Talk:Bryant & Stratton College/Archive 2

Updating Bryant & Stratton article with recent images and information about women
There is at least one image that in Wikimedia Commons that we could add. It could be placed with the section on sports. Bryant & Stratton also has a long history of career training for women. I posted information about this in the article, but it was removed.01:31, 16 June 2019 (UTC)CollegeMeltdown (talk)

Possible vandalism
The page for Bryant & Stratton College was woefully inadequate and outdated. Updated a significant amount of information that was removed by 2a02:1205:5013:cca0:e0f0:1e92:ad9:ce30 without a discussion. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 21:41, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User CollegeMeltdown, I already got in touch with you on your user talk page. In case you haven't seen my comment, I am posting to you here: I am sure your edits on Bryant & Stratton College happened in good faith. However, there are many issues with your edits: It is honorable that you attempt to contribute as much as possible but sometimes, less is more. The vast majority of your edits are either outdated, irrelevant or both (e.g. average salaries of students, average student loan payments, popularity of majors, (old) student numbers for individual campuses etc.). Also, you should pay attention not to excessively list information (rather prose) and not majorly simply copy information from the sources. Your edits also caused errors in the reference section. This is why I will revert your edits. For further information on my reasoning, please see the following Wikipedia policies and guidelines: WP:NOTSTATS, WP:IRRELEVANT, WP:LISTDD, WP:PROSELINE, WP:EXCESSDETAIL, WP:REF, WP:COPYPASTE, WP:UNIGUIDE, WP:NOTCATALOG, WP:DISRUPT. Thanks.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:E0F0:1E92:AD9:CE30 (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello User: 2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:E0F0:1E92:AD9:CE30,I disagree with your opinion that the information is "either outdated, irrelevant or both." The older page read like an outdated advertisement. College Scorecard data and information about the school in 2019 are relevant. These are the most up to date numbers from NCES and the 2011 numbers are added to show the campus population declines. The enrollment losses at ground campuses are significant and the change in ownership, from family owned to private equity owned, is significant. I also included important information on the academic programs and sports. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Please decide where you want to discuss: On this talk page or on your user talk page. I gave you an explanation for my reasoning on here and on your user talk page. I will revert and restore my version as per my first post to you and according to the Wiki policies and guidelines I stated in my first post and in my edit summary.2A02:1205:5013:CCA0:E0F0:1E92:AD9:CE30 (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

We should talk on this page. If all of these entries are removed, I have to wonder, what is the purpose of Wikipedia? Is it supposed to be read like an Encyclopedia Brittanica from 1960? Go ahead, and whitewash the page per Wikipedia guidelines; I can't stop you. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 22:04, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

I restored this portion for documentation. Not sure where I went wrong with missing a signature. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 15:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Things that were deleted from Bryant & Stratton story
Rather than have all of my entries removed by an anonymous source again, here are some highlights from the Bryant & Stratton story that were deleted:

Parthenon Capital Partners, a private equity firm, was an an investor in Bryant & Stratton from 2008 to 2017.CollegeMeltdown (talk) 19:37, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Timeline:
 * (1867) Mr. Stratton died, and according to Ohio History Central, this prompted the decline of the chain schools.
 * (2009) Bryant & Stratton Limited Partnership and the other minority shareholders sold portions of their stock to Parthenon Capital Partners, a private equity company.
 * (2015) Cleveland.com reported that the Bryant & Stratton location in Cleveland had the lowest college graduation rate in Ohio.
 * (2017) Bryant & Stratton Limited Partnership regained a controlling interest in the school. The ownership change was approved by the New York State Board of Regents.
 * (2018) The downtown Milwaukee campus was closed in August. The Cleveland campus was relocated to Solon in October. The new campus has a nursing and occupational therapy assistant lab, a student union with a library, and an athletics program, which includes interscholastic men's and women's basketball.
 * (2019) Bryant & Stratton included competitive esports to their sports programs and became members of NACE.

Faculty: Bryant & Stratton's online faculty consists of 30 full-time instructors and 407 part-time instructors. The Buffalo campus has 16 full-time instructors and 47 part-time instructors.

