Talk:Brushless DC electric motor/Archive 1

High power motors
"High power BLDC motors are found in electric vehicles" Why arn't hey used on railed vehicles? Is its becuase asynchronous motor are preffered there due to absence of permenant magnets?Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian)


 * I think you've got it. A traction motor leads an awful life, getting hot, dirty, overloaded, mechanically shocked, and often flooded and/or poorly maintained. The AC induction motor is just about the simplest, most-rugged design in existence so it suits the application very well. By comparison, given the fact that either an induction motor or a BLDC motor would have sophisticated high-powered drive electronics, I'm not sure there'd be any advantage to using the BLDC over the induction motor.


 * Atlant 12:49, 12 March 2006 (UTC)/

German Wiki Entry
As I already wrote into the german wiki (sorry for the google assited translation):

There are three kinds:


 * With the stepping motor a constant holding current stamps the phases blindly switched. This is used, if the load is well-known and constant or only small achievements b.z.w. Losses arise. It is to be noted that hard switching of the phases leads in connection with the Rotational Inertia and the inertia of the rotor to a resonance, which is absorbed by the absorber cage because of the missing feedback only by the soft iron, b.z.w with the three-phase alternating current synchronous machine.


 * As is the case for the brush-afflicted d.c. machine is constantly measured the phases can as a function of the situation of the rotor are switched, therefore it e.g. by means of hall effect sensors with high-quality industrial engines (e.g. servo actuators).

Arnero 18:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * For e.g. the drive of a propeller low is needed torque and it a stepping motor are used at low numbers of revolutions. As soon as the number of revolutions rises thus resonance occur can and the necessary torque at the propeller becomes larger, induces the motor also a measurable voltage to determine the position of the rotor . This variant is called in English “sensorless”.

And then there is the possibility to replace the permanent magnets with electro magnets and do all kind of nasty stuff like: And of course you are free to mix all these. This techniques may still be important for superconducting motors which produce fields strengths wich saturate iron 128.176.151.112 07:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * inducing voltage from one winding into the other like in a transformer
 * series circuit
 * parallel circuit

Can someone add an explanation what DURKA is? I can not find anything meaningful in the internet...

All that the above suggested “to do/ can do ” is why permanent magnet brushless DC motors have been developed as a superior replacement for all DC motors that have come before ( with the exception of cost).

Inducing voltage from one winding to another is the classic AC induction motor.

DC wire coiled electromagnetic stator/rotor motors ( ie brushed) are designed so that the mutual inductances are in quaduature ( ie mutual inductance M=0); but this is never perfect, and the imperfections are known as armature reaction, etc

Classic DC motors have the rotor and stator electromagnetic circuits in series or parrallel ( ie shunt wound) or a combination thereof ( ie compond motors)

So you are a very good historian of DC motor technology.

Today the variable voltage controlling the high power stage (ampligier) suppling the field windings for a PMDC motor is digital logic level ( ie 3-5 volt logic circuit/computer), usually using PWM ( ie pulse width modulation where the duty cycle is the percentage/fraction of the bus/supply voltage applied to the coil -- basically a switch DC power supply).

For a shunt wound DC motor rpm is nearly linear with voltage, and even more linear with PMDC. Before we had high voltage semiconductors ( ie transistors) that could switch .5 to 1 kilovolt via PWM, the variable field voltage of the DC motors could be supplied by a companion DC generator! Electron pond 22:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Theory of Operation
There should be a section on the theory of operation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kfrance (talk • contribs).


 * I have been working a bit with control of a BLDC for precise servo operations. I would recommend including a little note on using the Clarke & Park transforms which is commonly used in several high performance architectures and is a mere mathematical approach to the theory of controlling both AC and BLDC motor types.
 * --Tobibobi 10:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Lower noise
I don't think that the BLDCMs are more quite than the classical DC motors. The abrupt switches of the phases result in sudden movements of the coils inside the motor. When the magnetic field of a coil changes it is attracted toward another coil. This process repeats every time a phase switch occurs.


