Talk:Brother Speed Motorcycle Club

Criminal?
Can anyone explain why this bike club is headed with the "criminal organisation" info box? It also has the OutlawMotorcycleGroups template, but absolutely nothing in the article suggests they are illegal or criminal. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Finding a verifiable source of criminal activity by the Brother Speed club has proved quite a challenge for me. Apart from websites parroting the Wikipedia page, the closest thing I could find was a blog post that listed Brother Speed as an Oregon "Outlaw Motorcycle Gang," and referenced "Police Estimates; Attorney General Report."  The "Police Estimates" were unsourced, but the Attorney General Report was.  Not only is Brother Speed is not mentioned in the Attorney General Report, but a search of the Oregon Attorney General's website said: "Your search - 'brother speed' - did not match any documents."  When I searched Google for "Brother speed" and the various things they're accused of in the Wiki article-- "drug trafficking," "arms dealing," "extortion," or "money laundering," everything I found ultimately led beck to unsourced or incorrectly sourced claims in this Wiki article.  I don't know whether those claims are true or not, but they certainly seem to fail the verifiability test. Jagcowan (talk) 16:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Criminal activities?
I haven't been around long enough to feel comfortable editing articles, but this one appears to be completely wrong under the "criminal activities" heading. The Wiki article says "a Brother Speed member was charged with concealing a dangerous weapon after his car was pulled over by police," but the newspaper article cited said the car was owned by a member of the Outsiders Motorcycle Club and it does not say that anyone in the car was arrested or charged with anything other than the ticket the Outsider got for driving with an expired license. Since the guns were found in the trunk, it doesn't appear that any crime was committed. It's legal to carry loaded firearms in the trunk of a vehicle in Oregon. (http://www.usacarry.com/oregon_concealed_carry_permit_information.html) I don't see any evidence of any criminal activity by any Brother Speed member in the newspaper article cited. Jagcowan (talk) 02:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

As it was originally written, the "criminal activities" section contained material misrepresentations of the source material. Prior to my edit, the Wiki article said: "On October 21, 2008, a Brother Speed member was charged with concealing a dangerous weapon after his car was pulled over by police in Eugene, Oregon. Police found a box of ammunition and two hand guns in the car. An Outsiders member and a Gypsy Joker were also riding in the vehicle at the time." However, the source cited for this information said that the car was driven my the Outsider, not the Brother Speed member. The source cited said that the Outsider was ticketed for driving with an expired license; it did not say anyone was arrested, much less charged with "concealing a dangerous weapon" or any other crime. Finally, the source cited said that the firearms were found in the trunk of the car, and carrying a firearm in the trunk of a car does not constitute "concealing a dangerous weapon" and is not illegal under Oregon law.

Since the "criminal activities" section as originally written was contradicted by the source cited in pretty much every material respect and the cited source did not describe any criminal activity by any Brother Speed member, I tried simply deleting the offending section, and provided the explanation that the source cited provided no evidence of criminal activities by any Brother Speed member. My edit was undone with the instructions: "Don't remove sourced data simply by saying 'it's wrong'. Discuss on talk page." (Never mind the fact I pointed out the specific problems with the article on the "talk" page days before I ventured in to correct the article myself.)

It seems quite silly to me that you can't delete "sourced data" when the the article totally misrepresents what the source says. It seems even sillier to include a "criminal activities" section where the activities described do not constitute a crime. However, rather than delete the mis-sourced information again and have the deletion undone again, I have gone through and rewritten the "criminal activities" section to bring it in line with the source cited. Of course, anyone reading the article will wonder why there is a "criminal activities" when the conduct described is not criminal, and perhaps someone with more editorial clout than I will either delete the "criminal activities" completely, as I tried to do the first time around, or find some actual verifiable source providing information regarding criminal activity by the Brother Speed club or its members. Jagcowan (talk) 15:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Criminality, again.
We have two law enforcemet sources saying Brother Speed is an "outlaw biker gang" or an "outlaw motorcycle club":