Student body: According to the College Scorecard, Bryant & Stratton online is 52% White, 36% Black, 6% Hispanic, 4% Two or more races, 1% American Indian/Alaska Native, and 1% Asian. Eighty one percent receive federal student loans. In 2016-17, 113 veterans used the GI Bill for the online campus and 6 servicemembers used Department of Defense Tuition Assistance for the online campus. Five veterans used GI Bill funding at the Buffalo campus in 2016-17.

Headcounts in 2017 (and 2011)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Akron 88
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Albany 371 (845)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Amherst 282 (565)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Bayshore 353 (391)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Buffalo 491 (954)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Cleveland 263 (1000)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Eastlake 238 (975)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Greece 217 (422)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Hampton 303 (96)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Henrietta 184 (522)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Milwaukee 152 (1071) [downtown Milwaukee closed 2018]
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Orchard Park, NY, Online 4114
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Parma 354 (856)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Richmond 675 (924)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Southtowns 418 (1749)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Syracuse 439 (769)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Syracuse North 258 (627)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Virginia Beach 484 (838)
 * Bryant & Stratton College-Wauwatosa 781 (942)

Student outcomes According to the College Scorecard, Bryant & Stratton's graduation rate ranges from 6 percent in Cleveland, Ohio to 37 percent in Amherst, New York. Average salary after attending is $24,100. Typical debt after graduation is $23,055 and the typical student loan monthly payment is $245. The student loan repayment rate is 19 percent.CollegeMeltdown (talk) 03:07, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Receiving legal threats from legal representative of Bryant & Stratton College
On June 17, 2019, I received an email from someone claiming to be a legal representative for Bryant & Stratton College (BSC). The person added that "We expect that you refrain from editing our institution's Wikipedia page and rectify (i.e. revert) all of your contributions by Thursday, June 20 2019, 02:00 pm EST. Should you fail to follow our request, we will take legal action."

The allegations were:
 * Adding material which strongly suggests BSC is a diploma mill although it is accredited.
 * Linking terrorists to BSC.
 * Representing BSC as a failing business.
 * Adding statements that BSC engages in unethical and fraudulent activities.
 * Publishing private and intimate details about BSC's executives and owners.

I believe I can refute each of these specific claims.
 * BSC has been mentioned in a scholarly book (by AJ Angulo) about the history of for-profit education.
 * Timothy McVeigh, an American domestic terrorist, attended and dropped out of BSC. I did not add any additional terrorists, but one crime boss was already listed under "Notable Alumni".
 * Most BSC's campuses have been losing money, at least from the most recent NCES data. However, I do not recall posting anything on Wikipedia about this.
 * I'm not sure I understand what the lawyer means by "personal and intimate" details about the institution's executives and owners. I do know that the President of BSC has a DM from University of Phoenix. Anything that I have written is based on publicly retrieved information.

In addition, I have added a great deal of updated information about BSC. WP:Free speechCollegeMeltdown (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

The legal representative for Bryant & Stratton College has given me three options before filing a class action suit against me in three days.
 * 1: You provide us with your Wiki account login details and a member from our IT team will do the revision.
 * 2: We will attempt to give you instructions.
 * 3: We could enforce the revision on Wikipedia. This may mean the revelation of your identity on Wikipedia as well as the conflict of interest you have in the matter.

