don't agree that there is a consensus for British India to be a disambiguation page, and even if there were one here it wouldn't be very surprising. However, I have no objection to leaving it to someone else to revert your edit, which I disagree with."  Apparently, what that statement meant was that as soon as someone else reverted that edit, he would feel free to start editing the article again (without pursuing the discussion about the disambiguation).  For, soon thereafter, user:Strawless (the same Strawless whose talk page was spammed, who had no history of editing the British Raj page, and who has failed to respond to admin Shearer's request for further discussion), nonetheless saw fit to revert admin Shearer's edit, and, true to his word, user:Xn4 then saw fit to start editing the page again.


 * Well, you tell me yourself, user:TheBlueKnight, here is someone (user:Xn4) who doesn't know the first thing about the history of British India (as evidenced by the number of incorrect edits he has made thus far; you, for example, in your posts showed that you know a great deal more), who has been belligerent and provocative in his edits right from the start (even in the face of administrative intervention), who has spent as much time retracting the misinformation that he has added as he has holding forth on the talk page of a topic he knows nothing about. Little wonder that he has not been able to answer user:RegentsPark's simple question (that user Stephen Kirrages had no problem answering), "what content belongs to British India that doesn't belong to the British Raj, Provinces of British India, or to the disambiguation page?" What am I supposed to do? Stand by, applaud, and give him an "A" for effort, while ludicrous statements, for example this multiply like rabbits on Wikipedia's pages?  Wikipedia's ultimate goal is to put out correct information in its pages; its goal is not to create a New Age feel-good environment where one party is able to willy-nilly spread disinformation, while the other party has to bend over backwards in order to correct it.  Regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with personalizing all these issues, and much of the barrage of criticisms of me above is terribly inaccurate. However, I don't feel it would be a good use of my time to answer every point in detail, life is too short. I do notice, though, that so far there hasn't been any reply to the points I raised at the head of this new section about the infobox at British Raj. Xn4  ( talk ) 23:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

British India: Dispute resolution
user:rueben lys I think you misunderstand what "medcab" (formal Wikipedia mediation) is for. That User:Fowler&fowler suggests using it may have been premature as we have not yet exhausted other options like an RfC (See Dispute resolution), and informal mediation, but in principle as there is a disagreement over the issue and not apparent chance of building a compromise consensus (as is apparent from the sections on this talk page immediately preceding this one), I do not think that User:Fowler&fowler is threatening anyone, as we need to resolve this issue.

I am placing an RFC on the page Talk:British India and we can continue the discussion about this on that page as we seem to have agreement that British India will no longer be a redirect to this page (see Talk:British_India). --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I understand BlueKnight, that MedCab is mediation, and also a late step. But a look at Fowler's message will suggest it not suggested not so much as a mediation as much... a threat (for that's the only word I can find). And this is particularly why I term it a poor and sad show of the knowledge of how WP works. Having been on the recieving side of that well nearly a year ago (on Talk:India, where a consensus was reached, but has yet to be implmented) and having observed a number of discussions involving a wide range of topics, I am thoroughly disappointed at the lack of courtesy shown by Fowler to those he disagrees with. Compare, for example, XN4's conduct on these pages and others, to Fowler's (again on these pages and others), draw your own conclusions. Knowledge on a topic does not grant exemption from the Five Pillars of Wikipedia, and remember you're not the only knowledgable person around. XN4 (without supporting or opposing his work on British India) has I think been shown a stupendous lack of courtesy by Fowler, a conduct that replicates Fowler's conduct to other editors in the past, regardless of how worthy a contribution that editor has made to WP. I am not outing a grudge, I am voicing my exasperation with his approach. This page is not there yet, and a not very problematic issue is snowballing into a huge problem, with (in my opinion unfair and baseless) accusations of PoV, bias, and worst of all Bad Faith. There is also the use of double standards (on Canvassing, among other issues alleged by Fowler, as XN4 showed above), which taken together is a frankly disappointing conduct from an experienced wikipedia  rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 10:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Archive
This page is becoming large and I think it is probably best if we draw a line under the current sections on this talk page, as little constructive for the development of this page is currently being discussed. So unless anyone objects I will archive anything before this section in 24 hours time. Any new constructive discussions about this page that are started after this postings should be placed in a new section below this one. For example if the Infobox is in need of development then I suggest a new section below this one that only discusses the suggested changes and does not descend into criticisms about editors as no consensus is likely in the current section called Infobox. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, that sounds good to me.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)