Talk:Buck Angel/Archive 1

Before/after
I think this article would benefit from a photo of Buck as as a woman, but the only ones I've seen were the ones Howard held up to the camera on hsi show, which wouldn't really be suitable for here. Does anyone know a better source? Ace of Sevens 10:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I found one here: (removed) but I don't know much about fair use and all of that. Google image search yielded a couple of results.Julieisthebest 20:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Why do you want to know his real name? WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? MAYBE YOU MEAN HIS REAL BIRTH NAME? That is in many of his interviews. He was born with a female name just like any transsexual basically. But to put his legal name on here really is not of any purpose is it? There are also many pictures on his website to look at.


 * I have removed the link to the pre-transition image, in accordance with []. Very few transgender people like to have pre-transition images publicly disseminated (certainly none of those with whom I am acquainted), and as such, it is an unnecessary invasion of privacy. Rhialto 17:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you pick A, or B? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.29.180 (talk) 18:47, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

For the photo as a woman, go to the German Wikipedia ->Weblinks. I hope the Link will not be removed there.--Netpi (talk) 05:29, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Real Name
I removed Buck's real name at the request of the subject, Buck, who contacted me directly about it. Please contact me by E-mail at marshall@marshallastor.com so that I can explain the situation as Buck has explained it to me. I believe that the removal of his real name is not in conflict with policy under the circumstances. Glowimperial 22:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Buck Angel's real name is a matter of legal record per Title 18, section 2257. Therefore this information is public record and should remain in the article. If Buck has an issue with that he should bring it up with the Wikimedia office. Or Buck can directly email the office at info-en-q@wikimedia.org  ALKIVAR &trade; &#x2622; 00:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Real Name Part II
The removal of Buck's real name has been vetted by the Wikimedia office - don't re-enter it. If you'd like to re-enter it, contact Wikimedia and get their approval before putting it back in - it will be removed, otherwise. Glowimperial 21:08, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, by "real name" are you referring to his female birthname (which, understandably, shouldn't be in the article) or his current male legal name (which might be considered appropriate)? Queerwiki 22:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

We're talking about both his birthname and any other legal name, outside of "Buck Angel." In cases like this, involving a living performer in the adult industry, there's precedent to redact anything other than their professional name, upon the performer's request. Buck has made such a request. Glowimperial (talk) 23:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Reference
Here's a reference discussing BA:

WLU 11:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

In light of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Wachowski#_note-3, I'm removing the Wachowski mention in the Buck Angel article. Juno Loire 06:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Comparing MTF and FTM results
Hehe. Well, there is a sample of someone citing sources that the sky is blue.

In Sex reassignment surgery, it says 'Chest (or "top") surgery is often the only surgical procedure female-to-male transsexuals choose to undergo, as GRS techniques for transmen are still rather unrefined and typically produce genitalia of compromised aesthetic and functional quality.' No source specified, but then the statement is completely uncontroversial. // habj (talk) 14:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You could also check the article about phalloplasty, one of the two surgical methods available, that initially clearly states this type of surgery is largely cosmetic. As it states in the end of that article, the alternative method metoidioplasty results in a very small penis. // habj (talk) 15:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, alright. Not being very knowledgeable about such things, it struck me as an unsubstantiated opinion. My only remaining gripe with the statements about MTF and FTM surgeries is that, the way they're worded, comes off as a WP:COATRACK-type statement about the quality of sexual reassignment surgeries and not a statement about the subject. That is to say, I think it ought to be worded as a "Buck has elected not to undergo phalloplasty because of (blank)". &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 20:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Birthdate of Buck Angel
This referece sayes (* June 5, 1972 in Yucatan, Mexico) as Buck Angels birthdate but User:Mendaliv does not like the reference and the info and keeps deleting it. Hope this information in the talk will stay. --Netpi (talk) 05:40, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if I haven't been very clear, but forum postings and similar are generally not considered to be reliable sources. Buck Angel's user profile suffers from that problem. I shouldn't need to mention the WP:BLP issue here either. Buck has already asked that his/her name be permanently omitted from this article (see earlier posts), thus we should be damn careful about sourcing his/her biographical information. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 07:00, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And furthermore, that source doesn't state his/her birthplace as Yucatan. Looking at other sources for this article (i.e., the interview), Yucatan is Buck's current location, probably not his/her birthplace. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 07:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the answer. What can we do at the moment? Nothing, just wait for somebody to know better with a reliable reference. --Netpi (talk) 09:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Mm, well one thing you can do is contact Buck and ask if he'll post something on his blog/bio to verify his birthdate. That may pass the verifiability threshold. I can poke around in a couple places too, but I doubt I'll find anything. And in any case, Buck may come back and say that he doesn't want his birthdate in the Wikipedia article any more than he wants his birth name in it. Seeing as it's a BLP issue, he can probably reasonably request the omission of such details. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 19:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Sources for expansion
In line with what I just told Netpi above, I'm digging through news and other publications to try and find more info on Buck Angel. Below is a list of the various stuff I've found with citation templates for easy inclusion.