 * This is not necessarily the case. It's quite possible to ramp up and down the phase current to avoid the rapid field change.  This adds cost so is often not done in small motors, which can have an audible 'tick" at commutation frequency.  But that's an artifact of a cheap commutator, rather than an inherent feature of a BLDC motor.60.234.130.225 02:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The main problem with DC brushed motor noise is the arcing. It is certainly possible that a crappy DC controller could output more noise... well.. maybe not. Kipperoo 01:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone comment on the relative electronic noise of brushless DC motors vs AC motors?165.123.243.168 18:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * In small (.5-1 HP) motors, there is a significant decrease in noise levels between BLDC and induction, especially when speed control is taken into account. It's one of the main reason why some HVAC systems use BLDC motors instead of AC...the current losses that make AC more inefficient also create a bunch of noise. DC motors are whisper quiet in comparison. Jeremy RBC 16:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Comparing an AC motor to a DC Brushless motor is really difficult because the line is so blurred. I think this is more a question of the behavior of individual controllers.    Kipperoo 01:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * However -- sine waves -- a function more related to AC motor controllers, will output a cleaner "noise" on one frequency (and perhaps noise on the PWM frequency). Because DC Brushless motors tend to output very square-ish waves, they will output more erratic noise.  Still, other components of the circuits can make this generality untrue. Kipperoo 01:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Spam
A link to electojects.com has been repeatedly added to Stepper motor, Electric motor and Brushless DC electric motor by Special:Contributions/217.53.109.235, Special:Contributions/82.201.156.201, Special:Contributions/217.53.107.168, Special:Contributions/217.53.16.164, and others.

The link in question is registered to Abdoh Ali Mohamed, Hay Swesri, Nasr City, Cairo, Egypt.

I wonder if the four IP addresses listed above have any connection... Naw, couldn't be. Egypt is a big country. Must be a coincidence.

I'm going to start patrolling wikipedia for any links to electojects.com or redirects to it and deleting them on sight. If they come back, I'll move to blacklist the address. Mdsummermsw (talk) 18:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Winding connections & torque....
This article states the age old misunderstanding that a star ("wye") wound motor produces more torque but less top end, where a delta wound motor produces less torque and more top end... when infact a star/wye wound motor produces only 33% of the starting torque that a delta wound motor does

I'm not very familiar with brushless motors but I cant see how it would be any different to an AC induction motor

122.108.44.97 (talk) 06:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Regenerative Braking
A permanent magnet DC motor can be used to charge the battery in an electric vehicle going downhill. This is especially so if gears are available so that the rpm of the DC motor can be increased. My question is: can a BLDC motor become a generator the same way. Does it depend on the controller design? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.187.145.41 (talk) 00:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Regenerative braking does occur in BLDC-based vehicles. The "easiest" controller design usually employs many diode-like behaviors, making current flow only one way, so this is not normally possible.  If I were to lay out a controller meant to do this, I would implement a way to "switch" the motor's leads between the BLDC controller output and a rectifier connected to the battery-charging circuit... the controller would automatically activate the rectifier when the governor (device) (or program) determines that the motor needs to slow down rather than speed up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.79.164.211 (talk) 04:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Regenerative braking is possible with permanent magnet motors. In normal two-quadrant controllers, power will flow back into the batteries if the back-EMF voltage is above the battery voltage. On vehicles employing direct-drive permanent magnet motors, such as ebikes using hub motors, this will happen whenever the vehicle's speed is greater than the motor's maximum speed (at a given battery voltage), such as on long downhills. This sort of regenerative braking can not be engaged at will and is not useful for stopping, but it can (and will) happen automatically with most any brushless controller. True regenerative braking requires extra control electronics, typically a four-quadrant controller (so called because it can operate in all four regions of motor power, positive and negative speed and torque. In the case of regenerative braking, the positive speed negative torque quadrant is salient). Such controllers more complex and consequently more expensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.225.70.76 (talk) 07:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

