Talk:Brothers Grimm/Archive 1

Untitled
one example, from the first couple of lines from amongst many inconsistencies, anomalies, conjectures, etc.; is simply: "Well, was he Jacob, or Jakob?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.19.217 (talk) 20:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

"the brothers Grimm"?
Out of personal curiosity... why are they always referred to as the Brothers Grimm instead of the Grimm Brothers? English is not my first language, so is there some special language rule I'm missing here? --Dez26 15:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The frontspiece of their book http://www.archive.org/stream/kinderundhausm00grimuoft#page/n1/mode/2up refers to them as the Brüder Grimm, or Die Brüder Grimm in some earlier printings. I'd guess that's how they referred to themselves. -- 204.255.8.253 (talk) 17:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

It's not really correct. But just accepted. See here: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/251938/the-grimm-brothers-or-the-brothers-grimm-the-sisters-bront%C3%AB-or-the-bront Rooiratel (talk) 11:50, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Were original stories 'grimm'?
For example, I heard the original Cinderla the glass slipper was made of fur. And that the sister cut their feet in order to fit in. And that the prince killed the sisters later on.

-G

Sleeping Beauty
So why is Sleeping Beauty in this list when the article says it's one by Perrault?
 * Maybe because they didn't invent the tales? Most fairy tales and folk tales are pretty old and have multiple origins (with different versions in different regions). Even the article you quote says "[e]lements of the story are contained in Giambattista Basile's Pentamerone (published 1634)" -- 63 years befpre Perrault's publishing.
 * This problem partially arises from the idea of intellectual property being pretty modern. Even the famous book by Knigge on manners suffered from problems regarding the identification of authorship as it was edited and re-released by several different authors -- and heavily modified as well. In this case we know the author but we can't clearly identify his original work.
 * Folk tales like these are de facto in the public domain. Everyone can write their own version down without having to pay anyone royalties. They predate the modern idea of intellectual property, which is why there are so many different variants of them around (and it gets worse with the local, less well-known folk tales). -- Ashmodai 00:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Less well known is the Brothers Grimm's work on a German dictionary, the Deutsches Wörterbuch.

Do we know whether theirs was the first in Deutsch?


 * Hah! Probably not. -- Ashmodai 00:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Old women and witches
Another apparently common theme in the fairy tales is that old women tend to be actual witches who can put spells on people and commit other assorted acts of evil. Does anyone have any explanation for this? I'd be very interested to see the meaning behind it. -Branddobbe 6:19 PM PST, Dec 8 2003

Try consulting a dictionary of mythological archetypes: old women and what they represent. Shadow and Evil in Fairy Tales by Marie-Louise von Franz might have something. --ArcticFrog 20:00, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)ArcticFrog

It's not too different from the "old witches" in modern-day kids movies -- just that they usually don't have any actual magical powers, they are just stereotyped to be evil. -- Ashmodai 00:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The Grimms had a personal feeling towards all women since the unexpected death of their father that may have a lot to do with why all the females are usually either evil or helpless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.203.208.84 (talk) 00:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Grimm's Law reference
Hey what about a reference to Grimm's Law. -- 203.150.193.11

That's only Jakob. -- Toby Bartels 01:20, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Collecting information
I'm trying to gather as much information on the Brothers Grimm as I can, and if anyone has any information at all (e.g. what inspired their work, what other little known accomplishments they had etc.) I would be very grateful!

[I'm trying to collect info for a report next wednesday!]

-John Schellhase 9/23/04 4:06 pm

I am just a high school English teacher, but I see in my notes from college that many, if not most, of the tales published by the Grimm brothers were actually the stories they asked German country-folk to tell them in order to listen to and record the actual phonemes/pronunciations/colloquialisms the German people used. The reason they did this was to have their subjects tell stories, thus relaxing them and freeing them from self-consciously pronouncing (and changing) their every-day spoken language.

As their studies on the German language became more complete, the Brothers Grimm published the tales.

Can anyone with more scholarship than I speak to the veracity of this history and perhaps make a change to the main page?


 * edit* I now have a wiki-account.

--Matt Ford, 8/23/05 3:30PM

Copyvio?
This page currently smells quite badly of copyvio -- I think it's the references to tables or pictures that aren't there. When did those get in? I would revert, but a lot has happened since then, so I am wondering if an admin rollback is more appropriate. Also, the stuff is credited to the person who appears to have added them in. Strange. Will be back in a few days to see what happens. -- Jacqui ★ 05:11, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually unsnarled the edit history and, I think, removed the right things. Please correct me if I am in error. -- Jacqui ★ 05:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm quite offended that my editions have ust been removed! Noone discussed this with Jacqui and yet she removed it anyway? I'm new here, and I didn;t realise that was how it works. My work definitely does not violate any copy rules!! I wrote that as a summary of my dissertation! The picture references were mine too, but I didn't realise the pictures didn't appear on the Wikipedia pagem if I'd had a chance to read this comment before the whole lot was removed I could have either removed my references to my pictures, or added in the pictures I used, which are, incidently, all properly referenced, and I've put my sources in the 'literature' section of the page .. so how can I be accused of "copyvio"??? I'm quite offended actually! I'm new here and thought I was making a useful contribution, since my text focused on aspects not previously given attention on the page! Please tell me what more you expected, so that I can avoid my work siply being rudely disregarded like this in future!||||Clare

Indeed - I've just noticed that someone has also viewed my referencing as 'over the top' and removed them! Well .. if I don't reference my work its copyvio, but if I do they get removed anyway .. what's going on here?!! Clare


 * Clare1fielder, I'm sure Jacqui meant no harm, but I can understand you feeling that way. It's quite easy to restore the removals though. Here is the text by that was removed from the Revision as of 02:56, 2005 October 27, which was added to the article at 15:20, 2005 October 23. I've also added the references that were added at 18:18, 2005 October 25. I'm not a Grimm expert, but I reckon some or all of this could be brought back into the article and wikified. Maybe the references could stay in the Talk, with only one or two in the article. If you have illustrations or pictures that are under a free license, or in the public domain (as a 1905 illustration ), they would be most welcome. -Wikibob 04:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * While this material is interesting and its contribution is generous, it is not very encyclopedic. It really is a history of the analysis of fairy tales, some of which fits the definition of original research. What there is that just describes the historical interpretation of fairy tales should be added to fairy tale. Also, it really should go without saying that all text must be in English for it to have value to readers of English Wikipedia. --Tysto 09:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Political and Ideological Interpretations
author C Fielder 2004

Fairy tales, including the KHM, were originally oral narratives, but now their most common form is written, as different historical periods have seen them transformed to produce versions relating to contemporary social climates, and interpreted from various viewpoints, often underpinned by political assumptions. No single approach offers a ‘correct’ interpretation, as each depends on the context in which it was developed, and most attempt to find meanings compatible with their philosophies. An example of this political colouration occurred in Hitler’s Germany, where folk tales and ‘Volkskunde’ were accommodated to Nazi ideology. This chapter discusses a sample of political treatments of the Grimms’ KHM, to demonstrate another ‘use’ of the tales, which has helped extend their appeal.

