Talk:Brown-eyed soul

Dubious list
What is this.... a joke???? Tony Bennett is a pop/jazz performer and a good one. Connie Francis is a pop/rock & roll(oldies)/Italian ballad singer of the early 60's...Bloodstone is an African-American R&B group (google their cover) The same with War led by Lee Oskar - please see their videos on youtube... Jim Croce is a singer/songwriter. If you are going to list anyone... Here's a nice temporary list.... Tierra, Natalie, Frankie J, etc... Bloodstone and War may have been listed because they had some Latin influence...then if that's the case - might as well list African-American artist, Debelah Morgan (Dance With Me)...which would make this list seem questionable.

"Soul" is not a term to be thrown about loosely. According to the Rolling Stone Illustrated History Of Rock last published in 1993. "Soul" probably began as rhythm and gospel and the earliest artists were Sam Cooke, Ray Charles, Clyde McPhatter & Ben E. King who were both lead singers of the Drifters, and the Isley Brothers. "Soul" music came from the African American gospel churches (e.g. the original version of "Shout.") So crooners that were on this list were omitted because they have nothing to do with "soul." The others I left on are actually doo-wop artists not "soul artists." Doo-Wop is an older style that owes a lot more to the Mills Brothers, The Ink Spots, The Orioles and The Ravens.

Deleted Dean Martin and some others as well... If you are going to list a crooner such as Martin...then list Frank Sinatra and also Sammy Davis Jr.- then the entire list will be bogus...Dean Martin's idols were Bing Crosby and Perry Como - incidentally you might as well include the latter since he too is Italian... Really - Martin specialized in big band standards and pre-rock pop music.

Frankie Valli shouldn't be deleted - after all they had 2 number ones on the R&B charts in 1962 but technically they were a doo-wop act.

I don't want to come in and start editing it...So please check your sources before putting stuff in...."Use Wikipedia to start."

Added Amanda Perez to the list.

20:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Definition?
What exactly IS the page supposed to be about? Why is Jennifer Lopez on ANY sort of "soul" page? Is it because she is Latina? If so, then why not Eydie Gorme, who actually had some soul sound besides being Latina to boot? I would put her plus The New York Dolls in there. The Dolls started as a Latin/Soul band, check their history. Their original drummer was Colombian, a guitarist was Sicilian, and another guitarist is/was Sfaradim. I would say there is no "soul music" anymore, the person's ethnicity was never the defining factor, and samplers/"beats" come more from Avant-Guarde. The shrieking of "neo-soul" comes from the likes of Yoko Ono, more AG. Twisted Sister could fit in the catagory of BES as Dee Snider is heavily gospel influenced(ex-choirboy)("Iam, I'm me!") and has gospel turns and codas in his music as well. Don't forget Eddie Ojeda who is Latino.

IMNSHO, the topic is a waste of space.JBDay (talk) 18:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with you
I put the first comment on the board...and I believe this page should be deleted...Need real proof...There are Latin R&B Singers, even though some of these bands listed are actually either latin rockers or latino garage bands....And the majority of the Italian groups here are doo-wop artists which is entirely different from "soul." It requires a more structured style of singing... Less free-form... However I disagree with what you consider 'soul.' - since your arguments are really subjective. I don't consider power chords a part of soul.. or 'blame it on the bossa nova' as soul music...or any of Yoko's singing - that is probably your opinion. Singing in a gospel choir doesn't make one a soul singer... If one applies that logic - then Jimmy Swaggart probably qualifies as well...

Since today's soul or the better termed (R&B) is probably more or less hip-hop based. Soul music emerged with The Civil Rights Movement in the late 50's through the 60's. It was the music of the churches in Black America that was incorporated with the r&b music of the time. The best definition comes from the Rolling Stone's History Of Rock & Roll last published in 1993.

20:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Damning with faint praise
I think the catagory of "Brown-Eyed Soul" is more or less an attempt to provide a catchall for several FORMERLY related and FORMERLY existant styles. I do not see J.Lo as being BES as I do not consider samples/vocoders soul. If someone such as her who has more in common with a terrible lounge singer or female impersonator is BES, then a band which has real roots in Italian/Latin/Gospel such as TS belongs there as well. Reread my post and you will see that I was NOT saying that Yoko Ono is any form of soul. I was saying that the modern stuff with samples that is passed off as soul/r'n'b is more like her than real soul music. Being black doesn't make soul music. As for soul's origins, it basically was an amalgam of Italian/Latin/as well as black. I don't agree with The definition you mentioned. I was in the thick of things back then as a child and I know that Italian opera/choral music had an influence on soul. The Latin thing as well. The race thing came about because of segregation, now all are free to be aurally assaulted by screeching melismatics backed by computer thuds regardless of ethnicity. Hiphop comes from deejays who were into Kraftwerk, a most non-soulful thing if I've ever heard one. Jimmy Swaggart is more soulful that that anyday. The race thing is a dead end as far as what actually matters in music. I would also consider Vanilla Fudge to have been Brown-Eyed Soul. The topic is frozen in time and ought be deleted.JBDay (talk) 23:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Response
Do you have any proof on that....I never read anything that Italians/Latins invented soul music... As far as I'm concerned-it came from the Gospel World. I would like to read that.... Again 'soul' is subjective not objective....Music that came from the church that was integrated with the so called 'race' music at the time became soul music....Today's R&B is more hip-hop/electronic/sample based rather than 'soul' based...There are some 'soul' singers around..I would definitely use the term R&B more so than 'soul.' The music existed before Vanilla Fudge, The Rascals, etc... IT was with Ray Charles, Sam Cooke, in the late 50s.... Charles was ostracized for bringing church music into the secular world...

There is a complete article on 'soul' music - and if you insert what you have down...it would most likely be challenged...I get my information through history books and I aced my two classes on rock & roll history in college. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.210.66 (talk) 00:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Hip-Hop - it came from the Jamaicans who emigrated to New York City...The Kraftwerk-type beats came a few years later in the 80's...(around 1982)... The Jamaicans introduced the art of talking over music beds...and the rest is history...The first rap songs were done generally over disco beats not electronic beats... The first so-called rap hit was done over a disco/funk beat (Nile Rodgers/Bernard Edwards). There was no previous history before that maybe with groups with a jazzier inclination such as the Last Poets....etc.

I agree with one thing...this article does needs to be deleted.

00:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Expert Needed
Flagged this one - need someone to look over this article...Any music columnists/historians out there?

02:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't you mean "ExpertS?"
I'd say that a definition of just what BES is has to be established. Until then, and possibly even after, it will be like the proverbial blind men asked to describe an elephant. They all describe it differently, as they each have hold of a different body part. It will be like those who falsely say that rock and roll came directly from country and blues, rubbish that ignores historical movements of both culture and population as well. I'm sure those who conflate anything done by blacks as r'n'b/soul/whatever will take over the topic and ruin it. Original soul was gospel played profanely which would make Jerry Lee Lewis a soul pioneer if only as a precedent. He got kicked out of church for playing gospel as boogie, would any of the "beatz"-promoting Kraftwerk fans allow him that? I seriously doubt it. He's Creole, and so is soul.JBDay (talk) 04:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Correct
Experts.... Again this topic is subjective it is only opinion that drives this article...Actually this article with correct information should be a subset of a broader category such as "rhythm and blues." About the origins of Rock N Roll - there are far too many roads that led to the development it wasn't just country and blues... Regarding Jerry Lee Lewis - there is nothing I know that he was Creole - where is the source of that information. Also where is the source of the information that "Soul" is Creole. Labeling things need to have some evidence.... Obviously if not...then it is just an opinion just like this article. Jerry Lee Lewis...was a lot like his sun label mates - Elvis, Carl Perkins, and his southern cohorts such as Buddy Holly - doing the so called 'race' music at the times - because they loved it....So Elvis must've had soul as well because he did an entire gospel album in 1965....That's why I need credible evidence.

Conveniently ignoring the Civil Rights Movement in America and the segregation problem in the South seems to be part of this reasoning. If "People Get Ready" by the Impressions or "A Change Is Gonna Come" by Sam Cooke is not convincing enough for anybody and claiming that Deep Purple on another article (Rhythm & Blues) as part of an R&B argument.

I have no problems of flagging this article and the others for "experts" to review.

04:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Definition
Well, there is plenty on the net that JLL is Creole. Elvis was Melungeon, a creole (small "c") group in itself. "Race Music" was basically a marketing gimmick, and those you mentioned admitted to diverse influences. It's not the old white liberal/black nationalist argument that blacks started something and whites stole it from them, that is rubbish. As for Elvis, he had more soul than any hundred melismatics shrieking over computer thuds nowdays.

