Talk:Bryan Fogel

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Coatracks
The article contains much information about the subject's films including an awards box and several reviews. This would normally be fine in BLP's, however, in this case there are already articles for each of these films, and there are already hatnotes within the article for each of those films. Including all of this extra information seems overtly WP:PROMO and WP:COATRACKish. I propose that this information be limited and would like local editors feedback. Thanks! Spintendo 04:42, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The lengthy descriptions of the subject's films and promotional reviews along with award tables for each film omitted. All of this information is already included in the individual Wikipedia articles about those films (hatnotes already present are, of course, retained). Most of this promotional material had been added over time by a single editor who has almost no other edits to any other articles. Spintendo  16:47, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposed table format for accolades
The following accolades information pertaining to the living person in this article associated with the films and references has been reformatted and consolidated from prior awards / nominations tables within sub-sections of each film. @Spintendo would you kindly review the proposed modifications in an attempt to improve the article structure based on the prior formatting and placement of information that had been published. Based on my research of other articles similar to this subject matter, this is more inline with many other filmmaker accolades. Many thanks for your consideration. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 03:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Jeremycohen333 (talk) 03:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jeremycohen333 The formatting of the table looks perfect. The only issue I have is that none of the awards or the award bestowers are WikiLinked. If you could format the table to include all the Wikilinks, that would be helpful. Any award which is not independently notable should be omitted, per WP:BLPAWARDS. ('Independently notable' means the award itself---not just the award bestower-- has its own Wikipedia page.) As far as references, if the award has an official website, then that would be the best one to use as the reference for the award being given (e.g. oscars.org as the reference for AMPAS's Academy award, etc). If no official site, then a news outlet can be listed as the reference (though most notable awards should have their own websites). Spintendo  05:15, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello @Spintendo. Many thanks for your feedback on the table configuration, it's very much appreciated and I really do like how it shaped up. Please refer to the latest comments for this Accolades table update based on all your recommendations. I agree that linking each award reference to the official site where available to view all nominees provides more value to the viewer. Please see comment re: two Award bestowers listed (where WikiLinks were not available). I've proposed a solution to link those to sites where all nominees are listed. This is the only area in question, otherwise I do hope I've followed your recommendations correctly. Looking forward to your review thanks again for all your insight and guidance. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 18:31, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jeremycohen333 Thank you for the changes you've made it's much appreciated. However, many Wikilinks are still missing. For example, the following entries for the Directors Guild award should be Wikilinked like this:
 * Directors Guild of America - award bestower
 * Outstanding Directing – Documentary - award itself
 * The wiki link for Oscar for Best Documentary is also missing a link to the award itself.
 * Best Documentary Feature Film
 * The BAFTA award is also missing its Wikilink:
 * Best Documentary
 * In fact it appears that all of the awards are missing their WL's. Each and every entry should have double links- one for the bestower and one for the award. If a link cannot be made for the award itself then a link to the section of the bestower's article where the bestower mentions the award can be substituted in its place. If the article on the bestower does not mention the award then the award and the bestower should both be omitted from the list (meaning the entire mentioning of the award itself and its being either nominated or won should be avoided). In that way, by listing only awards which are independently notable, we help to ensure that the article is written from a neutral point of view, which is a Wikipedia policy requirement. Spintendo  04:04, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Spintendo, Thank you tremendously once again for your review and recommendations for the accolades table. I've included Wikilinks to all award article pages as well as the actual awards, these have been Wikilinked to their own articles or within the award bestowers article section itself. Please advise if formatting is acceptable so as to proceed to publish to this article. Many thanks for all your help to refine this information. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 19:55, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅  Spintendo  03:32, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposed background and timeline on Fogel's involvement in events and development for Icarus film
Hello Wikipedians, I’m proposing additional detailed information and citations that have been researched and prepared to add to the section "Icarus" on behalf of the subject Bryan Fogel and events surrounding his direct actions and involvement in the events documented in the making of this film.

Your review and approval of this topic is appreciated. When you have finished reviewing the proposed changes, please indicate if this update may be directly edited to the article section.


 * Specific text to be added or removed: See below Wiki formatted text including WikiLinks when available and citations for all topics discussed.
 * Reason for the change: Presently, this section does not include a biography of events in direct relation to Fogel's work on the film Icarus with limited information that includes film reviews and features discussing Fogel, mention of awards received and film distribution details. I'm proposing updating Fogel's biography to include events pertaining to his career that Fogel was personally was involved in and inspired him to develop this film, as well as the timeline of actions by Fogel described in this section that are accurately well constructed and cited.
 * References supporting change: All reliable sourced references updates included below in proposed information.

Icarus
In the years between 2012-2014, Fogel found himself in a career depression struggling financially and questioning whether he should continue in the entertainment business. At The Oslo Freedom Forum in 2019, Fogel stated: “And here I was, I was almost 40 years old and I was, in what I call, director’s jail, and I didn't know what I was gonna do with my life, and I didn't know how I was gonna pick up those pieces.”

A life long cyclist, Fogel had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall and was fascinated that while Lance had ultimately confessed to doping throughout his career, that he hadn’t actually been caught or had ever failed a doping test despite avoiding detection from 500 plus tests. When it was learned that Armstrong had in fact been using performance enhancing drugs, Fogel became fascinated with how Lance had been able to carry on without ever testing positive or being caught for doping.

What struck Fogel was that clearly the anti-doping system in sport was failing to catch cheaters. Fogel wanted to document this on camera and prove his thesis firsthand stating, “the idea I had was to prove the system in place to test athletes was bullshit.”

This premise would develop into what would become Icarus, Fogel’s first documentary feature.

Filming for Icarus began in May, 2014 and shortly after, Fogel connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, who at the time was the director of Moscow’s WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) laboratory. Rodchenkov who had been the director of the laboratory since 2005 agreed to help Fogel personally “dope” and take performance enhancing drugs in order to test and evade positive detection for an amateur bicycling race in Europe, the Haute Route.

During 2015, Fogel and Rodchenkov worked closely to document this scheme, during which time Rodchenkov was under investigation by WADA for allegedly doping Russian track and field athletes.

On November 10, 2015, WADA made public the findings of its year long investigation and released a report and recommendations for punishment.

The report confirmed allegations against Rodchenkov, where Rodchenkov then resigned from his duties as laboratory director and Russia was suspended from all world and track events.

Rodchenkov turned to Fogel to help him to escape Russia believing that if he were to stay, that he would be murdered by the FSB. Fogel then hastily arranged air tickets for Rodchenkov to come to Los Angeles in November 2015.

Rodchenkov’s escape was successful and over the next several months he would reveal the full extent of Russia’ state sponsored doping program to Fogel.

Rodchenkov, under a Department of Justice subpoena to appear in front of the grand jury, went to the The New York Times with Fogel in May 2016, and through three days of interviews with reporter Rebecca Ruiz and Michael Schwirtz they disclosed evidence that would be the backbone of the front page The New York Times story on May 12, 2016.