Socio-historians have long maintained that stories have context-specific meanings, and that interpretations are determined by the cultures in which they are formulated. Zipes (1975) believes stories’ hidden meanings can be understood by considering the socio-historical influences distinguishing them as a pre-capitalist oral tradition. From his Marxist stance, Zipes discusses the tales’ political symbolism for the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. He explains that this period strongly advocated man’s perfectibility, but believes this was permeated by class bias, disregarding the lower-classes and their customs. As the bourgeoisie established itself, folklore was deemed suspicious and inferior. Because symbolic aspects of class conflict in pre-capitalist stories contradicted the utilitarian principles of the developing bourgeoisie, they were suppressed and made to seem irrelevant. Although a Marxist view, this corresponds to the fact that bourgeois writers vigorously produced moralising stories, advocating compliance to the laws of social class. These ‘Kunstmärchen’, however, borrowed heavily from German folklore. Folk traditions, including the Grimms’ tales, were also employed by other Romantic writers, for example Novalis and Tieck, in their symbolic works, scrutinising the restrictions and hypocrisy of bourgeois codes. The endings of stories were not simply liberating, but illustrated the confines of social mobility: fairy-tale worlds are populated by kings and queens, or peasants and supernatural creatures, but hardly ever by intermediary upper classes; signs of industrialization are rare, and characters and their concerns are portrayed within feudal societies. This is why the ‘Volk’ retell the stories; their ambitions are indulged, allowing them to believe they too could become valiant knights or beautiful princesses (Zipes, 1975).

Zipes (1975) analyses Sechse kommen durch die ganze Welt (KHM 71) from this socio-historical perspective. The story, one of the less well-known KHM, is about a common man who serves in a war and is discharged with very little reward. He meets new friends, each with a special talent, and together they use these powers honestly to earn the king’s riches, overcoming several malicious obstacles and challenges he sets them and finally sharing their wealth so that each may live ‘vergnügt bis an ihr Ende’ (p. 149 ). Class struggle is typical of folk tales, but Zipes explains that in the nineteenth century, following the American and French Revolutions, the quest was no longer for riches, but for an amelioration of social relations. Told from the perspective of the common man, class struggle is evident in this story, illustrated by a ‘commoner’ proving himself equal to a sovereign. The talents and magic powers of the man’s friends symbolise hidden strengths in him and in the peasantry generally, and the story teaches that if such talents are used appropriately, to achieve due justice, the peasantry are invincible, a lesson Zipes (1975) sees in many tales, e.g. Die Bremer Stadtmusikanten (KHM 27). Many KHM, Zipes explains, portray class conflict in light of pre-capitalist society, revealing biases and inequalities of feudalism. He believes stories of the last three centuries, including KHM, preserve designs imitating pre-capitalist societies because they continue to address the circumstances of the people and prevailing ideologies, and therefore continue to be popular.

The early twentieth century saw numerous research projects into aspects of folklore that were not so innately national; the emphasis was on ‘gesunkenes Kulturgut’ (Bausinger, 1994a, p. 13), where culture was important, rather than individual nations. Nazi ‘Volkskunde’, however, did not continue this research. Any nationalistic aspects of earlier stories were merely undercurrents until 1933 when National Socialists discovered folklore as an instrument for educating people in the new ‘Weltanschauung’. The Nazis determined the values of conclusions from folkloric research according to their usefulness in demonstrating the Party’s aims: Panzer’s essay illustrates how dismissively findings were regarded if they contradicted official interpretations, dictated by guidelines in Böhme’s Die deutsche Volksseele (both in Kamenetsky, 1977). Nazism highlighted the existing primary themes and symbols of ‘Germanness’ within the discipline, and Dègh argues the Romantic-sentimental vocabulary, depicting German peasants as bearing Germanic purity, stemmed from the Grimms and their followers. However, Nazi concepts of ‘Volk’ and ‘Gemeinschaft’ differed significantly from those in the Grimms’ writings. Terms common since the days of the brothers were assigned new meanings and semantic accents in Nazi usage (Almgren). The ‘Aufnordung’ of the German people was important in the Nazi effort against decadence. The Reichskulturkammer, led by Goebbels, was established to censor literature, art and music, but also sought to revive Nordic-Germanic traditions including folksongs and crafts, as they apparently exposed true folk heritage. In Frau Holle (KHM 24), the girl’s fall into the well and her journey to Frau Holle’s house was taken to symbolise the path to eternal regeneration and primeval strength (Haacke, in Kamenetsky, 1977). Haverbeck, the first leader of the Reichsbund für Volkstum und Heimat, is quoted as stating that Nazism aimed to capture this folk heritage, the ‘blood and soil’, and mould the homeland culture and future from it (Bausinger, 1994b). The Party was to function as interpreter of the people, and not even tradition was to be allowed to conceal genuine ‘Volk’ identity. Regardless of a custom’s age, Nazism taught that its authenticity should always be questioned; this did not require specialists and scholars, but genuine peasants, ‘authentic’ Germans (Bausinger, 1994b).

The atrocities of the Holocaust demonstrate that Nazi anti-Semitism went far beyond traditional racial conceptions in severity and brutality. This was partly because race was used to explain negative traits; Jews were used as a counter-image from which ‘true’ Germans could be distinguished (Zipes, 1975). This imagery was ‘discovered’ in folklore; an aspect hitherto unacknowledged, not only emphasising national characteristics but demeaning non-Germanic parallels. The Party funded editions of KHM and distributed the stories widely in appealing, low-priced books. As Kamenetsky underlines, folk tales were ‘transformed into an ideological weapon…to serve the building of the Thousand Year Reich’ (1977, p.170): to this end representations of defeat and doom were converted into symbols of fertility and national longevity. Interpretations of the tales were both specific and general, for example, Aschenputtel’s general character (KHM 21), was valued as the ideal truthful and devoted Germanic woman. In Allerleirauh (KHM 65) the different dresses have specific meanings; the golden dress symbolises a sense of being, the silver one inner spiritualism and the starry one knowledge about natural laws (Fischer). In Von dem Machandelboom (KHM 47), the exact phrase ‘so rot wie Blut’ apparently exposed knowledge of racial origins, and the father’s ‘racially inferior’ second wife has an ‘evil spirit’ which is punished (Schäfer, in Kamenetsky, 1977). These examples highlight the nature of meanings Nazi folklorists found in the Grimms’ tales, and show the stories’ malleability, which has aided their lasting appeal, but the totality with which such interpretations were applied and propagated cannot be demonstrated within the scope of this dissertation.

