Talk:Brownsea Island Scout camp

Peerreview output
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 22:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.[?]
 * As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use th; for example, instead of using January 30th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.[?]
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
 * thanks, but I said I can't find the "th" problem, not there's not a free patch/logo to use, and I'm a poor copyeditor-;)Rlevse 22:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I found the 'th' problem (spelt here 'st'), and the other date things too, so that's fixed
 * The copyrights of the pictures (all of them) need looking into. E.g., IMHO the pic of a posing B-P is not so PD as it is suggested. Perhaps we can find some real pictures? The scouting 2007 logo? How about the (photoshopped) picture of the stone for the infobox?
 * can we have a map of the island/campsite? I recall having seen something somewhere.
 * I'll tweak some more to make the text flow better too. Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 09:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
 * I asked BigDT about the 1907 (BP) pics before I even loaded them. Basically, their age makes them PD. The black/white ones were all taken in Aug 1907. I found someone on flicr who said she lives near Brownsea and am trying to get GFDL release from her. She also said she'll take more photos for us. The problem with the stone image we have is that it's fuzzy and you can't read it. Thanks for all the help, it sure is making things better and faster. That's teamwork!.Rlevse 09:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Good to hear that better (and free from copyright) pictures are forthcoming. I'm looking forward to that. If historic pictures are possible, I recommend the postcard of the real camp, as probably created by B-P for publicity purposes. I found a jpg file on pinetreeweb for it. The only thing I think needs being added is the relationship of the camp with the book: topics are similar, which things were tested, and shown successful (there's a report by B-P on the camp out there), etc Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 22:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC).

Can we now get it to FA?
Yes, Randy, we can. It'll need work, be sure, but it can be done.

The illustrations are all circumstantial: the article is about that one historical camp and we only have the one historic picture. Look here: And as aptly pointed out, the article needs a good readable picture of the memorial stone.
 * APPROPRIATE PICS
 * http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/brownsea.htm
 * http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-pictures2.htm

And some honesty in the copyrights. I'm sure PD-US (that is US copyrights), or PD-OLD-70 (the photographer died more than 70 years ago?) are not the most appropriate tags for a British photograph. If we can get away with non-free historic image and FU, this would be alread good.
 * COPYRIGHTS

Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 22:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * OTHER IMPROVEMENTS
 * See also (better, more): questionable whether Gilwell Park is approriate. From the angle of historic camp, the 17 year later campsite is much less relevant than, e.g., Humshaugh. Perhaps adding some historic events in 1905–1910? Although there weren't any jamborees of supranational scale, there must've been gatherings and campsites? Where did Scouts go for camping? The Scout Bureau got international very early, so there must have been gatherings. And what about other activities B-P did in those early years: he toured the world, visited new camping acitivities, etc, etc.
 * External links: there must be more than one
 * Text flow: hard to define, but I'm not really sure that the sectioning and paragraphing is optimal yet.
 * actually, we have two old pics, but I see your point. We should have BigDT look over our image tags before we submit for FAC and have our final photo set.Rlevse 11:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * additional images of the stone now on wikicommons. LordHarris 09:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Harry. I do like the post box! The new memorial stone pictures are limited in readibility too. Would a picture with the sun on the other side be possible? Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 20:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC).
 * [[Image:Brownsea_stone.JPG|100px]]

Hi, I have added the only other image of the stone I have above. Unfortunately the readibility is again low. In about two weeks Im off to Brownsea and will take my new digital SLR. I will take a few minutes and get some max high res, readable and focused shots of the stone, the camp ground, the came shop, the signs and any other related scout things. LordHarris 17:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * COOL, many thanks.Rlevse 17:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The article is looking good. &mdash; User: (talk) 22:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Good to hear, Harry. We'll give it a few weeks to await your nice pictures. Yes, ERcheck, I agree with you, but would like to suggest to clear the picture problems before going for FA in full. Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 23:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC).
 * Definitely. It will be great to have some free pictures added to the article soon. &mdash; User: (talk) 02:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * With any luck I should be going to Brownsea Island tommorow. However for the last seven days it has rained here in South England. Weather forcasts predict no rain, in which case I should get some photos, but then English weather is far from predictable. LordHarris 13:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * 'If you don't like the English weather, just wait five minutes' ;-) Have a nice trip. Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 15:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC).

