Talk:Bruce Lee/Archive 1

Personal life
To state it simply and bluntly, this article need a personal life section. Valoem  talk  06:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The Importance of Neutrality

 * Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for objective, neutral content. While Bruce Lee has many followers and fans around the world, these pages should not be used for speculation or propaganda. Please maintain at all times a Neutral Point of View (a Wikipedia policy) when contributing to this article. In other words, please use neutral sentences which can be accepted by all readers, even those who may be critical of Bruce. Moreover, verifiable references (books, documents) should be cited when stating statements which may be considered controversial. Thank you. Shawnc 07:51, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Quite so. We won't let this encyclopaedia article be turned into a fanzine. Fire Star 02:35, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Do you have any proof that the article is false and is not Neutral Point of View ??
 * Look at earlier edits which concluded that Lee could perform heavy squats, even though there was no evidence. Clearly biased and inappropriate. Shawnc 04:53, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Notice: uncollaborated removal or blanking of this section should be considered vandalism, which will be reverted. Shawnc 08:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Bruce Lee is a deity. A tribe in Malaysia worships him and believes he is still alive. This needs to be rewritten or removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.124.45.219 (talk • contribs).

-   - ::That's not a fact until you can provide a reliable source of that claim. Wintran 11:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm almost sure he got that information from Bruce Lee: The Curse of the Dragon (Warner Brothers 1993); which is among the top three Bruce Lee documentaries of all time. 71.124.114.26 00:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)Actually its on The Man the Myth documentary.Il check just to be sure and add it to trivia.

On Facts, Opinions, NPOV
Some underlaying rules from Philosopy 101 may help to clear the air here. First there are two types of knowledge: and Opinions can be either be: or
 * Facts - Substantiated and proven statements. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed.
 * Opinions - A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:
 * Biased - To influence in a particular, typically unfair direction; prejudice.
 * Neutral - Belonging to neither side in a controversy: on neutral ground.

Encyclopedic articles are a way of imparting knowledge to people who may not have formulated their own "Opinions" on a particular subject. To not influence a reader an article should be as neutral as possible. To do this Facts should alway prevail. Opinions are ok as long as they are not biased. If the opinion is contraversial it should be stated.

Ex.
 * Bruce Lee was born in 1940 - FACT
 * Bruce Lee was the best Martial Artist in the world - OPINION
 * Bruce Lee may be consider by many to be one of the world's greatest Martial Artis - OPINION with a NPOV or neutral.

Sources are likewise important from a credibility perspective. A published book usually has more credence then say a web page because journalist usually have to list sources and those sources are usually corroborated. Web pages on the other hand can be written by anyone at any time and can say whatever anyone wants. No proof or corroboration is necessary; so these sources should be considered before they are used as sources.

"If someone tells me a lie and I perpetuate that lie; Am I lying"? Yes, But not intentionally. So, check your sources before you believe them.  Hope this helps FrankWilliams 19:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

JKD and Trditional Martial Arts
JKD can be seen as a natural evolution in Martial Artd development. It's what Thomas Kuhn would call a paradigm shift. It's not that Traditional Martial Arts is wrong and JKD is RIGHT. JKD could NOT exist without traditional MA. JKD is simply a new way at looking at MA that is perhaps more complete and maybe less restrictive. Describing JKD as a "BREAK" from traditional MA can be a bit of a stretch because Bruce Lee did NOT begin from scratch. He used traditional MA as a basis for his theories and concepts. Lee has many times said that he DID NOT invent a new style but in essense reevaluated existing system to bring forth a new APPROACH.

An example of this thinking is the Paradigm shift from Newtonian Mechanics to Quantum Mechanics. It's not that Quantum theory is correct and Newtonian theory is false it's that Quantum theory is a little more complete and can explain a bit more with respect to the subatomic world. FrankWilliams 19:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

This is the protypical "forest from the trees" edit. You are correct, one Classic high school English example of a paradigm shift is Quantum versus Newtonian physics. Unfortunately your definition is, incorrect. Perhaps an even more famous example of a paradigm shift would be a Plolemaic view of the universe versus the Copernican one. An old system (the Sun revolves around the Earth) can be completely obviated by a new one. It's true that one iteration of a paradigm shift can be that a new paradigm is a "little more complete and can explain a bit more" than on old one but that's far from the defining characteristic. In many cases a paradigm shift involves the complete annihilation of a previous POV. In regards to Bruce Lee, simply put JKD DID in fact unequivocably form a "BREAK" from traditional forms in "Martial Artd." There's an unending series of sources but I'll point you an analysis by Sifu James W. DeMile, a former Masters Level instructor of MMA for US Special Forces at Fort Lewis, Washington and former undefeated heavyweight boxing champion in the US Armed Forces. Any court would recognize him as an expert in close quarters combat. In addition Mr. DeMile is a internationally known Kung Fu Master and a first generation student of Bruce Lee. In the following document: http://www.wingchundo.com/default.cfm/PID=1.1.3 it's clear that not only is JKD NOT a "natural evolution" of traditional Wing Chun, but it makes it clear that it was impossible to consider traditional Wing Chun philosophy directly developmentally linked to JKD. In large part because Bruce wasn't himself a master of the style. The elements of Wing Chun were merely the broad starting points of Bruce's "BREAK" from traditional arts which developed into JKD. Without the particular event of Bruce Lee's "BREAK," Wing Chun would NEVER have "naturally evolved" into JKD, had the art been practiced traditionally another 1000 years. Keep in mind also that BOTH JKD and Wing Chun are currently widely practiced today. This is contrary to a defining characteristic of paradigm shift. For example, using your example with the advent of Quantum physics, a serious Physicist does not rely on the Newtonian system to explain the inner workings of atomic structure. A publisher doesn't continue to widely use scribes to create books after the advent of the printing press. All indications are that the OP is correct. JKD is a "BREAK" and new development of martial arts, rather than a "natural evolution" "paradigm shift" of an old one. Obviously the above isn't going into the wiki article, since all I want is for you to retract your misguided remarks from the talk page. Keep in mind that the above ONLY deals with one of numerous (a dozen or more) traditional and street techniques that Bruce Lee incorporated into JKD. Keep in mind that Bruce also encorporated elements of Western Boxing into JKD as well. However, no one would presume to say that JKD is some sort of "natural" evolution of the sweet science of boxing. Let us not be so quick to lump all this together, merely because they are both Eastern arts. We must also be careful not to "overedit." Obviously many of the reports about Bruce Lee are amazing but they ARE largely substantiated. Because a man is extraordinary, like Ali or Jordan, that doesn't preclude his extraordinary feats from being fact versus fiction —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.185.113.183 (talk • contribs).


 * Response: The very first sentence of the comment was:  JKD can be seen as a natural evolution in Martial Arts development.  It does NOT say a natural evolution of Wing-Chun which is just one style amongst thousands.  I retract NOTHING.  Current mixed martial arts prove that hybrid systems of which JKD is a precursor; is an endpoint that would have occured with or without Bruce Lee and JKD.  That fact that Lee came along and was light years ahead of current MA thinking accelerated what was already going to happen.  Bruce Lee has also been considered by UFC president Dana White as the "father of mixed martial arts" for the very same reason.  Anyone who understands JKD and the development of Martial Arts in the last 30 can plainly see the pattern.  Also sign please sign your articles.FrankWilliams 18:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

a bad injury
In the movie about him he gets a severe back injury alledgedly while "defending" his teaching of martial arts. Did that really happen or is it just BS?

Bryan Livingston


 * Thats just BS Bro,i forgot what really happend to him,somthing with a weight excersis i read,but deffenitly no fight.


 * sebastiaan D. Mook

He did a back excorcize called a 'butterfly' wrong and was confined to a metal back brace for six minths. During this tie he wrote out his philosophies on the martial way.

some dude


 * That's incorrect. The exercise that injured Bruce's back is known as "good mornings". It is actually an excellent back exercise, but Bruce did it without warming up and using heavier than normal weights, causing severe injury to himself. Many bodybuilders will not perform this exercise precisely because of this risk, and the fact there are other back exercise that will achieve the same results.

Back to the orignal statement: Bruce did injure his hip pretty severely after a bout with a Thai Boxer. Bruce had essentially beaten the guy and when Bruce went to help the guy up the boxer kicked him in the hip. Lee compensated for this injury but it was never really the same after. FrankWilliams 19:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Where did you hear/read about this event Mr. Williams?ShuckyDucky 23:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It's been a long time. It was either told to me by my instructor or it's in one of my books/periodicals. When I get some time I'll see if I can find the source. Sorry about not being more definite but I do recall the source as being reliable.FrankWilliams 01:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Finally
This quesion has been lagging at me from some time. I've finally combed through my library and found the citation for my comment. The information came from the Bruce Lee Jeet-June-Do club published magazine entitled "Bruce Lee His Privacy and Anecdotes" page 11. This was an article written by the Editors of the magazine as told to them by a Mr. Chan Ah-Kam a Chinese individual living in Thailand during the early 1970's. Apparently when Bruce Lee was filming "The Big Boss" in Thailand and still developing JKD he ran across Mr. Ah-Kam and convinced him to set up a sparring match between himself and a retired Thai-Boxing champion. Lee was still developing and refining his JKD and wanted to see how it stacked up against his system. Lee along with the rest of the world had heard of the martial arts prowess of Thai Boxers, so he wanted to see how he would fair. Apparently after 14 rounds of severe punishing blows Lee ended up victorious.