Some critics blame KHM for the atrocities that occurred under Hitler. Nissen reports Birkenfeld’s critique of folklore’s relationship with Nazism, stating German affection for fairy tales depicting cruelty as one cause of characteristic immorality and the development of the concentration camp extermination method. Nissen explains, ‘Grausamkeit im Märchen, speziell die “Grimmschen Märchengreuel”, wurden in Zusammenhang gebracht mit den Greueltaten, die sich auf unserem Boden und in unserm Volk zugetragen hatten’ (p. 59). Birkenfeld was not alone; Maus wanted to discontinue ‘Volkskunde’ in universities, due to its entanglements with Nazi ideas (Bausinger, 1994a). McGlathery (p. 6) believes that growing up during the French Revolution heightened the Grimms’ interest in the Germanic past and that excessive nationalism motivated them to collect KHM, and sees these patriotic stories as inspiring Nazi ideology and, consequently, atrocities that occurred under Hitler’s rule. In fact, directly after the Second World War, Allied governments banned KHM from being published and read in schools because of their ‘contribution’ to Nazism; this resulted in many folkloric debates and research pursuits being rekindled (O’Neill). Despite the number of critics holding this belief, the claim that the Grimms are in someway responsible for anti-Semitic, homophobic and other nationalistic policies of the National Socialists seems a largely exaggerated assumption, which is likely to have been influenced by the fact that KHM were used in propaganda to support Nazism. Indeed, several scholars, more plausibly, believe the Grimms’ motivation for collecting tales was not excessive nationalism, but literary and historical enthusiasm. Michaelis-Jena explains, for instance, that Jews depicted in KHM are typical of folk literature, and were not intended to exemplify racial inferiority. Dègh (p. 332) agrees the Grimms cannot be blamed for KHM being used as National Socialist handbooks, and Beek explains that ‘[v]ölkisches Vokabular, nationalistische Expansionsansprüche und rassistische Überheblichkeiten wurden in das Werk der Brüder Grimm hinein interpretiert, denen es doch nur um die Bewährung des kulturellen und insbesondere des sprachlichen Erbes der Deutschen gegangen war’ (p. 10).

Zipes concludes on the KHM’s popularity: ‘the reason for our continual return and attraction to folk and fairy tales: breaking the magic spell in fairy realms means breaking the magic hold which oppressors and machines seem to hold over is in our everyday reality’ (1975, p. 135). As discussed here, KHM have been employed to support and illustrate various politics and ideologies, and their adaptability is confirmed by the numerous interpretations formulated. Hence, alongside Zipes’ suggestion that the tales’ popularity arises from satisfying dreams of freedom from social restrictions, their openness to interpretation is also important in explaining their enduring appeal. Kamenetsky (1977) concludes that the ethnocentric Nazi view of folklore suppressed studies of universal and international topics and scholarly aspects of ‘Märchenforschung’. However, Nazi reappraisal of German folklore and use of KHM as tools for converting people to Nazi world-views, undeniably succeeded in bringing the treasures of what would otherwise have been an antiquated collection of Nordic-Germanic folk stories back to people’s attention and back into contemporary culture, thus helping to revive and prolong the appeal of the tales.


 * I agree with the above. I understand that the Grimms fairy tales were touted in a nationalistic manner and were printed in greatest numbers in Germany after German unification, that is after 1870, when Germany was under the rule of a reactionary, repressive, highly militaristic regime. However, the Grimms lived and published long before this happened, during the Early Romantic period, and were motivated by that Christian egalitarianism characterized much of the literature and indeed, the mood, of that period -- "We have all one human heart," as Wordsworth's poem said. The Grimm brothers really cannot be held responsible for the brutal excesses of Bismark, social Darwinism, pseudo-"scientific" racism, and imperialism of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centures (not to even mention Hitler). In any case the greatest contribution of the Grimms is not the fairytales, that was a sideline, but their enormous contributions, along with those of other scholars, to philology and linguistics -- particularly their discovery of the Grimm soundshift law. (Nineteenth Century Anti-Semitism had the greatest vogue in Catholic Austria and France, no?)


 * As for Zipes, though I admire him and think he is very worth reading, he tends to be a bit reductive and to ignore historical context somewhat in his interpretation of Fairy Tales. For example, the theme of the poor peasant or girl who becomes rich is not personal to Anderson and Grimm, but occurs in virtually all of nineteenth century art and fiction (think of Dickens and Balzac), and could be called the great theme of the era. The excellence and appeal of Grimm and Anderson is in the way in which they handle such themes, not in their using them.96.224.206.36 (talk)July 20, 2008 —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Psychological Interpretations
author C Fielder, 2004

From the early twentieth century, psychologists have studied folk tales, regarding them as ‘Träger menschlicher Weisheit und Wahrheit’ (Lutz, §3) and attempting to find meanings in them relevant to contemporary living. The emergence of Freud’s psychoanalysis sparked studies into symbolism and meanings in the Grimms’ ‘Märchen’, based on the principles of dream interpretation. Since then several schools of thought have been dominant at various times, but the most recent psychological treatments of the Grimms’ tales have reverted to Freudian analysis. This chapter provides a review of the main ideas of psychological interpretations and attempts to explain, from a psychological viewpoint, why the Grimms’ fairy tales have been, and continue to be, so popular.

The first significant psychological examination of folklore was Wundt’s Völkerpsychologie, which concentrated on primitive peoples’ tales. Wundt reports that mythological characters typical of primitive fairy-tale fiction symbolise natural events, such as the changing of seasons. Drewermann acknowledges the need to appreciate tales’ mythological origins in interpretations: he refers to characters in KHM who embody mythological symbols, for example the sisters Schneeweißchen und Rosenrot (KHM 161) embody winter and summer respectively, and the prolonged sleeping of Dornröschen (KHM 50) and Rapunzel (KHM 12) is symbolic of death. Shortly after the Grimms published KHM (1812), investigations into meanings and symbols in the stories began. Psychological treatment of folklore took off during the 1900s, when Freud (1856-1939) published his theory of psychoanalysis, provoking interpretations of KHM from this perspective.