The lawyer adds that other parties may be involved in the lawsuit. WP:Free speechCollegeMeltdown (talk) 18:25, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I recommend dropping a note at WP:ANI so Wikipedia administrators are aware of this. ElKevbo (talk) 18:55, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * ElKevbo, thank you for the good advice. Just posted it. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course, options 1 and 2 are against Wikipedia policies on sharing of accounts and meatpuppetry. Option 3 depends on how they approaching things; if they mean legal threats or action against the WMF, they are free to do so; if they mean direct editing, they would be running afoul of WP:PAID.
 * Should they be looking on, I suggest to them that they resort to a much simpler step: post their concerns on this Talk page, particularly accompanied with sources to support their claims about what should or should not be on the page, when available. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:08, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Relax, and don’t respond. It’s just so obviously the IPv6 at the previous section trying to upset you or get you to submit to his wishes. Do t give them the satisfaction of even responding in any way; the best way to deal with TROLLs is to ignore them.  See also my comments at your ANI thread.  Mathglot (talk) 04:25, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I am so very certain that this is trollish nonsense, and I don’t want you to have to worry about this, that I make you the following offer: if this is still bothering you, I am happy to take over your edits. Just say the word, and I will revert all of your edits, and then I will redo them right back again to the way you had them.  The end result will be that the article will be precisely the way you left it, except now *I* will be the one responsible for all the edits that the *cough* “lawyer” doesn’t like. They can then send me their fake legal threat if they wish. Depending on my mood, I will either ignore them, or laugh at them and call them names. Otherwise, just relax. The guy who sent the email is a puerile little jerk lying, bullying troll, and will soon be banned from Wikipedia if he isn’t already. (And it is a “he”.) Please don’t let this bother you, just carry on doing what you’re doing. Happy (and calm) editing! Mathglot (talk) 04:46, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , thanks for the offer. I know now for certain that this is a hoaxer with an agenda. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 04:59, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe they're a graduate of the Bryant & Stratton College School of Law. EEng 05:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it’s User:Supervisor635, blocked in September 2015. See also their sockpuppets and User:Goldarab. In which case, all those edits from Swiss IPs were block evasion. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 05:16, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Alumni need references
There's a long list of alumni. WP:ALUMNI says:
 * All alumni information must be referenced. See Footnoting for technical help. Individual alumni need a citation to a) verify that they did indeed attend the school, and b) verify the statement of their notability in their short one- or two-line description. When alumni have their own articles in mainspace, it is not necessary for their notability to be referenced, as long as it is done in the biographical articles. Be sure to check the existing biography article to ensure that it demonstrates alumni status with a cited reference.

For most of those in the list, the claim that they were/are alumni is unreferenced. I thought of marking each member of this majority with "Citation needed", but at his stage doing so seems a bit "pointy". I suggest doing this one month from now, and removing those who are still unreferenced after six months. Comments? -- Hoary (talk) 13:33, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hoary, that sounds like a good idea. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 13:42, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That essay doesn't describe common practice in U.S. college and university articles. We typically only insist on citations for alumni that don't have their own article that link them to the institution.  In practice, nearly all alumni have their own article so it's uncommon for most inline lists of alumni to include many references.  The exceptions seem to be HBCUs where editors have commonly applied an alumni list template that places the listing in a table with a column for references.  (And stand-alone list articles may also be different but I haven't spent very much time editing or reading them so I'm not sure.) ElKevbo (talk) 15:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I prefer the guideline to what you say is the common practice. (Why not add citations?) -- Hoary (talk) 13:31, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * ElKevbo, as I start to examine the articles on people in this list, I find none that verifiably asserts that the man (they've all been men so far) went to B&S or somewhere that later merged into B&S. Is this (admittedly small) sample unrepresentative? Is it OK to leave in names merely on the strength of some editor's say-so? -- Hoary (talk) 14:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No, if the information is completely unsourced or if you have examined the sources and they don't support the assertion then you're perfectly within your rights to remove the information! My point above was simply that we're usually content to leave the details and sources in the article about an individual instead of always insisting that they also be included in their alma mater's article, too.  But that's a practical shortcut that could easily be challenged and discussed or just ignored for a particular article (especially if you're willing to copy or add references for a particular embedded list of alumni). ElKevbo (talk) 17:42, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of this conversation. That being the case, I made this edit (which added references, removed entries, and tagged several more as citation needed). I think we should honestly more so be discussing breaking out the Alumni section into its own article soon. It's pretty unwieldy at the moment. &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 17:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Once the list is referenced, it will be long, and its references will be bulky. Separating it will then be beneficial. Now, I can't see any advantage -- and separation would increase the number of articles on one's watchlist. -- Hoary (talk) 13:31, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