New Photos
I went to Brownsea today, despite the terrible weather (lots of rain). I managed to get a few shots of the stone, of the camp ground and one of the church. I was also able to get a shot of the BP memorial. Unfortunately much of the campsite was closed to visitors as they have almost finished building the new Baden-Powell Outdoor Centre. I was able to snap a shot of the visitor centre, it is due to be finished in time for the August Centenary, a National trust volunteer informed me. I was able to purchase a detailed history about the first scout camp, some passages of which I will add to this article, with references later today. The history guide contains lots of info like the names of the scouts as well as a detailed run down of each days activities, the various patrols etc. Would other editors like me to add info like the names of the scouts and the leaders? Anyway here are the best images I was able to take. I was able to get two shots of the actual campsite tent ground (that wasnt under development) though only one tent is present, in one shot in the rearground. Furthermore the distance signpost and the scout flags near the stone have both been taken away until the revamping of Brownsea camp is finished. For now though one or two of these photos might be of use for the article:


 * Way cool. Any info that will add to the article would be good. I'm not so sure that a list of all attendees would be good though, lists are frowned upon for FA. Note the stone says 20 youths attended, but it was really 21 (rather well documented).Rlevse 17:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ive expanded a few sections and added references for what I have added. I have also split the campsite today section into two sections - one that contains all information pre 2000 and one actually about the campsite today. Interestingly I was under the impression that it was 20 scouts who attended. According to Why Brownsea (2007 edition) it states that "there were in fact 20 boys for the whole time with Simon Rodney arriving at the end to collect his brothers, hence the confusion". There appears to be two different sources citing attendee numbers? LordHarris 18:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, some sources say it was really 21, see the refs on the history of the camp. I hadn't stated the version you mention before, maybe we'll never really know.Rlevse 10:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The new photos are great! &mdash; User: (talk) 22:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The 200px pics in the middle and bottom of the article may be standard, but they are so big that IMHO they take over and dominate the article. Rlevse 22:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Most pictures are very useful and illustrative. I'd recommend several also for the Brownsea Island article as well. I moved some pictures around and re-standardized them to 200px width. For people with a 800x600 monitor, that may be relatively large, but it is the WP standard, Randy. Now also having moved and copy-edited some things, I think it balances better than smalls and wides jumbling throughout the article. Randy, what do you think? Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 22:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC).
 * I agree the number of pics and their subject is fine, but 200px is way too big, even if it is the wiki standard. I have my monitor at 1024x768. Pics should supplement the article, not take it over. I also put some in Brownsea Island. I think the reason they dominate in this article is that there are so many that are good for the article. We should reduce the number of pics in the article or cut their sizes if we keep them all. Let's see what develops over a day or two. Actually, I just checked it again and you've changed it since a few minutes ago. I can probably live with it as it is right now.Rlevse 23:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Patience is a good thing. Have a look at your own user preferences, where you now (without explicit thumb image size) can set your preferred thumb size yourself! I can have 250px and you can have 150px! (ps. I surreptitiously already deleted a non-scout pic). Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 23:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC).

Who put up the stone and when
New question. Refs anyone? Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 22:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC).
 * it's in one of the things already ref'd. I'll see if I can find it.Rlevse 23:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Already got it. Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 23:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC).