Fogel and Rodchenkov alleged Russia had orchestrated state-sponsored fraud, conspiring to cheat the Olympics for decades, including the 2014 Sochi Olympics, where Rodchenkov, with the help of the Federal Security Service (FSB, formerly the KGB), changed steroid-tainted urine of the Russian national team to evade positive detection.

Within a week of the New York Times story, WADA appointed Prof. Richard McLaren to investigate Dr. Rodchenkov’s allegations.

As a result of McLaren’s report, Russia was suspended from participating in the 2018 Winter Olympics in South Korea under its flag, although it did send 169 athletes under the moniker "Olympic Athletes from Russia."

In August 2017, Fogel met with members of the US Congress and Senate to discuss the extent of Russian tampering in global affairs, specifically the 2016 US elections.

This story, which became the foundation of his feature documentary film Icarus would lead to Russia’s ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022.

Icarus premiered at the 2017 Sundance Film Festival where it won the first ever Special Jury "Orwell Award" and the first ever Audience Choice Award at Sundance Film Festival London. The film was acquired in a historic $5 million sale to Netflix and released worldwide on Netflix on August 4, 2017.

Icarus garnered critical acclaim from both film critics and editorial publications around the globe. The New York Times described Fogel’s film Icarus as “Illuminating” and Variety magazine called it “A Game Changing Documentary.”

Icarus would go on to win the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature at the 90th Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 2018. The film was also nominated for the Best Documentary Feature at the 71st BAFTAs, and Fogel was also nominated for outstanding directorial achievement at the 70th Directors Guild of America Awards and three 2018 Primetime Emmy Awards for writing, directing and best documentary special. Icarus also received the 2018 Edward R. Murrow Award for Outstanding Journalism, and won SummerDocs Audience Award at the 2017 Hamptons International Film Festival. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 19:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Reply 18-JUN-2023
Spintendo 05:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) The information requested to be added is more germane to the article on the Icarus film, rather than the director himself. Including it here seems overtly promotional in nature. The subject for this article is the director himself, rather than his films, which have their own articles.
 * 2) The other information requested to be added appears to be related to his films, including promotional statements made by reviewers of the film, which serve no purpose for an article which is about the director himself.
 * 3) Other additional information from the edit request is either already within the article or falls under the response given above under number 1.


 * Ok understood and appreciated. I've started a new topic at the bottom of the page per your request to further address proposed additions to this section. Many thanks for your review and guidance on this topic!
 * Jeremycohen333 (talk) 23:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Is it appropriate to request that we close this particular Topic discussion as I've started a new Topic section for "Icarus" additional information? Thank you. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 00:55, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

BAFTA award for Icarus
Was this award and/or nomination given in 2017 or 2018? The BAFTA website states 2018, but the Wikipedia article for the award states 2017. Please advise so it can be correctly placed in the awards table. Spintendo 02:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Spintendo, the 71st BAFTA Awards where given in 2018 for the 2017 film. On the awards table it is currently showing in 2018 when the award was received.
 * Also noticed that the Oscar win at the 90th Academy Awards is listed under 2017. The award was received in 2018, so would like to request to move this to 2018 so that appears correct as well. Thank you. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 02:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jeremycohen333 These can be changed no problem. I just want to confirm that the Academy & Bafta Awards were presented in 2018 but were for films shown theatrically in 2017 is that correct? That would be the source of my confusion on this. (That time shift is not accounted for on the individual notable award page's dating; the article for the Academy award for Best documentary feature, for example, lists Icarus under the year 2017). If the table's dating is based on when the awards were presented, then all of the awards should be rechecked for their presentation dates, as I would assume the film critics award, Sundance and other related award dates would similarly be one year shifted from when the films were released theatrically, which means the 2017 and 2020 dates should be removed completely in favor of only 2018 and 2021 dates. Spintendo  23:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I've replaced the dates for when the awards and/or nominations were received, including an explanatory note describing this, within the table. It appears as if the various critics/reviewers awards were received the year of the film's theatrical exhibition, and all the other awards/noms were received one year afterwards. It wasn't clear from a perusal of the articles page when the Sundance awards were held, so those were kept on the year of the films theatrical exhibition. Spintendo  00:46, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Spintendo Thank you for this modification. The placement of awards is now accurate after clicking through each award in terms of when the it was received. Also the Note added to clarify theatrical release vs award ceremonies as well is very helpful. Much appreciated! Jeremycohen333 (talk) 18:11, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Additional revised content proposed for "Icarus"
Hi Spintendo, thank you again for ensuring updates to this article are within BLP guidelines. After further review, I've re-evaluated the content for Icarus, and proposing consideration of the following additional background info on Fogel to add to this section. Each additional piece of content is supported with notes per citation in the intended order of appearance to add above the current article's subsection contents.

Icarus

 * 1. Specific text to be added preceding the current article content in this section:

A life long cyclist, Fogel had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall and was fascinated that while he ultimately confessed to doping had been able to carry on without ever testing positive or being caught, a journey led to Icarus, an upcoming documentary that began filming in May 2014.


 * Reason for the change: Indicate what personally inspired Fogel to make this Documentary, and note the period of time during his filmmaking career.


 * 2/3. Specific text to be added as next paragraph:

Shortly after, Fogel connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, adopting Rodchenkov's doping regimen to show a weaknesses in global drug tests by becoming a human guinea pig.

In May 2016, Fogel and Rodchenkov went to the The New York Times and through three days of interviews disclosed evidence alleging that Russia had orchestrated state-sponsored fraud, conspiring to cheat the Olympics for decades, including the 2014 Sochi Olympics that would be the backbone of the front page The New York Times story on May 12, 2016.


 * Reason for the change: Fogel's research into the subject of doping for his documentary as a cyclist, lead to a most notable article published in the New York Times Times that discusses a significant event in Fogel's career as a filmmaker worthy of including in biography.


 * 4. Specific text to be added as next paragraph:

In August 2017, Fogel met with members of the US Congress and Senate to discuss the extent of Russian tampering in global affairs, specifically the 2016 US elections.


 * Reason for the change: Another major event in Fogel's career, meeting with US committee as a filmmaker and activist. Includes citation of official published government document.


 * 5/6/7. Specific text to be added as final paragraph preceding the live article contents:

This story, which became the foundation of his feature documentary film Icarus, would lead to Russia’s ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022.


 * Reason for the change: The result of Fogel's activism that impacted decisions made by the Olympics committee.

Thank you again for your time and consideration in reviewing this next draft.

Jeremycohen333 (talk) 23:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC) Jeremycohen333 (talk) 23:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Reply 13-July-2023
I wanted to note that the Financial Times is paywalled, so I'm not able to access any of the information from those sources. I did read the New York Times article. The edit request proposal states "Fogel and Rodchenkov went to the The New York Times and through three days of interviews disclosed evidence alleging that Russia had orchestrated state-sponsored fraud..." (vis-à-vis the doping scandal). Now it's my understanding that while Fogel facilitated Rodchenkov's visit to the Times, it was Rodchenkov who offered evidence about the doping scandal.

