Talk:Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania

Comment
I really want them to make Bryn Mawr a township, just so the signs can say "BRYN MAWR TWP", because that means "big stupid hill". 66.92.237.111 22:00, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

We need sections about:
Why are they moving the Jaguar Dealership? What's next, Farari moves to Paoli? I miss Al E. Gators.
 * Nate (at A-Plus, used to have an eye patch)
 * The late Tom Wooten ("Wrong Way Wooten")
 * The Main Point and The Point (maybe mention Mape's)
 * The Grog v. pre-prohabition era bar called Malories
 * Dunken Doughnuts (especially 93-96)
 * The "Lionel" underpass
 * Puns
 * Marita's v. BM Pub
 * Roaches (breakfast and boilermakers)
 * Bryn Mawr Fire Company

Good times. --Knowmoore 04:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone should mention that many scenes in this movie were filmed in Bryn Mawr including the dead girl's house and the Bryn Mawr ACME: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167404/locations
 * The Sixth Sense

--Grs wiki 13:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Location, only in Montgomery County
Since Bryn Mawr is defined as a census-designated place, I checked the census website and it is located only in Montgomery County. See this map. I have clarified the text accordingly. Ruhrfisch 15:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The Bryn Mawr zip code (19010) also covers some portions of Radnor Township and Haverford Township; I assume that this is what the old text was attempting to convey. Spikebrennan 17:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's true. I don't know if this counts as original research, but my address is Bryn Mawr and I live in Delaware county.  Coemgenus 18:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This article is about the CDP, so therefore the Geobox should reflect that Bryn Mawr is only in Montco. VerruckteDan 00:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that since Wikipedia Pennsylvania articles use CDPs and not postal addresses, Bryn Mawr the CDP is only in Montogomery County. Please see the Montgomery County and Delaware County maps, which show Bryn Mawr only in Lower Merion Twp in MontCo (and which I made from Census maps). Image:Map of Montgomery County Pennsylvania With Municipal and Township Labels.png and Image:Map of Delaware County Pennsylvania With Municipal and Township Labels.png. Here is the source of the maps, if you want to check the original  I reverted to MontCo only in the Geobox. Ruhrfisch 01:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Firm agreement with Ruhrfisch here. Glad that's all settled, then.  (For the record, among the reasons _why_ CDPs make more sense than zip codes is that zip codes are geographically larger-- for example, Bryn Mawr's zip code (19010) includes, in addition to the Bryn Mawr CDP, the community of Rosemont, Pennsylvania (which in turn includes the community of Garrett Hill, Pennsylvania).  It wouldn't make any sense for the Bryn Mawr article to duplicate the Rosemont and the Garrett Hill material. Spikebrennan 01:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I put the blurbs about incorporated areas in PA and CDPs and unincorporated communities in each PA county. I have thought about adding something about postal addresses to each county article too. Any ideas? Ruhrfisch 02:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Here are the current blurbs:

Under Pennsylvania law, there are four types of incorporated municipalities: cities, boroughs, townships, and, in at most two cases, towns. and

Census-designated places are geographical areas designated by the U.S. Census Bureau for the purposes of compiling demographic data. They are not actual jurisdictions under Pennsylvania law. Other unincorporated communities, such as villages, may be listed here as well.


