Talk:Bryant & Stratton College/Archive 1

Deleted edit
A Mary Gotham does work at the Syracuse campus, but a statement about her was deleted, as noted in the history log, as violating WP:POV, WP:RS, etc. Bearian 20:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC) See RateMyProfessors; Wikipedia is not the same as RateMyProfessor.com. Bearian 20:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Title
Why don't we rename the title to "Bryant & Stratton College"? --Octra Bond (talk) 01:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

=
===

The name of the owner is Bryant H. Prentice, III    not  Bryant H. Prentiss,III Hamiltoncourt (talk) 23:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Possible vandalism
The page for Bryant & Stratton College was woefully inadequate and outdated. Updated a significant amount of information that was removed by 2a02:1205:5013:cca0:e0f0:1e92:ad9:ce30 without a discussion. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 21:41, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User CollegeMeltdown, I already got in touch with you on your user talk page. In case you haven't seen my comment, I am posting to you here: I am sure your edits on Bryant & Stratton College happened in good faith. However, there are many issues with your edits: It is honorable that you attempt to contribute as much as possible but sometimes, less is more. The vast majority of your edits are either outdated, irrelevant or both (e.g. average salaries of students, average student loan payments, popularity of majors, (old) student numbers for individual campuses etc.). Also, you should pay attention not to excessively list information (rather prose) and not majorly simply copy information from the sources. Your edits also caused errors in the reference section. This is why I will revert your edits. For further information on my reasoning, please see the following Wikipedia policies and guidelines: WP:NOTSTATS, WP:IRRELEVANT, WP:LISTDD, WP:PROSELINE, WP:EXCESSDETAIL, WP:REF, WP:COPYPASTE, WP:UNIGUIDE, WP:NOTCATALOG, WP:DISRUPT. Thanks.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:E0F0:1E92:AD9:CE30 (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with your opinion that the information is "either outdated, irrelevant or both." The older page read like an outdated advertisement. College Scorecard data and information about the school in 2019 are relevant. These are the most up to date numbers from NCES and the 2011 numbers are added to show the campus population declines. The enrollment losses at ground campuses are significant and the change in ownership, from family owned to private equity owned, is significant. I also included important information on the academic programs and sports. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Please decide where you want to discuss: On this talk page or on your user talk page. I gave you an explanation for my reasoning on here and on your user talk page. I will revert and restore my version as per my first post to you and according to the Wiki policies and guidelines I stated in my first post and in my edit summary.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:E0F0:1E92:AD9:CE30 (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

We should talk on this page. If all of these entries are removed, I have to wonder, what is the purpose of Wikipedia? Is it supposed to be read like an Encyclopedia Brittanica from 1960? Go ahead, and whitewash the page per Wikipedia guidelines; I can't stop you. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 22:04, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Things that were deleted from Bryant & Stratton story
Rather than have all of my entries removed by an anonymous source again, here are some highlights from the Bryant & Stratton story that were deleted:

Parthenon Capital Partners, a private equity firm, has been an investor in Bryant & Stratton since 2008, and has owned a controlling interest in the school since December 2017. Parthenon is based in San Francisco, California with offices in Boston, Massachusetts and Austin, Texas.

Timeline:
 * (1867) Mr. Stratton died, and according to Ohio History Central, this prompted the decline of the chain schools.
 * (2009) Bryant & Stratton Limited Partnership and the other minority shareholders sold portions of their stock to Parthenon Capital Partners, a private equity company.
 * (2015) Cleveland.com reported that the Bryant & Stratton location in Cleveland had the lowest college graduation rate in Ohio.
 * (2017) Bryant & Stratton Limited Partnership regained a controlling interest in the school. The ownership change was approved by the New York State Board of Regents.
 * (2018) The downtown Milwaukee campus was closed in August. The Cleveland campus was relocated to Solon in October. The new campus has a nursing and occupational therapy assistant lab, a student union with a library, and an athletics program, which includes interscholastic men's and women's basketball.
 * (2019) Bryant & Stratton included competitive esports to their sports programs and became members of NACE.

Faculty: Bryant & Stratton's online faculty consists of 30 full-time instructors and 407 part-time instructors. The Buffalo campus has 16 full-time instructors and 47 part-time instructors.