Re: the claim about Fogel's Congressional testimony, I would be happy to add it to the article, but it should be mentioned using neutral terms describing whichever topics he discussed (according to the source) rather than describing it as a discussion about Russian "tampering".

Another portion of the edit request requires some context, where it states Fogel "adopted Rodchenkov's doping regimen to show a weaknesses [sic] in global drug tests by becoming a human guinea pig." That statement seems to suggest that Fogel was administered steroids, which I'm not understanding. The New York Times, where that information originates from, does not explain this very well.

I'll leave the request template open; I'd like to hear from other editors their feedback and ideas on this request, please feel free to chime in. Spintendo 05:19, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Spintendo, appreciate your review on proposed content and subsequent articles.
 * See below responses per citation to commentary provided in your reply that has been revised as well in a neutral pov:
 * Citation #1 (FT), the referenced article itself begins with staff writer specifically mentioning Fogel was inspired by Lance Armstrong for the reasons stated in the proposed text as well as noting when Fogel began his quest on the topic of doping and athletes.
 * Citation #2 (FT) content revised as follows to further elaborate on the significance:
 * Shortly after, Fogel connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, adopting Rodchenkov's doping regimen to show a weaknesses in global drug tests by becoming a human guinea pig while doping himself and proving he could pass with results indicating that he had not been taking steroids.
 * Citation #3 (The New York Times), as the NY Times article stated, Fogel in fact, alongside Rodchenkov, presented the Fogel's own investigations and research on this topic and the data provided by Rodchenkov was presented to the NYT staff writers. Fogel was involved in every step of these meetings that is also apparent in the documentary itself.
 * Citation #4 ("Russian Interference in 2016 U.S. Elections" PDF) can be replaced with the following Vulture and NYT articles. The content should be revised to provide more context:
 * In August 2017, Fogel met with various chiefs of staff members in US Congress and Senate to discuss evidence of doping among athletes during the 2014 Sochi Olympics. https://www.vulture.com/2017/12/icarus-bryan-fogel-russia-doping-scandal-olympics-netflix.html
 * This is uncovered in Fogel's film in a bipartisan way as the House subcommittee investigation and oversight held a hearing on anti-doping and the whole Russian state-sponsored system. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/28/sports/antidoping-officials-get-an-earful-from-congress-what-a-broken-system.html?_r=0 Jeremycohen333 (talk) 19:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your reply.
 * Concerning the requested text stating that the subject and Rodchenkov presented evidence to the New York Times, the article states "Dr. Rodchenkov laid out the details of the operation over three days of interviews that were arranged by an American filmmaker, Bryan Fogel, who is working on a documentary that involves Dr. Rodchenkov." The Times article mentions Fogel's name only five times, while it mentions Rodchenkov's name 51 times. From that, I think it's clear where the bulk of the information came from.
 * With regards to the claim regarding Lance Armstrong and the inspiration of the Icarus film, I think that's innocuous enough to be added to the article.
 * With regards to the visits to Capitol Hill lawmakers, I think that is also innocuous enough to be added to the article in a brief sentence or two, with the caveat being that if the sources state this is what the subject said he told the lawmakers, then it should also specify that in the article's mention of it.
 * With regards to the claim of Fogel being a "guinea pig", I doubt this type of unconventional "testing-of-the-testers" would pass the requirements of WP:NOR.
 * Regards  Spintendo  01:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I hope you don't mind, I set the answered flag to yes since you're working this one. Cheers. Xan747 (talk) 18:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Spintendo, I've performed further research for articles and suggesting the following revised content to address your commentary above, and removed some topics in earlier proposal as I could not locate more specific info of what was discussed in Congress that referenced Fogel directly. Please review the citations generated at the bottom of this reply only as it appears they are not previewing accordingly next to each paragraph in this reply thread. Many thanks and looking forward to your feedback / approval hoping all of the below is acceptable.
 * Citation #1  Your comment: "With regards to the claim regarding Lance Armstrong and the inspiration of the Icarus film, I think that's innocuous enough to be added to the article."
 * Proposing the following be added as the 1st paragraph:
 * A life long cyclist, Fogel had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall and was fascinated that while he ultimately confessed to doping had been able to carry on without ever testing positive or being caught, a journey led to Icarus, an upcoming documentary that began filming in May 2014.
 * Citation #2  Your comment: "With regards to the claim of Fogel being a "guinea pig", I doubt this type of unconventional "testing-of-the-testers" would pass the requirements of WP:NOR."
 * Provided more context as to this topic, noting Fogel's history as an amateur cyclist during the time of his documentary, and while taking performance enhancing drugs, he entered the same race the following year, this is all covered in the article referenced.
 * Proposing the following be added as the 2nd paragraph:
 * In August 2014, Fogel competed in the Haute Route, an amateur cycling race in the French Alps with no drugs in his system and placed 14th out of 440 cyclists. Fogel planned to race the following year and contacted various international experts and eventually connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov. Under Rodchenkov’s direction, Fogel obtained testosterone, human growth hormone (HGH), erythropoietin (EPO) and other drugs, adopting a doping regimen to prove a weakness in global drug tests by entering the Haute Route in August 2015.
 * Citation #3 and #4  Additional background; Fogel's realization while documenting his doping journey in preparation for his next race, and the events that transpired during this time.
 * Proposing the following be added as the 3rd and 4th paragraphs:
 * While filming his documentary Icarus in Moscow, Fogel quickly realized that Rodchenkov was not just a guy in a Russian laboratory but the architect of Russia's state-run doping program. This led Fogel to realize that his footage was evidence of a criminal operation and an institutional conspiracy that would endanger Rodchenkov.
 * This is when Bryan's documentary took an unexpected turn and he had to fly Rodchenkov to Los Angeles for safety.
 * Citation #5  Your comment: "The Times article mentions Fogel's name only five times, while it mentions Rodchenkov's name 51 times. From that, I think it's clear where the bulk of the information came from."
 * This content has been revised to imply that after flying Rodchenkov to protect him, Fogel worked with Rodchenkov to prepare evidence and facilitated a meeting for Rodchenkov with NYT, and the article covers these topics.
 * Proposing the following be added as the 5th paragraph:
 * Fogel assisted Rodchenkov in preparing evidence and set-up an interview for Rodchenkov at The New York Times. This led to exposing Russia's doping scandal at the 2014 Sochi Olympics. The story was published on the front page of the New York Times on May 12, 2016.
 * Citation #6,7,8  The result of Fogel's activism that impacted decisions made by the Olympics committee.
 * Proposing the following be added as the 6th paragraph:
 * These events became the foundation of Fogel’s feature documentary film Icarus and would lead to Russia’s ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022.
 * Additional Citation to current Wiki final paragraph: 
 * Proposing the following be added to the end of Sundance "The Orwell Award"
 * Icarus premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, where it won U.S. Documentary Special Jury Award "The Orwell Award"
 * Thank you for your review to address your notes and provide further context to topics in Fogel's proposed bio. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 00:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Reply 14-AUG-2023
Below you will see where proposals from your request have been quoted with reviewer decisions and feedback inserted underneath, either accepting, declining or otherwise commenting upon your proposal(s). Please read the enclosed notes within the proposal review section below for information on each request. Spintendo 02:58, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Reply 13-SEP-2023
Hi Spintendo,

Please see revised information per your prior comments in the edit request review above.