 * Those sound good. I think an article about a CDP is wrong-headed, since most people don't know or care how the census designates their home.  On the other hand, when we're talking about an area with undefined borders, it's difficult to write the article about that, too.  I guess CDP is the only way to go, unless anyone can suggest another way of describing the "towns" of the Main Line that, except for Narberth, are not towns or boroughs at all but simply informal places. Coemgenus 10:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks - every CDP in PA (and I think the US) as of the 2000 census has an article already. A number of other unincoprorated communities also have articles, although finding sources to prove notability is often more difficult for these. I think it would be fine to add that the mailing address for Brun Mawr extends into DelCo. The problem is finding the specifics of it - not sure the post office website has maps, just lookup. Ruhrfisch 11:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right. I tried to find some website that mentions the Delaware County portion, and came up empty.  I know it's so, but there doesn't seem to be a source I can find.  As I said, CDP makes as much sense as anything, and has the added benefit of a reliable source to back it up. Coemgenus 12:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I found reliable sources to say that "Bryn Mawr" extends into Delaware County; I am using schools' addresses to prove this. See, PA school districts ALWAYS conform to township/borough/city lines, so the schools are undeniable proof that "Bryn Mawr" addresses extend into other townships. WhisperToMe 01:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The article is about the Census Designated Place, which is defined by the US Census Bureau. It just so happens that the US Post Office also has a "Bryn Mawr" (what you found), which does not correspond exactly with the CDP. Postal addresses do not always follow county / city / borough / township boundaries (very few townships have a post office named for them). For example, Jackson Township in northern Lycoming County has a Liberty, Tioga County, Pennsylvania address, but is not part of Tioga County. A second example: Montour High School in Robinson Township, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania has a McKees Rocks mailing address, despite the fact that it is not located in McKees Rocks. It is the only high school for the Montour School District, which serves Kennedy and Robinson Townships, and the boroughs of Ingram, Pennsbury Village, and Thornburg, but not McKees Rocks. Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What I did was created a separate infobox for the mailing address. By the way, doesn't the U.S. Census have boundaries of the CDPs? WhisperToMe 19:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is given in the first comment I made in this section, here is a link to the map again . If you read the above comments, the Bryn Mawr postal address does not correspond exactly to the townships. Do you have a a detailed map of the postal address boundaries? Would you be willing to take this to Third Opinion? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I am aware that the postal boundaries do not correspond to municipal boundaries - All I mean is that the postal boundaries extend into those areas, and I wish to convey this. WhisperToMe 22:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * EDIT: I changed the sentence to "Residents of Delaware County and the two townships in Delaware County with Bryn Mawr addresses do not reside in the Bryn Mawr CDP" to explain what I mean WhisperToMe 22:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the second infobox looks bad on the page, and I'm unsure why its needed. The article is about the CDP, hence the information in the first infobox is about the CDP. The mailing address does not need its own infobox, especially one that is dominated by a complete sentence. That kind of information should just be in the text of article. VerruckteDan 01:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with VerruckteDan that the second infobox is not needed. Can you think of a single other article about a postal address on Wikipedia? Or even a single other use of a Geobox or Infobox for a postal address? We have almost no relaible info about the postal address (compare the info for the CDP - population, area, etc.). I repeat my request for a WP:3O - WhisperToMe would you agree (we ask a neutral party and agree to abide by their decision as to whether the box stays or not)? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I am fine with the page as of writing :) WhisperToMe 00:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not even sure the sentence about the area generally referred to as Bryn Mawr is necessary in this article. Do the portions of Haverford, Lower Merion, and Radnor with Bryn Maw mailing addresses have this address for any historical reason?  The fact that the mailing address name Bryn Mawr is used over a variety of municipalities is hardly unique or even notable.  To me, it seems more like trivia.  At best, the statement should be lower in the article, as it is not one of the key elements of the CDP, so it should not be taking such a prominent place in the opening paragraph.  VerruckteDan 01:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is worth mentioning in the article, if for no other reason that if it is not in, every other anon IP will try to add it or "correct" the article. Agree it does not have to be as high up as it is now. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