kV rating?
May I request an explanation of what the kV rating is? I understand that it is the proportionality constant between RPM and applied voltage, but a good definition would be nice. Searching for kv on wikipedia leads here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.171.29 (talk) 20:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I've just added this - but it's still not a very good definition. Does 'K' just stand for proportionality constant, or does it mean something specific? Is "the" applied voltage the RMS 3-phase voltage? Or does "the" voltage mean the DC voltage, supplied to the motor controller?. Presumably Kv refers to the unloaded RPM - but how much does the RPM change under load? (An ideal motor has an exact relation between voltage and rpm; if there is more load, the motor simply draws more current. But a real-world motor has some resistance, so RPM drops under load, even when the supply voltage is maintained. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.171.29 (talk) 20:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The section reads as nonsense and so has been removed. If someone understands what it was trying to convey, and can rewrite it to make sense, then it can be reinstated.  20.133.0.13 (talk) 15:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I restored that section and added a couple of references. But I think it's still a bit misleading and needs a lot of improvement.
 * --68.0.124.33 (talk) 15:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Tightening this article, merging, bias towards micro and hobby scene
Just to say hi to contributors, really. I may keep popping by and tightening bits here and there, probably the language more than the core content. I've lubricated the intro para which I had to read several times and cross check to get the meaning. I agree the two motor articles should be merged. I'm busy with another multipage mega-merger at the moment. I would like to see more proportionate representation of real world occurrences of these motors than of micro-hobby applications, though I appreciate that's where the contributor's experience may be. BLDC motors in the 250W-1kW range are becoming seriously mainstream now with the e-bike revolution - 10M eBikes sold per annum in China, though only the higher end of market will be BLDC, not to mention the traditional industrial servo- (stepper)-motor applications, which I guess may come from the article merger. Trev M (talk) 20:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Added an animation of Brushless DC Motor Theory
The animation shows the 3 phases and how they produce a rotating field. It also shows the relative strengths of the fields in real time. And shows how they quite obviously would rotate a permanent magnet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.174.31 (talk) 18:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

2nd image removal
This image shows the power circuit of a simple inverter (or something) - it's only got one pole! - the text is too garbled to use - attempt to describe PWM or similar - this would be better dealt with properly at the page about inverters.Oranjblud (talk) 21:29, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Disputed part

 * Under high mechanical loads, BLDC motors and high-quality brushed motors are comparable in efficiency

I've marked this as "disputed" - it may be true but it needs explaining, and reliable sources. I'm not convinced/aware that is is correct either.Oranjblud (talk) 21:36, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Motor constants
Removed two sections http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brushless_DC_electric_motor&diff=483433473&oldid=483432770

Nothing obviously wrong with these, except that they are about general topics and could apply to a wide variety of topics- I've moved them to Talk:Electric motor.

What could be relevant here is typical values or a comparison of typical values with other motor types.Oranjblud (talk) 21:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I've restored them. They're really too specific to brushless motors to put them in the already large broad motor article. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I re-removed them - it occurs to me that I could rapidly convert these sections into stub articles, and then link to them - which would be more useful - both are relavent to brushed DC motors, and probably other motor types.Oranjblud (talk) 22:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Ive created Motor constants - and linked to it. I'll also add links from other articles that are obvious ie DC motor. Hope that is ok.Oranjblud (talk) 22:24, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The motor articles aren't good enough that I'm going to argue to try and preserve their quality, but this is still a bad deletion. As I've just read your talk page and seen your list of admitted "past accounts" (ahem), I won't be expecting technically clueful edits any time soon. Maybe Wtshymanski has more tenacity to sort this out? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:30, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The terms apply to both DC brushed and brushless motors - I've linked to the article from both. There is no deletion.Oranjblud (talk) 22:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I look forward with interest to the references you'll be adding for Kv as applied to brushed motors. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:57, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Already is one - if you want more try google or a library here's a google link. Oranjblud (talk) 23:03, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Kv.
 * I also already know how to use Google. As to refs, one's a deadlink to a hobby shop, the other (hardly surprisingly) doesn't mention Kv. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * (reply removed - I sense you are just trolling - if you have any constructive additions to make please do so.)
 * Hopefully the addition of the variety of terms used will satisfy you http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Motor_constants&oldid=483457843 - the use of various terms generally is referenced
 * The term "back emf constant" appears more common. If you are not satisfied then improve it yourself, don't complain to me. ThanksOranjblud (talk) 01:23, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's a hint:  Andy Dingley (talk) 01:25, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure what that has to do with what you were saying - but someone else has already questioned that at, and the link they provided still works http://www.topbandmotor.com/en/chi/products_info.aspx?pid=153&comid=113 = which shows a non-linear relationship. What is your point? Oranjblud (talk) 01:32, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