Quote From the Article:

"As Bruce walked up to help him on his feet, the champion unexpectedly gave a kick. Bruce rapidly turned away.  Hoever, Bruce could not entirely avoid it, the kick still hit on his waist.

From then on Bruce's waist frequently had uncomfortable feeling.

Seeing that the result was out and the chapion had flared up, Ah-Kam divided them. Ah-Kam also had a deep cultivation in martial arts, the two moved a few yards away when pushed by Ah-Kam. The two saw their own mistakes. There, Ah-Kam suggested to go to a Chinese restaurant to wash away their hatred. They stored this experience deep down in their hearts. No one was gonna tell anything. Hoever, from then on, Bruce's waist frequently felt uncomfortable.

The article has the flow of truth for me based on some known knowledge:


 * A. It was well known that when Bruce was filming in Thailand that he was "out in the sticks" and had lost some weight due to poor nutrition.  Being in such a remote area; it is plausable that such an event had transpired without much documentation.  This would account for the story not being very well known.
 * B. Thailand is known their Muy Thai art which is especially brutal.
 * C. We know Bruce was skillful, knowledgable, and would rarely back down if he thought someone would pose a challenge to his martial skill.
 * D. Bruce was still developing JKD and while in Thailand and it is probable that he could not resist stacking up his JKD to their national art.

Obviously there is no way to definitely ascertainly the truthfulness of this story but it is documented in the cited text above and as far as: belief; this is left up to the reader of course. FrankWilliams 03:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The exercise was called "good mornings". You hold a weight on your neck while repeatedly bending over at the waist. As you would assume, this puts a great deal of stress on your back and caused a injury that hospitalized him for several months. Lee's book "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" is a collection of notes he wrote during his lifetime and was compiled posthumorously by his wife and students.

Aetius

Text removal/merging
This is text that I removed from Martial art. I think it could be merged with the existing text to make one Bruce Lee article. Habj 22:05, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Influence of Bruce Lee
''Bruce Lee, a U.S. born, Hong Kong raised martial artist and actor, is claimed by his followers to be the most influential theorist-practitioner in martial arts history. He had a very successful action movie career, and from that position in the public eye spent the later part of his life decrying what he claimed was a degradation of combat effectiveness in the traditional arts that he blamed on the Confucian teacher-student relationships of the established Chinese schools.

Although he trained the Chinese south Shaolin art of Wing Chun when young, he eventually left the school headed by the well known Hong Kong based Sifu Yip Man, and any formal association with the Wing Chun system. Arriving in the Seattle area in the 1960s, he soon encountered styles of other martial arts, such as Kali, Escrima, Karate and Judo. As an undergraduate philosophy student at the University of Washington, and after graduation, he began to teach his version of kung fu to non-Chinese. Around the same time he began to state publicly that, while many traditional Chinese martial arts maintained and taught large catalogues of techniques, what he regarded as their uncritical maintenance of traditions in his view adversely affected their approach to unarmed combat. Couching his language in Taoist metaphor, he stated that he sought to create an elastic framework -- "no style as style" -- claiming to be focused solely on the improvement of efficiency in unarmed combat. Lee proposed that this framework could absorb influences from any martial art -- and he actively investigated Filipino armed and unarmed techniques, European and Japanese grappling, fencing, Korean kicking techniques and Chinese close range hand techniques during his lifetime.

Bruce Lee's comments and methods were seen as quite controversial. Many traditional teachers disagree with his opinions on these issues, especially seeing what Lee described as their lack of strategic flexibility due to "rote" teaching methods to be a misunderstanding on Lee's part. Most, if not all, traditional martial arts teachers say "fluid" strategy is a feature of martial training that is indeed addressed in the curricula of most traditional styles at advanced levels, when the students are ready. The schools Lee criticized tend to see their initial conservatism as a safety feature; a legacy of practical experience passed down from generation to generation, said to insure that their students are thoroughly prepared for advanced martial training, skipping nothing and developing intangibles such as good character, patience and discipline. The hierarchy of the traditional schools is said by this reasoning to provide a level playing field for all students by instilling respect and care for one's seniors, peers and juniors, so that everyone, not just the physically gifted, has an opportunity to benefit from the training provided in a martial art school.

With his untimely death in 1973, Lee was unable to develop his philosophy further. What he taught has been elaborated by his students and is considered by them to be a new style, which Lee himself named jeet kune do (Cantonese 截拳道, lit. "way of the intercepting fist"). To resolve the apparent contradiction, teachers of jeet kune do often maintain that what they practice is not a style or a tradition, but concepts. One thing most people on both sides of the issues he raised agree on is that Bruce Lee, through his movie career, had a great impact on the international popularization of the Chinese martial arts.''

small correction
The actress he had visited when he died was Betty Ting Pei a Taiwanese actress. betty tin pang is she alive still and did he love her

Place of death: What is right?
The german version of wikipedia states that Lee died in Hongkong. English version says it was in USA. What is right? And how can we prove it?


 * He died in Hong Kong and his body was sent home to the US. I was in Hong Kong when he died.  It was big news then.  If you want proof, you go to the library and look up some old newspaper from Hong Kong.  Kowloonese

Origin of his screen name
For Chinese wikipedians, here is an interesting story about the origin of Bruce's screen name. . There is also a Chinese Biography on line at. Enjoy! Kowloonese

Yip Man Lee
The article has a link to Grandmaster Yip Man Lee that redirect to Yip Man. Where is the "Lee" come from in the link?? Kowloonese 19:42, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bruce Lee's death
I have added information that Bruce Lee had previously passed out, and that this was likely related to the consumption of cannabis leaves. He may have had an allergic reaction to the leaves, possibly in combination with the medicine which he took on the day he died. --Pog 16:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You may not believe this, but as a child, I was told in a summer camp that Bruce Lee was killed violently. Four men held him down and one stabbed him through the heart. Of course, this article tells that's false, Lee died of poisoning or drug overdose. I think whoever told me that story either confused Lee with one of his characters or wanted me to do so. &mdash; J I P | Talk 20:42, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Absurd fantasy. Shawnc 04:55, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Someone added this to the "Death by misadventure" section: "Chow said in a later interview that it was a Croatian mixed martial artists Nikola Mijic who had fought Bruce Lee a couple days before his death and Bruce Lee had been complaining about pain in his head ever since the fight" -- Unless someone comes up quickly with a reference (preferably other than a fansite or forum), I suggest removing that sentence since it seems to me a lame attempt to advertise one's name on the account of a famous dead person. I am neither Bruce's biographer or martial arts specialist, but a quick google search shows no affiliation of any Nikola Mijic with martial arts, much less with Bruce Lee. Needless to say, if the statement were true (or at least old enough), it would have been an issue of hot debate over years... Until then, I took the liberty to shade the sentence. -- unregistered

Computer games
From the article (regarding Bruce Lee as being the only actor ever to have a computer game named after him):


 * This isn't true. Shaquille O'Neil had a video game made based on himself called Shaq-Fu. Also, various rapper/actors (like Method Man or Redman) have been featured in video games as well.

I have since changed "only" to "one of the very few". Perhaps Shaquille O'Neal (I believe that's the correct spelling) should be mentioned in a footnote or something. However, I don't count appearances by Method Man or Redman, unless the game itself is named after them. For example, Bill Gates has appeared on Frasier as himself, and Stephen Hawking has appeared on Star Trek: The Next Generation as himself, but those shows are not named Bill Gates and Stephen Hawking. &mdash; J I P | Talk 10:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Off the top of my head, Michael Jackson, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, the Olsen Twins and Britney Spears have games with their names. In addition to Shaq, there are many other sporting celebrities with their names in the titles, such as Tiger Woods, John Madden, Michael Jordan, Tony Hawk, etc. Just for the record :).


 * I agree that at least Michael Jackson (Michael Jackson's Moonwalker) and Shaquille O'Neal (Shaq Fu) are actors with games named after them. I'll take your word for Jackie Chan, Jet Li, the Olsens and Britney Spears. As for the sporting celebrities, firstly, they aren't actors, so they're not relevant to my original claim (Bruce Lee is the only actor ever...). Secondly, there have been numerous games named something like Tiger Woods's International Masters Golf Championship Challenge 1994, Extra-Special Edition, but do they actually use any specific characteristic about Tiger Woods (for example) himself, or is the name only there for sponsorship purposes?   &mdash; J I P | Talk 09:49, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Yep, utterly without basis, Lara Croft has a few games names after her. Only joking, what about Tiger Woods and Tom Clancy.