I propose the first sentence be modified as follows to be accurate, since Fogel stated he was following Lance's career and not interested in making a documentary about him at that time:


 * Fogel, as a life long cyclist, had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall, in particular, his ability to evade doping detection, a journey that led to Icarus, an upcoming documentary that began filming in May 2014. 

The following addresses "note 2" and the citation supports this entire paragraph, adding the results of the 2nd race as mentioned in article. This paragraph I'd propose to be added after the first sentence "Fogel, as a life long cyclist..."


 * In August 2014, Fogel competed in the Haute Route, an amateur cycling race in the French Alps with no drugs in his system and placed 14th out of 440 cyclists. Fogel planned to race the following year and contacted various international experts and eventually connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov. Under Rodchenkov’s direction, Fogel obtained testosterone, human growth hormone (HGH), erythropoietin (EPO) and other drugs, adopting a doping regimen to prove a weakness in global drug tests. After months of doping, Fogel’s measured power was 20 percent higher than the year before as he headed into his second Haute Route race in August 2015. Fogel didn’t win, his bicycle had mechanical problems and he placed 27th. 

The next paragraph following the above has been updated per your comment in "note 3" that is reworded and supports the additional statements for context of events based at the time of filming the documentary:


 * According to Fogel, while filming his documentary Icarus in Moscow, an understanding came to be reached about Rodchenkov, that he was not just a guy in a Russian laboratory but the architect of Russia's state-run doping program for its Olympic athletes. During the filming of Fogel's documentary, Rodchencov stated he had worked with the FSB to switch dirty urine samples for clean urine collected months earlier. Fogel’s footage would later become evidence of a criminal operation and an institutional conspiracy that would endanger Rodchenkov, after two of Rodchenkov’s associates died under suspicious circumstances and Rodchenkov was declared as an enemy of the state in the press in Russia. 

Thank you for your reply to these modifications, with the intent of addressing your suggestions.Jeremycohen333 (talk) 23:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have altered the first sentence to follow more closely your interpretation. The second paragraph's source, fraud magazine (a publication of Association of the Certified Fraud Examiners) is not a reliable secondary source. The third paragraph, while including some of my suggested text, largely recreates the paragraph which I initially declined to add. Spintendo  22:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Reply 27-SEP-2023
Hi Spintendo,

I've revised the second paragraph proposal and citation regarding the note for an unreliable source "Fraud Magazine". This has been updated with a "Financial Times" article that covers the same topic and specifics of both races. In 2014, Fogel was clean and the following year had been doping under Rodchekov's protocol to evade detection, adding context on Rodchenkov. Therefore, I'm proposing revisions to the first paragraph in the live article to be edited as follows:


 * Fogel, as a life long cyclist, had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall, in particular, his ability to evade doping detection. In August 2014, Fogel competed in the Haute Route, a prestigious amateur cycling multiday race in the French Alps with no drugs in his system, placing 14th out of 440 competitors.'''


 * Planning to race the following year, Fogel contacted various international experts and eventually connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, who at the time was the director of Moscow’s WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) laboratory. Under Rodchenkov’s direction, Fogel adopted a doping regimen similar to Armstrong's to prove a weakness in global drug tests. After months of doping, Fogel’s measured power was 20 percent higher than the year before as he headed into his second Haute Route race in August 2015. Fogel didn’t win, his bicycle had mechanical problems and he placed 27th out of 600 cyclists. '''


 * Fogel eventually helped prepare evidence with Rodchenkov, setting-up an interview at The New York Times. The Times story, published in 2016, presaged Russia's ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022.

Thank you for your review on the revised additions. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 07:14, 28 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for (belatedly) adding your signature, it's most apprectiated. With regards to the FT source, it is behind a paywall, and I cannot access it. If you wish it to be used as a source for information in your proposed text, please activate the quote parameter and include the verbatim text from the FT source which confirms the information you wish to add. Regards, Spintendo  21:37, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Reply 30-SEP-2023
Hi Spintendo,

Please see proposed text followed by verbatim copy from FT article citation to support the edit requests:

Fogel, as a life long cyclist, had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall, in particular, his ability to evade doping detection.

In August 2014, Fogel competed in the Haute Route, a prestigious amateur cycling multiday race in the French Alps with no drugs in his system, placing 14th out of 440 competitors.

Planning to race the following year, Fogel contacted various international experts and eventually connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, who at the time was the director of Moscow’s WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) laboratory. Under Rodchenkov’s direction, Fogel adopted a doping regimen similar to Armstrong's to prove a weakness in global drug tests. After months of doping, Fogel’s measured power was higher than the year before as he headed into his second Haute Route race in August 2015. Fogel didn’t win, his bicycle had mechanical problems and he placed 27th out of 600 cyclists.

Then as mentioned in this topic, to slightly revise the live edit you provided with the following:

Fogel eventually helped prepare evidence with Rodchenkov, setting-up an interview at The New York Times. The Times story, published in 2016, presaged Russia's ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022.

Thanks! Jeremycohen333 (talk) 21:55, 30 September 2023 (UTC)


 * You've used a shortened ref name in your proposed text . This name is not linked to anything on the talk page. Shortened ref names must be linked to their longer versions or else they will generate cite errors. Please correct this by providing the long version of the ref name in your reply message below this post. Also, please confirm my reading of what your request for the revised text should look like: Fogel, as a life long cyclist, had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall, in particular, his ability to evade doping detection. Fogel eventually helped prepare evidence with Rodchenkov, setting-up an interview at The New York Times. The Times story, published in 2016, presaged Russia's ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022. The text above is acceptable to be placed into the article (although if this is the first mentioning of Rodhenkov's name in the text above, that might be problematic; If I'm not mistaken, I don't think his name is mentioned prior to this.) The only remaining problem I would have is mentioning any additional information about the Haute Route race (If you're still requesting to add that). Any text describing Fogel as "wanting to enter the race in order to see if he could evade drug detection" would be identical to the real-life narrative as depicted in Fogels documentary. My problem is that we would just be repeating the narrative of the documentary here in the article if we added any additional information about the Haute route race. So I'm inclined only to add the revised text shown in green font above if you agree. Please advise.