History
who invented it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.30.17 (talk) 09:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I dont know who actually invented the BLDC motor concept, or when, but there is one very interesting BLDC motor example that uses this technology in a washing machine. The company that originally devoloped this is Fisher & Paykel Ltd, based in New Zealand, and as I understand, they introduced their version of multipole BLDC motor in 1998, in a product range that they coined the 'SmartDrive'. The interesting thing about this motor is that it has 42 seperate windings but still conforms to the standard 3 phase configuration of the BLDC motor. Obviously it has great advantages in terms of slow speed agitation, in both directions, whilst still being able to spin at high speed. Internal photos of these motors can be seen at http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/pdf/What%20is%20a%20Smart%20Drive.pdf. I would also add that these multipole motors are also very popular amongst doityourself windmill and water turbine developers, used as a low speed alternator. Gyroxic (talk) 05:44, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19750007247_1975007247.pdf unfortuntately partially garbled
 * also see http://www.nmbtc.com/brushless-dc-motors/brushless-dc-motors.html
 * It seems widedy accepted that the first description of the modern form was around 1962 - by T.G. Wilson and P.H. Trickey Oranjblud (talk) 15:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Trapezoidal BackEMF
BackEMF of a DC brushless motor is NOT trapezoidal; it only looks that way when measured on a single leg of a motor being driven at full power. The period at the "sides" of the trapezoid, called zero-cross, is where back-EMF measurement takes place, and it IS sinusoidal. All other times, the leg is being driven high and low, interfering with the sinusoidal back-EMF. If you were to disconnect the controller and spin the motor, turn its output power down or use an outrageously inefficient controller, you would see that the wave is still sinusoidal.

Also, this picture might be useful in the current context: http://www.slowfly.com/press/ViolatorMotor.jpg It is a picture of the atypically small Violator, a "3D plane" (having more thrust than weight) produced by Dynamics Unlimited, which is now out of business. The Violator features a DC brushless "outrunner" motor, with the BLC-1, the world's smallest brushless motor controller. I designed the electronics, built the plane, and took the picture myself. Wiki is welcome to use it, no strings attached. Kipperoo 07:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I did all this... I tried to address the trapezoidal shape without invalidating it.  Was I a little too verbose in the picture descriptions? Kipperoo 06:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The BackEMF of a DC brushless motor can be trapezoidal. Maybe yours was not. When designing the magnetic circuit of a BLDC motor the goal of the magnetic flux distibution in the air gap can be trapezodial or sinusoidal, or any other waveform. The goal of trapezodial BEMF is low torque ripple when driven by a flat top current pulse ( as opposed to a sinusoidal current). In other words the flat top of the trapezoid ( ie pulse with sloping sides) is "pure DC". Since you sound like an observant experimenter, try looking at the synthesized sinewave voltage pulses coming out the controller. Those variable spaced PWM pulses ( a sinusoidal distributed duty cycle) are smoothed to a sinewave current by the motor coil inductance and calling them sinusoidal may be generous indeed. Also, try thinking of the input current pulse to a trapezoidal BEMF phase at the the clipped fundamental of the Fourier series of the pulse.

Shaping the mangnets and distributing the windings for sinewave BEMF is more challenging than trapezodial. You can run a sinewave BEMF motor with flat top current pulses with only a minor degradation in efficency and a little extra torque ripple ( on big motors rotor inertia wil take care of the ripple).

Electron pond 21:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Considering I designed the controller, software included, I know what's coming out is square (plus PWM when it's not running at full power)... actually, it's high, Hi-Z, low, Hi-Z, etc... Anyways, I see what you're saying.  When building the motor, my goal was to get the magnets to hug the laminations as closely as possible, with 25% gaps between the magnets -- I assume this yielded the sine shape.  I saw no significant difference between my motor and other DC Brushless motors, but I was not looking too carefully at the "purity" of the sine.  Perhaps my own motor's power and efficiency can be attributed to the cause of its sinusoidal back-emf.

Anyways, I still maintain that BLDC motors are not going to have noticeably trapezoidal back-emf; the magnets are moving in a continuous circle. Although the receiving coil is not centered on its orbit, the coil does have the smoothing properties of an inductor, and the magnets will never make a change in their orbit so sudden that it induces a sharp trapezoid "corner". Kipperoo 01:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