Freud theorised that personality consisted of the ‘id’ (seeks pleasure and avoids pain), ‘superego’ (drives moral guidance adherence to social norms) and ‘ego’ (arbitrates demands of id and superego). If the superego judges id impulses as unacceptable, they ‘müssen unterdrückt, verdrängt oder geleugnet werden’, but ‘wie alles in den Untergrund Abgedrängte, entwickeln sie dort eine unheilvolle, das innere Gleichgewicht empfindlich störende, Aktivität’ (Lutz, §11). Although this theory is heavily criticised for lacking empirical support and habitually refuted by psychologists, it provides an excellent basis for interpreting KHM. Freud’s theory of personality with three sub-structures is illustrated in many tales by several characters portraying different sides of one person: ‘Ein und derselbe Mensch, so berichten die Märchen immer wieder, kann gleichzeitig und ineins Mutter und Hexe, Engel und Dämon, Leben und Tod verkörpern und bedeuten’ explains Drewermann (p. 170), noting the example of Rapunzel (KHM 12) whose mother and the evil sorceress are the same person. It can also be identified in stories where the number ‘three’ is particularly important, such as Die drei Federn (KHM 63). It was Freud’s Traumdeutung, however, that had the greatest influence on ‘Märchenforschung’. Freud postulated that dreams originated in the id and indicated repressed fears and urges, unacceptable to the conscious superego (Cardwell). Because fears and urges are often disguised and experienced symbolically to protect the superego from awareness of underlying problems, Freud advocated the analysis of dreams. He also highlighted similarities between fairy tales and dreams, and suggested the tales’ symbolic meanings can therefore be ascertained through the principles of dream interpretation (Michaelis-Jena). Von der Leyen theorised that fairy tales were simply narrated dreams communicated through oral tradition until, in the form the Grimms presented, their original sources were untraceable. Within the psychoanalytic perspective this hypothesis is reasonable, but due to the number of transformations fairy tales have undergone over time, even before the Grimms and their contemporaries began collecting them, it is impossible to trace their real origins and judge the truth in this idea.

Figure 2: Illustration of Guerin's Le Petit Chaperon Rouge (c.1905), from Zipes (1993, p. 367).

According to Freud’s analysis, towers or pencils in dreams are phallic symbols and doors or tunnels vaginal symbols, indicating hidden sexual fears or desires; likewise large, powerful animals often represent father figures or unresolved Oedipus complexes (Reber and Reber). Using such principles, Drewermann interprets the bear in Schneeweißchen und Rosenrot as an overtly masculine sex-symbol, embodying the sisters’ premonition of their future lovers; when they ‘den “Bären” mit seinem “dicken, schwarzen Kopf” “zur Tür” hereinkommen [lassen]’ it is ‘ein phallisch-koitales Symbol’ (Drewermann, p. 37). Away from Freudian interpretations, which are steeped in sexual urges and connotations, several versions and translations of the stories have been accompanied by illustrations expressing the frequency with which these connotations are recognised by readers. Figure 2 for example, is from a French version, and depicts intimacy and longing as the girl appears unafraid of the wolf and is smiling seductively.

Figure 3 is the cover of a modern version, which is retold erotically; hence the picture explicitly portrays sexual attraction between the three characters. As these illustrations demonstrate, even those unfamiliar with Freudian ideas find sexual hints and meanings in KHM, which goes some way to supporting interpretation of the tales using psychoanalytic Traumdeutung principles.

Figure 2: Cover illustration of Loumaye's L'histoire vraie du Petit Chaperon Rouge. From Zipes (1993, p. 12).

Literary criticism after the Second World War reflected the political division of Europe; existentialism was dominant in the ‘free world’ whilst Marxism reigned in Eastern Europe (McGlathery). Neither ideology was particularly interested in folklore ; instead the main approach to ‘Märchenforschung’ came again from psychology, from a neo-Freudian perspective. Jung (1875-1961) moved away from Freudian psychoanalysis due to disagreements about overemphasis of sexual drives, and adapted the theory to stress other aspects of experience. This seems a sensible move, as relating all psychological experiences and problems to unconscious sexual urges seems exaggerated and highly unlikely in light of empirical research. It is equally as implausible to imply that every KHM contains hidden sexual fantasies. Instead, Jungian theory emphasises the collective unconscious and symbolic nature of dreams, although analysis is centred on life experience, not unconscious urges. Jung viewed fairy tales as ‘spontane Selbstaussagen der Seele’ (Gerstl, p. 20) and believed messages appeared in symbolic forms in dreams and ‘Märchen’. Among the symbols he documented are birth, death, and natural objects such as sun and water (Gerstl). Lutz clarifies some symbols’ traditional meanings, for example geese (e.g. in Die Gänsemagd, KHM 89) ‘galten von alters her als besonders kluge Vögel’ (§111), they also symbolise luck in marriage. She goes on to explain the connotations of the donkey in Hans mein Igel (KHM 108), which symbolises humility in Christian mythology. Although the development of the Jungian viewpoint made the interpretation of fairy tales a matter of interdisciplinary interest, inspiring works from psychiatrists, e.g. Heuscher, and depth-psychologists, e.g. Dieckmann, it eventually served simply to encourage Freudian critics back to the study of folklore (McGlathery).

It was Bettelheim who really restored the dominance of Freudian analysis in psychological treatment of folklore. Aside from personality structure and dream interpretation, Freud’s theory details ‘Oedipus complexes’, the incestuous feelings young boys develop towards their mothers and rivalries with their fathers for their mothers’ affections. As children’s personalities develop, they progress through psychosexual stages and the associated anxieties. Psychological perspectives draw on this when interpreting KHM; Lutz describes how in Die Gänsemagd, the princess’ misfortune stems from her thirst and desire to drink from the waterfall, i.e. her desire for ‘oral’ satisfaction, symbolising fixation at the oral stage of development. Similarly, in Schneeweißchen und Rosenrot ‘[a]lle räumlichen Angaben ließen sich…als Zonen einer inneren Seelenlandschaft und als Stadien eines inneren Reifungsprozesses auffassen’ (Drewerman, p. 52).

Bettelheim focuses on what KHM reveal about sexual maturation and children’s struggles to understand themselves and their environments as they develop superegos. He believes children find the information they seek about themselves and their culture in the tales: ‘[a]pplying the psychoanalytical model of…human personality, fairy tales carry important messages to the conscious, the preconscious, and the unconscious, on whatever level each is functioning at the time’ (Bettelheim, p.6). This is Bettelheim’s rather convoluted way of stating the general assumption that individuals’ deepest experiences and problems are universal and, having them as motifs, the stories speak simultaneously to all levels of personality, as several writers (e.g. Gerstl, Lutz) have acknowledged. The stories can, therefore, just as easily reach the naïve minds of children, promoting moral development, as entertain adults and provoke discussion. Gerstl explains that the agreement of folk stories with children’s uneducated thought, assures fairy tales have long-lasting impressions. If stories are broken down, it is easy to see that they express man’s deepest wishes, hopes and fears simply, with ugliness turning into beauty, poverty into riches and the weak ultimately triumphing, that is, expressing these key experiences in a way accessible to children (Michaelis-Jena). Röhrich also stresses that, although these kinds of images may seem unbelievable or even brutal, they ‘[werden] von den Kindern gar nicht so empfunden’, in fact, children find it ‘selbstverständlich, daß der Märchenheld den Drachen oder den feurigen Hund erschlägt. Keinem Kinde würde es einfallen, die armen Riesen etwa zu bedauern’ (Nissen, p. 60). Bettelheim sees fairy tales as giving the message ‘that a struggle against severe difficulties in life…is an intrinsic part of human existence’ but that problems are surmountable if faced courageously (e.g. Hans mein Igel, KHM 108). Chapter four discusses violence and cruel images in more detail.

