Talk:Brominated vegetable oil

Have similar iodinated lipids been tried as replacements for the possibly harmful brominated ones? Iodized oils have been used as contrast agents and for goiter prophylaxis in populations with low dietary iodine intake, so it seems possible that a lipid with about 3/4 as many iodine atoms would serve as a replacement without BVO's risk of interfering with iodine uptake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlesHBennettW (talk • contribs) 14:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

References Other Locals
Reference 13 isn't a reliable source for non USA information. http://www.mayoclinic.org/bvo/expert-answers/faq-20058236

Should be changed to a European site such as http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/topics/topic/bfr ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.57.96.1 (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Dead link
External link is dead @ university of minnesota. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.159.226.154 (talk) 01:33, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Egypt?
What's this bit about Egypt? What's the source? I'm inclined not to believe it due to its awkward placement and uncapitalised "e" in Egypt.--Dustin Asby 00:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Health risks
I don't think the health risks should be stated so bluntly with only one case study to support them. This reads like an overreaction to a food additive. OngoingCivilUnrest 06:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * We have learnt in recent years that human individuals react vastly different to food stuffs. E.g. Where I grew up, peanuts or peanut products had not been imported yet due to post war years. Then peanuts appeared, nobody thought twice about eating them and I have not heard of any deaths. Today we know that peanuts can be deadly, cashews are another problem. Or it can be as slight as with the young lady I know who cannot eat pistacchios. Her adverse reaction is not dangerous; she just vomits.


 * Wherever a substance causes change in behaviour in mammals (here rats), there needs to be further investigation and caution would dictate to disallow that substance in foodstuffs. Think of all the heartbreaking problems that numerous parents have with their ADHD, ODD, and autism children. The manufacturers and those who benefit from sales of these substances owe it to mankind to ensure that no more harm than necessary comes to people whose lives are so terribly impacted. The manufacturers and users of the substance under a cloud must fund studies. 121.209.53.9 (talk) 03:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Concurred. And the bromine-displaces-iodine comment is either irrelevant or severely in need of relevancy/context. As it stands, tt sounds like a gross over-generalization of SN2 reactions. Except the major (and maybe even only) iodine-containing compounds in humans are aryl, so not susceptible to SN2 reactions. Would need a cite that the pathway that bromide competitively blocks iodide on Thyroid peroxidase. DMacks 11:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Just don't understand, why they didn't used iodine instead of bromine, wouldn't it be better? Iodine is heavier, so to achieve the same density, you have to add less IVO than BVO. And maybe it can actually give health benefit to those who have iodine deficiency. 188.163.104.178 (talk) 17:12, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

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Drinks With BVO
There is no citation for any of the drinks listed as having BVO. I know that Mountain Dew does, in fact, have it, but Mello Yello does not (I removed this) and I haven't checked the other drinks. This info has been repeated around the web (the drinks list) and it seems WP is the source of it. These companies might be a bit upset if their product doesn't have it, and WP is the source of the disinformation. I suggest the specific drink names be removed from the opening section unless a citation is provided. Vizzini101 (talk) 01:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)Vizzini101
 * For now, I've removed the list. If someone can find references for the ingredients in those drinks, they can be added back.  -- Ed (Edgar181) 12:01, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Links on the Pepsi/mountain dew sites for nutrition information
Every variety of Mountain dew is still listed on a Pepsi web site

http://www.pepsiproductfacts.com/infobyproduct.php?p=1049.1000.3480&s=8&pc=p1062&t=1027&print=1

and

http://pepsiproductfacts.com/infobycategory.php?pc=p1062&t=1026&print=1&i=fingrdnt&s=8

Other pepsi products: (retrieved 3/8/2010)
 * Mountain Dew	..., BROMINATED VEGETABLE OIL, YELLOW 5
 * Caffeine Free Mountain Dew
 * Mountain Dew Code Red
 * Mountain Dew Live Wire
 * Mountain Dew Throwback
 * Mountain Dew Voltage
 * Diet Mountain Dew
 * Caffeine Free Diet Mountain Dew
 * Diet Mountain Dew Code Red

Coca-cola products: []
 * Fresca

If nobody objects, I'll add this list back to the main article after other comments are reviewed Watchpup (talk) 23:53, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Recent change
Regarding this change, I think it removes some cited content and introduces inaccuracies and uncited opinions.