 * Regards, Spintendo  21:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Spintendo, thank you for your feedback on the proposed additions.
 * In regards to the missing citation information, let's omit that one, as I realize that the 2nd citation after the NYT mention is a duplicate to an existing reference on the first section in Career pertaining to The Guardian. Thus, creating that error on the Talk page.
 * In response to the information about the 2 Haute Route races (adding Rodchenkov's doping regimen in the 2nd race) to help Fogel enter the race while doping to evade detection, this detail of information related to Fogel is a major focal point that happened to be documented in the Icarus film. I propose that this is worth including as a personal aspect of his career.
 * Regarding the 2nd race, an earlier suggestion you recommended in this topic, you mentioned it should indicate the results of the race (while doping), as it did not cover the results and that omission of information was considered as a teaser. So adding the results of both races with/without doping I'm proposing we include in the edit.
 * The text in green you've recommended, would then skip over this aspect of the purpose of Fogel seeking assistance in a doping regimen, which lead to the realization of the significance of Rodchenkov and his position in WADA (anti-doping) in the Olympics, while lead to Fogel helping prepare evidence for the NYT.
 * In reviewing Icarus (2017 film) Wiki article, this additional information proposed adds context to Fogel's journey in cycling and is not mentioned, therefore I would like to propose this info be included on Fogel's article within the Icarus section. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 19:32, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. You've stated about the Haute route race this detail of information related to Fogel is a major focal point that happened to be documented in the Icarus film. I propose that this is worth including as a personal aspect of his career. which leads me to question which career, as a bicyclist or as a film maker? The information concerning the race appears to straddle both, so to speak. The question is how much of it to include here. If much of this narrative is presented in the documentary, then I would argue it should be presented there, in the article on the film. Film articles, in practice, have much greater leeway towards presenting expanded (some might argue bloated) plot sections describing every aspect of their presentations. If it's a fact from the subject's life that was documented in the film, then that's where it should be placed, in the article on the film. Regards, Spintendo  22:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe that this discussion may benefit from the WP:3O process in order to catch anything that I may have missed as well as to ensure that the COI editor is getting a fair hearing of their requests. It's my intention to list this discussion there; once I've begun the process I will notify the COI editor so that they may join the discussion. Regards, Spintendo  04:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the recommendations, I’m open to discussing with another editor to work towards structuring the information that best conveys the subject matter. Please do let me know the next steps on how to proceed, much appreciated as always. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 00:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Spintendo, would like to follow up on prior reply in regards to addressing the proposals with another editors feedback, when you’re available to initiate this. Your guidance on the proper procedure here is appreciated. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 22:45, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I apologize for the delay in getting this started, I've been quite busy, but I haven't forgotten. I think we're ready to begin the 3O process. The discussion will take place here, on this talk page, and will be listed on the 3O page in order to garner attention from monitoring editors. Because there are a few other threads here on the talk page (just below this conversation) I'm going to open the 30 at the very bottom of the talk page. I may even temporarily collapse the other conversations so they don't get in the way. Editors who come to the page will want to look at a history of our conversations, and it's much easier if the 30 discussion is just-adjacent to those other discussions. There also needs to be a short summary of what the main issue is. This is shown below. If you disagree with anything from my summary, please feel free to write in your own words, what you feel the issue is, which we can include with the summary before I officially move it to the 30 section at the bottom of this talk page.

Please advise on any feedback and we'll go from there. Thanks! Regards, Spintendo  09:00, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, if you could provide the verbatim text from the Financial Times where it says Rodchenkov gave Fogel these performance drugs, that would be helpful. This is all I could find: The following year, after undergoing a doping regime similar to Armstrong's, he raced again. Mechanical failures meant that he finished 27th out of more than 600 riders, but his body was transformed...Fogel did not just want to dope. He wanted, like Armstrong, to see if he could evade the drug testers. To do this, he needed a guide; an expert who could prescribe a winning formula and design a regimen to cheat anti-doping controls. That search led him to Grigory Rodchenkov. When they began talking in April 2014, Rodchenkov was the director of Russia's official anti-doping laboratory in Moscow and considered one of the world's leading experts on performance-enhancing drugs but as you can see, it stops short of saying that rodchenkov is the one who gave him these drugs, It just says he needed an expert and his search took him to rodchenkov. The quoted passage ends there. The beginning states The following year, after undergoing a doping regime similar to Armstrong's, he raced again. Mechanical failures meant that he finished 27th out of more than 600 riders, but his body was transformed But once again we're missing the text that actually says Rodchenkov is the one who either prepared the medication or gave it to him. maybe I'm just not seeing it. if you could help point out the text that would be helpful. thank you. Spintendo  16:48, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I've located the text. Spintendo  23:09, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Spintendo, many thanks for the comprehensive summary on the background for subject of article and the proposed content in question whether it's appropriate for subject's wiki article and/or the wiki article of the documentary. I agree with all that has been stated to submit for the 3O process. Also I see you've located the FT quotes to support the proposed content per the citation provided. I really appreciate your guidance steps here so I can hopefully get as much of the proposed content published. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 18:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the message on my talk page, sorry for the delay. I had spoken with another editor about this, and their suggestion was that my summary of the issues did not fully flesh out what the particular needs were in this case. While it stated what is generally wanted to be placed into the article (additional information along the lines of that found in the Icarus film) it would be much better and succinct if each particular claim that was requested to be added should be listed in the summary as well (and where, specifically, those claims originate or are substantiated). I agreed that would be an improvement to the summary. Since the summary should be written by one person, if you could briefly go over what the additional claims were that you wanted to include (listing them in bullet format) then I could include this into "our" summary for Robert to review (or whichever editor takes on the 3O - but Robert is our resident 3O expert). You can place that bullet list below. The sentences don't need to be fully verbatim, just the salient points would be fine (I see that the beginning of this thread has many of them listed, but that was back in September, so I just want to confirm which ones are still requested to be added). Thank you, and again, my apologies for the delay. Regards, Spintendo  00:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Reply 19-DEC-2023
Hi Spintendo,

I appreciate your response and actions taken thus far to help summarize. Yes I realize there are various proposal versions, revisions and suggestions exchanged. So in an attempt to help identify the latest proposal, I've combined the prior texts and verbatim sources to support the updates for Icarus and define the pending content submitted for review. I've organized in bullet points as requested in the COI format as well. I hope this makes it easier on your part in review of our prior discussions. See below proposal thank you!

• Please revise the first sentence adding a wikilink to Lance Armstrong in the current live version, and please add a second sentence to the first paragraph.


 * Fogel, a life long cyclist, had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall in particular, his ability to evade doping detection. This journey led to Icarus, a documentary that began filming in May 2014.

• Reason for the change: Wikilink omitted in last edit, and would like to note the period of time when Fogel started working on this documentary in his filmmaking career.