Many scholars’ ask why children prefer, and are more satisfied by, KHM than other types of children’s literature. This relates directly to the present aim of explaining the appeal of the Grimms’ ‘Märchen’? The view maintained by Bettelheim appears fairly credible and sees the tales’ covert psychological properties as providing an answer. He explains that growing up involves ‘[O]edipal dilemmas, sibling rivalries…feelings of selfhood [and] moral obligation’, which are all covered in fairy tales. Aside from Freudian overemphasis of sexual drives, the ultimately convincing conclusion of psychological interpretation is that KHM typically present these situations and themes concisely and simply, without superfluous detail, so children can perceive them in their most essential forms, creating rich images to learn from, without complicated storylines to confuse them. The tales appeal to all ages, as the symbolism can be read on many different levels and readers simply perceive the level most applicable to their own lives. Röhrich agrees, regarding fairy stories as mirrors, in which everyone sees their own face, that is, their own personality. In contrast modern children’s literature is rarely relevant to readers’ lives and unhelpful in coping with problems and anxieties (Bettelheim), therefore heightening the appeal of the Grimms’ fairy stories. (author C Fielder, 2004)

References from Clarefielder
§	Almgren, B., ‚Literatur im Dienste der NS-Propaganda’, http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de, accessed 30 December 2004. §	Arndt, E.M., in Fragmente über Menschenbildung, eds. W. Münich and H. Meisner (Langensalza, 1904) §	Bausinger, H. ‘New Folk Ideology and Folk Research’ in in The Nazification of an Academic Discipline: Folklore in the Third Reich, eds. James R. Dow and Hannjost Lixfeld (Indianopolis: Indian U.P., 1994a), pp. 11-34.

§	Bausinger, H., ‘Folk-National Work During the Third Reich’, in The Nazification of an Academic Discipline: Folklore in the Third Reich, eds. James R. Dow and Hannjost Lixfeld (Indianopolis: Indian U.P., 1994b), pp. 87-97.

§	Beek, W., ‘Die Brüder Grim und die deutsche Politik’, Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte: Beilage zur Wochenzeitung ‚Das Parlament’, 1 (1986), pp. 3-16.

§	Bettelheim, B., The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1987)

§	Birkenfeld, G., cited in Nissen, 1984

§	Birkhan, H., ‘Die Verwandlung in der Volkserzählung: Eine Unersuchung zur Phänomenologie der Verwandlungssymbolik mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der Märchen der Brüder Grimm’, Dissertation; University of Vienna, 1961.

§	Böhme, K., Die deutsche Volksseele in den Kinderdichtung (Berlin: Verlag der deutschen Arbeitsfront, 1939)

§	Cardwell, M., The complete A-Z Psychology Handbook (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1996)

§	Curtmann, N., Lehrbuch der Erziehung und des Unterrichts (Göttingen, 1890)

§	Dégh, L., ‘Reply: Folk and Volk’, The Journal of American Folklore, 93/369, pp. 331-334.

§	Dieckmann, H., Märchen und Träume als Helfer der Menschen (Stuttgart, Bonz, 1966)

§	Drewermann, E., Rapunzel, Rapunzel, laß dein Haar herunter: Grimms Märchen tiefenpsychologisch gedeutet (Munich: Deutsche Taschenbuch, 1993)

§	Fischer, H., Weistum und Wissen in Märchen der Brüder Grimm (1992), cited in Nissen, 1984

§	Gerstl, Q., Die Brüder Grimm als Erzieher: Pädagogische Analyse des Märchen (Munich: Franz Ehrenwirth, 1964)

§	Grimm, R., ‘Im Dickicht der inneren Emigration’, in Die deutsche Literatur im Dritten Reich, eds. Horst Denkler and Karl Prümm (Stuttgart: Reclam, 1976), pp. 406-426.

§	Haacke, U., ‘Germanische deutsche Weltanschauung in Märchen und Mythen im Deutschunterricht’, Zeitschrift für deutsche Bildung, 12 (1936), pp. 603-616.

§	Heuscher, J.E., A Psychiatric Study of Fairy Tales (Springfield, IL: Thomas, 1963)

§	Haverbeck, W., ‘Arbeiter und Soldaten in einer Front’, Volkstum und Heimat, 1 (1934), pp. 10-11.

§	Hess, J. A., ‘Volk und Führer’, The German Quarterly, 11/1 (Jan 1938), pp. 4-7.

§	Kamenetsky, C., ‘Folklore as a Political Tool in Nazi Germany’, The Journal of American Folklore, 85/337 (July-September 1972), pp. 221-235.

§	Kamenetsky, C., ‘Folktale and Ideology in the Third Reich’, The Journal of American Folklore, 90/365 (April-June 1977), pp. 168-178.

§	Kaminksi, W., Von Zauber der Märchen: Ein pädagogischer Leitfaden zu den Sammlung der Brüder Grimm (Mainz: Matthias-Grünewald, 1997)

§	Köster, H.L., Geschichte der deutschen Jugendliteratur (Braunschweig, 1920)

§	Krawczyk- Wasilewska, V., ‘Oral and Visual Folklore as an Expression of the Global Fear’, Consciousness, Literature and the Arts, 4/3 2003, http://www.aber.ac.uk/tfs/journal/archive/krawczyk.html, accessed 16 January 2005

§	Laquer, W., ‘Interpretations of Terrorism: Fact, Fiction and Political Science’, Journal of Contemporary History, 12/1 (1977), pp. 1-42.

§	Leyen, von der, F., Das deutsche Märchen (Düsseldorf: Eugen Dietrichs, 1964)

§	Lüthi, M., Das europäische Volksmärchen (Tübingen, 1947)

§	Lutz, C., Psychologisches Wissen im Märchen (Fellbach-Oeffingen, 1988)

§	Mallet, D.H., Kopf ab! Gewalt im Märchen (Hamburg, 1985)

§	Maus, H., ‘Zur Situation der deutschen Volkskunde’, Die Umschaue Internationale Revue, 21 1946, pp. 349-359.

§	McCallum, R., ‘Approaches to the Literary Fairy Tale’, in The Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales, ed. Jack Zipes (Oxford: Oxford U. P., 2000), pp. 17 – 21.