For an alternative take on this, here's a quote from the Media, Pennsylvania article: (the article is about the municipality of Media Boro, but the following text from the article is intended to convey that the Media zip code also covers other areas. I quote: Since the borough of Media is only 0.8 sq mi and the "Media zip code" 19063 covers a much larger area, the geographic term "Media" is often used in a sense that includes not only the borough of Media, but other contiguous areas that are part of other municipalities but that share the zipcode. These include the entire Upper Providence Township, and in Nether Providence Township, the neighborhoods of South Media, Bowling Green, Pine Ridge, most of Middletown Township including the entire Elwyn, Bortandale, Riddlewood, Lima, Glen Riddle, & Lenni neighborhoods. Parts of Rose Valley Borough, Chester Heights Borough, Marple Township and Aston Township are sometimes included. Spikebrennan 17:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The entry for Wayne, Pennsylvania has a similar passage. It's kind of colloquial, but certainly accurate: While it's easy to put your finger on a map at the intersection of Lancaster & Wayne Avenues (40° 02' 38"N, 75° 23' 16"W) in northern Delaware County, Pennsylvania, USA, and proclaim the center of Wayne; it's harder to figure out where "Wayne" ends. Go a mile or five in any direction on that map and you'll see town names like Strafford, St. Davids, and Chesterbrook on the map, but ask a resident there what their address is and you'll likely hear them say Wayne. This phenomenon is due to the US Post Office in Wayne. The Wayne PO's 19087 Zip code spans a large, oddly shaped, area which includes parts of Delаware, Montgomery and Chester Counties. But ask who they pay taxes to, none of them will say Wayne. Then the answers will be Radnor, Upper Merion and Tredyffrin Townships. Coemgenus 21:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The wording in the Media article is the best of the 3 examples, though it could probably be tightened up a bit in order to be more clear and concise. And this information should probably be placed into the Geography section as on the Wayne article. VerruckteDan 22:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I made the changes suggested here (I am not familiar with the area, so please correct any errors). I would like to get rid of the second infobox (I note neither example given above has a second infobox) but would prefer to base the decision to keep or remove the zip code box on consensus or a third opinion or RFC. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I edited your change. I think this is now going in the right direction (and, again, I agree with deleting the second infobox).  Thanks also for directing my attention to the horribly-written counterpart section in the Wayne article, which I have now rewritten. Spikebrennan 03:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

So, it's 2019, and I am dealing with possible uninformed edits confusing the CDP for the wider area with "Bryn Mawr, PA" postal addresses. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:27, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Bryn Mawr CDP map: https://www2.census.gov/geo/maps/dc10map/GUBlock/st42_pa/place/p4209728_bryn_mawr/DC10BLK_P4209728_001.pdf
 * Lower Merion Township map: https://www.lowermerion.org/home/showdocument?id=2152 and https://www.lowermerion.org/home/showdocument?id=1773 // CDP boundaries entirely match
 * Radnor Township map: https://www.radnor.com/DocumentCenter/View/1221/Township-Map-PDF // CDP boundaries do not match
 * Haverford Township map: http://www.haverfordtownship.org/egov/documents/1475264416_00493.pdf // CDP boundaries do not match

Bryn Mawr Fire CO.
On December 21, 1903, a certificate of Incorporation of the Bryn Mawr Fire Company was presented in the Court of Common Pleas for Montgomery County. President Judge, Aaron S. Swartz ordered and decreed that this Charter was approved and that upon the recording of it, together with its endorsements and the order, in the Office of the Recorder of Deeds for Montgomery County, the subscribers and their associates would thenceforth be a Corporation. On June 22, 1903, William H. Ramsey, P.A. Hart and I. Warner Arthur, three of the subscribers to the Certificate of Incorporation, appeared before Edward W. Miller, a Notary Public, and acknowledged the Certificate of Incorporation of the Bryn Mawr Fire Company to be their act and deed.

On February 2, 1904, the Charter, its endorsements, and the order handed down by Judge Swartz, were recorded in the office for the Recording of Deeds and the Bryn Mawr Fire Company was a Corporation. On the Charter were the names of subscribers amounting to the sum of 32. And in this group were some men of great wealth and most of the important men of Bryn Mawr, Haverford and Rosemont of one half century ago. John H. Converse, of Rosemont, was the first president. He was an official in the Baldwin Locomotive Works. Dr. William C. Powell, physician to the countryside, whose son is now a local doctor, was vice president of the new fire company. Alba B. Johnson and Samuel M. Vauclain, two associates of Converse in the Baldwin Locomotive Works were among the incorporators. Vauclain continued for many years after that as consulting engineer for the fire company, and also, later on became the President of Baldwin Locomotive Works. Clarkson Clothier, of Strawbridge and Clothier, was one of the original members, as was Walter Lippincott of the Philadelphia publishing firm. I. Warner Arthur was another member. He managed to take the time for it when he was not busy running the Bryn Mawr Ice Company, his confectioner and baker business, and his wheelwright shop. He also found time to trade in real estate and wound up his career as Postmaster of Bryn Mawr.