Tony Hawk

Kung Fu (TV series)
Our Kung Fu article states that Bruce Lee created the concept for the series, which he wanted to call "The Warrior". Can we confirm this, and then add it to this article? Thanks, func (talk) 13:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It is true. Watch the movie that was the biography of Bruce Lee, watch the biography channel, go to the Kung Fu TV series websites or read a book on his life.  If you placed the factual inaccuracy title for the Kung Fu TV question, you might want to remove it. Steelhead 03:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Bruce Lee (Bruce Li) was born in Foshan // Familiy Name Lee (pinyin: Li ?)
please have aa look at these pages, they say, that he is native Foshan. So born in Foshan before going to HK to finish school. Also he was studying Kung Fu in Foshan under his Master Yip Man And another question is about his family name. In US he is called Lee but isn't it derived from the pinyin Li? please have a look at these Pages: [Chinesische page] [Foshan Government Describtion] -- Histery 11:04, 17.08.2005 (GMT+8)
 * No, that page is mistaken. Lee was born at Jackson Street Hospital in the Chinatown area of San Francisco, California, United States of America. Lee is Cantonese and his last name should be spelled "Lee", the Cantonese variant.
 * yes, bruce was born in san franscisco. the article is mistaken and might have confused his birthplace with foshan because his family ancestry is from jun'an, shunde, in foshan (something like his grandfather or something was from there)
 * I may be able to shed some light on the possible source of such error. I don't know if it is still a common practice nowadays. But when our generation (read Bruce's) grew up in Hong Kong, instead of our birthplace, we have to report our jiguan in school and government documents.  Jiguan (籍貫) literally means record's links, or practically means where our father came from.  I beleive since ancient China, families needed to register where they lived with the government, such records of families are called huji (戶籍).  One can trace the origin of one's ancestors through this kind of links.  For example, Bruce's birth place is San Francisco, but he would report his jiguan as Fushan. One can then go to Fushan and dig up the record of Bruce's father.  On his father's record, one would find where Bruce grandfather came from and so forth.  This kind of links were important before the computer age.  Nowadays, a centralized database may be able to produce a family genealogy with a click of a button.  But back then, you had to know where to look for the next record up the chain.  It is possible that somewhere down the line, jiguan was translated erroneously as birthplace by someone who don't understand Chinese traditions, and hence the confusion.  Perhaps someone can start an article on the concept of jiguan. Kowloonese 19:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Latest edit with Chuck Norris information
Go see Chuck_Norris. You know, Bruce Lee's biography, and then, all of the sudden, Chuck Norris, without any introduction. I agree that Chuck Norris was important fo Bruce Lee, as Bruce Lee for Chuck, but I feel like someone just added this without any consideration. I'm for reverting it. And, then when and if the article is reverted, this section can be deleted.
 * Well, we should mention Norris, but only a sentence or two woth a wikilink, I'd say. I'd do it now, but I'm leaving for a bit... Fire Star 20:38, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * There should be a section on Chuck norris since he was important part of Lee's life.


 * I removed some nonsense Chuck Norris 'Dread Lord' quote crap from the article...I left what seemed like a legitimate quote in the article, but maybe the original editor who added it could add a citation, or somebody else familiar with the sources..?

Nutrition?
Do the article need another section on Bruce Lee's nutrition ?
 * I think it can go under the current training and fitness section unless it becomes too large. Shawnc 02:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

ATTN: Fire Star CITE YOUR SOURCE before Reverting
Fire Star, cite your sources before reverting or editing the article. Your version is very POV. Wheres your evidence? Wheres your proof? Where is your source? My proof is below, which you deleted in your version of the article. Sources:
 * Chronology of Bruce Lee's life
 * The Bruce Lee Foundation
 * Information on Bruce Lee's Training Methods
 * FAQ about Bruce Lee's martial arts
 * TIME 100 article on Bruce Lee
 * Bruce Lee's Gung Fu Essays
 * Bruce Lee's Gung Fu Essays

Read ALL of this BEFORE EDITING THE ARTICLE.


 * Several suggestions: it helps to post under a fixed user name and sign discussion posts using ~ . Write explanations for edits to avoid being dismissed. When adding tags such as and , it helps to discuss them here as well. Attach links and footnotes after specific statements in the article to receive stronger support. Phrases such as "To re-emphasize", "very close" are a little strong for an article. Shawnc 02:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Any reasons for reverting
Can someone give reasons/evidence before reverting the article?


 * First off, it is helpful to sign your messages here so that it is easier to see who we are talking to. Second, I'm not adding any info (beyond the Yuen Wah sentence, and my source is Jackie Chan's autobiography) so I don't have a need for sources to cite. What I am doing is keeping the editorial tone neutral. Some people are BIG Bruce fans, others are not. To avoid the page becoming a Bruce Shrine, or an attack page, we should have dry entries that stick to the non-controversial documented facts. Paragraphs implying Bruce had a bigger figurative dick than Chuck Norris aren't encyclopaedic, in that sense. I wouldn't mention Jackie Chan's story of Sammo Hung kicking a prima donna Bruce around on a movie set for the same reasons. Also, there are those who say that Bruce didn't leave Yip Man's school, but that he was kicked out. We avoid the controversy by simply saying that he didn't finish the curriculum, a statement that both sides agree on. Nobody owns this article, and as we say in our disclaimer; If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it. I hope this helps. Fire Star 16:51, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Everyone should sign each message, because anonymous posts are typically perceived as being less credible in online (or any other) communities. Personally I try to add footnotes to potentially controversial statements, and I encourage others to do the same. Shawnc 01:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

"we should have dry entries that stick to the non-controversial documented facts. Paragraphs implying Bruce had a bigger figurative dick than Chuck Norris aren't encyclopaedic, in that sense"... Yet one of the links refers to an article which, altough initially published in "Official Karate" more than two decades ago is neither highly documented, unbiased or encyclopaedic. The author strives in the beggining to stay neutral, but ends up bashing Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do. My suggestion is, either:
 * remove the link
 * place a warn sign close to it so that people less familiar with Bruce Lee will not be deluded.
 * try to find a second oppinion article about that event.

If you want additional arguments, I'll be happy to provide them :) - Mike, Germany.

"He is widely regarded as one of the most influential martial arts actors[..]" --- Perhaps it should be pointed out that Lee did much to establish himself as a martial artist first and actor second. I don't refer to his two-finger push-ups or one-inch punches, but rather to "Tao of Jeet Kune Do", "The Art of Expressing the Human Body" and "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method 1,2,3" when I say this. I think it's a matter of respect and fairness to change the starting sentence to something like "He is widely regarded as one of the most influential martial artists and actors[..]"

"Lee expanded his style over time, STATING THAT he included elements from[]" --- if you cannot trust your sources EVEN ON SUCH A STATEMENT, why bother quoting them? Look, I understand the difference between keeping a neutral tone and being highly doubtful, but do you?! - same dude.

Here I have to agree. Look at other actors bio and tell me who else made such a huge contribution to martial arts. Who else developed new styles, new fighting approaches. Who else wrote even a single book reflecting his philosophy, Chuck Norris, Jackie Chan, Van Damme? Even the highly esteemed Ed Parker, although considered the father of American Kenpo, little did he to improve the original Kenpo taught to him by Frank Chow {Derek Foreal}

German grandparents?
(   Do command Find (F) for macs, "german". This is one of many sources, if you google "german" and "bruce lee" in quotations you will find many others.  I have studied Bruce Lee, and this info is in all of his Bio's.  I could find no other way to send this to you, so i am just putting it in the text)


 * I found one unsourced reference to his perhaps having German grandparents on a google search. Anyone else know anything about this? --Fire Star 20:10, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

(  )  This is another more detailed link on Bruce lee's background and ancestry, even giving his parents names. A Book Bio which mentions his German ancestry is John Little's "Bruce Lee: A Warriors Journey". This book is both a bio, and an in depth look at the Game of Death Movie as it related to Bruce lee's life, as well as Jeet kune do. John Little has written many books on Bruce Lee, and is the only author to be given total access to all of Bruce lee's notes, and personal library by Linda Lee Cadwell (Bruce Lee's widow). He is the foremost expert on Bruce Lee. Agian, Bruce Lee's German heritage is well documented and known. That is why I thought Wikipedia should mention it when saying he was Chinese. Lee's mother's father was German. If you need another more ancestry specific bio let me know. However, John Little is the foremost expert.


 * "Lee was born November 27, 1940, the son of Lee Hoi Chuen, a well known comic actor and a member of the ensemble cast of the 99-episode Wong Fei Hong series that launched modern Hong Kong filmmaking. His mother, Grace, was a Shanghainese transplant who had been raised a Catholic, and was the daughter of a German father and a Chinese mother." from Jeff Yang, et al. "Eastern Standard Time: A Guide to Asian Influence on American Culture". Boston/New York: Meridian/Houghton Mifflin, 1997. p. 95. Shawnc 13:36, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know his mother's maiden name, I can't find it!