We do not have any sources saying Brother Speed engages in any criminal activity. At the moment, this is what the article says. Discuss, if desired. --Dbratland (talk) 23:28, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well that didn't last long. This edit deletes the statement that neither the Oregon nor Idaho authorities specify any criminal activities by Brother Speed.  It also deletes the explanation, supported by five sources, that within this subculture "outlaw club" does not imply criminal intent.  So how is the article now better without this information?  I would submit that it is more helpful to fully explain the facts, especially given the large number of sources, particularly academic researchers, who say that not all so-called "outlaw clubs/gangs" are criminals. --Dbratland (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The article already links to Outlaw motorcycle club where you have inserted the same questionable definition already. It should be obvious to anyone viewing your recent edits or either of these discussions that you have an agenda that you are pushing here. Several reliable sources state that Brother Speed considered to be an "outlaw motorcycle gang". By any reasonable definition that means that they are a criminal organisation. Please read WP:NPOV and WP:TRUTH again. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you think I have an agenda, please complain about my bias in a appropriate venue. I'm focused on sticking close to what sources actually say, not what we read between the lines.  If you want to talk about me, go to my talk page and talk about me, or post a complaint at ANI or whatever board you like.  Please stick to discussing editing Brother Speed on this page.


 * I want to add this: The Idaho Gangs web site lists five gangs: Bandidos, Brother Speed, Gypsy Joker, Hells Angels, and Mongols. Four of them have a bulleted list of crimes: Firearms violations, Assault, Murder and so on.  For Brother Speed, nothing.  Odd.  Here's one other citation, that backs up the MSNBC claim that the Oregon Dept. of Justice calls them "outlaw bikers."  Once again, no specifics whatsoever as to any crimes:
 * --Dbratland (talk) 00:08, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not interested in playing this game with you. The MSNBC reference is to not to "outlaw bikers" as you put in quotes above, but to Brother Speed being an "outlaw biker gang". This is the second time you have misquoted that particular story.


 * The second sentence from the Register Guard story is:"Testimony Thursday in the trial of a man accused of trying to run two investigators off Interstate 5 two months ago opened a door to the inner workings of the six motorcycle gangs in Oregon tagged by the government as "outlaw" organizations". The term outlaw in the context of that article clearly means "gang" and that term is also used throughout. This type of cherry picking to further your point of view simply isn't acceptable.


 * The Idaho website lists general criminal activities for some outlaw biker gangs but not Brother Speed. That does not mean that Brother Speed is not involved in those activities, particularly in light of their inclusion on that site and all the other available references. Please stop this. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is precisely the thing we disagree about. For me, the generic claim that they are "outlaws" is a far cry from proving they are a criminal organization, but for you it is enough.  You say it's "obvious" they are criminal, and I say if it is so obvious, then enumerate some -- any! -- of their crimes.  This type of disagreement is not unusual on Wikipedia, and it is not cause for alarm when two editors have this type of disagreement.  I'm interested in hearing what others think on this question.--Dbratland (talk) 00:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * When a reference is from a law enforcement source, and it utilizes the word outlaw, it means criminal. That is obvious.  Period. Hooper (talk) 02:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Dbratland, you seem to have a serious problem with misquoting. What I referred to as obvious was your agenda here. I have provided multiple reliable sources showing that Brother Speed is viewed by both the news media and law enforcement as a criminal organisation. I'm sure other editors will soon show up to offer their opinions, but please remember that Wikipedia is not the place to debate the rightness or wrongness of that label (see WP:TRUTH). Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe I myself did already say, "It is not meant to argue one way or there other for the truth of what they are or are not." Waaaaay back here.  I'm perfectly fine with quoting what the Idaho and Oregon authorities think, but censoring the contrary ideas published by respectable academic researchers and authors is a problem for me.  Deleting contrary points of view and aligning the article with law enforcement's point of view, with such thin evidence, is a problem.  Does it not seem odd that this "criminal" group, founded in 1969, is forty years old, and yet we can't lay one crime at their door?  Not even one?  It makes no sense.--Dbratland (talk) 04:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That type of mindset leads to OR. Please refrain. Hooper (talk) 10:01, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Brother Speed Mother Chapter
This wiki refers to Brother Speed's origins in Boise, Idaho now having its mother chapter in Portland, Oregon. The mother chapter of Brother Speed was, is, and always be Boise, Idaho. 48hardtail —Preceding unsigned comment added by 48hardtail (talk • contribs) 08:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Not according to this reliable source. Please read WP:VERIFIABILITY. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:08, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Inactive Links
The External Link and Reference #5 links appear to be inactive. 67.161.220.240 (talk) 01:57, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