Student body: According to the College Scorecard, Bryant & Stratton online is 52% White, 36% Black, 6% Hispanic, 4% Two or more races, 1% American Indian/Alaska Native, and 1% Asian. Eighty one percent receive federal student loans. In 2016-17, 113 veterans used the GI Bill for the online campus and 6 servicemembers used Department of Defense Tuition Assistance for the online campus. Five veterans used GI Bill funding at the Buffalo campus in 2016-17.

Headcounts in 2017 (and 2011)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Akron 88
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Albany 371 (845)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Amherst 282 (565)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Bayshore 353 (391)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Buffalo 491 (954)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Cleveland 263 (1000)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Eastlake 238 (975)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Greece 217 (422)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Hampton 303 (96)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Henrietta 184 (522)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Milwaukee 152 (1071) [downtown Milwaukee closed 2018]
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Orchard Park, NY, Online 4114
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Parma 354 (856)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Richmond 675 (924)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Southtowns 418 (1749)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Syracuse 439 (769)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Syracuse North 258 (627)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Virginia Beach 484 (838)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Wauwatosa 781 (942)

Student outcomes According to the College Scorecard, Bryant & Stratton's graduation rate ranges from 6 percent in Cleveland, Ohio to 37 percent in Amherst, New York. Average salary after attending is $24,100. Typical debt after graduation is $23,055 and the typical student loan monthly payment is $245. The student loan repayment rate is 19 percent.CollegeMeltdown (talk) 03:07, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Possible vandalism
The page for Bryant & Stratton College was woefully inadequate and outdated. Updated a significant amount of information that was removed by 2a02:1205:5013:cca0:e0f0:1e92:ad9:ce30 without a discussion. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 21:41, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User CollegeMeltdown, I already got in touch with you on your user talk page. In case you haven't seen my comment, I am posting to you here: I am sure your edits on Bryant & Stratton College happened in good faith. However, there are many issues with your edits: It is honorable that you attempt to contribute as much as possible but sometimes, less is more. The vast majority of your edits are either outdated, irrelevant or both (e.g. average salaries of students, average student loan payments, popularity of majors, (old) student numbers for individual campuses etc.). Also, you should pay attention not to excessively list information (rather prose) and not majorly simply copy information from the sources. Your edits also caused errors in the reference section. This is why I will revert your edits. For further information on my reasoning, please see the following Wikipedia policies and guidelines: WP:NOTSTATS, WP:IRRELEVANT, WP:LISTDD, WP:PROSELINE, WP:EXCESSDETAIL, WP:REF, WP:COPYPASTE, WP:UNIGUIDE, WP:NOTCATALOG, WP:DISRUPT. Thanks.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:E0F0:1E92:AD9:CE30 (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User: 2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:E0F0:1E92:AD9:CE30,I disagree with your opinion that the information is "either outdated, irrelevant or both." The older page read like an outdated advertisement. College Scorecard data and information about the school in 2019 are relevant. These are the most up to date numbers from NCES and the 2011 numbers are added to show the campus population declines. The enrollment losses at ground campuses are significant and the change in ownership, from family owned to private equity owned, is significant. I also included important information on the academic programs and sports. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Please decide where you want to discuss: On this talk page or on your user talk page. I gave you an explanation for my reasoning on here and on your user talk page. I will revert and restore my version as per my first post to you and according to the Wiki policies and guidelines I stated in my first post and in my edit summary.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:E0F0:1E92:AD9:CE30 (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

We should talk on this page. If all of these entries are removed, I have to wonder, what is the purpose of Wikipedia? Is it supposed to be read like an Encyclopedia Brittanica from 1960? Go ahead, and whitewash the page per Wikipedia guidelines; I can't stop you. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 22:04, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Things that were deleted from Bryant & Stratton story
Rather than have all of my entries removed by an anonymous source again, here are some highlights from the Bryant & Stratton story that were deleted:

Parthenon Capital Partners, a private equity firm, has been an investor in Bryant & Stratton since 2008, and has owned a controlling interest in the school since December 2017. Parthenon is based in San Francisco, California with offices in Boston, Massachusetts and Austin, Texas.