From Atmel's app note http://www.atmel.com/images/doc8012.pdf

The generally accepted definition of a BLDC motor is a permanent magnet motor with trapezoidal back-EMF, as opposed to the sinusoidal back-EMF found in permanent- magnet synchronous  motor. This application  note  applies  to  BLDC  motors  with trapezoidal back-EMF. The typical trapezoidal back-EMF waveforms and corresponding driving voltages of a 3-phase BLDC are shown in Figure 1. In every commutation step, one phase winding is connected to positive supply voltage, one phase winding is connected to negative supply voltage  and  one  phase  is  floating. The back-EMF  in  the  floating  phase  will result in a zero crossing when it crosses the average of the positive and negative supply voltage. The zero crossings are marked as ZC in Figure 1. The zero crossing occurs right in the middle of two commutations. At constant speed, or slowly varying speed, the time period from one commutation to zero-crossing and the time period from zero-crossing to the next commutation are equal. This is used as basis for this implementation of sensorless commutation control. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wamnet (talk • contribs) 15:19, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I blockquoted that for you.

It is true 50% of the time. The claim of an accepted definition just isn't matched by all other sources, though it is common. The other 50% of sources distinguish between two variants "trapezoidal BLDC" and "sinousoidal BLDC", or don't make the distinction. Oranjblud (talk) 16:05, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Other removals
Removed this image - to put it simply - fact? source? I've got no evidence for a straight line.Oranjblud (talk) 21:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * To clarify - it's the 'intermittent torque' label that is the problem -excluding cogging (which wouldn't affect peak torque anyway) I would expect the linear relationship not to hold due to overheating -the idea that "intermittent torque" is the reason for the motor not having high torque at low speeds isn't right

There are various academic books that just use (and derive) the linear relationship  etc

The linear graph with negative slope indicates a constant power mode; if the power input is constant and the motor efficiency is not dependent on speed, then the linear equation will be valid.

Although called DC motors, the motor actually receives pulses that approximate three phase current (each phase 120 degree off). The permanet magnets make the performance similar to stepper motors (or synchronous motors, depending on your outlook). At constant input frequency, the motor speed is independent of load, unless the load causes slippage. As load increases, current in the motor actually increases (more in phase with voltage) and power input increases.

However, the controllers are another kind of beast altogether. They manipulate everything depending on the feedback.

Motor performance is not independent of the controller and cannot be considered in isolation.

chami 18:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ck.mitra (talk • contribs)

merge
I suggest merging electronically commutated motor into brushless DC electric motor. As far as I can tell from reading the articles, they are exact synonyms. --68.0.124.33 (talk) 15:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are mostly right (except that "brushless DC motors use AC").
 * Additionally both these motors are a type of stepper motor
 * FengRail (talk) 17:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't forget that "electronically commutated" does not imply "brushless" (which gets less drag, less resistance, and less maintenance by, well, not having brushes). For example, brushes can provide power-only while commutation is provided electronically.  Also, since the common term is "brushless" I would suggest keeping it in the title.  I see "electronically commutated" as a subset of "brushless" as brushless must always be electronically commutated, but electronically commutated doesn't need to be brushless.  71.126.234.136 (talk) 18:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I take a little of that back. Check here for a mechanically commutated brushless motor: http://www.instructables.com/id/Brushless_motor_from_computer_parts 71.126.234.136 (talk) 20:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

rename
Excuse me for stirring up a can of worms - but could the article title be changed - yes "Brushless DC motors" run off DC, but so does a ac motor+dc inverter combination - which is pretty much what these are.

They are a type of stepper motor in design - I would either suggest making the article part of stepper motor, and/or renaming as "electronically commutated motor" ???FengRail (talk) 17:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

BLDC motors do not run on DC in the same sense that an AC motor runs on AC and a DC motor runs on DC.

They need a controller that essentially make the DC into three phase AC. In that sense it is similar to stepper motors. chami 18:37, 2 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ck.mitra (talk • contribs)

Next step
So now the redundant info in ECM and BLDCM is unified. Probably still needs tidying, certainly needs the types defining better, yet concisely, and the industrial apps expanding. Perhaps we now need to look at how stepper and reluctance motor pages apportion info with this one.  Trev M   ~   12:18, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Sine vs trapezium
removed:
 *  Like an AC motor, the voltage on the undriven coils is sinusoidal, but over an entire commutation the output appears trapezoidal because of the DC output of the controller.


 * This may or not be true in certain cases - the driving voltage may be sine-like (or not) (and the pure back-emf - may be sinelike, or quite far off a pure sine wave - depending on design), or a more primited non-modulated pulse - depending on drive electronics - It's impossible to tell what the sentence is saying - mainly due to a lack of references, lack of a clear definition of the case, and mainly because its unclear.