§	McGlathery, J. M., Grimms’ Fairy Tales: A History of Criticism on a Popular Classic (Columbia, SC: Camden House, 1993)

§	Michaelis-Jena, R., The Brothers Grimm (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1970)

§	Nissen, W., Die Brüder Grimm und ihre Märchen (Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1984)

§	O’Neill, T., ‘Hüter der Märchen - Die Brüder Grimm’, http://www.nationalgeographic.de/php/magazin/topstories/1999/12/topstory3.htm accessed 30 December 2004. Originally published in National Geographic Deutschland, December 1999

§	Panzer, F., ‘Sage und Märchen in ihrer Bedeutung für das Leben der Nation’, Dichtung und Volkstum, 2 (1935), pp. 203-245.

§	Perrault, C., Histoires au Contes du Temps passé avec des Moralitez: Contes de ma Mère l’Oye (Paris: Coignard, 1697)

§	Piaget, J., The Child’s Conception of the World (Totowa, NJ: Littlefield & Adams, 1965)

§	Reber, A.S. and Reber, E., The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology, 3rd edition (London: Penguin, 2001)

§	Röhrich, L., Märchen und Wirklichkeit, 3rd edition (Wiesbaden, 1974)

§	Schäfer, F., ‘Das Märchen vom Machandelboom’, Hagal, 14 (1937), pp. 106-113.

§	Schleiermacher, H., cited in Platz, E., Schleichermachers Pädagogischen Schriften (Langensalza, 1902), pp. 240-472.

§	Solms, W., Die Moral von Grimms Märchen (Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 1999)

§	Schäfer, F., ‘Das Märchen vom Machandelboom’, Hagal, 14 (1937), pp. 106-113.

§	Szonn, G., Entwicklung und Reife im Märchen (Fellbach-Oeffingen: Bonz, 1989)

§	Tatar, M., The Hard Facts of the Grimms’ Fairy Tales (Princeton, NJ: Princeton U. P., 1987)

§	Traxler, H., Die Wahrheit über Hansel und Gretel (Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowohlt, 1984)

§	Von der Leyen, F., Das deutsche Märchen (Passau: Eugen Dietrichs, 1964)

§	Waldinger, E., ‘Von der Heimatkunst zur Blut- und Bodendichtung, The German Quarterly, 13/2 (March 1940), pp. 83-87.

§	Weigel, E., Tugendlehre, cited in Moog, W., Geschichte der Pädagogik (Leipzig, 1928-1933), p. 303.

§	Wolgast, H., Das Elend unserer Jugendliteratur, 6th edition (Leipzig, 1922)

§	Wundt, W., Völkerpsychologie (Leipzig, 1914)

§	Zipes, J., ‘Breaking the Magic Spell: Politics and the Fairy Tale’, New German Critique, 6 (1975), pp. 116-135.

§	Zipes, J., ‘Foklore Research and Western Marxism: A Critical Replay’, The Journal of American Folklore, 97/385 (July-September 1984), pp. 329-337.

§	Zipes, J., The Trials and Tribulations of Little Red Riding Hood, 2nd edition (New York: Routledge, 1993)

§	Zipes, J., The Brothers Grimm: From Enchanted Forests to the Modern World, 2nd edition, (New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2002)


 * Here ends the text and references by Clare1fielder. -Wikibob 04:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Brothers Grimm
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  16:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

One example
"It has long been recognized that some of these later-added stories were derived from printed rather than oral sources."

A reference has been added to this. It asserts that "one example" is a given work. Unfortunately, this is inadequate. One added tale would not just "some".

Furthermore, the "derives" is ambiguous. As the sentence is phrased, it would imply that the Grimm Brothers took the tale from the book. But their first version contained "Bluebeard" which derived from Perrault's work, but did so by the tale being drawn back into the oral tradition, and they took it down from there.

Grimm's Sources
"Grimm's Fairy Tales comprises some 200 stories, most of which were adopted from oral sources." &mdash; Kathleen Kuiper, Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of Literature, Springfield, MA, Merriam-Wesbter, 1995; p. 494. Ugajin 20:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

"Other men contributed to the collection as well, of course, but the method of their involvement was different. Rather than transcribe the stories from storytellers or share ones they remembered from childhood, male contributors&mdash;who were often scholars and bookish professors&mdash;dug up old manuscripts in libraries and copied out forgotten tales to assist the brothers in tracing the history of the genre." &mdash; Valerie Paradiz, Clever Maids: The Secret History of the Grimm Fairy Tales, Basic Books, 2005; p. xii. Paradiz's book is somewhat lacking in objective tone; she focuses on a contrast between female (oral) and male (literary) sources. Yet the key point, that some of the later tales in the Grimms' collection stem from literary rather than oral sources, comes through. Ugajin 22:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The obvious next question is how best to integrate this view into the main article.

And most iportant: not a word about Gian Battista Basile the firs western autor to collect fair tales, Cinderella, rapunzel and so on... My english is to elementary but if this is a serius encyclopedia some citation abaut original work of G.B.Basile can't be omitted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.31.205.153 (talk) 10:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect facts
It seems like this page has quite a few items incorrect, especially the growing up in NYC and being born in Boston. Dumbinic 17:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)dumbinic —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dumbinic (talk • contribs) 17:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC). YOU ARE SO RIGHT! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.22.149 (talk) 04:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Mothers
The Grimms idealized mothers as well. Tales that originally featured cruel mothers got transformed into tales featuring wicked stepmothers. The section about female villains needs some work. Goldfritha 23:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:1000-DEM-OBV-178x83.jpg
Image:1000-DEM-OBV-178x83.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 01:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

RE criticism of Brothers Grimm methods
I was surprised to see the assertion that the Grimm's methods have been discredited, as the eminent Joseph Campbell offers high praise for their methods in his essay which is included in the 1976 edition of the Complete Grimm's Fairy Tales. The article references a 1983 book by John M. Ellis (available through Amazon.com only in a "library binding" through 3rd party resellers). Have Mr. Ellis' conclusions been widely endorsed to the point of reflecting a general consensus? 216.251.130.93 17:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Jacob VS Jakob
What is the true spelling of Jacob Grimm. Jacob or Jakob? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.118.208 (talk) 06:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

This is due to a consonant shift in German that took place early in the 20th century, where C was replaced by K for the most part when it was a "hard" c (i.e. pronounced as a "k"). So Carl became Karl and cities like Cassel became Kassel (an exception is the city of Coburg). So, when the Grimms were born, it would have been Jacob but it has been transliterated into the moder German usage of Jakob. There are similar changes in US English--for example the almost universal shift of -burgh to -burg (excepting Pittsburgh, which had to fight to keep it that way).Kgilbert78 (talk) 14:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

"Jacob and fetus Wilhelm Grimm..." fetus?
This is graffiti right? It's right there in the first line of the overview. I don't want to mess anything up so I figured I'd just point it out and someone else can edit it if I'm right. *shrugs* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.83.114 (talk) 04:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandals have deleted large sections
Over the past month or so it appears vandals have removed Biography, Tales and Miscellaneous sections from the article. Could someone fix this please? -84.223.120.228 (talk) 08:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. Some bits have disappeared. Such as the "History".  ·Add§hore·  T alk /C ont 08:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

And I have tried to restore the two sections Biography and Tales that were deleted by 92.8.195.96 on 14:30, 25 March 2008, but please check if I missed any. -84.223.72.181 (talk) 11:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC) "They made it a more violent story. But then disney fixed it up and made it a children movie."-Ok.Besides that, vandals also decided to 'include' their opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.115.254.87 (talk) 17:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Apply for protection
This article appears to be a frequent target of vandals. If there are any regular editor I suggest applying for protection.