 * BME has a nice, long piece on Buck discussing his interview on Howard Stern and has bits and pieces forming a loose biography. It verifies his current residence as being Mérida in Yucatán and his wife as Elayne Angel. A few interesting factoids are that Buck underwent breast reduction surgery "15 years ago" (from July 2008, so probably sometime in 1993) from a surgeon at UCLA who specializes in men with gynecomastia. There's also a long section on his battle with drug addiction. Buck has apparently trademarked the title "The Man With a Pussy". He apparently has also patched up his relationship with his family.
 * The Village Voice has piece which briefly mentions Buck, but mostly discusses the LGBT movement. He apparently headlined something called the "Black Party" in 2006, which is a "mega dance-and-flesh fest held every March at Roseland"- I really don't understand what exactly it's supposed to be.
 * Time Out has a short article on Buck. In it, Buck goes into his reasoning for why he doesn't get phalloplasty, and it does go along mostly with what's currently in the article- it's way too expensive and the results are less than stellar.
 * An article in The Mirror mentions that Buck used to be married to Ilsa Strix.

More to come as I dig through LexisNexis. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 19:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Above, there's a Rolling Stone article mentioned about Larry Wachowski that also mentions the Ilsa Strix connection. It's a bit more detailed though, and says that they were married in 1998 and divorced in 2001 as a direct result of an affair between Strix and Wachowski.
 * habj should be happy; in an interview with The Village Voice, Buck is directly quoted as saying that FTM sexual reassignment surgery isn't as advanced as MTF. The same article mentions his support of/participation in a "leather invasion" at the Museum of Modern Art.
 * A half-sentence mention in LA Weekly verifying that Buck had worked as a model as a female.

That's about all for LexisNexis. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 20:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

And as for finding his DoB anywhere in a reliable source, I've had no luck yet. The only other source than the netpond forum profile is a bebo profile that says 1972, but that's not really a good source either. I'm thinking Buck himself is going to be the only source, and that being if he's OK with it. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 20:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

With regard to his D.O.B. Try checking out his Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/#!/buckangel?sk=info which clearly states Born on 05 June 1972. 81.174.244.208 (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The following website has a reputable-looking Australian interview which lists him as being born in California and growing up with the name Susan. http://www.samesame.com.au/features/4235/Buck-Angel-Self-Made-Man.htm Those seem like important things for someone who knows more about wikipedia than I do to add. 67.9.29.91 (talk) 01:24, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

He or she?

 * He has not undergone a phalloplasty and advertises himself as a "real man with a real pussy".

No penis - therefore, Buck Angel is a woman, no matter how manly she looks. Please rewrite the article accordingly. --Stormwatch (talk) 06:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Per MOS:IDENTITY, no. Angel says he is a man, thus he is called "he". I see no reason to break with style guidelines here. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 06:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I vote for changing the manual. -- Stormwatch (talk) 07:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In that case, I'd suggest you propose the change at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style and seek wider consensus than you'll find at this one article. :-) &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 09:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised people are so weird about this. When in doubt, you can always contact any of a number of physicians, researchers, psychologists, epidemiologists, etc.  If a man loses his penis, he is not suddenly a woman -- there is more to the equation than this ideal penis fixation.  Also, plenty of guys have a micropenis condition where their penis is (sadly) smaller than Buck Angel's clit. Manual of style prevails here.  98.225.230.65 (talk) 23:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * But this is not a case of a man losing his penis.This is a woman with a vagina and a womb who had an operation to remove her breasts, and took hormones to grow a beard and look like a man, so by definition she is a woman surely?80.0.57.250 (talk) 00:34, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Short answer: No, as has already been explained. -- megA (talk) 15:37, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Buck is and always will be a woman and female both biologically and genetically, no matter how many hormones she takes and how much elective cosmetic surgery she gets on her body or her vagina she'll still be female the way she was born. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.47.133 (talk • contribs) 00:52, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