 * Additionally to confuse things I found one source that claims (19.24) that "brushless DC refers to a motor with a trapezoidal winding distribution" .. and seems to suggest that the term is not in use for motors with a drive voltage that is nearer to a sine way. This is directly contradicted by manufacturers product descriptions eg - showing that the terms are not that well defined. It's not clear to me what trapezoidal winding distribution is supposed to mean - do they mean shape?


 * In multi-electro-pole-stator machines the signal may not be sinusoidal - being more like a series of pulses. It's not that clear what is meant by 'trapezoidal' - I assume it refers to pulsed drives (probably on poly-pole motors) rather than a close to three phase supply - without clarity and sources and a clear definition it is all gas.Oranjblud (talk) 03:28, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Article not contradictory. The article isn't contradictory, but the term Brushless DC electric motor, itself does contain a contradiction inasmuch as the device modulates the Drect Current to drive the motor. Since the term is in common use in my view the article itself is not contradictory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teuchter20 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Comparison with brushed-DC motors
I dont see why one winding can be done by machine and annother must be done by hand. Could you clairfy, or perhaps provide illustrations that compare the interior design of the two? I have seen a brushless motor, but for those who havent it also would be nice to have an illustration that shows how the permanent magnets are on a cup that fits around the coils. Thanks.


 * I tried to address this. It's just about who invented machines suitable to wind for a certain motor and when.  There are machine-wound BLDC motors, but it's much less common. Kipperoo 06:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Is this a radio-control hobbyist application focused issue? Because if it is it doesnt belong in a comparison section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.167.41.198 (talk) 04:49, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

RC hobbyist influence on this article
Controllers for BLDC's are not called "ESC's" outside of the RC hobbyist community.

Hand versus machine winding is irrelevant to anyone outside of the RC hobbyist community.

Unsubstantiated tribal knowledge coming from the RC hobbyist community regarding preferred methods of, or comparing methods of, construction or operating BLDC's is not appropriate in the sections of the article meant to be generally describing or comparing BLDC's.

Its a generalization, and one from the RC hobbyist point of view, that a controller ("ESC") would be a disadvantage of a BLDC. It can certainly be an advantage in other applications of BLDCs, such as power control and monitoring, speed and position feedback, and other parameters available when a controller is used on a BLDC, versus a brushed motor without a controller.

Any information in the article coming from RC hobbyist tribal or anecdotal knowledge should be moved into an appropriate section for RC hobbyists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.167.41.198 (talk) 04:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

This Diagram Should Be in This Article
Brushed Motors Compared to Brushless Motors — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchir Kavi (talk • contribs) 00:46, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

RC hobby scene
What means RC ? --CUSENZA Mario (talk) 17:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Remote control, or Radio-controlled model FengRail (talk) 18:08, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

It's radio controlled. Check out the hundreds of "foamies" on YouTube.220.244.86.146 (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Article doesn't adequately explain how BLDCs work
And how they differ from brushed motors. The section on brushed vs brushless emphasizes the pros/cons -- doesn't explain in common language differences in principles of operation. A non-technical reader could read paragraph after paragraph, and still not understand.

The lead paragraphs should explain the essentials to an average reader. See this article on BLDC motors in HowThingsWork.com for a better example of wording and graphics: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/brushless-motor.htm However even that article could stand improvement. E.g, the title is on BLDC motors, yet the animated graphic is for brushed motors. The Wikipedia article needs a simple, non-animated graphic showing brushed vs brushless motors and approachable text which explains the differences. Joema (talk) 12:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Nothing's improved as at 2015. A BLDC is really an AC motor, or at least it's more AC than DC. The Tesla car motor can be considered as entirely AC. The AC is generated by the solid state switching. Permanent magnets are only appropriate for smaller motors.220.244.86.146 (talk) 23:50, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Is it a synchronous motor or a BLDC?
Why are *AC* syncronous motors classified under BL*DC*? Glueball 17:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You've actually asked a very-pertinent question and I've been gearing-up to start a similar discussion. It turns out that there's a huge revolution under way in the design of fractional to low-horsepower AC motors. The induction motor as we know it is rapidly becoming passé for many of its classical applications including home appliances and HVAC. Instead, extremely sophisticated motors which we might call BLDCs are taking over. Only BLDC isn't the best term because they run on single- or polyphase AC input power. These motors typically contain a number of subsystems:


 * A power-factor-correcting rectifier stage
 * Bulk power storage in capacitors
 * A motion engine that uses digital signal processing to track the rotation of the rotor, often using back EMF rather than any discrete sensors. It then synthesizes the required drive waveforms.
 * A power-stage using IGBTs or FREDFETs that inverts the bulk-DC into three-phase AC
 * An internal- or external-permanent magnet rotor


 * These motors are used because they provide several advantages over the classical induction motor that they replace:


 * Lowered power consumption
 * Simple variable-speed operation (which reduces the power consumption farther)
 * Often, the possibility of direct-drive (rather than using belts or gears.


 * In the near future, we're going to have to decide on a wholly-new taxonomy for classifying all these new motors.


 * Atlant 13:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This would be a very good idea (ie, new taxonomy), because the classification of brushless motors as synchronous, stepper, reluctance, etc -  although correct, is missing the point with respect to practical brushless DC motors. It is true that  induction motors are brushless ( I mean, try to find the brush -- or look at the definition of induction). But in practical engineering a brushless DC motor is one that has the same characterictics as a DC shunt wound motor ( ie  nearly linear rpm to voltage -- linear torque to current),  all done without brushes AND driven by a DC supply, even a battery.


 * The two basic types of brushless DC motors are electronically generated sinusodial armature drive and square wave armature drive ( and in this case the  armature is stationary, ie in the frame and ONLY the average current is sinusodial (ie the coil inductance integrates the voltage pulses), the acutal instantaneous voltage is in the form of pulses). Since the power supply is DC transistor switching  is necessary( ie an inverter and at high power ( ie amplifier) using PWM - pulse width modulation) to generate the waveforms. You could effective argue that these are continous stepper motors ( ie one multi-revolution step). This might help some, but confuse others.


 * Electric motors are a fascinating and wonderful mix of the physics of electromagnetics and mechanics. Sensorless PMDC motors are even more fascinating ( ie rotor position is sensed my BEMF as opposed to a powered Hall effect or optical sensing device). The electronic commutation/switching/sequencing is done by a microprocessor/DSP and an attendant program.


 * Where do we go from here?  Electron pond 22:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I totally agree about making a new taxonomy for the motors Alant brought up. There is a world of difference between the subfractional motor that powers a hard drive and the 2HP motor found in a furnace air handler. The latter has a couple other notable features beyond what Alant's list, including programmable runtime functions, lowered noise creation and heat generation, the ability to maintain torque or RPM despite restrictions (to a point), and the new ones even have full-on serial communication abilities.


 * Here's my suggestion — in the HVACR industry, there are a couple million of these installed, usually called ECM (short for electronically-commutated motor). ECM seems like a good name to me since most people who hear it specifically envision the exact motor you folks are discussing here, multiple motor manufacturers call their version of this motor an ECM, and third-party researchers refer to the motors as ECM.
 * I have also heard researchers call these motors BLDC, "Permanent Magnet (PM)", or some combination of the two. To me, that doesn't seem like a very clear difference.
 * Sometimes are called "variable-speed (VS)" since they are usually used in VS applications, but this gets confusing too because you can make an induction motor run at variable speeds and you can also run a BLDC at only one speed. Jeremy RBC 19:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, classifying taxonomy is a good idea, but watch out for the hair. The 5-gram motor+controller on the RC plane image is pretty much the same as the 100-pound permanent-magnet brushless motors that would be used in a full size vehicle, except cars would use sensors instead of back-EMF... That controller is capable of measuring and governing speed, torque, efficiency... Kipperoo 06:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Could we make this article a little more wp:obvious? Is a "brushless DC electric motor" is composed of a variable-frequency drive or a electronic speed control, and a 3 phase "brushless AC electric motor" -- the VFD/ESC converts DC power into 3 phase AC power, and then the AC motor converts the AC power into mechanical power? Is electronically commutated motor a synonym for brushless DC electric motor? --68.0.124.33 (talk) 13:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I think "Brushless DC motor" is a misnomer. It's actually an AC motor driven through an inverter. However, the term is so widely used that I think we have to go along with it. Biscuittin (talk) 11:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