• Please add a new next paragraph preceding the current second and third sentences starting with "Fogel later connected with Russian scientist..."and ending with "...Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022." Then it would be appropriate in terms of the timeline of events to move these two sentences mentioned above as a new paragraph, which can be placed as the second to last paragraph in the Icarus section, preceding the last paragraph starting with "Icarus, a film documenting these investigations..."


 * In August 2014, Fogel competed in the Haute Route, a prestigious amateur cycling multiday race in the French Alps with no drugs in his system, placing 14th out of 440 competitors.

• Using the reference:


 * Verbatim Article

• Reason for the change: Additional background; As mentioned in the documentary, Fogel had entered this race without doping, and providing the results of the race.

• Please add to the paragraph:


 * Planning to race the following year, Fogel contacted various international experts and eventually connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, who at the time was the director of Moscow’s WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) laboratory. Under Rodchenkov’s direction, Fogel adopted a doping regimen similar to Armstrong's to prove a weakness in global drug tests. After months of doping, Fogel’s measured power was higher than the year before as he headed into his second Haute Route race in August 2015. Fogel didn’t win, his bicycle had mechanical problems and he placed 27th out of 600 cyclists.

• Using the same reference as prior sentence reference:


 * Verbatim Article

• Reason for the change: Add more detail re: the expert Fogel hired while documenting his doping journey in preparation for his next race and goal of working with this expert. Mention of effect on Fogel's strength and his results of the 2nd race as discussed in documentary. Fogel's cycling journey and events Fogel captured as a filmmaker.

• Please add a third paragraph:


 * While filming his documentary Icarus in Moscow, Fogel quickly realized that Rodchenkov was not just a guy in a Russian laboratory but the architect of Russia's state-run doping program. This led Fogel to realize that his footage was evidence of a criminal operation and an institutional conspiracy that would endanger Rodchenkov.

This is when Bryan's documentary took an unexpected turn and he had to fly Rodchenkov to Los Angeles for safety.

• Using the reference:


 * Verbatim Article

• Reason for the change: The context of Fogel documenting his journey for Icarus and events that revealed the significance of Rodchenkov the expert Fogel had hired, and Fogel's realization of the implications which were covered in documentary as well as the actions taken to help protect Rodchenkov.

• Please revise the sentence in the first paragraph of the published article section that I've suggested to move to a new paragraph, which separates it from the first paragraph presently.

Change "Fogel later connected with Russian scientist..." to the following.


 * Fogel eventually helped prepare evidence with Rodchenkov, setting-up an interview at The New York Times.

Any clarifications on the above I can provide prior to submitting please do let me know, as my goal here was to highlight the proposal summary in a clear, organized and thoughtful manner to assist your efforts. Best Regards,

Jeremycohen333 (talk) 00:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Reply 26-DEC-2023
In looking over the requested changes, I surmised that the following is what you'd like to be changed. Please review the following and let me know if that is correct.

Regards, Spintendo  01:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Spintendo,
 * Thank you for preparing the summary of proposed additions.
 * In reviewing, actually the left column, I'd prefer to retain all this information from the current live section of the article for Icarus. Here are just a few areas to clarify.
 * • The first paragraph was to be slightly re-written as you've provided on the right column, as we are adding that additional sentence: "This journey led to Icarus, a documentary that began filming in May 2014." That would complete the first paragraph.
 * • On the right column (content to be added), I would like to request we include a sentence at the end of the last paragraph of the proposed text. It would then would read as follows after the end of this sentence: ...an institutional conspiracy that would endanger Rodchenkov. "This is when Bryan's documentary took an unexpected turn and he had to fly Rodchenkov to Los Angeles for safety."
 * • Then on the left column (current wiki article) you've referenced, all this information regarding NY Times and mention of the Olympics is great as well as the next paragraph of reviews, awards and film acquisition details. I've suggested we place this info as the last two paragraphs (after) the additional proposed text in the right column you've indicated. Therefore, the last two paragraph of the Icarus article would read:
 * "Fogel eventually helped prepare evidence with Rodchenkov, setting-up an interview at The New York Times.  The Times story, published in 2016, presaged Russia's ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022.
 * Icarus, a film documenting these investigations, was described by The New York Times as "Illuminating" with Variety magazine calling it "A game changing documentary." Icarus premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, where it won U.S. Documentary Special Jury Award "The Orwell Award" and the first ever "Audience Choice" Award of Sundance Film Festival London. The film was acquired in a $5 million sale by Netflix and launched globally on August 4, 2017. The film won Netflix its first Feature Documentary Oscar."
 * Please let me know if these revisions and additions are described clearly, so we're basically expanding on the current information that's present on the live article section, moving all content as final two paragraphs except for the first sentence about Fogel as cyclist and following Lance Armstrong. Thank you so very much!
 * Best, Jeremycohen333 (talk) 06:43, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Spintendo, I've previously left a message on your Talk page as well to see when we can get this next step going with the other editor review. Would you have some time soon please I'd like to help resolve this asap. Appreciate your response to the topic at your earliest convenience. Thank you kind sir! Jeremycohen333 (talk) 21:46, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposed update for "The Dissident"
Hello Wikipedians, I’m proposing edits for the Career section “The Dissident” on behalf of the subject Bryan Fogel to expand on this documentary as part of his career biography.

Thank you in advance in reviewing the additional information on this topic of the subject’s biography.


 * Specific text to be added or removed: See below formatted text including citations for all topics discussed.
 * Reason for the change: Presently, this section does not include a biography of events in direct relation to Fogel's work on the film The Dissident with some information that includes film reviews and features discussing Fogel, mention of awards received and film distribution details. Proposing updating Fogel's biography to include the following below.
 * References supporting change: Reliable and notable sourced articles included in proposed edits.


 * #1-6 Citations: Revise current biography with additional info as the first paragraph of the organization that Fogel connected with to help with his documentary, as well citing more details on notable political and entertainment figures that attended the premiere of this film.


 * After Icarus, in 2020, Fogel under the banner Orwell Productions, co-wrote, directed and produced the documentary feature film The Dissident, which follows the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi and Saudi Arabia's efforts to control international dissent. Fogel would enlist the support of the Human Rights Foundation and Thor Halvorssen. Fogel envisioned telling a story that went far beyond the newspaper headlines of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder. The film had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in January 24, 2020 attended by Hillary Clinton, Alec Baldwin and Reed Hastings.


 * #7-10 Citations: Add as the next paragraph citing issues with distribution due to the subject matter of Fogel’s film.


 * Despite excellent reviews, major film studios were reluctant to pick up the film, for fear of reprisals.  While The Dissident was met with acclaim when it premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, Fogel had trouble finding a distributor for the film, believing that this was due to the distributors’ ties to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.


 * #11-14 Citations: Add as the next paragraph to include reliable and notable sourced reviews directly mentioning Fogel’s work as a filmmaker.