Timeline:
 * (1867) Mr. Stratton died, and according to Ohio History Central, this prompted the decline of the chain schools.
 * (2009) Bryant & Stratton Limited Partnership and the other minority shareholders sold portions of their stock to Parthenon Capital Partners, a private equity company.
 * (2015) Cleveland.com reported that the Bryant & Stratton location in Cleveland had the lowest college graduation rate in Ohio.
 * (2017) Bryant & Stratton Limited Partnership regained a controlling interest in the school. The ownership change was approved by the New York State Board of Regents.
 * (2018) The downtown Milwaukee campus was closed in August. The Cleveland campus was relocated to Solon in October. The new campus has a nursing and occupational therapy assistant lab, a student union with a library, and an athletics program, which includes interscholastic men's and women's basketball.
 * (2019) Bryant & Stratton included competitive esports to their sports programs and became members of NACE.

Faculty: Bryant & Stratton's online faculty consists of 30 full-time instructors and 407 part-time instructors. The Buffalo campus has 16 full-time instructors and 47 part-time instructors.

Student body: According to the College Scorecard, Bryant & Stratton online is 52% White, 36% Black, 6% Hispanic, 4% Two or more races, 1% American Indian/Alaska Native, and 1% Asian. Eighty one percent receive federal student loans. In 2016-17, 113 veterans used the GI Bill for the online campus and 6 servicemembers used Department of Defense Tuition Assistance for the online campus. Five veterans used GI Bill funding at the Buffalo campus in 2016-17.

Headcounts in 2017 (and 2011)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Akron 88
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Albany 371 (845)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Amherst 282 (565)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Bayshore 353 (391)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Buffalo 491 (954)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Cleveland 263 (1000)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Eastlake 238 (975)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Greece 217 (422)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Hampton 303 (96)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Henrietta 184 (522)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Milwaukee 152 (1071) [downtown Milwaukee closed 2018]
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Orchard Park, NY, Online 4114
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Parma 354 (856)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Richmond 675 (924)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Southtowns 418 (1749)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Syracuse 439 (769)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Syracuse North 258 (627)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Virginia Beach 484 (838)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Wauwatosa 781 (942)

Student outcomes According to the College Scorecard, Bryant & Stratton's graduation rate ranges from 6 percent in Cleveland, Ohio to 37 percent in Amherst, New York. Average salary after attending is $24,100. Typical debt after graduation is $23,055 and the typical student loan monthly payment is $245. The student loan repayment rate is 19 percent.CollegeMeltdown (talk) 03:07, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Additional information about Bryant & Stratton
January 25, 2019 Toby Ann Stavisky Member of the New York State Senate Chair, Senate Standing Committee on Higher Education

"Currently, 20 of New York’s 89 for-profits would fail the 80-20 test if it became law today. Among the 20 is the largest for-profit in New York, Bryant and Stratton College.  It enrolls about 7,000 students.  The earning power of its students after leaving the school is less than the average high school graduate, according to federal data available on College Scorecard. Worse, the tuition is so high and the salaries so low that only 27% of this forprofit’s students can pay down a single dollar of principal seven (7) years after leaving Bryant. The other 73% are making payments under income driven plans that are so low (due to low wages) that they do not even cover the interest that accumulates each month.  In other words, the vast majority of Bryant students leave school with debt they will never repay. This is not the case with students that attend private non-profits or public schools. 60% of them are reducing their debt each month through repayment."   CollegeMeltdown (talk) 04:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Essential Bryant & Stratton History
It's important to understand the history of Bryant & Stratton College as one of the largest for-profit college chains in the 19th century. Bryant & Stratton was at the forefront of professional training and standardization of classes.

According to their literature, by 1863, the Bryant & Stratton chain had schools in
 * New York City
 * Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
 * Brooklyn, New York
 * Albany, New York
 * Troy, New York
 * Buffalo, New York
 * Cleveland, Ohio
 * Detroit, Michigan
 * Chicago, Illinois
 * Saint Louis, Missouri
 * Toronto, Canada
 * Providence, Rhode Island
 * Portland, Maine

By 1864, the chain had grown to about 40 to 50 schools, then partially collapsed.