Coord?
Shall we? Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 22:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC).
 * Yes, I'll work on it.Rlevse 23:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Not too quick: the Brownsea Island article already has coordinates, which in my humble opinion is correct as that is a geographical description. Do we then want to copy those (I think not)? Perhaps the coordinates of the camping fields or the B-P Centre? Or of the historic site (my preference). Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 23:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC).
 * I was going to get the historic site coords.Rlevse 23:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The latitude longitude I just added are for the memorial stone, which is at the north end of the original Scout camp.Rlevse 14:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Source and wikify
I took this from the article page, it needs sourcing and wikification..."As a everlasting mark of the new centuary of scouting the national trust has funding the construction of two new purpose build building for use by the Scouting Association. During the celebrations these two building will be home to a scouting history museam and the second the media centre. (After the celebrations these buildings will revert to being a resource centre). The new Baden-Powell resource centre project also included new washing and toilet facilies for the scout and guide campsite." Rlevse 22:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Isnt this already included in the after 2000 section? LordHarris 00:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty much, now that you mention it. I cut this from the centenary section.Rlevse 01:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This article as TFA for August 2nd?
Seeing as Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell is up for the Today's feature article for August 1st, maybe this page should be requested for August 2nd. It will need a request blurb ready for front page posting before the date can be requested, so if anyone feels they create a good blurb for the Brownsea Island Scout camp article, give it a shot. JQF • Talk • Contribs 22:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Done.Rlevse 23:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Campaigning or camping?
As it's a FA I hesitate to leap in and change it: is "campaigning" in lead para correct, or should it be "camping"? It's linked to Camping. PamD 08:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed, good catch! It did used to say camping. Probably some vandal changed it and we missed his/her change. Thanks for seeing it.Rlevse 09:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, curiously it seems to arrive in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brownsea_Island_Scout_camp&diff=prev&oldid=143578718 ready-mangled (or perhaps that text was lifted from elsewhere in the article?)! Strange things happen. PamD 10:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, then it was just an honest mistake. Thanks for catching it.Rlevse 10:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

THE BOYS!
Recently at H007 I saw a list of the boys at the camp at their patrols. Should we not add the list to Wikipedia? Should someone remember/know it? --Joe


 * A simple list would not be that interesting- it would need to include details. About the best reference I have seen to date is on Johnny Walker's site.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "Would not be that interesting" ! That arrogance leaves me breathless !  That quotation is a personal opinion, not a fact.  *Some* people might find it interesting.  In fact, it was one reason why I visited this page in the first place.  If Wikipedia is to have credibility, it should provide as much (properly referenced) information as possible, or a sign-post to where it can be found - but to do that rather defeats the whole object of Wikipedia as "the source and fount of all knowledge; look no further."...RobinClay (talk) 14:43, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes we should add the list to Wikipedia Hikmat Abdurrahman (talk) 17:04, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Past Tense
Changed the Centenery Section to past tense now that Scouting 2007 is over, unfortunately. I had so much fun ^^ --Joe, 5th August

New Photos
I am visiting the island in early October I will attempt to take photographs of the new scout camp facilities. LordHarris 12:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Outstanding. My suggestion is to load them directly onto commons and license them as GFDL-self or PD. CC is possible too. Or if you prefer, email them to me with a statement as to how you want to license them and I'll upload them and ask for an OTRS ticket. Thanks so much for taking all the photos.Rlevse 12:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * OK will do! LordHarris 22:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No of boys, 20 or 22?
The edit war, of a kind, whether the number of boys was 20 or 22 should stop, Johnny Walker on Scouting Milestones or perhaps in his book explains the whole business. The number was 22, but one of them, B-P's nephew was underage and was not in a patrol. This was resolved recently. Previously people did think there were only 20. The whole story needs to be mentioned but I am too busy right now. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  00:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's 22 if you count Donald BP, 21 if you don't. The "20" comes from a long erroneous roster.  — Rlevse • Talk  • 01:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I have now added the story to the article as it is told by Colin Walker. It was the 4th Rodney Brother (all four sons of Lord Rodney were present) who was not listed by B-P and others earlier. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  23:05, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Brownsea Island
The whole point of editing a Wikipedia article is to "improve" it. This can be done by adding to it - as I have done - OR by tweaking it the way you know how. Simply "reverting" is (a) extremely rude; and (b) does not "improve" the article. It actually detracts from it. See also my "Talk" page, if you can be bothered. ____ RobinClay (talk) 12:29, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