I've gone through the list. If the claim that somebody had gone to B&S (or a predecessor thereof) was referenced here, I took that claim at face value; I didn't investigate it. For every other person, I looked at his (and yes, it was uniformly his) Wikipedia page, to see if the claim was referenced. If it was referenced, and if I was able to check the reference, I added the reference to the list here. If I couldn't check the reference (because it wasn't on the web, or in one case was in Thai, which I can't read), or of course if there was no reference, I added the "Citation needed" flag to the item in the list here. I don't propose to do any more work on this; others are most welcome to do so. -- Hoary (talk) 12:45, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2019
Adding Shalrie Joseph to notable alumni. Joseph played soccer at the Syracuse campus prior to transferring to St. John's University and later becoming an MLS All Star. He is now the head coach of the Grenada National Team (per his wiki entry). Bryant & Stratton served as a jumping off point for his collegiate soccer career which eventually led him to professional success. He's by far the most notable athlete to compete for Bryant & Stratton. His time with Bryant & Stratton is noted in his official MLS bio here Jcutender24 (talk) 15:24, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Change in Leadership & Ancillary Updates
As of January, the President is David Vaden. College colors are wrong. The note on HCM is misleading because the issue was resolved in the 9/1/15 update. I'm not acting on behalf of the College, simply pointing out errors but I keep getting smacked around. ChrisK240 (talk) 18:45, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I have made these noncontroversial updates to the infobox. In the future, please do not make misleading statements about your COI ('not acting on behalf of the College' when you are an employee), transparency is key. If you format your requests as explained at Template:Request_edit, they will be properly entered into the review list for action by neutral volunteers. Thanks in advance for your cooperation. - MrOllie (talk) 20:55, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Timothy McVeigh?
I was brought here because I noticed the filing at Dispute Resolution, and after having driven by a sign for the school many times in my life, figured I might as well weigh in! In general, I support MrOllie's changes, though listing Timothy McVeigh as an alum feels...off to me. Technically true and reported, I don't dispute that, but the connection so far as I know was pretty brief and tenuous, such that it hits me the wrong way. My instinct would be that we should try to exercise a little extra caution with such widely reviled figures, and so, I would take that out of this article. As ever though, just my opinion, and happy to follow consensus. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:57, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Organization Updates

 * Specific text to be added or removed:

REMOVE: "Today, there are 19 physical locations and an online education division.[18] The board chair of the school is Bryant Prentice III, great-great grandson of John Collins Bryant.[19] The current president of Bryant & Stratton is Francis J. Felser, who has a doctorate from University of Phoenix.[20] and has worked in various capacities at the school for more than 25 years.[21]"

ADD: Today, there are 17 physical locations and an Online Education division.[18] The Past Board chair of the school was Bryant Prentice III, great-great grandson of John Collins Bryant.[19] The current Chair of the Board is Dr. Marie Cini. The current President of Bryant & Stratton is David Vaden, who has a M.B.A from Columbia School of Business and a B.S from St. John Fisher University. President Vaden has worked in various capacities at the school for more than 13 years.


 * Reason for the change: New President, BoD Changes, Campus Closures

ChrisKatBSC (talk) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * References supporting change: See refs in text


 * I updated the president and number of campus locations - thanks! I didn't update the chair but removed the information altogether; I think it's unnecessarily detailed. ElKevbo (talk) 22:11, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Campus and Outcome Information

 * Specific text to be added or removed: See below


 * Reason for the change: Data in outcomes section only reflects one of eighteen campuses, which does not accurately reflect the organization profiled on this page.


 * References supporting change: See refs in table

REMOVE: "According to the College Scorecard, Bryant & Stratton online has an 18 percent graduation rate and a median student debt after graduation ranging from $11,400 to $51,442. Median salary after attending ranges from 17, 859 to 41,937. Six percent of student debtors were making progress with their loans. College Navigator reports an 18 percent graduation rate and a 16 percent transfer-out rate."

ADD: "Bryant and Stratton College has 17 campuses including Online Education. College Navigator reports results at the regional level.