Lyrics inclusion
Does everyone like the amount of lyrics being included from the song "1127"? It seems a little much to me. Shawnc 04:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it's fine as is. It doesn't add too much to the article regarding its overall size, and it would probably be hard to come by a translation of the lyrics without them quoted here. I also think the lyrics express rather strong, and appropriate feelings. Just my opinion. DevSolar 12:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Bosnia
This is a controversial page that reads well, so I dont want to mess with it. Someone should add that Bosnia has erected a statue of Bruce Lee as a symbol of Racial Diversity. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4474316.stm Hong Kong is also erecting one, but its quite notable that Bosnia has one. Thanks


 * Odd. What does Bruce Lee have to do with Bosnia? Hamilton burr 21:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm from Serbia, which is (probably you know) just east across river Drina of Bosnia. From what I've heard people of Mostar consider Bruce Lee to be a simbol of righteousness, justice, a simbol how one man can face many an win it, and a kind of simbol how Bruce Lee stood above his own nationality and race to become a global hero. It's interesting to note that Bruce Lee has almost a cult folowing among Gypsies in region. There's a quite popular folk song among them about Bruce Lee, which you can hear now and then.--RockyMM 20:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Wong Jack Man
At the start of the "beyon jeet kune do" section there is a very poorly written/informed piece describing what was no doubt one of the greatest martial arts battles of all time, between Lee and Wong Jack Man. The piece in question refers to the fight as being set up by elders angry at Lee for teaching whites, although his opponent was also famed for teaching whites. It also claims that the fight was 3 "rounds," when in fact no source supports it. As it was, the fight was relatively secret and very few were in attendance (mostly the lee family). According to most sources, it was agreed that the fight would not be dicussed afterward, and that it was to be a friendly demonstartion between two young masters. The Lees claimed (in a press conference immediately afterward) that Bruce Lee had just defeated a great master. The local Chinese press at the time reported an entirely different outcome, based on eyewitness accounts. Although it has since been shrouded in legend, I believe that the event could use some more fleshing out (at least with Wong Jack Man's name!) and perhaps a more factual basis. One undisputed fact is that it is what led Bruce Lee to change his style so dramatically. The one source I have found so far is here.... http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html. >>>>EDIT http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html. is run by the supporters of Wong Jack Man, and is biased<<<<<<<I have also read about it in Sports illustrated, but it was a back issue and I'm not sure from when. I also have seen the article in the Chinese language paper, but I don't read (or speak) Chinese, but I will look to see if I can find it. My friends father owns a copy...  I didn't edit the page because it does say it is controversial, and this is by no means my area of expertise. Reggaedelgado 08:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes he used many styles but the major styles of which JKD consists of (80%) are
 * Wing Chun
 * Silat
 * Kali
 * Boxing
 * Fencing
 * Jujitsu
 * Muay Thai

15% comes from 26 official styles and 4 unofficial (other than the above)which he learnt thoroughly

5% comes from countless other styles


 * OK Alright, here is the crux of the JKD argument. What does it consist of???  You know even responding to the above comment is quite difficult.  He quite posibbly could have learned x(thousand) techniques, all from different styles.  The one thing I don't really understand is why people always come up with the number 26??  Yes, unfortunatley I have read Vunak's (highly dubious)book, but other than that where...??? --ShuckyDucky 23:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

JKD is mostly composed of But in total JKD is mostly around 26 different martial arts styles.
 * Wing Chun
 * Silat
 * Kali
 * Boxing
 * Fencing
 * Jujitsu
 * Muay Thai

I'm still waiting for an answer to where this number of 26 came from? What are they? The original composition that went into Jun Fan, what Lee was teaching when he died, or what you are learning right now? I'm curious of the answer.

I've found it quite humerous to try and figure out what styles influenced Lee for his personal JKD as opposed the JKD Process. How is it even possible to extrapolate the styles that Lee personally incoporated into his personal JKD? He had access to so many martial artist and so many texts where would one even begin. In the final analysis what does it give you? Are folks trying to duplicate what Lee did? JKD was designed to be tailor made for each and every individual. Ultimately it is up to every individual to ascertain what works for them personally; and that means experimentation. Not sure what the benefit is of figuring out what styles influenced Lee.FrankWilliams 02:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would agree 100% ShuckyDucky 16:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The 26 arts hypothesis was copied by author Paul Vunak out of Dan Inosanto's notes. It may have been out of context. In my experience of the lee arts, wrestling, boxing, fencing, savate, mantis (southern), taiji, baguazhang, tae kwon do, muay thai, gojuryu, uechiryu, kali, judo, hapkido, crane, choylifut, white tiger, white eyebrow, and Parker's kenpo all contributed techniques to tao of gung fu, while wing chun remained the nucleus. That is 20 arts, tho' the list differs from Mr. Vunak's. Lee's later approach minimized techniques and focused more on attribute development. The contrarian view of the Wong Jak Man fight is gaining in popularity. My impression from have spoken or corresponded with original students of Bruce Lee is that they simply had no reason to doubt Linda Lee's version of events. I am just wondering: of the wikipedia editors in charge of this article, how many are martial artists or martial arts historians, how many have trained in either the Lee arts or wing chun, and how many actual know direct students of Bruce Lee? I question the whole affair on the basis on anti-elitism, hatred of expertise, the privileging of trolls over experts, and the view that a contrarian view of events is possibly vaild just because someone says it. To me, contrarian views are not to be advanced merely because they are held. Most Americans believe that the founding fathers were Christians and that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, but that does not make it so. I am also disturbed that contrarians dismiss the views of martial arts legends like Mr. Inosanto merely because Guro Inosnato was a Lee student. As if one couldn't admit that a friend lost a fight. NPOV is a nonissue. BTW the original article writer of the 1980 OFFICIAL KARATE writer was challenged to meet with Lee students to prove his case, and he refused any such meeting. Bob Guedel IV - Here is the other side of the coin on the fight from Wong Jack Man's camp: http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html

Who knows where the truth lies...probably somewhere in between.

Also, I think it's revisionist and reductionist to say that "elders" were angry at Bruce for teaching non-Asians. Moreso, they were just chapped that he was constantly deriding "classical kung-fu" and so wanted him to walk his talk. That said, one must also realize that Chinese were legally BANNED from immigrating into the US for about 60 years - all the way up until WWII. So, when Bruce Lee arrived on the scene in the 60s, virulent anti-Chinese racism was still a very fresh memory in the lives of many of these Chinatown "elders."

I tend to agree with the guy above. The being angry part is Linda's view and I don't know if it reflects reality. I will incorporate different viewpoints into the article.

--

I put in the Wong Jack Man POV referencing the Kungfu article but someone after me wholesale copied the Kungfu article. That portion needs to be rewritten and I am too lazy to do it. Otherwise, put everything in quote. BTW, there are other articles on the fight. I made it clear that it was sources from single article and this distinction needs to be maintained.

- Facts only, please. Wikipedia is not a rumor mill. These are the hard facts: Bruce Lee fought Wong Jack Man privately, a match only a few people saw. Lee claimed one version of the fight, Wong described another, but neither fighter incurred serious injuries by all accounts. Wong later challenged Lee for a public fight, which Lee ignored. That's it. Shawnc 15:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

- Shawnc, Did You say with Full Confidence that Bruce Lee ignored Wong Jack Man's Challenge? You must knows NOTHING about the Martial arts if you think Wong won the Fight but the Facts of the Account are Investigated. oh, it also tells how Bruce Lee was Fighting Racism. I know Whites, AND BLACKS - In America AND China , that were being taught KUNG FU by Bruce Lee. Prove These Points first before Writing ANYTHING. Cite your sources.


 * Wong wrote an article in the Chinese Pacific Weekly newspaper describing the fight. The article was run on the front page, which means many people in San Francisco read it in 1964 (I'm asking User:Reggaedelgado to get a copy of it). There is no documentation or even rumor that suggests they ever fought again, so by definition, Lee ignored the challenge.  The fact that Lee taught whites (he was 1/4 German) has little to do with how well or poorly Lee fought against Wong.  Note that "Far from attempting to keep Kung Fu secret and exclusive, Wong observes that his was the first school in San Francisco’s Chinatown to operate with open doors. That the other Kung Fu schools then in existence conducted classes behind locked doors was due more to the instructor’s fears of being challenged, say Wong, than to a refusal to teach Caucasians."


 * So, if anyone wants a source, go down to Fort Mason Center (directions), San Francisco, and pay a visit to Mr. Wong. The guy who fought Bruce Lee, and whose public challenge to Lee was ignored, was teaching a class just last Wednesdays, 5:30-7:30pm, for $40/month. Shawnc 02:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you have any proof that Wong challenged Lee and Lee ignored the challenge?
 * Yes, again it's the Chinese Pacific Weekly front page article by Wong in 1964. No one has ever claimed that Lee accepted the challenge. References are Michael Dorgan who wrote the Official Karate article, Wong Jack Man (who can be reached), and those who have seen the newspaper article such as User:Reggaedelgado. Shawnc 04:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Bruce Lee DIDNT lose the FIGHT with Wong Jack Man. If you sit down with Ted Wong and Dan Inosanto they’ll tell you Wong Jack Man got BEAT and Bruce Lee sure as HELL DIDN'T lose. Wong CHALLENGED Bruce and told him he must now Stop Teaching Kung Fu to the Whites, AND BLACKS - In America AND China. Jesse Glover even saw Bruce Lee the day after the Wong Jack Man fight and was willing to confirm Lee's story. NO ONE actually believes the conspiracy theory about Wong Jack Man Winning The FIGHT. NO ONE, except Anti-JKD webbers and Students of Wong Jack Man!!!
 * Who said something about Lee "losing" or Wong "winning"? The article indeed states that Wong was on the defensive, which everyone seems to agree ("He really wanted to kill me", said Wong). Wong merely wrote a newspaper article describing his own POV.
 * Please keep in mind that this organization is based on the policy of Neutral point of view. All the article needs to state for the sake of neutrality is that there was a disagreement between two people/groups about the specifics of a event which was private and unrecorded. This is also not the place to actively advocate any particular individuals, including either Lee or Wong. If someone writes something like "Wong easily and clearly defeated Bruce Lee," I'd be happy to remove it quickly. Shawnc 05:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I haven't been by for a while, but I think that this section is MUCH better and does a great job retaining NPOV despite the he said/he said nature of the "facts" about the fight! Nice work guys. Still hoping Josh's dad will lend me that articleReggaedelgado 00:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

--

I have edited the account to record what I remember of what Bruce said about the fight before four or five of us informally. By the way, I was one of the whites he taught, and not teaching whites was a big deal then, and there was no question in my mind THEN that that was one reason why the fight occurred. Why would there be such talk among his Chinese students? Most of the students in Jimmy (James) Lee's garage were Chinese. I heard it repeatedly. We weren't the media. I also don't doubt that he won the fight, since I believe that at least two of the other people had actually witnessed the fight (one of them was Jimmy Lee, I think, his assistant instructor). They were laughing about it as people would if their favorite had won. It was Bruce who spoke up about it with a slight grin but more serious and embarrassed. 128.32.2.75 20:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)  James French. Opps, looks like someone deleted my comments from the article. Sigh.

