Talk:Bucha massacre

Redaction
With apologies to all who responded to the IP's accusations, I've redacted the thread concerning Lyudmyla Denisova as a BLP violation. From my reading of sources, including the Newsweek article cited by the IP, the issues surrounding Denisova have to do with her handling and emphasis of certain atrocities along with criticism of her administration of reporting and evacuation, and not what the IP alleges are fabrications. I've blocked the IP with no talkpage access, since they've repeated the defamation on their talkpage. A reminder - editors are expected to adhere to BLP policies everywhere.  Acroterion   (talk)   23:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Denisova is significant because of the bald admission of exaggeration of fake atrocity. She was fired for it only after being caught.  That's significant in context of this article as it shows propaganda practices. As the article deals up front with some of those by Russia (bald denials without details, using a few dubious cases to dismiss all charges etc) it is fair to deal with contemporary Ukraine methods of propaganda at about the same priority. 156.34.165.234 (talk) 22:06, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Maybe, but the IP was making frank accusations without any support, which violated BLP. And two wrings don't make a right, or provide a reason to ignore Wikipedia policy.  Acroterion   (talk)   22:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Disputed Perpetrators
There is credible evidence that can be used to dispute the massacre's attribution via video evidence from: https://twitter.com/p8CntcBCrbZpMyB/status/1511022589354905605 which contains extremely damming evidence of possible ukrainian responsiblity in the massacre of bucha, so rushing to say russia committed the war crimes while the video evidence given proves otherwise makes the wikipedia entry completely uncreditable and spreading a narrative BarakHussan (talk) 16:23, 21 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Bucha brighened.jpg A brightened image of one of the massacre image shows the corpse on the left is a russian aligned memeber BarakHussan (talk) 16:37, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Bucha armband.png highlighted image of dead corpses with armbands BarakHussan (talk) 16:43, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * More Bucha Images.jpg Even More Bucha Images.jpg Even more More Bucha Images.jpg
 * More photos including russian rations: see link for image: https://www.amazon.ca/RUSSIAN-Daily-Ration-Military-06-2020/dp/B07SCKP2T7 BarakHussan (talk) 16:48, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.stopfake.org/en/fake-mass-civilian-casualties-in-kyiv-region-staged/
 * There are multiple sources which deny the "white armband" claim. I'd recommend you stop defending a quite obvious massacre... MarkusDorazio (talk) 03:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Changes to the article need citations to reliable sources. Anti-Ukrainian twitter accounts do not qualify.See WP:VERIFY. —Michael Z. 18:56, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Literally your own sources (https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-what-happened-in-bucha-ukraine-and-was-it-genocide-7854561/ and https://web.archive.org/web/20220404065521/https://indianexpress.com/article/world/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-massacre-city-strewn-with-bodies-7851645/) are "because someone said so" or "source trust me bro" I think actual analysis of photos and videos supercedes that. Antiseptic39 (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean, if the analysis came from a reliable source, maybe. But analysis by random people on the internet or by Wikipedia editors would not qualify for inclusion at all. AntiDionysius  ( talk ) 20:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but I'm not saying one viewpoint is fact and one viewpoint is false. I believe one way ,but that's just my opinion which is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.  My point was that the sources this article uses are less reliable than some random Twitter user.  At least, the twitter user did some analysis of the photos and explained his case.  This is not so with the two sources I listed.  They rely on eye witness testimony, at best, and which is notoriously unreliable.  Consider that at the same time this happened there were peace negotiations going on, and an agreement was hammered out.  It failed solely because of the narrative given in this article.  I think the claims laid out in this article require more than just notoriously unreliable eye witness testimony.  Especially since it's highly likely the eye witnesses were Ukrainian partisans, and not neutral observers. Antiseptic39 (talk) 02:52, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) WP:NOTFORUM, 2) WP:RS, and 3) WP:SPA
 * Nicodene (talk) 19:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Alas, this is the epistemic problem with Wikipedia - if all the Western reliable sources are uncritically biased towards pro-Ukraine (which they are), how can genuine neutrality be achieved? 2A00:23C8:6FD7:C801:E8DB:451F:865C:C6ED (talk) 15:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No, it is a problem with manipulated minds that in presence of a reliable source do not want to acknowledge the facts. And therefore their version of a neutrality is just a gateway to disinformation. Straw man fallacy is used. YBSOne (talk) 18:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

“Context” section
Per discussions of the page on the Hamas-Israel war, WP is obligated to include a “context” section which indicates the major historical and social factors which explain the atrocity discussed. It is imperative, following this precedent, that a dedicated section titled “Context of NATO expansion, legacy of WWII, and conditions in the Russian army,” in order to give the reader insight into the story and humanity of Bucha perpetrators. Surely they did not act in a vacuum, but were compelled to commit atrocities because of their impoverished and hopeless upbringing, coupled with the stratospheric losses in WWII and the history of Ukrainian collaboration in producing those losses, which made them angry at Ukrainian women and children, just as Hamas is angry at Israeli women, children, and infants. This section must be created immediately, with Russian scholars and politicians cited, in order to mirror the Israel-Hamas article. 32.221.36.119 (talk) 14:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Reports say Russia systematically commits atrocity crimes. —Michael Z. 22:49, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The worst part of the request above is the blatant attempt at victim-blaming. In fact 7 million Ukrainians fought for the USSR in WWII, and several hundred thousand Russians collaborated with the Nazis. —Michael Z. 23:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If you’re going to get into nazi collaboration it should probably be noted that the overwhelming majority of Russian collaborators were recruited from POWs while most Ukrainian collaborators were free volunteers. This info is readily available on this website itself. 2603:7000:B900:36EA:1811:C5C0:75D:45F9 (talk) 13:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I’m not, but most Ukrainians who fought for a free Ukraine, whether in German foreign legions or the UPA, had already experienced life under both invading régimes and had a good idea of what Moscow rule represented for Ukraine, both historically and immediately. Bucha’s just a reminder that today’s Russian régime practices a variation of the same colonialism and genocide, while its propaganda makes direct reference to colonial themes from the Middle Ages, the imperial period, and the Second World War. There’s your context. —Michael Z. 19:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If you can find reliable sources that link the actions of the Russians in Bucha to a historical context, you are free to write such a section. Nicodene (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I thinkt that the comment by 32.221.36.119 was meant as a cynical remark on the Hamas-Israel war, not as a serious comment. A context section could nevertheless be useful. While the nature of the Russian war crimes pales in comparison to the barbarism of Hamas, they are systematic and cause a lot more victims. It is too early to tell, but Bucha seems to be kind of accidental, and indeed caused by a context, not by specific orders from higher up.