Regional Outcomes
ChrisKatBSC (talk) 21:46, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pulling this together, ChrisKatBSC! I agree that the information that was previously in the article is misleading if it only represents one of several campuses so I have removed it while we figure whether to update it, omit it, or replace it with something else.
 * We typically don't include cost and debt information. I think it's usually more detailed than we try to be in a general encyclopedia article. It's also information that changes often so it would require a lot of (volunteer) work on an ongoing basis to keep it up-to-date. But I'll wait for other editors to weigh in with their opinions.
 * Can you provide more detail about the graduation rate? Is that the 150% time-to-completion rate? Is it for multiple types of degrees e.g., associate and bachelor's? For what cohorts? ElKevbo (talk) 22:06, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree with, cost and debt information a lot of work to keep timely, and probably not notable enough to justify the effort, though I would defer to users more active in the area.
 * I can see from the College Scorecard site that the graduation rate is the percentage of all students that graduate within 8-years. GiovanniSidwell (talk) 17:13, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems ridiculously unlikely that the earnings number is actually being calculated for each campus. The odds of all of them coming to the exact same number to the fifth significant digit is minuscule. As such, I don't think we can treat those numbers as actually reflecting the individual campus. --Nat Gertler (talk) 19:54, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Concur with the above and marking this as declined.  Spencer T• C 21:23, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

For-profit status
An unregistered editor is editing this article on behalf of the college to remove the college's for-profit status. As explicitly noted in the article, the college is still classified as a for-profit institution by the US Department of Education. The article also explicitly notes that the college is applying to be reclassified and some organizations have already approved the request. But it's dishonest to claim that the institution is simply a non-profit while the US Department of Education still classifies as for-profit. It's especially unacceptable for someone to edit war over this, without discussion, on behalf of the subject of this article. ElKevbo (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The US Department of Education has approved the College's conversion to Not for Profit status. As you likely know, being invloved in Higher Education, IPEDS updates are processed annually, this update should not have to take a full update cycle of IPEDS. Do you honestly think that MSCHE would publish the status change prior to DoE? The DoE will validate the status of the College as will other sources. Navigator is not considered the only authoritative source. ChrisKatBSC (talk) 18:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * We can wait for sources to catch up, we have no deadline here. - MrOllie (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

You don’t understand, or care to take the time to understand MrOllie. There are sources. There is not one single authoritative source in this matter, there are many. ChrisKatBSC (talk) 20:08, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I do think it's fair to consider College Navigator an authoritative source for the information that the US Department of Education has on an institution. Just to be sure, I've sent a message to the folks who maintain the tool to specifically ask how often/when the "Type" is updated or changed in situations like this where an institution has requested a reclassification. I suspect that directory information and other information like this are updated whenever there is a need for the information to be updated, not annually like most of the other data that come from the different IPEDS surveys. If you know of an equally authoritative source published by the Department of Education, please let us know! ElKevbo (talk) 22:16, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello!
 * Chiming in here to say that the link referenced in the Wikipedia page (currently source #1) has now been updated to show Bryant & Stratton College is "not-for-profit".
 * Is now an appropriate time for the Wikipedia page to be updated?
 * Thanks! 2600:1700:5AC2:1500:80FE:C700:7D2B:5457 (talk) 21:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is! Thanks for catching this and letting us know. I've edited the article accordingly. ElKevbo (talk) 00:50, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring to add "non-profit" to lede
I'm not sure why an unregistered editor is edit warring to add "non-profit" to the lede of this article. Nearly all colleges and universities are non-profit so we usually omit that. Adding that information to the lede would like adding statements like "teaches classes," "enrolls students," and "employs faculty" to the lede - it's true but it's so trite and ubiquitous that it's unnecessary to explicitly state. We typically only note when an institution is a for-profit institution just as we would note anything else that is highly unusual and important for readers to know immediately. ElKevbo (talk) 20:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @User:ElKevbo: Your point is well taken. Thanks for explaining your rationale. I will edit the article accordingly.2A02:1210:2C5A:AE00:2C04:DD22:198A:17E1 (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks - I appreciate it! ElKevbo (talk) 21:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Good that the discussion helped to resolve the confusion. Communication is everything after all.2A02:1210:2C5A:AE00:A1E8:B8F5:989D:6E5B (talk) 06:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)