No ignorance of those two perfect examples of SOUL on my part. I'm very aware of the CRM amd segregation, you might say I was closer than most. I would claim Deep Purple as R&B far more than I would shrieking melismatics backed by computer thuds with mumbling, scowling, grunting fast-talkers as same.

Soul itself was the proverbial sea that takes up into its bosom all the rivers that run into it and dissolves them into one.JBDay (talk) 17:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Wrong...wrong..very wrong
A serious misunderstanding here (or perhaps a hoax of sort). Besides the obvious absurdities (Tony Bennett? Connie Francis?) there is a complete misuse of the term at work here. Brown-eyed soul refers exclusively to a rock sound created in East L.A by Chicano artists, beginning circa early 1960's. Much of what the term refers to is covered in the Chicano Rock entry, which has some good bibliographic sources. It was DJ driven like other local soul styles, in LA largely through radio stations like KRLA. In the Rough Guide reference, we find "The kind of music popular in Chicano East LA is best heard on Rhino's three-volume Brown Eyed Soul series, which mixes vintage tracks by local acts with R&B and soul oldies from all over that enjoyed perennial popularity in the neighborhoods." I have the Rhino set, which is predominantly Chicano groups, plus some African American artists performing in the East LA style.

This entry needs a serious clean-up; as is, there is a rather racially offensive tone to it, intentional or not. Boodlesthecat (talk) 03:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Brown-eyed-soul specifically refers to Latin soul music
The user above is correct. Several individuals continue to insert unsourced information which suggest that the term "brown eyed soul" is equally applied to soul music produced in Latin American and Italian American communities. However, "brown eyed soul" specifically refers to Latino soul music. It was popularized during the 1960s as a way to describe soul music groups which emerged from Latino communities (especially southern california). According to "All Music Guide to Soul: The Definitive Guide to R&B and Soul" (By Vladimir Bogdanov, p.VIII), "Brown Eyed Soul" is described as:

"Brown-Eyed Soul

Much like Britain's Northern soul community, the Latino population of southern California fell for soul music and initially imported many of its favorite songs, but the community also fostered a fertile base of artists by the mid '60s. Unlike the sound of boogaloo/Latin soul (based in New York City), early brown-eyed soul owed little to traditional Latin music and was rarely performed in Spanish. Instead, rock bands like Cannibal & the Headhunters ("Land of 1000 Dances") and Thee Midniters-inspired by '50s Latino rocker Richie Valens-earned national recognition playing anthemic rock & roll with an R&B edge. Smooth Chicago soul and Motown hits were big crowd favorites at dances during the early '60s (alongside a rare local sensation like Brenton Wood). When the East L.A. community began gradually moving from energetic R&B to romantic soul, the result were some of the sweetest soul music heard during the late '60s and '70s. Another wing of the brown-eyed soul crowd was influenced by Chicano, the Latino civil-rights movement emphasizing heritage and cultural pride. As a result, bands like War, Malo, El Chicano and Tierra followed Latin-rock breakout Santana into the nation's cultural consciousness. Brown-eyed soul anthems kept edging charts during the mid '70s (a good example being Bloodstone's "Natural High"), but rarely breached the national radar after 1980. Rhino Records' three-volume series "Brown Eyed Soul:The Sound of East LA" remains the definitive document of all imported hits and homegrown talent associated with the style."

Because Italian American soul musicians are of white non-Hispanic descent, they'd more accurately fit under the blue-eyed soul label. For instance, The Rascals, whose members are primarily of Italian descent, are regarded as one of the most popular blue eyed soul groups of the 1960s. Additionally, Italian American singer, Timi Yuro, is recognized as one of the few female blue eyed soul singers during that period. SamChambers (talk) 08:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

"Blue-eyed" soul?
Probably less than half of non-hispanic people have blue eyes. To refer to non-hispanic, non-African soul as "blue-eyed" is racial stereotyping. Therefore, if "brown-eyed" derives its meaning from a racist stereotype of non-hispanics, it's a questionable term. Historically, DJs in LA may have used the term, and the history of racist vocabulary is a valid subject, but this article suggests that the term is still acceptable. It is not a widely-used epithet, outside of the LA-based Chicano music industry, and its use should be discouraged. Why are some people so obsessed with racial identity? It's music. Nobody really cares about the artist's genetic pedigree.77Mike77 (talk) 14:28, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

These labels are not meant to be taken so literally - a good number of Latinos have blue eyes too. 64.134.31.156 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)