(Moved from my talk page): No, your material didn't "improve" the article because it was poorly done, and if you think I'm rude, too bad, I'm tired of dealing with people who show up on wikipedia and assume we all should just go along with their beginners' mistakes because otherwise we're a bunch of big meanies, and reverting their greatness is a horrible offense. Grow up. Actually, read WP:BRD which means, "bold, revert. discuss." I reverted, and now we discuss. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that your material is a) sourced to a reliable source (and blogs or unsourced fan pages don't count), b) laid out so it doesn't put undue weight to a single topic and c) it isn't my job to fix your mistakes.  Also read about featured articles, which this one is - you can't just go adding unsourced or improperly cited information.  And frankly, no way in my lifetime am I apt to ever visit Brownsea Island, so no, I can't just "go look at it" and yes, proper attribution is needed.  Montanabw (talk)  18:06, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Slow down there a little. WP:CITE says "While you should try to write citations correctly, what matters most is that you provide enough information to identify the source". Seems to have been met here. (While saying nothing about the reliability or appropriateness of the source, or the relevance or due weight of the material.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:40, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, you have a split infinitive there, young lady - remember we're not here to fix your mistakes! ;) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't realise - not that it matters - that Montanabw was young. That perhaps explains a lot - the impatience, the incivility, the arrogance of youth.  I certainly wouldn't describe her(him?) as a "lady". __ RobinClay (talk) 14:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm old enough to be your mommy, sonny boy, hence Demiurge's humor! And beyond that, you are venturing into WP:NPA territory with gender-based comments, so I strongly suggest you drop this line of behavior.  Montanabw (talk)  20:45, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It was Demiurge who said you were a "young lady". I don't know (nor do I care) how old you are, nor what gender.  I suspect you don't know those facts about me, either.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobinClay (talk • contribs) 21:26, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, is clearly a gentleman and a scholar!   Montanabw (talk)  23:29, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I boldly split infinitives! And some of this user's additions were not sourced at all beyond, "look at the photo." This is an FA, and so improperly formatted citations are a red flag on the field.   A polite request HERE about how to do a citation would be better than whining on my talk page that I'm being a great big meanie.  Also, at the user's talk, when Gerda tried to explain things in a gentle fashion (tried gently to explain...  ;-)  ) this editor basically said s/he can't be arsed to learn how to do citations properly and it's someone else's job.  Sorry, but if this user has been around a year and still has this attitude, then I'm getting out the cluebat.  ;-)  Montanabw (talk)  19:55, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Some people have nothing better to do than to criticise; some, to "playing with" material that others have put up. Each has its place (though I'm not convinced about the former).  Some, like me, are quite happy just to provide information.  __ RobinClay (talk) 8:48 am, Today (UTC−6)