DMacks (talk) 18:11, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Removed: "and to produce a cloudy appearance" but the Bendig ref states "frequently used as a clouding agent". Changed "emulsifier" to "stabilize[r]", but its sole or at least primary mode of stabilization is to keep insoluble material suspended and dispersed, which seems to match the definition at emulsion.
 * 2) Changed "The addition of bromine increases the density of the oil, and the amount of bromine is carefully controlled to achieve a density that is the same as the water in the drink. As a result, the BVO remains suspended in the water" to "The addition of BVO increases the density of the oil. The amount added is carefully controlled so that the citrus flavor oil has the same density as the water in the drink. As a result, the droplets containing BVO remain suspended in the water". The original theme is that by adjusting how much Br is bound to the vegetable-oil molecules, the density of the vegetable oil is increased. The amount of bromine (and therefore the BVO density) is chosen either to make a match with water for either the BVO itself or the BVO/flavor-oil solution. Again, this is in agreement with the Bendig ref (discusses intentional control of the BVO density by Br content of it). It's true that the result is often denser than water and that the amount of it added to the flavor oil is controlled to match water (since the goal is to suspend the flavor not just to produce cloudiness). But given the likely densities involved, the amount of BDO is not just a small amount dissolved in the other oil, and both the amount of BVO and density (and therefore the bromination level of the BVO) are directly related to the amount chosen. Therefore I dispute the change that suggests BVO is a single chemical with a specific density (loss of precision and back-story) and that it is added in trace amounts to alter the density of the flavor-oil droplets (no evidence it's not a more even mixture and again the cloudiness is not just due to the flavor oil). I would agree with changing the application/including the control of the resulting mixture density, but not with removal of the actual bromination as the control of the density of BVO.
 * 3) Changed "instead of forming separate layers" to "instead of forming an ugly ring at the surface". It may well form a ring because it's only a small amount of oil that might stick to the edge of the container instead of spread across the surface or drops sitting on the surfgace, but all I know is that it would float (I think "layer" is a more generic terminology). No cite for specific geometry or for the opinion that it would be ugly.
 * 1. I agree that the phrase "and to produce a cloudy appearance" is supported by the reference and should stay in. However, I think the use of the term "emulsifier" is used more narrowly in food chemistry than the way it is used more generally in other sciences and I'm not convinced that it's the right term for this article - I see BVO as something that is added to stabilize an existing, but not sufficiently stable, emulsion rather that something is sufficient to create the emulsion on its own, particularly in any other application.  This is a small quibble that I could live with either way.
 * 2. Bromine is added to vegetable oil to create BVO. BVO is added to citrus oils to increase the density of the BVO/citrus oil mixture.  Based on this link (hope it works for you), the density of BVO is significantly greater than the density of water (1.33 g/mL).  The statement that bromine "is carefully controlled to achieve a density that is the same as the water in the drink" is therefore misleading as I read it referring to adjusting the density of BVO to match the density of water.  The amount of bromine added to vegetable oil achieves a density greater than that of water.  It would be more relevant to say that the amount of BVO is controlled to adjust the density of the citrus oil.
 * 3. I think removing the "separate layers" is indeed a good change because the amount of oil is probably insufficient to generate a true layer. I have no problem with removing the phrase referring to a "ring" either (particularly the POV term "ugly"). -- Ed (Edgar181) 18:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The reference is written by food analysts who are not expert in beverage technology, so they are not a good source of information on the point that we are discussing. I'll try and come up with something better, but like most formulation science, it is not well documented, partly for commercial reasons. Prof. McClements of UMass has some relevant articles, I think.