According to the book History of Milwaukee Wisconsin (1881), Bryant and Stratton became too large and "unwieldy" and its management was "faulty." As a result, the Milwaukee school became an independent entity. https://books.google.com/books?id=VLMxMTX_VYcC&pg=PA262&dq=bryant+and+stratton&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmr_362OTiAhVipVkKHd8mCGk4ChDoAQhIMAY#v=onepage&q=bryant%20and%20stratton&f=false

A 1917 volume of College and Private School Directory of the United States and Canada, reported colleges in Chicago, New Albany, Louisville, Saint Louis, Manchester, Buffalo, Boston, Providence, and Warren, Ohio.

CollegeMeltdown (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

AJ Angulo's analysis of Bryant & Stratton
In Diploma Mills: How For-Profit Colleges Stiffed Students, Taxpayers, and the American Dream, AJ Angulo wrote that the Bryant & Stratton College chain squeezed out local business colleges and forced these schools to pay 30 to 50 percent of their profits to be corporate partners. He also noted that the company often used inflated claims about job guarantees after graduation and that other proprietary schools followed suit. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 00:50, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Interscholastic Esports
Bryant & Stratton has two campuses with esports, Hampton, Virginia and Wauwatosa, Wisconsin. Both campuses have invested in esports labs, and students are being recruited for intercollegiate play. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 04:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Request for semi-protection of Bryant & Stratton College article and talk page
The Wikipedia page for Bryant & Stratton College is outdated and appears more like an old advertisement. The current article has little information, aside from its origins in the 19th century, the mention of John D. Rockefeller and Henry Ford, and a list of about 70 "notable alumni," most of whom lived in the 19th century or early 20th century. In some cases, a so-called notable alumnus may have taken one short-term course, as John D. Rockefeller did, but there appears to be no way of knowing. There are links to other Wikipedia pages, but no source listed for the entry in this article. Even the newest material seems outdated (e.g. graduation on second life). The current article also has enrollment numbers that have no source.

I have attempted to add reliable and valid information, including scholarly information, but it has been quickly deleted by one person using three IP addresses. The unknown source has also resorted to telling me not to lie (WP:DNTL) and calling my efforts dishonest. (WP:DISHONEST)

I am requesting that the Bryant & Stratton College article be semi-protected indefinitely, so that others can make good faith edits. WP:SEMI

I would like to add basic information about Bryant & Stratton College, to include:

1. Ownership changes. If old information about ownership is important to the school's history, why wouldn't the school's takeover by a private equity firm be useful? Or that the Bryant & Stratton Limited Partnership was able to buy back the shares in 2017?

2. Verifiable information about enrollment and student outcomes. The number of 13,000+ students had no source. NCES numbers from FY 2017 indicate about 10,000 students. Student outcomes are available at the College Scorecard. While the numbers from the National Center for Education Statistics may be two years old, they are the most valid public source.

3. Information about new programs, such as interscholastic esports.

4. Scholarly sources that specifically refer to the Bryant & Stratton chain, such as historian AJ Angulo's Diploma Mills: How For-Profit Colleges Stiffed Students, Taxpayers, and the American Dream. This source specifically mentions Bryant & Stratton's chain of schools in the 19th century, its reputation in the business community, and its use of exaggerated claims to recruit students. There may be other sources, such as "Meaning and practice of commercial education" (1907) by Cheesman Abiah Herrick.

WP:SEMI WP:BIAS WP:DISRUPTSIGNS WP:DAPE WP:REFCollegeMeltdown (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User:CollegeMeltdown, Wikipedia requires objectivity and neutrality (for Wikipedia in general see WP:POV and for talk pages in particular see WP:TALK). As such, the whole story must be presented to the audience (see WP:TALKNO). Therefore, you should also point to our discussions which had previously occurred at your user talk page. I explained to you, beforehand, several times on your user talk page why your edits and behavior go against Wikipedia policies (see User:CollegeMeltdown's talk page: []). I also outlined to you already the problematics of cross-posting on different talk pages (WP:CROSS-POST). Why I am primarily here though is: PLEASE SIGN YOUR POSTS. Signing your talk page posts is also a requirement per Wikipedia policies (see WP:SIG). You forgot to sign your last post here. Not signing your posts can lead to disturbances in the talk page archiving process of the archiving bots. Thank you.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:B5A4:4381:297:666 (talk) 13:55, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User: 2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:B5A4:4381:297:666, thank you for noticing my error. I added my signature, per your shouting. WP:SHOUT. I also read your entries on my talk page and have thought carefully about your complaints. I think some of your arguments were vague or incorrect, which makes it difficult to respond with accuracy. I believe I answered your complaints as well as possible, without taking the attention away from making the article more accurate and relevant. In the future, let's go point by point, and with evidence. I agree with you that "the whole story must be presented to the audience." And I'm looking forward to your responses to each of my questions so that more work can be done on what I think is an inaccurate and outdated article (see WP:TALKNO. I encourage you to create an account so that you can be involved in this discussion if it becomes semi-protected. Judging from your understanding of Wikipedia rules, which I am still learning,that should be easy. Please use this page rather than my talk page. WP:SEMICollegeMeltdown (talk) 14:30, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