Just what is it that is so objectionable that Montanabw reverted "There is also a bust of B-P on the left of the path soon after leaving the ferry pier. " ? Or "Next to this bust is a bronze cast of B-P's footprint" ? These are facts that don't need references, any more than the "fact" of the Commemorative Stone, which is not itself referenced (although the sculptor is). A punter may try to find out about these, and (one hopes) Wikipedia is one of the first places checked. __ RobinClay (talk) 8:48 am, Today (UTC−6)
 * You made a bunch of edits, some with significant problems and it's not my job to sort wheat from chaff. It's your job to do it properly. And yes, " a bronze cast of B-P's footprint" does need a source.  Also read WP:SYNTH.   Montanabw (talk)  20:54, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Note that I removed another user's selective, partial copy and paste of a talk page conversation that was here in its entirety. In doing so, this user also erased material already there (though, I did move it from my talk page, so it could be erased also if that's an issue). The discussion has become irrelevant to actually improving this article, but the history exists for those who may have an interest. A couple comments original to this page were caught in the revert and I am restoring those, with my replies. Montanabw (talk) 20:40, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Bust of B-P
The commemorative Stone is mentioned, without a reference - the reference is to the sculptor. The bust is similarly un-referenced, the footprint has its own page (linked). Images of both can easily be found by a Google search. I know nothing about the bust - its sculptor, its date of unveiling, nor who unveiled it. I concede, "It would be nice..." Perhaps next time I'm there I'll ask. __ RobinClay (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC) --  Gadget850talk 20:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Make it look like the citenews template and not the bare URL and the site appears to be reliable. But maybe show us the text you intend to add as well? Montanabw (talk) 22:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources:-  " While you should try to write citations correctly, what matters most is that you provide enough information to identify the source. Others will improve the formatting if needed."  Which you did.  Thank you.  RobinClay (talk) 5:43 pm, Yesterday (UTC−6)

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"Scout" Camp is incorrect
While I would not change the title of this article, when B-P held his "camp" it was BEFORE there were such things as "Boy Scouts", so it is misleading to call THAT camp a "Scout" camp. It was an experiment; a dummy run, if you like. The "official" FIRST "Scout" Camp was that held at Humshaugh, Northumberland from 22 August to 4 September 1908. By comparison... Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian - See Acts ch 11 v 26  RobinClay (talk) 18:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

MOS review needed
To comply with WP:WIAFA, a MOS review and update is needed here. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:51, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look. --RexxS (talk) 21:38, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I've made a few tweaks. First pass:
 * References: all references now use CS1 citation style consistently per WP:CITESTYLE; all dates are dmy, in line with strong national ties to the UK per MOS:DATETIES.
 * Images: images are illustrative, not decorative and there are eight images in addition to the logo in the infobox, which is toward the upper limit of what can be comfortably fitted into the article, per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE; all images respect users' size choice (no fixed sizes) per MOS:IMGSIZE; all images have valid alt text per MOS:ACCIM.
 * Links: links are well-judged with no 'surprises' per MOS:LINKSTYLE & MOS:EGG; the article Siege of Mafeking is linked twice, but piped to different display text and in different sections – check against MOS:DUPLINK; the only red link is Charles van Raalte and a Google search indicates it has possibilities, per MOS:REDLINK;
 * Numbers: complies with MOS:NUMERAL.
 * Colours: complies with MOS:COLOR.
 * Text size: complies with MOS:TEXTSIZE.
 * That's about all of the usual mechanical checks I'd usually make for consistency and accessibility, but others may wish to do more. There's still the question of prose style, and I'd be happy to take a look at that if it was felt that those aspects should be reviewed as well. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 23:39, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * That's about all of the usual mechanical checks I'd usually make for consistency and accessibility, but others may wish to do more. There's still the question of prose style, and I'd be happy to take a look at that if it was felt that those aspects should be reviewed as well. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 23:39, 29 January 2020 (UTC)


 * In response to a note on my talk page I've made a few, pretty simple copy edits. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:10, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Your copyedit was good. The whole final paragraph needs to be further trimmed; it's mostly based on a promotional source (well, the archive of one). --84.64.247.8 (talk) 17:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

FA concerns
Listing at WP:FARGIVEN; this article has had maintenance tags for almost three years, and relies on dubious sourcing such as britishbattles.com, personal webpages, tourist sites, and similar. The sourcing is not up to FA standards. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I've been involved in work that ended up being the lead on FA rescues but I'm not so sure about taking a deep dive on this one. On those others I said that I wasn't concerned about FA status but enjoyed improving the coverage of the topic. I think that I'd be up for that again but since the issues on this one look more like meticulous FA items I think that my kind of work would be secondary on this one. North8000 (talk) 02:30, 23 May 2023 (UTC)