- OK for the "ugly" - beginner's mistake. Ring formation makes the beverage look "off" to consumers, so what term do you prefer? Beverage emulsions never get to the point of forming a separate oil layer. The droplets just form a dense ring in the meniscus.

- BVO is not added for a cloudy appearance. Straight vegetable oil would have the same effect at a much lower cost & no storm of consumer complaints.

- the use of the term "emulsifier" is flat wrong. Emulsifier are interfacially active. BVO is not. BVO changes the oil density, that's all. It slows down the Stokes velocity of the droplets. "Stabilizer" could be acceptable, but this functionality is not in the list under that term in Wikipedia.

- the idea that the amount of bromine added is adjusted is flat wrong too. The molecules in the Bendig article are unsaturated fatty acids which are fully brominated. Pepsi and Coke do not play with degree of bromination of BVO. They buy a product of standard density and adjust its amount to get the appropriate density oil phase, including allowing for the effect of sugar in the water. I do not have a reference for that, because none exists. - To be continued... AlanParkerFrance (talk) 22:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The E443 entry (from when it used to be listed as approved) listed it as both "stabilizer" and "emulsifier". I agree that "stabilizer" is an easier-understood term here. Wouldn't straight vegetable oil float (just like a bottle of salad dressing) rather than cloud? The whole point of the Br is to add density to make the oil phase neutrally buoyant and form a stable suspension/emulsion (whether or not it meets the technical definition of "emulsifier" in chemistry and/or food/formulation science). As per the ref, I'm certainly fine eliding the idea of matching BVO density to water itself and refocusing on the density of the mixture. But the density of the BVO itself does have to be controlled just as much as the amount of BVO used (if either its d or V is off, the flavor-mixture density won't be correct). If the oil is fully brominated, that's fine (and we should say that) rather than that the amount of bromination (in a chemical sense) is controlled. But the amount of bromine as a mass-fraction does impact the product density (albeit apparently by using the correct unsaturated vegetable oil). How about "Careful control of the type of oil used (generally [whatever]) allows bromination of it to produce BVO with a specific density (1.33 g/mL). As a result, it can be mixed with less-dense flavoring agents to produce a resulting oil whose density matches that of water or other products."? DMacks (talk) 19:00, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * For the terms stabilizer/emulsifier/clouding agent, I'm fine with using any of them in the article, even if the terms aren't used with exactly the same technical meaning as they would be in the field of food chemistry - we're writing for general audience after all. I like your suggested phrasing for the density discussion too, and I think it should be introduced into the article.  -- Ed (Edgar181) 20:12, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I adjusted the wording related to density control and effect to integrate this wording. DMacks (talk) 02:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. Thank you.  -- Ed (Edgar181) 15:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Removed reference to PepsiCo removing ingredient due to petition
Removed reference to PepsiCo removing ingredient due to petition. In AP followup story, PepsiCo representative has denied that the petition was the cause of them removing the ingredient, and the plan to replace it had been in the works for a year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.145.185 (talk) 21:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