 * Fogel’s film was applauded by critics, "Fogel's investigation is vigorous, deep and comprehensive." and "an eye-opening thriller brew of corruption, cover-up, and real-world courage." “Bryan Fogel’s new documentary about the killing of Jamal Khashoggi underlines the disregard for human rights when money and geopolitics are at play.” “The fact that there have been no controversies about it The Dissident since its release proves that Fogel got all his facts right which makes it an even more astounding achievement.”


 * #15-18 Citations: Revise current bio information as the last paragraph, including notable co-writer with additional citations to support this topic.


 * The film was released on December 18, 2020, by Briarcliff Entertainment. Fogel's screenplay for The Dissident won the Writers Guild of America Award for Best Documentary Screenplay award at the 73rd Writers Guild of America Awards alongside Mark Monroe in 2020 and Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA Nomination for Best Documentary Feature.

Thank you for your consideration. Moliere93 (talk) 21:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC) Moliere93 (talk) 21:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)


 * With regards to your current request, it is not known what is meant by your headings "1-6 citations" and "7-10 citations". I'm guessing that this is related to the previous discussions I've had with User:Jeremycohen333 with regards to attempts to expand the artcle (the requested text proposed by you seems very similar to text that has already been proposed by Jeremycohen333 and reviewed by me.) I would suggest taking a look at the previous layers of requests in order to garner an understanding of why certain requests were implemented and others were not. If you have any questions about specific reviews of specific proposals please feel free to ask here or on my talk page. Regards, Spintendo  22:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Spintendo, thank you for your reply. Yes, this is related to your previous discussions with User:Jeremycohen333 regarding "1-6 citations" and "7-10 citations". I am stepping in to help clarifying since I have been working on The Dissident for 11 months on a daily basis and want to make sure your requests are answered and the information and sources provided are accurate and also complying with your guidelines.
 * Please let me know how I could help facilitating and getting this section posted. Moliere93 (talk) 01:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply, but I don't see where there is a current request for clarification pending. My last request for clarification, dated August 14th, 2023, was answered (on the same day) and replied to with a decision (on September 23rd, 2023). A further reply (dated September 27) was not signed by the posting editor, and thus was not given an answer by me. If you have a new request, please post it below. Regards, Spintendo  01:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Spintendo, in reviewing this proposal, the additions by Moliere93 pertain to a new topic for "The Dissident" under the "Career" section. I've now signed the latest revisions proposed under "Additional revised content proposed for "Icarus" which is the prior topic I've replied to Reply 27-SEP-2023.
 * Best, Jeremy Jeremycohen333 (talk) 07:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply Jeremycohen, but Moliere already responded to my question and indicated that it was indeed related to my previous discussion with Jeremycohen ":Hi Spintendo, thank you for your reply. Yes, this is related to your previous discussions with User:Jeremycohen333 regarding "1-6 citations" and "7-10 citations". As I replied to Moliere, that discussion between Jeremycohen and I was completed (at the time). If there is a new request, please post it at the bottom of the talk page. Regards, Spintendo  21:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Reply 10-OCT-2023
Hi Spintendo,

I've revised the edit request summaries per my previous proposal.


 * Update first paragraph to note the organization Fogel connected with to help with his documentary, as well citing notable political and entertainment figures that attended the premiere of his film.


 * After Icarus, in 2020, Fogel under the banner Orwell Productions, co-wrote, directed and produced the documentary feature film The Dissident, which follows the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi and Saudi Arabia's efforts to control international dissent. Fogel would enlist the support of the Human Rights Foundation and Thor Halvorssen. Fogel envisioned telling a story that went far beyond the newspaper headlines of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder. The film had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in January 24, 2020 attended by Hillary Clinton, Alec Baldwin and Reed Hastings.


 * Add next paragraph citing issues with distribution due to the subject matter of Fogel's film.


 * Despite excellent reviews, major film studios were reluctant to pick up the film, for fear of reprisals.  While The Dissident was met with acclaim when it premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, Fogel had trouble finding a distributor for the film, believing that this was due to the distributors’ ties to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.


 * Add next paragraph to include reliable and notable sourced reviews directly mentioning Fogel’s work as a filmmaker.


 * Fogel’s film was applauded by critics, "Fogel's investigation is vigorous, deep and comprehensive." and "an eye-opening thriller brew of corruption, cover-up, and real-world courage." “Bryan Fogel’s new documentary about the killing of Jamal Khashoggi underlines the disregard for human rights when money and geopolitics are at play.” “The fact that there have been no controversies about it The Dissident since its release proves that Fogel got all his facts right which makes it an even more astounding achievement.”


 * Revise current bio information as last paragraph, including notable co-writer with additional citations to support this topic.


 * The film was released on December 18, 2020, by Briarcliff Entertainment. Fogel's screenplay for The Dissident won the Writers Guild of America Award for Best Documentary Screenplay award at the 73rd Writers Guild of America Awards alongside Mark Monroe in 2020 and Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA Nomination for Best Documentary Feature.

Thank you again for your review. Moliere93 (talk) 00:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Reply 11-OCT-2023
In sections where your asking text to be revised, I need to see a verbatim description of the text to be removed. You've not included that with your request. The reasons for the changes being made also need to be clearer. Thus far, you've stated what is to be changed but you have not stated why it needs to be changed
 * In the section of text below titled Sample edit request, the main required items are shown as an example:

 1. Please remove the third sentence from the second paragraph of the Sun section:
 * "The Sun's diameter is estimated to be approximately 25 miles in length."

2. Please add the following claim as the third sentence of the second paragraph of the Sun section:
 * "The Sun's diameter is estimated to be approximately 864,337 miles in length."

3. Using as the reference:

4. Reason for change being made:
 * "The previously given diameter was incorrect."


 * Kindly open a new edit request at your earliest convenience when ready to proceed with all four items from your request. Thank you!

Regards, Spintendo  22:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Spintendo, could you please let me know if my edits of November 7th addressing your feedback and guidelines are accepted and can be posted? Thank you. Moliere93 (talk) 02:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Reply 07-NOV-2023
Hi Spintendo, thank you for your guidance for the proper COI template for the proposed edits. The prior requests have been formatted accordingly to address each revision or addition to The Dissident section on Fogel's article.

• Please revise the first sentence of The Dissident section adding Fogel's production company and co-wrote credit, as well as adding "feature" preceding "film":

After Icarus, in 2020, Fogel under the banner Orwell Productions, co-wrote, directed and produced the 2020 American documentary feature film The Dissident, which follows the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi and Saudi Arabia's efforts to control international dissent.

• Using the same reference:

• Reason for change being made: Fogel’s production company “Orwell Productions” should be noted here in connection with his feature film credit.

---

• Please add as the second sentence of The Dissident section:

Fogel would enlist the support of the Human Rights Foundation and Thor Halvorssen.

• Using as the reference:

• Reason for change being made: Add the notable non-profit organization and founder that Fogel connected with to work together on his documentary film.