To preface, I heartily disagree with the MOS regarding trans people, since it favors sentiment over science. I'm not even talking about genitalia, but X & Y chromosomes, which science cannot yet manipulate. Nonetheless, I will of course abide by the MOS in hopes that it changes someday. In the earlier years section, surely "he lived for years as a female" would be more accurate as "he was a female for years". But in that case, it's a contradiction-in-terms, and would make more sense as "she was a female for years". I realize that the MOS specifies This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. But then again it also says immediately afterwards Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage. Ideally, I'd say the English language needs a new set of pronouns for trans people, ambiguous people, and gender-neutral people. But that's a bit beyond our scope here. Klopek007 (talk) 05:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

you try being a transsexual for a while, and then maybe you'll get off your high horse. your argument about genetics and "science" is completely bogus. you neglect intersex people and those with congenital mutations of the genitals. what about them? does the fact that someone can be born 46XXY and have both reproductive organs make them a woman, man or freak? is it the junk that's in our pants that bothers you? because if that's the problem, then i think you need to reexamine your own priorities. or maybe you're just scared that a strong masculine person can be proud of their vagina, or vice-versa. people and their gender identities boil down to much more than their genitals. the fact of the matter is that trans people (and gay people as well to a certain extent, although homosexuality is more "mainstream") make straight-identified people uncomfortable and confused. which would be fine, we of the queer community are very accepting and willing to explain, but those of you who are straight are constantly hiding your heads in the sand as opposed to wanting to be educated. if that's your MO, great, hide your head in the sand. but honestly, those of us who are trans have been through enough (want a list? here we go: being bullied in school, at home, the world at large, being subjects of sexual and physical abuse, being forced leave home, not being hired for certain jobs, the list goes on) that we would just like our rights and to not be subjected to ignorance and cruelty. to the extent that i understand internet trolls and human beings, i know that my saying all of this will probably not dent your shield of insecurity and misinformation. but as someone who knows this part of the world very well, i feel it is in my and my community's best interest to present our perspective. we will not be trampled by ignorance, our voices will be heard, we are not second-class citizens, we are Americans just like you.

Only in the world?
Right now, the first line of the article is: "He is believed to be the first, possibly only, and arguably the most well-known trans man ( FTM ) in the world." This is definitely not true. Trans_man Is it supposed to say possibly the only FTM porn star in the world? Because as it is right now it's very confusing. Yalith (talk) 01:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, while I have no knowledge of the subject I don't think that statement should stand unsourced. - Schrandit (talk) 14:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This is phrased weirdly. Okay, we know that hundreds of thousands of transitioned trans guys exist in the world, so he's not the only one (by a long shot).  He was actually not the first FTM porn star, as he admits on his website.  He actually distributes older porn videos that feature FTMs (I'd link but not sure it's allowed).  So both parts of this are factually inaccurate, he might be one of the most well-known currently but he wasn't the first anything. 98.225.230.65 (talk) 23:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Amazing body transformation
May be we should include some info on his amazing body transformation, as it is like an elephant-in-the-room for people specifically interested in how he did it. Did he had his breasts surgically removed? Can you grow that beard just by taking hormones? Etc. --181.164.97.184 (talk) 06:56, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a topic more appropriate to an article about female-to-male transition in general, rather than one about this person. Although (as a porn performer) he has invited some level of interest in it, a person's anatomy – especially their genitalia – is a privacy-invading subject. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:03, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Birthdate and real name of Buck Angel
This reference sayes (* June 5, 1972 in Yucatan, Mexico) as Buck Angels birthdate. Is ist relevant? --Netpi (talk) 00:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

A 1969 birthdate was deleted by Angelayne (talk along with an alternative name. Totorotroll (talk) 12:48, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

In an Interview Buck sayed he was born as Susan Butch in Yucatan Mexico. --Netpi (talk) 09:03, 31 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Netpi, I reverted you here because you need to provide a WP:Reliable source for that material. Read the WP:Reliable source guideline to see what Wikipedia considers a reliable source. Flyer22 (talk) 09:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Real name?? It looks like you're saying transgender people are really their birth-assigned sex. Georgia guy (talk) 13:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC)


