Talk:Brownie (folklore)

Brownie points
- I'm really not sure about this, but can anyone confirm that "brownie points" is a phrase actually derived from the brownie creature? I've always figured it came from the name "brown-noser"... And I just asked my mom and she said she thought it came from the level or grade system used in Girl Guide Brownies.

bad_leprechaun


 * I don't know which came first or which is more common, but I have definitely seen both meanings in use: the negative meaning of Brownie points from brown-nosing, and the positive meaning of brownie points from the Girl Guides. --Woggly 12:05, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

first-person used? Original research?
"He could be seen supposedly only by those who had the second sight; yet I have heard of instances where he made himself visible to people not so gifted."

What's with the use of the first person here? Is the contributor claiming himself as a source? This is hardly acceptable by Wikipedia standards.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of the mythology/folklore in this article is presented as absolute fact, which is not acceptable either.

I would agree with these concerns. Even if we were to accept this (sexist!) use of the word 'he', it would have to be consistant with the first paragraph. IceDragon64 (talk) 23:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

total skite
This article is garbage and needs to be completely rewritten. Could someone please tag it for improvement or deletion?

You would have to give us some idea why it is 'skite' before it would be reasonable to threaten such a drastic course as deletion. IceDragon64 (talk) 23:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Elves?
Brownies generally are not Elves. They are likely from Celtic mythology not Scandinavian. Also, Brownies are generally short whereas Elves are not. The Celtic version of the Elf is the Sidhe. - Hesselius


 * The term "elf" is used much more generically than you are aware. Goldfritha 19:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I am aware of its usage, however, the usage of 'elf' for Celtic creatures is incorrect. It is OK using the tern 'elf' outside of an encyclopedia article, however, we shouldn't use 'elf' when talking about Celtic creatures in an encyclopedia. An explanation of the modern usage of 'elf' should be left in the Elf article. DR. Martin Hesselius 15:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually they are probably a Germanic Creature as they seem to be Lowland Scots, but I do agree that Elf is used inappropriately on online. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 13:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

If anybody refers to them as elfish, then they are probably mistaking them for the house elfs of the harry potter series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.90.235 (talk) 08:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahem, you should distinguish between the word 'elf' and the word 'elfin' or 'elfish', which has certain qualities which may be reasonably applied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.208.53 (talk) 23:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Citations?
Brand in his description of Zetland observes

that not above forty or fifty years ago, every family had a brownie, or evil spirit, so called, which served them, to which they gave a sacrifice for his service; as when they churned their milk, they took a part thereof, and sprinkled every corner of the house with it, for Brownie’s use; likewise, when they brewed, they had a stone which they called ‘Brownie’s stane’, wherein there was a little hole into which they poured some wort for a sacrifice to Brownie. They also had some stacks of corn, which they called Brownie’s Stacks, which, though they were not bound with straw ropes, or in any way fenced as other stacks used to be, yet the greatest storm of wind was not able to blow away straw off them.

1. Who TF is Brand? 2. Where did this quote come from 3. Why has this uncited quote gone unnoticed for so long? Bifgis 04:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Near as I can tell, the only other place this is quoted on the web is here - it's an ebook of The Fairy Mythology by Thomas Keightley (1870). The quote (in the section called Orkneys) is the same, attributed to Brand, "Description of Orkney, Zetland, &c. Edin. 1703." Keightley doesn't say who Brand is, though. -Tocky 04:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * A bit more Googling, and I'm relatively sure it's this guy, John Brand. Keightley makes a few references to Brand's Popular Antiquities. I'd say it's a pretty sure bet that this quote is from him. -Tocky 07:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Browns 1950 Logo.PNG
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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Browns 1950 Logo.GIF
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Uncited quotations?
A good deal of this text bears striking similarity to the section on brownies in "The Etymological Compendium". Plinskey (talk) 23:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you add the citation to the parts you are noticing? Kingturtle (talk) 05:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The following passage occurs in the third paragraph of the "Tradition" section as well as on p. 408 of The Etymological Compendium: "he would often bestir himself on behalf of those who understood his humours, and suited themselves thereto" The link above should jump to the relevant page in the book. There may be other commonalities; I haven't re-reviewed the contents since my original post last year. Plinskey (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC).

Brownies are not urisks, glaistigs or gruagachs! Campbell reference
If anyone does get round to cleaning this up, the Campbell reference (pp194-9) I've added has a several pages on the Scottish view of the urisk and friends in the 19th century. It appears to be a very different beastie to the brownie, the urisk lives in rivers/waterfalls in the wilderness instead of in houses, and in much of the Highlands was not considered a home help.

Campbell distinguishes the urisk from the Glaistig (p155-184, also called Gruagach in Argyll) and the Gruagach of Skye (a male equivalent, pp184-6) and the brownie (pp186-194). He says "The term Brunaidh, signifying a supernatural being, haunting the abodes of the affluent and doing work for the servants, seems to have made its way into the Highlands only in recent times and along with south country ideas. It is generally applied only to a big corpulent, clumsy man, ' a fine fat fodgel wight,' and in many districts has no other reference. Its derivation is Teutonic and not Celtic, and brownies are mostly heard of in places to which, as in the south of Argyllshire, southern ideas have penetrated, or where, as in the Orkneys and Shetland, a Teutonic race is settled." FlagSteward (talk) 01:35, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible Copy Problem Here
Our Lead
 * "A brownie/brounie or urisk (Lowland Scots) or brùnaidh, ùruisg, or gruagach (Scottish Gaelic) is a legendary creature popular in folklore around Scotland and England (especially the north, though more commonly hobs have this role). It is the Scottish and Northern English counterpart of the Scandinavian tomte, the Slavic domovoi and the German Heinzelmännchen"'

From Brownie (Folklore) by Frederic P Miller, Agnes F Vandome, John McBrewster summary at Google Books
 * "A brownie/brounie or urisk or brnaidh, ruisg, or gruagach is a legendary kind of creature popular in folklore around Scotland and England. It is the Scottish and Northern English counterpart of the Scandinavian tomte, the Slavic domovoi or the German Heinzelmnnchen."

These are almost word for word mirrors of each other. Is this book actually being used as a reference but not acknowledged? Or is this just a pull from the Googles books summary/intro? tyvm Pudge MclameO (talk) 08:37, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * See Google Books' summary: the content of this "book" is derived from Wikipedia articles. Nyttend (talk) 03:37, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Keightley's book Work Guide to Gnomes...., etc should be cited as a reference. He is considered an expert on fairy mythology as it was before distinctions between modern incarnations of these myths and their original sources became blurred.

elrondaragorn (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2013 (UTC) elrondaragorn

Regional names
The following sentence in the introduction is obscure and does not seem to be accurate: “Although the name brownie originated as a dialectal word used only in the UK, it has since become the standard term for all such creatures throughout the UK and Ireland.” It appears to be an attempt to summarize a discussion of the spread of similar stories and names for such creatures that appears with citations below, but doesn’t capture that accurately, and seems to be making the odd claim that this myth was known throughout England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but stopped abruptly at County Donegal.

I’ll nix it for now, would be nice if someone who’s confident about the topic wants to add a more precise version of it later. Excessivedetails (talk) 00:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)