One way to think of it: the electronic inverter and the motor are part of the same system, the motor is useless without the inverter,  in smaller motors, the inverter is often built into the motor housing. Larger systems they are separate to dissipate heat better. The inverter accepts DC. Even when a unit accepts AC, the AC is rectified to provide high voltage DC to an inverter. So it is fair to say that the system as a whole runs on DC. (Entropy7 (talk) 21:50, 18 January 2016 (UTC))

Aeromodeling and Radio-controlled cars
Probably most contributor to the sections comes from modeling but I think this 2 sections does not really fit in the article. Maybe it would be better to merge or remove them? Also in the section about radio-controlled cars it states "...50,000 RPM and 5HP...", that makes no sense. 5HP/Kg? 5HP maximum?

193.205.215.99 (talk) 15:14, 14 June 2016 (UTC) FedeDevi


 * Why remove them? They are (certainly for aeromodelling, which includes quadcopter drones) a major and growing application area for BLDC motors. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:22, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Linearity of torque-to-speed
As a BLDC motor and controller engineer, I would like to see some citations for the claim of a linear torque-to-speed ratio. The stall torque of electric motors is FAR lower than the motor's peak output torque, making the torque-to-speed chart more like a bell curve. This is why motors are usually on a gearbox - to get the peak torque performance at the average desired speed. If torque was linear, we'd want all of our motors to run at nearly 0 RPM, right? The picture and explanation of linearity needs to go.74.78.213.250 (talk) 17:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Page 46 of Speed Torque Characteristics of BLDC shows roughly linear decrease of torque with speed. But as mentioned elsewhere, so much depends on the programming of the controller. Graphs in Investigating the Complex Characteristics of an Hybrid Electric Vehicle Motor show a very non-linear S-T relation, but with the almost inevitable peak torque at low rpm. We would not want motors to run near 0 rpm, because we want power - the product of speed and torque - not just torque. Ordinary brushed DC motors definitely do have a linear decrease of torque with speed and are normally operated somewhere between max efficiency (high speed, low torque) and max power (mid speed, mid torque).Merlin3189 (talk) 06:31, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

What about resolving this issue? One says that at 0 rpm the torque goes to 0, the other says that it's maximum. Who is right? And why? Intuitively I would say that torque is independent from speed at low rpms and at a certain cutoff speed starts to decrease. At constant current that is, at constant heating of the windings. The explanation that "this is why motors are usually on a gearbox" is obviously wrong, at 0 rpm the power is 0 unless torque is infinite and the article says that torque is max not infinite at 0 rpm. A gearbox is a torque transformer, it turns rpms into Nm for a given power, it matches the motor torque to the load torque for a given power. The advertising web page of an outrunner motor by a reputable industrial manufacturer confirms what said, check out the torque curve: http://www.topbandmotor.com/en/chi/products_info.aspx?pid=153&comid=113. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omblauman (talk • contribs) 13:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Brushless DC electric motor don't exist !! there is always a electronic module to convert DC to AC for Brushless engines .. I think you have to change the Electric motor article ! and make a link to an article whitch explaim how the electronic module witch convert DC to AC .. ? --Xulin 16:40, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * The commutator in a brushed DC motor also converts the current to AC, but it's still called a DC motor, bacuse it operates on DC current.
 * --GalFisk 09:47, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I will address this. Kipperoo 03:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

A "Brush" implies, or rather denotes a method of commutation involving intermittent electrical contact through touching, moving parts which necessarily introduce friction, and conductive waste. The existence of an electronic component (almost a computer really) to 'control' a brushless motor, does not in my opinion exclude such a motor from the class that might be called 'brushless'. Perhapse the original comment was made with the intent to dispute the idea that a DC motor has yet been created without the use of a "commutator", which is really a name for the "electronic module to convert DC to AC" which was mentioned in the first comment.

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Suggest merge
Brushless electric motor has one substantial paragraph that probably could have its non-redundant content moved here. --Wtshymanski (talk) 23:54, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

BLDC motor technically misnomer unless multiple windings.
A so called "brushless DC motor" in many examples is an AC motor as it has only one winding so must be fed AC. See Line One of article.

The few True BLDC motors do have more than one winding, DC is switched electronically thru the windings thus causing phase shift and rotating magnetic field. DFS, 08/29/2018. 144.90.223.150 (talk) 17:57, 29 August 2018 (UTC)