 * You are talking to Netpi, correct? If so, you should keep WP:Indent in mind; by that, I mean indent in a way that makes it clearer who you are responding to. Flyer22 (talk) 13:11, 31 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Buck said in an interview she/he was born as Susan. Maybe she/he was lying in that interview. So we better leave it in the tals than in the article. --Netpi (talk) 07:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Netpi, why are you still failing to provide a WP:Reliable source for this interview you keep citing? Flyer22 (talk) 07:51, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I've added a reference to Angel's original given name Susan, as stated by him in an interview published by a reliable source. I see no basis for doubting his statement, any more than we would any other inconsequential biographical detail someone might divulge in an interview (e.g. if he said he lived in Chicago for a year, or that his dog's name was Rover, we'd accept it). -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)


 * On IMDB it also says his given name was "Susan Butch" and he was born on June 5th 1972, although I'm not sure if they're considered a reliable source.  Also, I'm wondering if "Buck Angel" is his official name now or if that's a stage name. And did he take the "Angel" part from his wife Elayne or did she take his name? Danni Ruthvan (talk) 04:58, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * IMDB is acceptable for film-credit data, because that's easy for anyone to verify, but the bio articles on it aren't well-sourced. Whether Buck Angel is his legal name or not, as far as I know it's the only current name we have for him, which is what's important. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 17:03, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080708183210/http://www.eros-zine.com/articles/2007-02-06/buckangel0206/ to http://www.eros-zine.com/articles/2007-02-06/buckangel0206/

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External links modified
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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110715101215/http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/media.blubrry.com/lgn/media.libsyn.com/media/lgnshow/LGN091.mp3 to http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/media.blubrry.com/lgn/media.libsyn.com/media/lgnshow/LGN091.mp3

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External links modified
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I have just modified 14 one external links on Buck Angel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nypress.com/article-13179-man-or-woman-you-decide.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://magazine.goodvibes.com/2007/05/23/porn-star-xxxposure-buck-angel
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130622040319/http://dirty-mag.com:80/03/ent_buck.html to http://dirty-mag.com/03/ent_buck.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.buck-angel.com/blog/index.php/about/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060612234141/http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0536,taormino,67482,24.html to http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0536,taormino,67482,24.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151117202457/http://www.stockholmpride.org/en/Journal/Festivalen-2011/Thursday/The-Buck-Angel-Experience/ to http://www.stockholmpride.org/en/Journal/Festivalen-2011/Thursday/The-Buck-Angel-Experience/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121015014600/http://www.yaledailynews.com:80/news/2010/feb/15/transgender-porn-star-shares-story/ to http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/feb/15/transgender-porn-star-shares-story/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150311050156/http://buckangelentertainment.com:80/multi-media/psa/ to http://buckangelentertainment.com/multi-media/psa/
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090303153646/http://www.avnawards.com/index.php?content=pastwinners to http://www.avnawards.com/index.php?content=pastwinners
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111102223202/http://www.goodforher.com:80/fpa_2008 to http://www.goodforher.com/fpa_2008
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nypress.com/article-13179-man-or-woman-you-decide.html
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List of awards and nominations
I redirected List of awards and nominations received by Buck Angel‎ for now, but this page could easily be expanded into a Featured list, if anyone is interested. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 19:29, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Legal name
An occasional contributor of data to this article removed the subject's legal name, arguing that including it was somehow transphobic... which makes no sense, because it is the male name that the subject adopted as part of his transition to male identity. However, it's a more reasonable question to ask whether this name should be included or not on the basis of privacy: just because we know a fact doesn't necessarily mean we publish it. His legal name was added to the article just a few weeks ago. He doesn't use it professionally or in any publicity materials – exclusively using his stage name – and apparently the only verified source for his legal name was the paperwork in a legal dispute. But it is a matter of public record. I'm not arguing for or against including the name, I just think it should be decided by consensus according to policy. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 02:35, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I think there's been some confusion between the legal name and birth name. I myself have been mixed up on this in this article. The former is appropriate to include. I agree there's nothing wrong with adding the legal name that matches the person's current identity. The latter would need to follow WP:BIRTHNAME.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 07:52, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Added Gender transition section and background information
Hello, everyone! I had just recently put in a gender transitioning section for Angel along with additional background information regarding his educational work and early life. If necessary, please take a chance to look over or fix anything that seems out of place as this is my first ever edit. --Foodcritique (talk) 02:59, 17 March 2017 (UTC)