False information
all information that has been edited by shaolin punk is absolutely false but with several attempts by others to have it removed Wikipedia has not Ricotta219 (talk) 04:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Personal attacks on fellow editors will not be tolerated. You keep calling the information false but it, as opposed to what you keep trying to add, is supported by reliable sources. Please provide the three best reliable sources which support your version so the community can review this information. -- A Rose Wolf  12:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You keep relying on something posted by the goverment, which are inaccurate and could possibly lead to a slander suit against you. I am a current Brother Speed member and assure you that our club has never tried to join the Angels, has never distributed or manufactured meth, and have never owned large capacity stun guns (which don't exist). Brb232 (talk) 21:14, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I would warn you against making legal threats, as that will get you instantly blocked. Your membership in the group and your personal knowledge do not trump published sources. That said, the cited DOJ report (Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs: USA Overview) should be taken with a grain of salt. While the DOJ does make many sweeping accusations in this report, the report is over 30 years old, and unless actual prosecutions followed, we have no way of verifying the truth of these accusations. The text of the article should reflect this. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your candor. Taking something with a grain of salt is one thing, but republishing known inaccuracies is hardly acceptable. For example, to state that BSMC assembles "fully-automatic stun guns" is one of the most ridiculous statements ever written. Even if they did exist today, they surely did not 30 years ago. For this reason regardless of the source, the statement should be removed. Brb232 (talk) 21:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I also agree with your statement "While the DOJ does make many sweeping accusations in this report, the report is over 30 years old, and unless actual prosecutions followed, we have no way of verifying the truth of these accusations. The text of the article should reflect this." How can this sourced article be made to reflect this? Brb232 (talk) 22:54, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

"Criminal" status and COI edits
It appears that the article subject has a disputed history with regard to its supposed criminal status, as well as editors associated with the subject removing sourced content to that effect. Is there a source reliability issue? and also are there any wp:reliable sources that dispute the group's criminal history that can be added? -- Lenny Marks (talk) 21:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Note I was contacted by an editor with a purported COI who raised concerns over the relability of information in the article. I asked him to take them here


 * The link: https://books.google.com/books?id=RA5XCAAAQBAJ&dq=thomas+shull+hells+angels&pg=PT99 which is labeled #6 on this page no longer exists. I would appreciate if all content and mentions because of it be removed. The following paragraph lists #6 as a reference "During the 1970s, the Brother Speed in Boise applied to the Oakland, California chapter of the Hells Angels for permission to join the Angels. The Oakland club sent a representative to Idaho to assess the Brother Speed's suitability for membership, who recommended that the Brothers not be accepted into the Hells Angels. The reason why the Brother Speed was denied membership in the Hells Angels is unknown.[page needed]" Brb232 (talk) 22:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Reference #7 on this page refers to "fully-automatic stun guns" which was properly referenced but is an innaccurate statement as there is no such thing as a "fully-automatic stun gun". If an atricle or document is written containing a false statement, that statement should not be further referenced anywhere else as it is already false. Please remove this statement from this page. Brb232 (talk) 22:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * So, in general, wikipedia is based on sources not wp:original research. If you think that the part about stun guns is inaccurate for example, it can't be removed just for that reason. There are two options: you can either provide your own wp:reliable source that contradicts it and then we can add whatever it says in that source also, or you can refute the reliability of the source at Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Because source 7 is from the US Department of Justice it is unlikely to be found unreliable, but you can try. Source 6 cites a book so it doesn't need to have a URL, because the information can come from a physical copy.