Graduation
Bruce did not graduate from the University of Washington. This is no big deal, he's smarter and knew more than most philosphy Ph.D anyway. But let's keep the fact straight. His friend James Lee died only a year or two after getting with Bruce. I have no doubt the decision to head down to San Francisco was the right one for Bruce.

He should be given an honorary Ph.D and I think this will happen in the future.


 * Any proof that says Bruce didn't graduate?

Most biographies mention this. I have never seen a bio that claimed that he graduated. Not even one. The registra office has no record of his graduation since he didn't and never claimed that he did. The alumni magazine has an article this and he he attended, never graduated.

Look at the official UW alumni magazine - there is a * by Bruce Lee "*Attended but did not graduate"

http://www.washington.edu/alumni/columns/dec99/j_o.html

Like I said, it's no big deal. He had a decision to make at that time and from his life and career - he has shown that he more than qualified for the degree. Let's not forget that many great people drop out just before they were to graduate.

List of fictional characters based on Bruce Lee
The list is getting large and is being moved to its own page at List of fictional characters based on Bruce Lee. Shawnc 02:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The list is notable should stay on the Bruce Lee page.
 * Wikipedia subsections, especially lists, get their own pages when they get long enough, that's why we have List of Chinese martial arts apart from Chinese martial arts. The list is notable and is getting very long and obstructing other information, that's why it should have its own page, just like all the articles in Category:Lists of fictional characters. Shawnc 04:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Though I personally find the list too long for this article, this is just a stylistic suggestion, but at this rate it probably should be split eventually, for the sake of server load if nothing else. What would others like to see right now, split or merged? Shawnc 04:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * MERGED, The list is Notable should stay on the Bruce Lee page.
 * I think it is growing too long and again there have been many instances where lists are split. If readers are interested in the list, he can easily click on it. In spliting the list, those who are not interested in reading about the 10th or 20th videogame character that looks like Bruce Lee can read the rest of the main article more easily. In addition, an advantages of having a list page is that it can be categorized with many similar pages, which can in turn extend the breadth of this article.
 * These are just our opinions. Let's hear what other editors would like to see. Shawnc 06:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

conspiracy theories
See No original research and What Wikipedia is not. Unencyclopedic speculation regarding Lee's death will be removed. Shawnc 02:46, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The Doctors announced Bruce Lee's death officially as "Death by Misadventure". and it should be included.
 * The phrase is ok, but not the conspiracy theories, which no doctor has endorsed. Shawnc 04:26, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Please refer to these official policies regarding the matter: Verifiability, What Wikipedia is not. Unverified statements such as "Lee faked his death" or "Lee was killed in a streetfight by common thugs" can be considered propaganda. Shawnc 04:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

"Beyond Jeet Kune Do"
This subsection is arguably improper as Lee practiced what he labeled "JKD" throughout much of his later life and only allegedly abandoned the name until shortly before his death. Shawnc 07:57, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Bruce Lee did think "beyond Jeet Kune Do" after he fought Wong Jack Man.
 * Which reference shows that he started to abandon JKD right after fighting Wong? I was under the impression that he started JKD after that. Shawnc 04:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Bruce Lee said "Jeet Kune Do, It's just a name, don't fuss over it. There's no such thing as a style if you understand the roots of combat." I would suggest buying yourself a Bruce Lee biography and then The Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Bruce Lee said himself that "The usefulness of a cup is its emptiness".
 * No, the quesiton is when he said that? He fought Wong in 1964. When did he start using the term "JKD" and when did he start to abandon it? Shawnc 06:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Referenced quotes
We need to source the quotes by Lee's associates and friends. Shawnc 13:52, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

A Google search suggests that some of the recent contents such as these quotes and the "feats" section were copied from bruceleedivinewind.com, a fan site. Some of the listed feats refer to the quotes on that page, but the quotes themselves are unsourced, with no date, no location, interview information, author, etc. These are therefore questionable material. Shawnc 05:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Loss of info
Kowloonese 23:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC) On 23:18, December 15, 2005 user 172.132.179.157 converted all the native text in the article into question mark characters. Such act could be vandalism or just newbie's inability to edit an article properly. One likely scenario this could happen was when he copied and pasted a displayed page into the edit window instead of directly editing the original content inside the edit window. The edit window preserves the binary code of the foreign characters, but the displayed page may not preserve it depending on whether the language pack for the text is available on the user's machine. The result is all unmatched characters turning into ? characters. For this reason, I prefer putting non-English text in the &ddddd; syntax. Though it is harder to edit, the content is unaffected by other users' lack of language pack and improper encoding settings.

Then a user removed all these ? characters because they were no longer readable. It was an easy way out. It is easier to trim off the damage instead of repairing them. Including native text in an English article is a controversial topic. Some people want them because they help future researchers to further the study through native sources. Some people don't want them because they cannot benefit from the info until they learn the language.

In any case, information was lost from this article since Dec 15, 2005.


 * I have re-added the deleted content, I think it's useful. Mushroom 00:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The native texg in the article should be deleted because this is an English article in an English Wikipedia. Most people cannot benefit from the native text because most people don't understand the native language since this is an English Wikipedia.


 * I don't think so. See the articles about Taiwan or Beijing: they list the English name and the Chinese name. I think it's the same with this article: if we write Chinese names, we should write them in both languages. If people don't understand Chinese they can just read them in English. Mushroom 01:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Kowloonese 02:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC) :Native text can be encyclopedic information and has many benefits. It is unwise to remove native text JUST because this is an English encyclopedia. Try harder to counter the reasons listed below.  I'd bet when people wrote encyclopedia in the last century, they didn't omit native text because it was foreign language, they didn't include them because they didn't know the language or printing technology didn't allow that.  In wikipedia, we have the technical means (Unicode) and the language skills(from contributors), it would be foolish to not add native text to articles.
 * Kowloonese 02:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC) :Native text can be encyclopedic information and has many benefits. It is unwise to remove native text JUST because this is an English encyclopedia. Try harder to counter the reasons listed below.  I'd bet when people wrote encyclopedia in the last century, they didn't omit native text because it was foreign language, they didn't include them because they didn't know the language or printing technology didn't allow that.  In wikipedia, we have the technical means (Unicode) and the language skills(from contributors), it would be foolish to not add native text to articles.


 * DISAMBIGUATION is #1 benefit. Even if you cannot read the language, by comparing the glyphs, you can at least tell if any two terms are related or not. e.g. There are a few articles here about the name Zhang Bao, but they are all different persons with names written differently in the native text. Native text confirms they are different.  If you go to the library and pick up any book about China written in the 1800s, you will have a hard time mapping between the transliteration then and that we used in modern books.  An obvious example is Peking turning into Beijing.  This name is so well known that their mapping causes no problem to anyone.  But how about other less known terms like "Lee Chun Fan"?  The Chinese language uses many homonyms, any one spelling can easily maps to 70 to 80 different Chinese characters.  Multiply that by multiple systems of transliterations.  You basically have no way to disambiguate many terminologies without cross referencing to the native writing.


 * Enabling further research is another benefit. If you travel to Japan and show the native text in a printed wikipedia article to a taxi driver, you may be able to go to many more places without an intepreter.  For ambiguous terms, even an interpretor may give you a bad translation without knowing the exact native text.  Imagine you hire an interpretor to help you research the history of someone called Zhang Bao in China.  The first thing he would asked you is how to write the name in native text.  The pinyin Zhang Bao can also be spelled Cheung Bo in Cantonese.  How would he know you are not looking for Cheung Bo instead???


 * Graphic search on the Internet is yet another benefit even you can benefit from without knowing the language. Open up Google image search and cut and paste some native text from an wikipedian article into Google and you open up a whole new world of visual information that you may not have by using English alone.


 * Over-using native text can affect readability of an article, so I have opinion on how native text should be used. See my user page for that. Kowloonese 02:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikifying
Please refer to Only make links that are relevant to the context for a guide on wikifying words in the article. Too many words have been wikified despite being linked earlier. "What should not be linked: Words that have been linked earlier in the article. This advice follows the standard practice of defining or explaining a term, or spelling out an acronym, on its first occurrence in a text and not subsequently." This goes to words such as "martial arts", "martial artists" and so on. Shawnc 05:15, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources about Bruce Lee humiliating Chuck Norris
Prove These READ these SOURCES before Writing ANYTHING. Cite your sources.