BVO is a weighting agent, not an emulsifier
BVO is an alternative to SAIB and glyceryl ester of abietic acid. These three substances are all weighting agents: they are used to increase the density of citrus oils, to prevent the droplets rising to the top of the beverage. They are definitely not emulsifiers. Therefore I am removing references to gum Arabic that is an emulsifier. AlanParkerFrance (talk) 23:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Flame Retardant Status
The last edit added a ref to a patent that contained a variety of partially or fully brominated oils - not specifically vegetable oil. "(a) quick-drying unsaturated oil(s), (b) terpene-containing volatile oil, (c) phosphate ester and (d) a boron compound as fungicidal component, in which the oils are at least partly brominated." Thus, BVO itself is not patented as a flame retardant according to that source. The patent is for a flame retardant made from a mixture of those compounds, and it appears on the the first would potentially be a vegetable oil. Also, the original reference (the USA Today article) only says "In her petitions, Sarah Kavanagh noted that the ingredient has been patented as a flame retardant and isn't approved for use in Japan and the European Union." Pcwendland (talk) 14:29, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:V is policy (we trust published sources unless specifically contradicted by other such), even if we strongly suspect it may not be the WP:TRUTH. So we have a ref supporting that BVO is "patented as a flame retardant", and we have a patent literature that supports that a mixture of 4 things that are brominated (only two of which would be brominatable). That doesn't dispute the original claim, merely supports that it might well be true (though we may well suspect it's just a non-expert or casually-worded analysis or Telephone (game) by the time it reaches the popular press. More significantly, this was just the first patent I found, she may have found a different one or seen another source that is more specific. We can't use "I found A, that doesn't specifically disprove B" to cast a strong shadow on "B, that is based on A or C". We can't dispute a WP:RS, but we can include alternate or additional interpretations if there are other sources too. DMacks (talk) 15:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, here we go (one of the ones cited by the previous one I found):
 * Specifically supports the unsaturated oil becoming brominated and that as a flame-retardant component. DMacks (talk) 15:30, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, I think that the claim about it being a fire retardant is mostly reported in the news article as a scare tactic by and/or for un-informed or willfully ignorant members of the public ("OMG, they're putting chemicals in my food! Chemicals that are used for non-food things!"). So I have pushed to make sure any mention of this use is distinct from the food use. DMacks (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, I think that the claim about it being a fire retardant is mostly reported in the news article as a scare tactic by and/or for un-informed or willfully ignorant members of the public ("OMG, they're putting chemicals in my food! Chemicals that are used for non-food things!"). So I have pushed to make sure any mention of this use is distinct from the food use. DMacks (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I think my issue with the USA Today article you cited is that it's not USA Today (pretty reliable) saying so - it's them saying "In her petitions, Sarah Kavanagh noted that the ingredient has been patented as a flame retardant" (not so reliable. It reminds me of language like "Allegedly, the man took an alleged sum of around $1,000" - almost trying to avoid blame if something is indeed wrong). However, two other USA Today pages from within the last couple of weeks say " the controversy comes from the bromine, an ingredient also in brominated flame retardants" (implying that BVO and brominated flame retardants both contain bromine... a whole lot of other things contain bromine too) and "The petition on Change.org noted that the ingredient is linked to a flame retardant" ("linked to"). Regardless, I do acknowledge that the patent you cited does support its use as a fire retardant - and I agree that the "this thing is used in this non-food thing!" talk is nothing but a scare tactic. "There's de-icer in my food! The aspirin I take is related to rat poison! We better throw out everything we own and only eat raw organic kale forever. But oh no, the sulfur in the kale is also used as a pesticide! Might as well thrive on only oxygen now. But oxygen is a chemical!" Pcwendland (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd be fine seeing the mention of this use of it marginalized even further. Maybe explicitly noting that this claimed use (or related compounds) is one of the bases for public outcry?--that would clarify that news is just credulously reporting what the petition says, not making its own analysis. I'm not sure how to word it without giving even more space to this idea (WP:UNDUE). But also I'm starting to agree that we shouldn't just state the fact, because that doesn't help readers understand the chemicals-bad misuse of the idea. How about just a sentence such as:
 * One source of public concern is due to BVO and related substances also being used as brominated flame retardants.
 * I didn't know we even had that article! But that emphasizes what aspect of it is relevant for that use and helps readers learn about that topic (while still not giving any additional weight to this claimed concern here). DMacks (talk) 19:54, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

So is BVO used in drinks or not
Near the start the article says BVO is used in PepsiCO drinks. Near the end it says PepsiCO stopped use of BVO in May of 2014. Almost a year ago. So what's the deal here? Lots42 (talk) 15:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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File:Triglycerid-Bromierung V.1.svg
This example of the production of a BVO might be added to the article. --Leyo 10:29, 15 December 2023 (UTC)