 * The context would then be something like: Russian state media continuously portraying Ukrainians as facsists; an army that is sent to war without mental preparation or even being told that it was at war; Panic when it faces unexpected resistance; The brutal culture inside the Russian army; General disrespect or even lack of knowledge of the rules of war; A feeling that one can act with impunity, etc. etc.Grieg2 (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * All systematic, not “accidental.” Russian security and military forces were ordered to use torture and murder against “Nazis,” meaning self-identifying Ukrainians among the “Little Russians” in Ukraine. They were merely not told that that described practically everyone in the nation they were sent to destroy and turn into “Russia.” They didn’t "panic,” they just continued to follow orders. The same systematic atrocities were committed in Kharkiv oblast, right-bank Kherson oblast, and everywhere else under Russian occupation. Anyway, cite reliable sources instead of offering WP:OR analysis and apologism, per WP:NOTCHAT. —Michael Z. 19:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, as I said, the Russian war crimes are systematic, i.e. all over Ukraine, but also in Syria etc. So it would be useful to create a context section. If there were general, but vague orders like "to use torture and murder against Nazis”, these would explain the events in Bucha. If you know about such orders, please add them to the page. They might point to a premeditated scheme of the Russian leadership to make the troops commit war crimes without giving them explicit orders. This is kind of smart if you do not want to end up in The Hague.Grieg2 (talk) 19:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Orders are rarely published, but there is a lot of evidence of systematic torture and murder cited in investigations and reports by Ukrainian law enforcement, independent organizations, experts, and the UN’s human-rights agencies: kill lists, consistent and pervasive establishment of Russian torture chambers, victims’ testimony, physical evidence from mass graves, consistent denial, refusal to investigate, and open announcements by Russia (like the open admission of the forcible deportation of hundreds of thousands of children), statements demonizing and dehumanizing Ukrainians and inciting genocide by Russia, &c. Indeed we should ensure they are included. —Michael Z. 16:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
 * it is absurd to report the Bucha killings as proven while Russia still cannot obtain any evidence on the person's killed from Ukraine. It's a scam and Wikipedia is shaming it's reputation by accepting this unverified narrative as the truth. For a start, release the names if all the person's killed. 60.241.101.37 (talk) 05:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Fix a word
An "S" needs to be added on the word "year" 69.142.86.187 (talk) 16:36, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Gonzalo Lira
Hi, I wanted to add the Bucha Massacre page that names such as Gonzalo Lira had indicated that the killings in Bucha resemble a false flag ops (He was later on jailed and eventually died/killed while in prison in Ukraine). I have provided a link, but the provided link is found unreliable by a user and reverted within seconds of my edit. Therefore I am instructed by him to consult here to get his permission for the edit (The link can be found in the edit history section). So here I am at your service... Ogün Eratalay message  09:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, you need a reliable source, and it should be really reliable for this exceptional claim. See WP:FRINGE. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:13, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Reliable source for what? That Gonzalo Lira claimed that the incident was a false flag operation? Or what? Since you are the expert of a reliable source, what do you think of Newsweek, is it reliable enough? (https://www.newsweek.com/who-gonzalo-lira-pro-putin-american-expat-dies-ukrainian-jail-1860496) Ogün Eratalay  message  11:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ... and that his views are notable to include. See WP:NEWSWEEK. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:28, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I suggest it is reliable enough as Newsweek's claim of Gonzo Lira has some context by NBC https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/russian-propaganda-efforts-aided-kremlin-content-creators-research-fin-rcna32343 BarakHussan (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There is already a section for this - see #Russian response and denial and #Social media comments . I don't see this particular propaganda episode as notable enough. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * What you would need is a reliable source covering the Bucha massacre that mentions this 'Gonzalo Lira' in connection with it. Nicodene (talk) 20:29, 18 June 2024 (UTC)