In short: It is not enough for you to beleive or know that something is wrong, you have to have sources to back it up. I would recommend searching for wp:reliable sources about the history of this group that would refute its criminality. --Lenny Marks (talk) 23:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I have a question. How can I provide citations or references for something that frankly doesn't exist? There is not any product available for purchase or to be manufactured that is called a fully automatic stun gun. The notion that I have to disprove something that is imaginary is quite unbelievable. I am looking for guidance not for an argument. Brb232 (talk) 12:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Charitable Events: Suggested Topic for the Page
Is there a way to add a paragraph to this page for the charitable events the club has done in the communities it is active in? Here are a few examples: https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2013/10/bikers_help_raise_money_for_po.html https://magicvalley.com/brother-speed-toy-run-best-charity-event/article_a0cb8e0a-d2fd-52ac-89ff-d2c9ab0d6749.html https://www.hillsboronewstimes.com/news/bikers-bring-toys-for-hillsboro-kids-families-in-need/article_b4c1b036-af83-58f4-aefc-7ba4480c514c.html https://www.kmvt.com/content/news/Brother-Speed-Motorcycle-Club-purchases-toys-for-the-Christmas-Council-565819971.html https://kobi5.com/news/local-motorcycle-club-buys-toys-for-children-117531/ https://www.nrtoday.com/news/motorcycle-club-to-hand-out-toys/article_dc2a46f2-765f-11ed-9f8a-a3e944840e2e.html In light of all the negative things that are listed on the page, there are many positives that the members of this club have done for their communities. Any suggestions or guidance would be appreciated. Brb232 (talk) 14:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)


 * @Brb232 Yes, I will take a look later and see if I can add. Lenny Marks (talk) 14:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. If you have any questions, please let me know. Brb232 (talk) 13:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Mr. Marks, have you had any time to look through this? We just finished our annual toy run here in Oregon and another chaper of ours in Idaho did as well. Between the two chapters we helped raise over $70,000 in donations to support our communities. Here's a link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/623341555899692/permalink/890758612491317/ Thanks for your time and Happy Holidays! Brb232 (talk) 14:41, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I hope your drive went well. There's no greater thing we can do than helping others. Unfortunately Facebook is not a reliable source to use for content but some of the other sources you provided above should be looked at for possible content. We have to make sure that the content carries due weight. We cannot simply add it because it is positive. The "so called" negative content was not added because it is negative. It was added because it carried due weight in reliable sources. I suspect if Lenny found anything they would have added but maybe they have been unable to. I'll take a look see myself. -- A Rose Wolf  15:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your time and I am not trying to change history, rather have it be accurate and all inclusive. Including only negative points of a story is like only looking at the dark side of the moon. I provided many links from news sources, see the beginning of this thread. I can find many more if you would like. I only referenced Facebook as this just happened, not trying to justify them as a news outlet. Brb232 (talk) 15:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I hope you both had a nice Christmas. I haven't heard back from you regarding you looking up some of the sources I posted here or through your looking, but here's another instance. https://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/local/brotherly-love-local-motorcycle-club-brother-speed-donates-3-000-to-help-veterans/article_40c47ab8-9f8d-11ee-9af4-a393824a88c7.html?fbclid=IwAR1mhAtq5kI2I_aOXKh4f-WHorPa_66VSW7zM7Ab-7AUu5UIocS6mNJVUWo. BSMC has has some checkered moments in history, but has had a far more positive impact in their communities and members' lives. I truly hope you can simply create a topic as I have asked for, as it is citied many times as I have illustrated. I can find many more if it would help. Regards Brb232 (talk) 14:17, 26 December 2023 (UTC)