Sources about Bruce Lee humiliating Chuck Norris The following story is Completely True: At a demonstration in Long Beach, Chuck Norris met the soon to be famous Bruce Lee, who would ingrain Norris in martial arts history forever with his portrayal as Bruce Lee's nemesis in the Way of the Dragon.

Sources for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Beach_International_Karate_Championships

 But while the two were publicly friendly, contrary to what many (including Norris himself) state, they were not close friends. Lee had repeatedly humiliated Norris during a mock sparring session in the hotel hallway at the Long Beach International Karate Championships in 1964. And Norris had offended Lee when he publicly claimed to be a better fighter than Lee. When word got back to Lee, he called Norris and openly challenged him, threatening to drive to his school to fight (Norris was teaching his black belt class at that time). According to eye witnesses, Lee made Norris hold the phone receiver up and shout in front of his black belts, "Bruce Lee is a better fighter than me!" Later, Norris wrote an Apologetic Letter to Lee; the original letter is currently in the care of Lee's student, Dan Inosanto. Dan Inosanto currently still owns the Letter of Apology that Chuck Norris wrote to Bruce Lee, which is in a Long Beach Dojo. Yet despite these conflicts, the two managed to set aside any differences in pursuit of their mutual film aspirations and develop a friendly public persona toward one another. 

If you PROOF that the story is true, then read ALL These SITES: Sources: &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.247.76.117 (talk • contribs).
 * http://www.netkushi.com/articles/chuck-norris.php
 * http://www.classictvhits.com/cast.php?id=4420
 * http://www.answers.com/topic/chuck-norris
 * http://www.earwaks.com/forum/fpost42979.html
 * http://www.gotohoroscope.com/celebrities/metal-dragon-C.html
 * http://www.buzzscope.com/pcs/forums/archive/index.php/t-9659.html
 * http://forum DOT bodybuilding DOT com/photo/showphoto.php?photo=7750&cpage=4&limit=views
 * http://www.buzzscope.com/pcs/forums/showthread.php?t=9659
 * http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/archive/index.php/t-32795.html
 * Please see Talk:Chuck Norris for a response on the matter. Shawnc 13:52, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Enter the Dragon grossing
This statement was posted: "Bruce's last movie Enter the Dragon was made for a modest $600,000 in 1973. To date, Enter the Dragon has grossed over $300,000,000." and a "IMDB" reference was given. But IMDB.com does not give this number. Instead, the statement, as in others, was copied from bruceleedivinewind.com, a fansite, which apparently got the number from a Joe Lewis dialogue: "Joe Lewis: Bruce Lee told me that he wanted to prove to the world that the Chinese martial artists were superior to all the other races, the Koreans, the Japanese, and in particular, the Caucasians. At that  time, no one knew that "Enter the Dragon" was going to become a major $300,000,000 mega film. My advisors told me not to do martial arts  films period."  In this context, "$300m" seems to be an exaggeration/joke, and should not be used as a reference for the movie's actual revenue.

According to the following references, Enter the Dragon is not in the list of $300m+ films, or rather not in the list at all: List of top-grossing movies in the United States and Canada, boxofficemojo.com, the-movie-times.com Shawnc 13:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

(Edit) The sites noted above do not actually include Enter the Dragon inside of their database for some undisclosed reason.

Jiddu Krishnamurti
On List of Influences, there should be a link to Jiddu Krishnamurti, a contemporary philosopher Lee read aggressively. I never quite understood Lee's philosophy writings 'til I read Krishnamurti in school, and they're exactly the same on many levels. I wrote the Lee Estate, and they confirmed it, that Krishnamurti was one of Lee's favorite authors and a major influence on him. Mrcolj 14:20, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone deleted my list of Krishnamurti on list of influential people, without discussing it here. No one who has studied Bruce Lee would have deleted that.  Someone give me a pro or con before you do something like that.  --Mrcolj 18:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Krishnamurti probably should top that list. If the not, the list is a ridiculous compilation of personal favorites and should be trashed.--ShuckyDucky 18:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Joe Lewis/Joe Louis
The link that had been there for Joe Lewis goes to a page about a British soccer player by that name. The current link goes to the boxer Joe Louis. I do not know of any connection between Bruce Lee and Joe Louis. The martial artist Joe Lewis is surely the person intended. The name should not be internally linked until there is a Joe Lewis page here. JJL 15:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Good point

comment
Bruce Lee-The greatest martial artist of all time. With regards to the personal challenge, bruce won the fight in 3 minutes which was too long for him. He realized how out of shape he was and startred the fitness regime. Lee could take on anyone and beat them in a fight. I know for my uncle challenged bruce lee and lost the fight in 35 seconds. My uncle at that time was a russian martial artist who had fought in the military and was fluent in the russian system. My uncle invented his own style of russian combat called Prezviat, which is taught by all the secret service. He has over 45 years experience in martial arts and was more than qualified to challenge bruce lee. Yet he lost. Bruce Lee was that good, no make it that damn good. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.172.228.206 (talk • contribs).

Coburn comment on bag
1) "Explode" means "a sudden increase in volume and release of energy in a violent manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases". Please don't use this technical word. 2) Coburn mentioned 1 bag, not 2 or more; the noun should be bag not bags. 3) A kick is a kick, no need for a peacock word like "simple". Shawnc 23:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Manual of Style (biographies)
We know Bruce was influential and that he opened up interest in Chinese martial arts in the west, but the claims of perfection, assertions of motive and hero worship that keep popping up are still not appropriate for this (or any) article. Please see Manual of Style (biographies). --Fire Star 08:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I particularly like this one: ”Bruce would ride for 45 minutes (16 Kilometres) (10 miles) on a stationary bike, sweating profusely afterwards. ” I've removed it because it is (1) not very impressive (I can ride that far and sweat profusely too), (2) Makes no sense (how is 10 miles equivalent to 45 minutes?), and (3) IS JUST PLAIN WEIRD. 195.xx.xx.xxx 15:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits
I've reverted the most recent spate of edits as they remove some info from the article, are mostly unsourced and seem geared to present Bruce as a tough guy. It would be just as easy to say that he was a child of privilege, but we can't put that in the article, either. --Fire Star 05:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I apologize in advance, but some of the kids in my school have a 'Chuck Norris' obsession and wrongfully edited Bruce Lee's article. Although it would block me from editing at school as well, I think this IP (216.169.169.126) should be blocked from editing Wikipedia articles in the future. --Hieros 20:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's OK, we get a relatively high volume of vandalism on this and many other sensational, controversial or high traffic articles. A few edits from one school isn't enough to permanently block an IP address. If it gets really bad we can block for a day or so. Regards, --Fire Star 19:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

On the List of fictional characters based on Bruce Lee
Agreed, this doesn't really belong here. The article is about Bruce Lee NOT animae games, etc. Maybe adding a link to the new page and saying something to the effect: Bruce Lee's popularity continues till this day as seen in the numerous "Insert".... FrankWilliams 00:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * A new article on Bruce Lee and popular culture (or some such) would be good, as the present article is quite long. Another thing we could do is move all but the most basic info about JKD and its history to the Jeet Kune Do page. --Fire Star 01:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I totaly agree. Maybe an article List of fictional characters based on Bruce Lee would not be enough but an complete article about influence that Bruce Lee made to popular culture would greatly releave this article, and made it more readable. Also a move of JKD history would benefit this article as well. Now only it only takes someone to actualy do all the moves.
 * BTW it's spelled anime or animé :) --RockyMM 15:03, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Other films
Bruce's father was in the entertainment business (Chinese Opera and movies), hence Bruce Lee had many opportunities to participate in movies when he was a kid. This article only lists the movies that he played the main roles. The information about other roles should at least deserve a trivia section on this talk page. Feel free to add more if you remember others. Kowloonese 20:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

List of earlier films Lee Siu Lung played a supporting role
Note that the English titles here were made up by my literal translation, not official titles. So please use the Chinese original title to disamb.
 * Girl at the Golden Gate (《金門女》, 1940) -- Bruce played a 3 month old infant.
 * A brat called Cheung (《細路祥》 or The Kid, 1948) -- Bruce played one of the brats.
 * Thunderstorm (《雷雨》, 1957) -- Bruce played a teenager in an incestuous family.
 * A lonely goose on the sea of people (《人海孤鴻》 means Orphan, 1961) -- Bruce played a teenager whose ear was cut off by a kidnapper for use as attachment to the ransom note.
 * 《人之初》1951
 * 《孤星血淚》
 * 《富貴浮雲》1946
 * 《苦海明燈》
 * 《慈母淚》
 * 《父之過》
 * 《千萬人家》
 * 《危樓春曉》
 * 《愛》續集
 * 《孤星血淚》
 * 《守得雲開見月明》1955
 * 《孤兒行》
 * 《兒女債》
 * 《詐癲納福》1956
 * 《早知當初我唔嫁》1956
 * 《甜姐兒》
 * etc.