---

• Please add as the third sentence of The Dissident section:

Fogel envisioned telling a story that went far beyond the newspaper headlines of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder.

• Using as the reference:

• Reason for change being made: Reporting of this incident had conflicting details and that inspired Fogel to research this subject and ultimately create a documentary based on these events.

---

• Please revise the second sentence in the current wiki article, which will be the fourth sentence of The Dissident section:

The film had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in January 24, 2020 attended by Hillary Clinton, Alec Baldwin and Reed Hastings.

• Using as the references:

After “January 24, 2020”: After “Hillary Clinton”:

After “Reed Hastings”:

• Reason for change being made: Add notable political and entertainment industry figures that attended the premiere of his film.

---

• Please add a second paragraph of The Dissident section:

Despite excellent reviews, major film studios were reluctant to pick up the film, for fear of reprisals. While The Dissident was met with acclaim when it premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, Fogel had trouble finding a distributor for the film, believing that this was due to the distributors’ ties to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

• Using as the 3 references after “…fear of reprisals”:

• Using as the references at the end of second sentence “…Kingdom of Saudi Arabia”:

• Reason for change being made: Fogel’s documentary was highly anticipated and initial reviews were positive, however distribution was difficult to obtain due to the subject matter of Fogel's film.

---

• Please add a third paragraph in The Dissident section:

Fogel’s film was applauded by critics, ‘Fogel's investigation is vigorous, deep and comprehensive’ and ‘an eye-opening thriller brew of corruption, cover-up, and real-world courage.

• Using as the reference after first review “…deep and comprehensive”:

• Using as the reference after second review “…real-world courage.”

• Using as the reference after third review “…geopolitics are at play.”

• Using as the reference after forth review “…astounding achievement.”

• Reason for change being made: Include a select few of critics reviews from notable publications directly mentioning Fogel’s work as a filmmaker on the documentary.

---

• Please revise the last sentence as a new paragraph in the current wiki article of The Dissident section combining Sundance Film Festival screening date next to world-wide premiere date. Also please add Mark Monroe (co-writer) after "73rd Writers Guild of America Awards". And finally add a wiki link to "Best Documentary Feature" for BAFTA nomination recipients list that includes The Dissident for the award year.

The film was released on December 18, 2020, by Briarcliff Entertainment. Fogel's screenplay for The Dissident won the Writers Guild of America Award for Best Documentary Screenplay award at the 73rd Writers Guild of America Awards alongside Mark Monroe in 2020 and Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA Nomination for Best Documentary Feature.

• Using as the reference after “73rd Writers Guild of America Awards”:

• Using as references after “Mark Monroe”:

• Using as the reference at end of sentence/paragraph “Best Documentary Feature”:

• Reason for change being made: Add references to specific Awards mentioned and slightly revise sentence to indicate this was Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA nomination.

Thank you for your consideration. Moliere93 (talk) 04:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Reply 05-FEB-2024
Hi Spintendo,

I would like to revisit these edit requests (see above) per my previous proposal that have not been addressed and would either like to continue this process with you or will start a new proposal for another editor’s review.

Thanks.. Moliere93 (talk) 20:25, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposed revisions and additional information for "The Dissident"
Hello Wikipedians, I'm re-submitting the proposed revisions and additions since I was unable to get a response from the prior editor after several attempts and a 6 month wait for a reply. See below the suggestions per COA template.

• Please revise the first sentence of The Dissident section adding Fogel's production company and co-wrote credit, as well as adding "feature" preceding "film":

After Icarus, in 2020, Fogel under the banner Orwell Productions, co-wrote, directed and produced the 2020 American documentary feature film The Dissident, which follows the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi and Saudi Arabia's efforts to control international dissent.

• Using the same reference:

• Reason for change being made: Fogel’s production company “Orwell Productions” should be noted here in connection with his feature film credit.

---

• Please add as the second sentence of The Dissident section:

Fogel would enlist the support of the Human Rights Foundation and Thor Halvorssen.

• Using as the reference:

• Reason for change being made: Add the notable non-profit organization and founder that Fogel connected with to work together on his documentary film.

---

• Please add as the third sentence of The Dissident section:

Fogel envisioned telling a story that went far beyond the newspaper headlines of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder.

• Using as the reference:

• Reason for change being made: Reporting of this incident had conflicting details and that inspired Fogel to research this subject and ultimately create a documentary based on these events.

---

• Please revise the second sentence in the current wiki article, which will be the fourth sentence of The Dissident section:

The film had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in January 24, 2020 attended by Hillary Clinton, Alec Baldwin and Reed Hastings.

• Using as the references:

After “January 24, 2020”: After “Hillary Clinton”:

After “Reed Hastings”:

• Reason for change being made: Add notable political and entertainment industry figures that attended the premiere of his film.

---

• Please add a second paragraph of The Dissident section:

Despite excellent reviews, major film studios were reluctant to pick up the film, for fear of reprisals. While The Dissident was met with acclaim when it premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, Fogel had trouble finding a distributor for the film, believing that this was due to the distributors’ ties to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

• Using as the 3 references after “…fear of reprisals”:

• Using as the references at the end of second sentence “…Kingdom of Saudi Arabia”:

• Reason for change being made: Fogel’s documentary was highly anticipated and initial reviews were positive, however distribution was difficult to obtain due to the subject matter of Fogel's film.

---

• Please add a third paragraph in The Dissident section:

Fogel’s film was applauded by critics, ‘Fogel's investigation is vigorous, deep and comprehensive’ and ‘an eye-opening thriller brew of corruption, cover-up, and real-world courage.

• Using as the reference after first review “…deep and comprehensive”:

• Using as the reference after second review “…real-world courage.”

• Using as the reference after third review “…geopolitics are at play.”

• Using as the reference after forth review “…astounding achievement.”

• Reason for change being made: Include a select few of critics reviews from notable publications directly mentioning Fogel’s work as a filmmaker on the documentary.

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• Please revise the last sentence as a new paragraph in the current wiki article of The Dissident section combining Sundance Film Festival screening date next to world-wide premiere date. Also please add Mark Monroe (co-writer) after "73rd Writers Guild of America Awards". And finally add a wiki link to "Best Documentary Feature" for BAFTA nomination recipients list that includes The Dissident for the award year.

The film was released on December 18, 2020, by Briarcliff Entertainment. Fogel's screenplay for The Dissident won the Writers Guild of America Award for Best Documentary Screenplay award at the 73rd Writers Guild of America Awards alongside Mark Monroe in 2020 and Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA Nomination for Best Documentary Feature.

• Using as the reference after “73rd Writers Guild of America Awards”:

• Using as references after “Mark Monroe”:

• Using as the reference at end of sentence/paragraph “Best Documentary Feature”:

• Reason for change being made: Add references to specific Awards mentioned and slightly revise sentence to indicate this was Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA nomination.

Many thanks in advance for your review and assistance to help publish this article updates. Moliere93 (talk) 01:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)