There was also Joseph J. Derham, the carriage builder, who founded the body works in Rosemont that have established a world renowned reputation for their custom made automobiles. Among their clientele have been such dignitaries as the Pope and Joseph Stalin. Another member was John S. Clarke, who with his brother Louis S. Clarke, founded the Autocar Company in Ardmore. Thus it was fairly easy to see how the Bryn Mawr Fire Company came to be nicknamed the "Millionaire Fire Company." Some of the other members not mentioned, although not as well off financially, were nevertheless all solid citizens and the backbone of the community. As they grew old and died, sons and other volunteers filled their places. In this manner they have perpetuated for the last fifty years.

In the colorful days when volunteer fire companies were in their infancy, there was much rivalry among the men of the different companies. When the Bryn Mawr Fire Company began to operate in 1904, there were three other companies in operation in the township; Merion, Narberth and Union of Bala-Cynwyd. They met soon after and divided the area into four sections. The first fire engine that the new company acquired was a No. 4 Metropolitan steam fire engine, which was delivered in 1904. It was kept in the coach house on the estate of Samuel Vauclain until a one-story frame building was erected next to where the fire house is now and where the Bryn Mawr Hardware Store is now situated. Soon after, a new Holloway chemical engine carrying 400 feet of chemical hose, 1,000 feet of the highest standard quality hose, ladders and hand extinguishers was purchased. Besides supplying the first home for the engine, Samuel Vauclain also contributed a makeshift fire-gong. Since he was president of the Baldwin Locomotive Works, he managed to get a locomotive tire, which was suspended, outside of the firehouse. Jackson Epright, the blacksmith, rigged up a big sledge hammer which operated by tugging a rope, and when the alarm was sounded, its loud peal could be heard all over the countryside.

Each year, beginning in 1903, a Fireman's Fair and Bazaar was held to raise funds. Their aim was $10,000 for capital expenditures and $2,500 annually for maintenance. A hall was hired and there was music, lemonade and entertainment. They had prizes, a shooting gallery, a wheel of fortune and other extracts from Coney Island. At one of these fairs, the net profit was usually around $2,000. They held picnics in the summer, the Bryn Mawr Brass Band which originated way back in 1869, gave concerts and there were baseball games. Even with all these money-raising schemes, $10,000 was due on a first mortgage and $4,300 on a second mortgage when the building was dedicated in May 1906. Vauclain, Johnson, Converse, Clarkson Clothier or any of the other charter members could have easily taken care of the finances, but that was not the idea. Everybody in the area pitched in and helped. One group got together and purchased a bell from the old Humane Fire Company of Philadelphia, which weighed 956 pounds. It was hung in the tower. The women baked cakes and sold raffle tickets. Another group raised the horse fund of $810. For the first year they had rented their horses from John Moore's livery stable on Merion Avenue, or from the Bryn Mawr Ice Company.