"Michael Alexander Nenasheff" appears in Google only in this article. More vandalism? You didn't sign, so I don't know when you made this request.

Google may not be the best place to search for a 17th century editor. If you have a library card, you probably can search your local library online. My own card is expired. Bustter (talk) 13:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

this sentence kills me
"Snow White is said to be transferred onto the screen by the Walt Disney Animation Studios in yet undefined future." I could fix the grammar but I see no citation; assuming this refers to a future remake of Snow White by Disney (hard to be sure what a crappy sentence means).

While imdbpro has a 2010 film in development, I do not have access to confirm that this is a Disney project. There is this:

"August 01, 2007: Francis Lawrence is off to work on "Snow and the Seven," Walt Disney Pictures' live-action East-meets-West take on the "Snow White" fairy tale. The story, a fantasy adventure, centers on a British girl being raised in 19th century Hong Kong. Yuen Woon-ping is acting as the fight choreographer on the movie, which is being executive produced by Gunn Films' Ann Marie Sanderlin along with Anthony Wong and Dede Nickerson."

that's a Hollywood Reporter story, but it's behind a paywall and its 2 years old... HR cites tons of films in development, but never reports when they die on the vine.

found this: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1349376/ (director Francis Lawrence)

"Snow and the Seven (details only on IMDbPro)" 13:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * seven samurai..? And everybody was..kung fu figh-ting!! "S.W. and the Huntsman"? 76.218.248.127 (talk) 19:17, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Chronological vs. Historical Order
Section "The Tales" says

The legends are told in chronological order of which historical events they were related. Then they arranged the regional legends thematically for each folktale creature like dwarfs, giants, monsters, etc. not in any historical order.

How can the tales be in 'chronological order' but 'not in any historical order'?

Does anybody have the book that is supposedly the reference for this claim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.99.162.99 (talk) 23:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The scary fairy tales.
Here are a few faire tales from jakob and wilhelm grimm 1. Little red cap. 2.the rabbits bride 3.six soldiers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.17.70.225 (talk) 21:19, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Adaptations
At the end of the "Books and Film" section is a brief list of Disney movies, but it should be noted that there have been many other adaptations of the stories. Furthermore, a list of adaptations in popular media could warrant its own list-class article, which really should be wikilinked from the article about their collection of folk-tales, rather than this biographical article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brendanmccabe (talk • contribs) 22:13, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

philology/linguistics
In the lead I have replaced 'linguistics' with 'philology':  This now reflects the diachronic/synchronic distinction outlined in the Philology entry. Spicemix (talk) 12:03, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

This article scants the tremendous contributions of the Grimms to philology (historical linguistics). It was for this that they were known in their lifetimes, not the fairytales. Mballen (talk) 18:46, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

"Charles Perrault" needs a link
Second paragraph, first section, I fixed all the problematic grammar in the paragraph, but there is a Wikipedia entry for Charles Perrault, I don't know how to put in a link, would somebody please do that.

Thanks Yo YoMenashe (talk) 19:46, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Cheers having found in the lead and the 2nd section his name, its now wfyed. Regards Aba Abani79 (talk) 07:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Wrong facts
Disney wasn't inspired at all by the Brothers Grimm for Cinderella, since Disney's Cinderella is based on Perrault's version: the pumpkin, the fairy-godmother and the glass slippers... this is the same, and different from Grimm's version written afterwards. Check the Cinderella wiki page. In fact in history, Disney hasn't been more inspired by Brothers Grimm than by Charles Perrault, I don't even understand why they are considered as their main inspiration in this article. Anyway, for Cinderella at least it's wrong, shouldn't we change something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.240.72.102 (talk) 15:53, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree that Cendrillon/Cinderella was first published by Perrault. So maybe the assertion at the start of the article that Cinderella is due to the Grimm's should be deleted. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 17:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The Perrault version is significantly different, and not as popular as the Grimm version. They collected, rewrote and popularized - as the lead mentions. The body of the article mentions that much of their work was derived from Perrault and links are given. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * they popularized, that is uncontroversial - but the ip is saying the Disney version which is mentioned in the last paragraph in the lead ,is more dependent on Perrault than Grimm. Having just listened to Marina Warner speak about the Grimm version 'no wand, no pumpkin, no rat or lizard, no godmother, no fairies' - maybe the sentence coud be altered to something like   " ...and have inspired  filmmakers ; -  including Lotte Reiniger, and Walt Disney, with films such as ..' but take out mention of the Cinderella  film , just leaving the other two disney films. Also it seems Reinigers version didnt hide away from such things as  the sisters cutting off their toes and heels to fit in the shoes as Disney did. Sayerslle (talk) 20:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, okay, yes that's true. I'm on break at the moment and only dipped in quickly. Go ahead and delete or reword or whatever. I think the rest is well covered in the body - and honestly Cinderella will make it's way back into the lead, regardless of how many times we delete. Also, some of this information should go to the Cinderella article. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:48, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Do we have a ref for Reiniger so it can be added to the legacy section? The lead should reflect the body. Thanks for tweaking, btw. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I got the mention of Lotte Reiniger and her 'brilliant 1922 version' of Cinderella, from Marina Warner's series 'Grimm Thoughts' which is running on BBC Radio 4 this week and next week. the mention of reiniger is in episode 2, 10:16 .   Sayerslle (talk) 00:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for this. When I get my hands on it again, I'll have a look in her book too. She's very good. This explains why the high views here recently. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Brothers Grimm
In English they really have to be 'the Grimm brothers'. It is slightly fetishist convention to slavishly follow the German word order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.68.162.125 (talk) 14:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. They are much better known as the Brothers Grimm, even in the English-speaking world. It seems a more appropriate title, even if it is an impure translation. - - - -

Its obviously to avoid saying the Grimm Brothers which would sound like the grim brothers which would not be intended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.225.169 (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

two notes
Hello, I have two notes:
 * as far as volk, naturpoesie and kunstpoesie are not germanisms in the English language, they should start with a captial letter.
 * "Less well-known is the brothers' work on a German dictionary, the Deutsches Wörterbuch on which they began work in 1838. Not until 1852 did they begin publishing the dictionary in installments.[38]" In my eyes this sentence is wrong if you apply it to the german speaking world. So this sentence needs a context, because of course dictionaries are not as well known as fairy tales, but for a dictionary it has a certain recognition.