When old information is worse than new information
The enrollment of 13,020 is from FY 2013. That's six years ago. Higher education in the US has been declining in enrollment since 2011 and Bryant & Stratton College has nearly paralleled those. NCES shows the following enrollment:


 * FY 2017: 10465
 * FY 2016: 10288
 * FY 2015: 10942
 * FY 2014: 12195
 * FY 2013: 13020
 * FY 2012: 13758
 * FY 2011: 13932

CollegeMeltdown (talk) 18:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC) CollegeMeltdown (talk) 19:04, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User:CollegeMeltdown, You have posted so many links here... please just post the link with the 10465 number. Also, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE SIGN YOUR POST. I told you already previously that signing is a requirement per wiki policies and that not signing your posts can disturb the later archiving process... Thank you.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:BC17:1F14:3FBF:69A5 (talk) 18:52, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User:2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:BC17:1F14:3FBF:69A5, sorry about missing the signature. All the numbers are important because they indicate a downward trend with a bottom perhaps in 2016. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 19:01, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User:CollegeMeltdown, No, just the number in the infobox is important... the trend and fluctuations is again WP:POV, WP:TENDENTIOUS, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:EXCESSDETAIL, WP:IRRELEVANT etc. Please, just post the link from NCES with the 10465 number. Thank you.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:BC17:1F14:3FBF:69A5 (talk) 19:08, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Notable Alumni (Timothy McVeigh)
Rather than have this deleted from the article, I am first posting on the talk page about "notable alumni." I believe that the word "notable" could mean anyone who is famous or infamous. In that case, I suggest that we add Timothy McVeigh to the list. McVeigh's experience at Bryant & Stratton College is mentioned in a few books, including:

According to CNN, "American Terrorist" journalists Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck used "more than 75 hours of interviews with him (McVeigh) and accounts from dozens of family members, friends and associates from every phase of his life."
 * American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing
 * Terrorist Attacks on American Soil: From the Civil War Era to the Present
 * The Mystery of the Lone Wolf Killer: Anders Behring Breivik and the Threat of Terror in Plain Sight
 * A Mind for Murder: The Education of the Unabomber and the Origins of Modern Terrorism
 * All American Monster: The Unauthorized Biography of Timothy McVeigh
 * Pre-Incident Indicators of Terrorist Incidents: The Identification of Behavioral, Geographic, and Temporal Patterns of Preparatory Conduct

Internet sources like Encylopedia Brittanica and CNN note that he went to a business college but don't name the school.

CollegeMeltdown (talk) 21:06, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User:CollegeMeltdown, You are incorrigible... but in this one instance, I would have to PARTIALLY agree with you. While his name can be added to the alumni list - per wiki policies -, the rest is clear WP:POV, WP:ADVOCACY, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:IRRELEVANT etc. I will add his name to the alumni list tomorrow. I go to sleep now. I can't be on Wikipedia 24/7, I also have a life... during the week I have a job, during the weekend I am a responsible father. Please don't cause any issues in the meantime, be it technical or WP:POV-wise. I will add his name to the alumni list tomorrow. Thank you.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:2CF1:4CAC:DFD1:9AC5 (talk) 21:17, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Please add Timothy McVeigh to the beginning of the article. McVeigh, also known as the Oklahoma City Bomber, is an important person in US history. Perhaps I am biased, but I believe he was a terrorist. He is not an alumnus, however. and should be placed at the beginning rather than buried in the back. Please also take a look at the books that include both Timothy McVeigh and Bryant & Stratton College. Apparently he only went to school for 3 1/2 months then quit. He may have quit for many reasons, but the books with more detail state that McVeigh quit because the curriculum changed, that it was boring to him, and that he felt as if he had been misled. The book Pre-Incident Indicators of Terrorist Incidents: The Identification of Behavioral, Geographic, and Temporal Patterns of Preparatory Conduct is particularly interesting. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 21:50, 14 June 2019 (UTC)