Then the fire company bought its own horses. The first two were a gray pair named Dick and Is, after Dick Fogarty, who was a dealer in livestock, and giant Israel H. Supplee, the first fire chief, who was reported to have been over six and one-half feet tall. Everyone was pitching in and doing all that they could for the cause. Harry Kerr was no exception. He was foreman of the paint shop at J.J. Durham's carriage works. As a voluntary contribution, he offered to repaint the steamer and the chemical wagon without charge. One day a committee made up of charter members called on Kerr at the carriage works just as he was mixing a batch of green paint to be used on one of the coaches. They all admired this particular shade and it was suggested that the engines be painted that color. Right then and there it was agreed upon and to this day the engines are green, along with gold for the lettering and the striping. After they had their own horses, they arranged the equipment for the fastest possible takeoff. Three sets of harnesses were kept suspended above the two poles of the steamer and two sets above the one pole of the chemical wagon. When the alarm was sounded, the horses trotted from their stalls to their respective places, the sets of harnesses were dropped over their heads and put on them securely, the steamer boiler was fired and the engines were ready to leave.

When automotive engines first came into being but it was still more practical to use the old standby - the horse. The motorized engines had to be hand-cranked and were slow to start. They often broke down on the way to fires too. Horses, however, were quick to respond to the alarm, quick to fall into place to be hitched and made good time on the roads that were not paved. There was also a bond of friendship between the horses and the firemen. Even as early as 1904, there were fire hydrants, though not many. Thus, the need for the chemical wagon was recognizable, since many of the houses were not near a hydrant or any other water supply. The first test for the Metropolitan steam engine after its purchase was on January 16, 1904, at Montgomery Avenue and Roberts Road. In seven minutes, the pumper had reached the necessary 230 pounds of pressure needed to produce steam. The steamer got its real first test at a fire in Ardmore, when flames spread through a handsome three-story house. At the time, the Merion Fire Company was all attired in tails and silk hats at a banquet. When they arrived at the scene, it was plain to see that little could be done to save the place. They phoned to Bryn Mawr for help. When the Bryn Mawr Fire Company arrived the building was lit like a torch and obviously hopeless to be saved. However, the firemen from Bryn Mawr did help save the surrounding houses of the neighborhood, which were in some danger of being ignited by flying embers. That was the first time that Ardmore and Bryn Mawr worked together at a fire, and to this day they are still doing it when one occurs in the building district.

Though Bryn Mawr and Merion worked together at the scene of fires, it was a different story when it came to baseball. In the same year in which the Bryn Mawr Fire Company was formed, the Main Line Baseball League was organized. Bryn Mawr got together a team and entered it in the league and won 18 games while losing four in 1905. The following year they won 20 and lost nine. It was explained that this was due to sore arms and poor umpiring. They bounced back in the next two years and won the championship both times. The Merion Fire Company did not have its own team, but a number of them played for the Ardmore team. They rivalry was so terrific between these two teams that practically the whole Lower Merion police force had to patrol the games. One time as a gesture of good sportsmanship, Ardmore invited the Bryn Mawr team to be their dinner guests following the game. However, by the time the game was over, the men from Ardmore were so bitter that they told the Bryn Mawr firemen to go buy their own meal. Ardmore charged that Bryn Mawr stole players and bribed the umpires. Bryn Mawr, in turn, said that Ardmore was throwing games and, with pretty good reason, accused them of being soreheads. The betting produced most of the bitterness. Fans would borrow, embezzle and risk everything they had on the outcome of these games. However, Ardmore and Bryn Mawr had been rivals long before baseball was even heard of. It had been discovered when these towns were named that they both meant, "high moor." Bryn Mawr won this argument too, when they proved that the highest point in Ardmore was six feet lower than the highest of Bryn Mawr. As stated before, they did not get along at times, but all was harmonious at the scene of fires.

The second time both companies responded was in May of the same year as their first time. The call came late at night and the Ardmore firemen was unable to get their horses. So a dozen of the firemen grabbed the pole of the chemical wagon and started to pull it in the direction of Haverford where the fire was. Fortunately, a man came along with a car and towed them to Haverford. Soon after the Bryn Mawr firemen arrived and after working for hours, the blaze was finally gotten under control. But not until the amount of damage totaled the sum of $15,000. Among the notable fires that occurred was one, which happened when a heavily loaded freight train crashed into another at Roberts Road in March 1905. A coal stove in the caboose of the latter started a fire and soon the whole wreck was a blazing inferno. Bryn Mawr saved the rest of the cars. Last year, on May 18, a train wreck occurred at practically this same spot when the Red Arrow Flyer struck the 19-car Philadelphia Night Express, which was from Detroit bound to New York. Though there was just a small amount if fire, caused by severed electric wires, the firemen pitched in and helped extricate the injured and remove the bodies of the dead. The toll was 123 injured, and nine dead.