 * This gets my vote for an addition, it would be nice to see this in there!

new referencing format
A new referencing format is being implemented. Please observe the new examples in the article or refer to this page for guidance. Shawnc 03:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

CG resurrection
This section needs to be updated or removed. The two articles it references (which claim that a CGI film of the game "Dragon Warrior" would star a digitized "resurrected" Bruce Lee) are from 2001. Was the film ever completed? A brief check of IMDB seems to imply that no such film was ever released. (My theory is that they were expecting the Final Fantasy movie to begin a phenomenon, and they planned to ride on the coattails of that phenomenon - which never occurred.) This should probably be relegated to a bit of trivia, or deleted entirely. --IQpierce 05:09, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I added the section CG resurrection, I can understand it's deletion. It remains a curious episode that people may want to find out more about. I remember seeing a trailer for this film (and it looked pretty good), so some footage was done. I certainly would like to know what happened to it.--Darrelljon 20:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I've seen the entire film. It's only a couple of minutes long, nothing special. And yes, it was never finished,

Clean up tag
I've added clean up tag mostly because the article needs to be reviewed and sorted out. For example, "Feats and Quotes" section, Filmography, Bibliogrpahy, and more. It should be reviewed so that the article becomes more readable, and has more consistent style throghout the sections. Also, after some vandalism stayed on the article for two days or more, I thought that it would be a good idea to review the article and find out is there any more subversive vandalisms and/or unsourced statements or anything else in that manner. --RockyMM 17:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Note that there have been numerous anonymous edits with no edit summaries, and some content had been removed. Anyway, we can use this space to discuss various issues we see. I'll start:
 * Some ideas in the intro paragraph could be condensed more. Also "Enter the Dragon" was more popular in the West than in Hong Kong.
 * I think "Bruce Lee's feats" is POV.
 * The Philosophy section is unsourced, long and potentially redundant with Wikiquotes.
 * "List of people influential to Bruce Lee" should be in alphabetical order.
 * Bruce Lee should be referred to as just "Lee" in the article.
 * There's too much redundant wikifying. Shawnc 07:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Although this is a popular wiki and recievs a high amount of traffic and vandalism, it is in need of a serious makeover.  I've tried to streamline it a bit, but there is quite a bit of editng needed.  Compared to what it used to look like there has been some nice editions(pictures, etc.), some bad deletions(info on family???) and quite a bit of clutter (messy and hard to sort through).  Not to make a complaint and leave it at that **cough,cough,AHEM**, I will make changes here and there when I can.  The biggest thing I would like to add to the discussion would be the article should concentrate Bruce Lee.  A little more personal info on his life, and a little less on his physical prowess.  And before anyone will say "these are the same thing", well sure but isn't there a Wiki for these though??ShuckyDucky 23:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The "List of people influential to Bruce Lee" is already alphabetized. The "Bruce Lee's feats" sections is well-sourced and is not POV. Bruce Lee's feats and achievements are notable.


 * "List of people influential to Bruce Lee" what purpose does this serve? Other than Raymond Chow, this list is repetitive(half the people on there are listed elsewhere just above!), useless and/or unfinished by far!  Jackie Chan?? C'mon!(Ok he's off) What about Lee's family?  What about the person that put him on the Green Hornet show?  What about the bully that beat him up when he was really young so he decided to take up marial arts?  I could think up a few more but...why?  It obviously does not serve a purpose at all and should go away


 * The "List of people influential to Bruce Lee" serves the purpose of listing notable people that significantly influenced Bruce Lee's martial arts or career.


 * Perhaps this list should be in the Jeet Kune Do article?? Or if you are still adamant it should be in this article perhaps a closer look at the names would help.  Raymond Chow had absolutely nothing to do with his martial arts.  I could make arguments that quite a few did not influence Bruce Lee's martial art.  And again what of all the people that are not listed, this list is by far incomplete if some of these names get the pass.  I would have to think some tidbit of info on the list is personal to you...which in turn would negate it's neutrality.  I suppose your going coddle that list for some reason or other, I could guess why.  I'm sure at this point it is obvious that this list has lost quite a bit a merit to all who can read.  But I shall wait for the consensus....anyone....hello?

I find it curious that the first line in the vandalism article reads: Vandalism is the conspicuous defacement or destruction of a structure or symbol against the will of the owner/governing body. But, regardless, this charge has been leveled against me due to my good intentions of clarification, neatness, and neutrality. Yet I would like to point out a change of CONSPICUOUS nature has been made to one of my postings. I don't have the stamina nor the will to win in an immaturity contest. --ShuckyDucky 18:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

error in the feat section
Jesse Glover: "[...] We timed him with an electric timer once, and Bruce's quickest movements were around five hundredths of a second, his slowest were around eight hundredths. [...]"

Now, there is somewhere a mistake. Either his quickest time or slowest time. 1/500 is bigger than 1/800, thus making no sense when speaking of speed. A eight hundreths of a second is definetly faster than five hundreths. Hope someone can change this.


 * Actually I believe you would read it as .05, which is smaller than .08 (of a second).--ShuckyDucky 20:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I truly believe there is a mistake there. Please someone confirm it. A quarter of a cake, for example, means the cake divided by 4. Five hundreths of a second means a second divided by 500. It may be an expression issue, either way, someone please check on that.


 * I believe your math is off a bit. Five hundreths of a second does not mean 1/500, it would be .05 divided into 1 or 1/20.  More appropiate explanation would be: the cake is a whole 100% or a 1, just as the clock-second is a whole 1, subsets of the seconds are tenths and hundreths.  Most stopwatches measure up to 99 minutes and out to the hundreth of a second(99:99.99).  If you start the watch it counts UP starting at the hundreths.  Thus 10 hundreths is 1 tenth(00:00.10) of 1 second.  10 tenths is a full 1 second.  The qoute is a direct qoute and it is the conventional way to say it. I don't know of any other way you would say that.  "My 40-yard dash was three hundreths of a second faster than yours!"  I'm not sure of how else to explain other than to look up basic arithmetic rules. ShuckyDucky 02:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

SD is correct. This simple math should not even be questioned. 5 hundredths = 5/100 = .05 < .08.

Arsonist named after Lee
I'm sure that on occasion I've referred to Bruce George Peter Lee as a 'see also' on the Bruce Lee page, either at the top of the page or in the 'see also' sub-section but it keeps being removed. He is a renowned serial killer who changed his name in homage to the martial arts star; why is it being constantly removed? I'll put it in again and see what occurs. Bentley Banana 16:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The arsonist named after Bruce Lee is not prominent enough to be at the top of the page.

I agree why is this random, serial killer with the name George Peter Lee at the top of the Bruce Lee page? That is completley bizzare??? The man should be listed as his real name Peter dsinsdale.


 * This random serial killer is completely unrelated and irrelevant to Bruce Lee. This serial killer has a separate article and should not be added to this page.


 * Would be nice if you sign your names after refuting, but hey... right, I'll put it somewhere else. Bentley Banana 09:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Bruce vs "British Boxing Champion"
(I've not figured out how to link internally to a section yet, sorry, it's very late, I hope no one minds)

At the end of this section there's a segment on Bruce Lee's bout vs a 'young british boxing champion', shouldn't there at least be some kind of source or credentials for this (who is this boxer, what is his name, what is he a champion of)?

-JonathanWalsh 01:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Although I did not add that to the article, I do recall reading somewhere the bout was a school function. I don't remember it mentioning anything about him fighting a 'champion'.  I would think unless you went to the school he attended in Hong Kong, you would not get an accurate source for it. - ShuckyDucky 01:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so since I don't really know all the wiki codes, wiki rules and so on and so forth, do you think you could change the "Bruce Lee's first formal, organized bout came as a teenager at his high school in Hong Kong. He was to fight a young British boxer, a reigning two-time boxing champion. Bruce knocked his opponent out with repeated strikes, using the Wing Chun technique jik chung chuy." part into something more fact-supported?

If not, I guess I could give it a try! JonathanWalsh 12:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That is a fact. The information comes from The Bruce Lee Story. Take a look at the authors before questioning it. I have read the book myself and it seems very reliable. 71.124.114.26 01:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The original question is why isn't sourced? Why not?  Instead of making a statement that is not helpful in any way, source it!  This article is rife with inaccuracies and bloated with unneeded info.  If someone can make a dent into fixing this article FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW ABOUT BRUCE LEE than I commend you.  Rather this article seems to be used by fans of Bruce Lee who would rather idolize him than put factual info into it! -- ShuckyDucky 01:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter who the authors are if the book isn't listed as a source + we still need the name of this 'champion'. Can't just trust someone saying he's a champ, because even good people pass on false information every now and then

-JonathanWalsh 00:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

But you have no specific reason to believe the information in the book is false. 'The Bruce Lee Story' is also one of the top three Bruce Lee books of all time. Let me ask you something. What do you believe? How do you know anything you read is true? 71.124.113.34 03:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, baby steps. A misunderstanding has led you to make two assertions and ask two questions.  First, no one states the information is false.  Again, I will re-state the question.  Why is it not sourced?  Perhaps my statements earlier are misleading, but then again I do not have access to the book and thus a proper source.  You could source it, couldn't you?  The second assertion you make is about 'the top three Brue Lee books of all time'.  This is an example of a highly non-neutral point of view.  You are entitled to your opinion, as they say, as long as this opinion does not effect an encylopedic article.  In any case this is a moot point.  Last, the two questions you asked are due to your misunderstanding.  None the less they are also highly fallacious, and I would say that you should try a more productive line of reasoning.  Is this all clear? Now how about a source? -- ShuckyDucky 04:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok I've found this: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000045/bio and http://www.wingchun.com/ROLF.htm so at least now we have a name - Gary Elms. Maybe some more details would be nice, but hm, if anyone feels like editing this in it would be nice (I don't have much wikicode knowledge and dont want to rdestroy anything!).