hope this helps. regards Catfisheye (talk) 08:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, thank you. I should use the capitals for the nouns. The sentence about the dictionary is one of the few leftover from the page before the rewrite and yesterday I was thinking it needed to be recast. I would like to check the sources first though to see how they characterize it. Btw - I did base the titles on a source, but thanks for the clean-up anyway. Truthkeeper (talk) 11:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

REQ: Punc Fix
Could somebody please fix the punctuation in the phrase "Scholars such as Heinz Rölleke however say the stories are an accurate depiction...", which should be "Scholars such as Heinz Rölleke, however, say the stories are an accurate depiction..."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.68.83.82 (talk) 14:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Reworked the sentence. Thanks for posting. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

German Sagas
I would like to add this link to a German website that contains all the tales from Deutsche Sagen (German Sagas), but I can't edit. Deutsche Sagen is under 'Collaborative works'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.129.48.229 (talk) 23:28, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thinking about this. Not sure it's necessary, but if anywhere in "External links". Truthkeeper (talk) 23:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

reference to add ?
Under heading Themes and analysis, there is the statement "Instead the brothers added an introduction with cautionary advice that parents steer children toward age-appropriate stories. Despite von Armin's unease, none of the tales were eliminated from the collection,"

Is it possible to add a reference to which version or edition of the KHM this introduction appears in (and ideally the relevant quotation?)

thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.169.40.6 (talk) 11:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Anti-Sematism
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/grimmtmp/175.txt

Title of the story, "The Jew in The Rose Bushes"

Where a Jew steals some money.

Worth a mention in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.167.138.130 (talk) 04:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It´s a wiki - don´t hold back with the shoah-business! 176.0.76.49 (talk) 03:56, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge with The Grimm's fairy tales
Too short for a standalone list. All these titles are already mentioned in the target article Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)


 * There is an article already: Grimms' Fairy Tales. I'd oppose moving to here. This is the biography. Victoria (tk) 17:24, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I second that oppose. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I've redirected it. Victoria (tk) 23:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 10:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2017
The opening line sites the brothers as "The Obama Brothers...". It should read, I believe, "The Grimm Brothers...". Jtynan7 (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ -= there has been a lot of vandalism to this page - Arjayay (talk) 20:41, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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slightly misleading re. their names
At the start it says " Jacob Ludwig Karl and Wilhelm Carl...". There's no Grimm there and the similarities of Karl and Carl made assume that was their actual surname in some odd manner, and the Grimm was applied for some other reason (an honorific?). Perhaps their names in full might be an idea, then again maybe I'm the first and last person to trip over this. 92.2.138.171 (talk) 20:23, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Among the best-known
The lead says "they were among the best-known storytellers of folk tales", which is accurate. A qualification –"they were among the best-known storytellers of German folk tales" – is not needed and is misleading, suggesting as it does that the Grimms' stories were of exclusively German origin (they were not, as described in Brothers_Grimm), and that the Grimms are perhaps no better known than some other storytellers of German folk tales. The effect is faintly ludicrous, as if the second sentence of The Beatles were changed from "They are regarded as the most influential band of all time" to "They are regarded as Liverpool's most influential band of all time". Ewulp (talk) 00:04, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes agreed. I meant to post to talk about it, but got distracted. Also having "German" next to "Cinderella" doesn't work, because the Grimms took most of Charles Perrault's stories in Histoires ou contes du temps passé, which is explained in the text. Thanks for removing it. Victoria (tk) 00:08, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I too agree. They are not just the best-known German folk tale collectors…they’re just folk tale collectors.Kurisumasen (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The Song of Hildebrand and Hadubrand and the Wessobrunn Prayer
It is sometimes confusing to think that, "is it The Song of Hildebrand and Hadubrand and The Wessobrunn Prayer or The Song of Hildebrand and Hadubrand and the Wessobrunn Prayer?" Kurisumasen (talk) 22:30, 13 January 2022 (UTC)


 * When it was written per the source the text said,.
 * Now the text says
 * I'd prefer to put it back to original text as written, which is simpler, but happy to discuss. Victoria (tk) 22:46, 13 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Ps, please be careful w/ the many edits that are being made. Engvar is changed in this edit, this edit, and this edit, changes meaning of a sentence written per the source. If Engvar is to be changed it needs consensus, and then to be done throughout. I'd like it stay as it is. Victoria (tk) 22:54, 13 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Still, do you think that it is what I asked about? --Kurisumasen (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Oh, I realised that it is the Song of Hildebrand and Hadubrand and the Wessobrunn Prayer in a section. Kurisumasen (talk) 19:00, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Jacob both became reclusive and continued the dictionary
One line should be “became increasingly reclusive and continued working on the dictionary”, not “became increasingly reclusive. He continued working on the dictionary”. How could he do both in two sentences? Kurisumasen (talk) 10:43, 17 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The current edit reads: "Wilhelm died of an infection in Berlin on 16 December 1859, and Jacob, deeply upset at his brother's death, became increasingly reclusive. He continued working on the dictionary until his own death on 20 September 1863." Your edit reads: "Wilhelm died of an infection in Berlin on 16 December 1859, and Jacob, deeply upset at his brother's death, became increasingly reclusive and continued working on the dictionary until his own death on 20 September 1863." The sentence runs on a bit, and it somewhat suggests that Jacob's work on the dictionary, like his reclusiveness, was a reaction to Wilhelm's death, when in fact it was a continuation of work both brothers had been doing for years. As for your question: People often do two things in two sentences, dozens of things in dozens of sentences, and hundreds of things in hundreds of sentences, don't they? Ewulp (talk) 05:20, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

the Grimm Brothers' parents and grandparents?
Did any of the stories that they collected come from their parents? Did their parents even tell them any fairy tale stories when the grimm brothers were kids? 50.44.226.47 (talk) 20:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

… eventually ?
The last sentence of the lead section seems to imply that the Grimms sanitized the tales after Bruno Bettelheim published his psychoanalysis thereof. It would perhaps be better to rephrase ?

Noliscient (talk) 10:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)


 * good point. at least, there should be a citing for how the Grimms themselves may have eventually sanitised their works, and a mention of which ones, perhaps? Stjohn1970 (talk) 14:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Grimms Law?
No mention of "Grimm's Law". Also each brother has a page so the links should be more visible. Exoir (talk) 09:17, 4 September 2023 (UTC)


 * 5 minute 169.159.175.218 (talk) 15:57, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Grimm's law is mentioned in the Jacob Grimm article. This article is more of an overview about the two brothers, but I'll look into some of the sources and maybe add something here. Victoria (tk) 21:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)