 * CollegeMeltdown: McVeigh is indisputably notable. If he attending this college and that is supported by reliable sources then he's an alumnus.  Hence he should be added to this article if it includes a list of notable alumni.
 * 2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:2CF1:4CAC:DFD1:9AC5: You don't own this or any article nor are you personally empowered to police another editor's edits. ElKevbo (talk) 22:50, 14 June 2019 (UTC)


 * ElKevbo: I never claimed to own the article (please quote me where I did) and I am not policing other users. However, this article is one of the articles which I regularly patrol (WP:PATROLS). On a side note, I had agreed with you to add the terrorist in the alumni list (but certainly not excessively in the lead or elsewhere where User:CollegeMeltdown would like to see it). Having said that, what the terrorist did is irrelevant for this article. Merely stating that he is a terrorist is enough. Terrorism fanatics can read what he did in the terrorists own wiki article or in other sources. Thus, per WP:EXCESSDETAIL and WP:IRRELEVANT, I will shorten the statement next to him in the alumni section to simply "US-American terrorist". But again, as I expressed on your user talk page. I want to thank you that you added with proper referencing. Thank you.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:5DD7:9B6C:559C:D283 (talk) 10:13, 15 June 2019 (UTC)


 * 2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:5DD7:9B6C:559C:D283: I agree with ElKevbo. Does that give us consensus to at least revert the article back to what ElKevbo wrote?

By deleting nearly everything that others take the effort to include, your actions reflect someone trying to whitewash the Bryant & Stratton College story. It reads like a moldy 1960s Encyclopedia Brittanica (without the actual mold), or perhaps a Bryant & Stratton paper brochure from the 1970s. Yes, I am using hyperbole and humor to prove a point, without resorting to all caps. Really, the original reference for "campus locations" was from a 2007 source found with the Wayback Machine.

After reading more closely about Timothy McVeigh, and his experience at Bryant & Stratton, I now argue that McVeigh's name should be placed in the beginning, along with the captains of industry you try to include there. McVeigh was not a notable alumnus of Bryant & Stratton, but a student for 3 1/2 months before dropping out. At least two or three books indicate that McVeigh had a bad experience at one of the New York campuses: a situation in which he felt bored and which he eventually felt misled. After dropping out, McVeigh joined the military where he gained infantry skills and at least one ally who helped him with the Oklahoma City attack.

McVeigh's experience at Bryan & Stratton is a significant point in this story, because Angulo argues that Bryant & Stratton College had a history of misleading its customers/students and of bullying its other owners in the chain, and that their questionable business practices and their power to monopolize the market influenced at least one major competitor. While we cannot include consumer sites, they indicate that the school still has significant problems with its customers.

'''In this specific case about McVeigh and other notable former students, perhaps all of the names should be removed from the beginning, because they are irrelevant in comparison to McVeigh. You are referring to people who attended one of the schools more than a century ago. While the men are still historical figures, their experiences at Bryant & Stratton are not considered as significant to their power and influence. There is nothing bold about this article. (WP:BOLD): To make matters worse, the information is so outdated and incomplete that it is misleading by omission, for example:


 * You refuse to allow information on recent and current ownership.
 * You refuse to allow scholarship from one of the most expert historians in the field (AJ Angulo).
 * You refuse to allow a section on student outcomes,which are an essential part of a school's information.
 * You fight to keep student enrollment numbers that are about 30 percent higher than the FY 2017 numbers from NCES. While NCES data (College Scorecard) are two years old, that's better than having data that's significantly older and probably less accurate.
 * You refuse to allow new information about the school, such as its participation in interscholastic esports If you are an expert in Wikipedia, perhaps you could add an image about the esports at Bryant & Stratton College.

Perhaps with consensus we should semi-protect the Bryant and Stratton College article page.''' CollegeMeltdown (talk) 11:57, 15 June 2019 (UTC)