-JonathanWalsh 01:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

If Gary Elms actually was a boxing champion, one would expect him to be found in boxrec.com's database. He isn't.


 * Oh hehe, well, maybe he was something like school champion and it got exaggerated into national champion, or maybe he was just a regular joe like Lee himself was at the time.

-85.224.96.165 11:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, thought I was logged in, I wrote the part above, how come there's no IP or ID showing for the guy who mentioned boxrec.com etc? -JonathanWalsh 16:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Bruce main image
First off, the Bruceflex.jpg has been on wikipedia for over a year and is considered a standard image and it is in public domain. Stop reverting the image to the shot where he is in underwear etc...that image is not approriate for wikipedia, also it is shot completley from the side, face is contored and has background characters. -colossus34 01:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The introduction mentions two things. The movie Enter the Dragon and Bruce Lee's innovation in MMA. The other picuture is set in the movie and in that scene Bruce Lee is demonstrating MMA (MMA fighters fight in their "underwear" as you call it). Secondly, the Bruceflex pic has half his face covered and has an obsolete copyright tag. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.124.114.26 (talk • contribs).


 * Like I said, the Bruceflex.jpg has been on wikipedia for over a year and is considered a standard image and it is in public domain. The tag needs to be renewed. The underwear shot is not approriate for wikipedia, it does not follow the guidlines of ideal main images. Not only is the avearge person not going to infer that he's demonstrating MMA but the entire body is contorted to the side, we see Bruce from an odd angle, and their is other characters in the background.-colossus34 01:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no such thing as a "standard" image. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.124.114.26 (talk • contribs).


 * Is Bruceflex.jpg really in public domain? In any case, suitable public domain images should be used over copyrighted ones whenever possible. Shawnc 12:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the bruceflex.jpg shot is a publicity image released into the public domain so it is fair use. Plus it is a better image.Colossus34

So colossus34 uploaded the bruceflex image. It all makes sense now. How do you know that the image is in public domain? Warner Brothers owns all the rights to Bruce Lee images from the film Enter the Dragon so the image cannot be in public domain. How do you know the coypright has expired? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.124.114.26 (talk • contribs).

List of Influential People
Deleted the so called list. The list seemed to be a compilation of personal favorites thereby making it highly non-neutral(see Jiddu Krishnamurti above). Regardless, this list either had inaccurate and unsourced info or just plain repeated information thereby wikified this article(also see above).ShuckyDucky 17:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Wong Jack Man and Jeet Kune Do
Lee came up with JKD after he fought Wong, not before. When he fought Wong he was mostly a Wing Chun practitioner. Source: "...Bruce Lee fans...may argue that the outcome would have been different had the two battled a few years after Lee had developed his own style, Jeet Kune Do."

The section is also filled with mostly pro-Lee POVs. Shawnc 02:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Bruce Lee's movie career
Why is there no info on how Bruce Lee got superstar status in Hong Kong with Big Boss, Fists of Fury etc. I think there should be a section on his movie career.Shakirfan 23:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There is ... actually there's two. It's interesting to see how an article slowly devolves.

Bruce Lee 1inch punch
Bruce Lee gave to the world a deeper understanding of asian martial arts wich have been an inspiration for many western societies to participate in a deeper knowledge of ones self, though martial arts. When Bruce Lee demonstasted his 1inch punch he proved that with proper breathing techniques and concentration with a fit body that a powerful strike could be delivered on an opponent in a small space.

Filmography
Why did the film Bruce Lee: The Man the Myth get cut? It's a film starrin Bruce Lee.


 * No need to ask the question twice. The film does not star Bruce Lee, it is about him.  Does not belong in his Filmography, was moved to the Documentary section.  What should be included in the Filmography section is the other films he starred in as a child.  Do you have a list of these?
 * I can confirm that Sifu Lee didn't star in that film...it wasn't even weird one like Game of Death where they cut bits of all his other films to make a beginning and middle bit of the film as he had already made the ending before his death. As far as I know he started in a lot of dramas and had small roles in films...mostly playing delinquent teens...or am I thinking of James Dean? :) JEBenson 23:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Nutrition - Cow's Blood
Hi I added that Sifu Lee had been reported as using cow's blood to increase appetite...I'm 99.9% sure I read this in one of his books maybe in Tao of Jeet Kwando but can someone else please confirm this. Thanks :) JEBenson 23:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Not in any of his books i've read. Not in Tao of JKD either. Sounds like nonsense.Wikidudeman 14:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Vladamir: I to find this hard to beleive, read the art of expressing the human body and you will find that his diet was compised mostly of fish, meat, rice, vegtables, and smoothies for protien.

Reinvigorating San Francisco?
I find the following statement a little strange:
 * Bruce's Cantonese given name, 振藩 (Jun Fan Cantonese: Janfàan Pinyin: Zhènfán), literally means "invigorate San Francisco."

Doesn't 振藩 literally mean "shake the fence"?

-Adjusting 19:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Clean up needed
Much of the new content appears to be from older versions, eg. "Many who witnessed the fight believed Lee had won the duel." The weasel term "many" implies a majority point of view which is unsourced and is therefore POV. The phrase "for unknown reasons" is unnecessarily speculative and was already removed from the Wong Jack Man article. Also, again, Lee came up with JKD after he fought Wong; see the "Wong Jack Man and Jeet Kune Do" section above. This means the "Beyond Jeet Kune Do" title is erroneous. Also, the sentence "However, Lee did not agree with this account" is unsourced: there is no citation which states that Lee specifically denied Wong's claim about the alleged open challenge to all martial artists. NPOV-minded editors should make the necessary changes. Shawnc 06:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I am going to restate that on the 19th of December there was a major revert edit of the article. Furthermore I've noticed that this page is trolled to often for NPOV-minded editors to make necessary changes, like the simple fact that Lee's Filmography and Acting career spanned his whole life and not just the last 5 years. - ShuckyDucky 20:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Notification
I have taken the issue to Village pump (miscellaneous). Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Obviously, you were trying to evade the above irrefutable explanations, and took the issue to somewhere else with your one sided comments. Also your comments approached No personal attacks, Etiquette. I don’t know what’s your purpose here (apart from anti-Chinese), but please keep the dispute here nicely and try to controvert the explanations itself. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Your most notable contribution to this 'discussion' which has yet to take off due to your refusal to provide sources for your expressed views has been to call other editors "racist" for not agreeing with you. In this view, your repeated references to talk page are a mockery of WP dispute resolution procedure, and nothing but a thinly disguised attempts at asserting yourself by an edit war. You are not seriously interested in solving the dispute by arguments. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

There were plenty of explanations to this dispute by other editors above, please try to controvert the explanations first before you edit this article. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Either you are unwilling or unable to understand that simply asserting things is not enough on WP. Read Verifiability and provide evidence. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Same to you, provide evidence to support your dispute. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Undefeatedcooler, regardless of how much you believe in your side of this dispute, you will not engage in personal attacks on other users again. You should have had several warnings by now having read your contributions. Secondly, previous content in the article, or any other Wikipedia article, is not a reliable source. You can't cite Wikipedia because, paradoxically, Wikipedia does not trust itself. If you can provide external, reliable sources to support your side of the argument then that is fine, but as of yet I can't see a single external link to such a source in your posts. Please do so. Thank you. SGGH ping! 09:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Undefeatedcooler, shifting the burden of evidence does not work. Verifiability explicitly states that

The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.

And I hereby challenge your material. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Somebody has been considered this article is different from other articles. Many other articles have inscribed ethnicity in categories, why suddenly disallow in this article?

I don't see any reason why Bruce Lee's surname being removed in this article? And why Hong Kong citizens of Chinese descent can not referring as Chinese?

Nobody can ever provide external, reliable sources stated that Bruce Lee did not renounce his US citizenship when he returned to HK in 1971. And no reliable sources stated he wasn't Chinese apart from American. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Both of you are heading ito 3RR territory. Bring this to the talk page and let's discuss it, but do so coherently so people can understand it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * It already long here (Talk:Bruce Lee), but we have made not one bit of progress due to Undefeatedcoller's refusal to play by WP guidelines. So, to repeat myself: For the categories I would like to see either a Wikipedia guideline which allows also entries on the basis of ethnicity, or, if the exclusive criteria is nationality, a reference to a solid source about Lee being a Chinese, that is PRCh citizen. You listed him as Chinese, you provide the proof. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a big mistake.

Gun Powder Ma is the one who wants to make any changes from a “long-term support version” of Bruce Lee’s article.

Gun Powder Ma should be the one needed to provide external, reliable sources and reasonably explanations to support his/her dispute. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 03:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:24, 3 May 2016 (UTC)