In January 1906, together with the fire fighters of West Conshohocken, the Bryn Mawr responded to a call at the residence of Otis Skinner, famous actor, who lived on Spring Mill Road. His daughter, Cornelius, is now also well known. One month after this, they joined Wayne's fire company in fighting a fire, which demolished the Suburban Publishing Company's plant in Wayne. The loss amounted to $20,660. Six newspapers had to find other methods of printing their matter; the Bryn Mawr Record, Overbrook Argus, Downingtown Archive, Berwyn Herald, and Wayne Times.

CREDIT TO BMFC Web Site Administrator —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.4.201 (talk) 01:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

pronounciation
its not pronounced brin-mar, mawr is pronounced to rhyme with now with a rolling r at the end 176.24.201.148 (talk) 20:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Translation of "Bryn Mawr"
"Big Hill" is certainly an accurate dictionary translation of Bryn Mawr. On the other hand "bryn," which means "hill," has the connotation of "property of." You could translate my grandparents' Bryn Gwillim as "Bill's Hill," but really it means "William's House." It seems to me the likely original meaning of Bryn Mawr was "House of Mary." david.lloydjones@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidLJ (talk • contribs)


 * As a native Welsh speaker from the area of the original Bryn Mawr (near Dolgellau) I'm rather sceptical of your claim about that connotation, and it's even odder to translate "mawr" as Mary. In any case, unless you can come up with a very reliable source for your claim, there's no cause to make a change to the article. Incidentally, it would be much better if you signed your posts by simply typing four tildes. Providing your email address is, on the one hand, providing too much information (you don't want an inbox full of spam) and, on the other hand, providing too little. Other users want to be able to find your User Page, your Talk Page, and your list of contributions, as well as have an accurate time and date stamp for your posts. All the best, garik (talk) 15:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Naming of the town
So railroad agent Wilson named it for the Welsh estate of this colonial Quaker. Why? Because it was in the old Welsh Tract? Some account of the thinking here would improve the article. 2A00:23C7:E284:CF00:F1DF:B03D:BCB0:474D (talk) 17:07, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

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Confusing?
“including Radnor Township and Haverford Township in Delaware County.” — including would mean all of. Is a “parts of” missing before Radnor (and meant to cover both?) ELSchissel (talk) 23:32, 21 January 2023 (UTC) ELSchissel (talk) 23:32, 21 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I see what you are saying. Perhaps this would be better? "There are also areas in Radnor Township and Haverford Township not in the official census-designated place but which have Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania postal addresses." Also, those townships don't need to be wikilinked since they are right above. Shrikesong (talk) 05:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation written wrong
Pronunciation of Bryn Mawr has been given in both IPA and re-spelling forms, but there's no way to make those two versions agree. (As a note to those who don't normally use it, the IPA given here can only be pronounced "brin mahr".) It's impossible to figure out how to pronounce "mowr" - it could rhyme (approximately) with "rower" or with "power". Pronunciations shouldn't be given if people could say your pronunciation guide in two or three ways, because that's worse than nothing.

I suggest two things: First, get rid of the spelling pronunciation, because it can't be fixed. Second, check if "brin mahr" is right or wrong, and fix the IPA if necessary. TooManyFingers (talk) 16:42, 16 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I removed the spelling pronunciation. It appeared to be an attempt at showing a correct pronunciation in Welsh, which is probably not how Americans say it.
 * Americans: does "Mawr" rhyme with "tar"? Or does it rhyme with "tower"? TooManyFingers (talk) 03:15, 2 June 2023 (UTC)