Talk:Bud Abbott/Archive 1

Untitled
I saw on the bio-pic starring Buddy Hackett and Harvey Korman, and have heard from other sources, that in comedy duos the straight man always got the 60% cut because they didn't get the laughs and were therefore less popular. Costello didn't create this he bucked it. He insisted that he get the 60% cut because the act would be nothing without him and Abbott acquiesced.

Birth date
This article says Abbott was born in 1895, but the Abbott and Costello article says 1897. Which is right? Thryduulf 17:24, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
 * His WWI draft card has his birthdate as october 2, 1897. On the 1900 census, his birthdate is Oct. 1897. Questors 23:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * A&C Official Web Site (http://www.abbottandcostello.net/nw_biog.asp) says his birthdate is 1897. Let's keep it to what the site run by A&C's children say. Donaldd23 00:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * All Abbott And Costello books support Bud Abbott's birth as 1895. Who's On First Book, The Official Abbott And Costello Scrapbook, The Abbott And Costello Book by Jim Mulholland, Lou's On First by Chris Costello, The Abbott And Costello Story, Abbott And Costello In Hollywood book and Bud And Lou book by Bob Thomas all support Bud's birth as 1895. Bud's wife Betty who was interviewed for Chris Costello's book Lou's On First also stated in the book that Bud was born on October 2, 1895 and died on April 24, 1974.


 * Actually, Abbott and Costello in Hollywood states that his birth date is 1897. The Abbott and Costello Book and Lou's on First say 1895.  I do not have the other 2 books you mentioned so I cannot attest to what they state.  But, Hollywood clearly lists it as 1897, not 1895 as you state in your reply.  However, since 1895 is listed in 2 out of the 3 books that I have, I will support the decision to leave this at 1895.  You should note that the Abbott and Costello article shows it as 1897, so if you really support this change to 1895 you should change it there as well.  Thanks!  Donaldd23 10:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Donaldd23, "The Abbott And Costello In Hollywood" by Bob Furmanek and Ron Palumbo does indeed have Bud Abbott's birth as 1895. If you have the book, it is on page 15 and says, "Following Bud's birth on October 2, 1895, the Abbott's moved to Coney Island, where they lived for 18 years. As I've stated above, I have all the Abbott and Costello books and they all support Bud being born in 1895. Chris Costello's book has Betty Abbott saying Bud was born in 1895. Every Obituary I have on Bud Abbott says 1895. abbottandcostello.net does have it listed as 1897 and I will contact Dan who runs the site and the message board and see why he has it listed as 1897. Here is Chris Costello's site and she also supports Bud's birth as 1895. She now has a chatroom so fans can go there to chat with her about Bud and Lou. Here is the site: http://www.abbottandcostellocollectibles.com/index.htm              Ken


 * The copy of Abbott and Costello in Hollywood by Furmanek & Palumbo that I own (paperback, 1991) says (on page 15) "Following Bud's birth on October 6, 1987, the Abbotts moved to Coney Island". Not sure which edition you have.  But, as I said before the other 2 I own state the birth date as 1895, so that is what I will accept as the truth.  There is no need to discuss it anymore, but I would like to know which edition of A&C in Hollywood that you own. Donaldd23 11:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Donaldd23, I don't know why your book says 1897 and mine says 1895. I bought mine through the fan club and it is signed on the inside page by Patty Costello, Chris Costello, Vickie Abbott Wheeler and Bud Abbott Jr. I looked to see what printing it was and could not find one. It is paperback as a hardback was never released on this book. I know I have a total of 7 books on A&C and that includes Lou's On First and they all say Bud was born is 1895. I am a member on The Abbott And Costello Message Board and we talk on there all the time about anything and everything to do with Bud and Lou and most of the members on that board support Bud's birth as 1895. Could that date be wrong? Yes it could just as the 1897 could be wrong also but 95% of the sources out there support the 1895 as his birth year. The abbottandcostello.net site is run by a guy named Dan and he is the one that has the 1897 as Bud's birth, not Vickie. You could join that Message Board as they always welcome new members. It's great reading what other A&C fans have to say and making your own posts also. I don't want any hard feelings between us, and I'm glad we can talk this out. This book things does puzzle me though. I don't know why the same book would have 2 different dates for Bud's birth. I believe you on what your books says, I'm just trying to figure this whole thing out. I did want to add here that I checked my Abbott And Costello In Hollywood book again and it says 1895 so there is no mistake here. I think I will make a post on the A&C Message Board about this and see what the other fans have to say on this date issue.


 * Since the year 1897 appears, or has appeared, in the literature (for example, abbottandcostello.net still says 1897), is it valid for us to simply choose the date we think is most likely (1895), and assert it without qualification as if it were established fact? I’m not comfortable with that approach.  Questor’s comment at the top of the thread that “His WWI draft card has his birthdate as october 2, 1897. On the 1900 census, his birthdate is Oct. 1897” has not been taken into account.  I don’t know where that information came from, but if it’s true it needs to be explained.  Is it likely that his parents thought he was only 3 years old in 1900 when he was actually 5?  Is it likely that he himself thought he was only 18 in 1915 when he was actually 20?  Many young men are renowned for backdating their ages in order to make them seem old enough to go and fight for their country when they're really under age.  This might explain why the draft card says 1897 if he was really born in 1899, for example.  On the other hand, if he wanted to avoid the draft by seeming too young, that might explain saying he was born in 1897 when he was really born in 1895.  But maybe neither of these scenarios applied, and he really was born in 1897.  One slip of the pen I could understand - but two?  My hunch is that he adjusted his birth year when he got into theatrical work, in order to make him seem 2 years older than he actually was, and that fiction has permeated the literature ever since.  But I could be wrong.  At the very least, we should have a footnote acknowledging that 1897 appears in some reputable sources.  --  JackofOz (talk) 02:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * In relation to the census information, I've just read this very enlightening sentence on Gracie Allen's page: It should be further noted, however, that census enumerators received their information by word of mouth, often from third parties, and discrepancies between ages from one decade's census to another are not uncommon. In Bud Abbott's case we're not trying to explain a difference between 2 censuses, but between a census and a draft card (which both say 1897), and other evidence (1895).  But it's all relevant information.  --  JackofOz (talk) 01:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Bud Abbott was born in 1897. It is so stated on his birth certificate, census records, and on his World War I Draft registration, which is written in his own hand. The second edition of "Abbott and Costello in Hollywood" corrected the date to 1897 from 1895, which was appeared in the first edition. I should know; I am the co-author.Plummer (talk) 07:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Revisions to accommodate imprecision in birth date
I noticed that an editor recently changed the birth year to 1898 based on an online database entry without speaking to the various published dates at all. Therefore, I've made modifications to the article to present a variable birthdate, supported by a few references. I did not use the references noted in the discussion above because I do not myself have access to them. . . except for the online biography, which I did not consider a reliable source when compared to other sources which have specific dates of publication and bylines. I only provided one reference to support each of three dates, but I think that is sufficient if - I forgot to add a cross reference to discussion here; I'll do that momentarily. I think this is the most equitable approach and the one which does not put Wikipedia in a position of coming down on one date or another as more valid; the publication record does not support a choice of one over another given the current information policies. I would leave it to other resources to decide one or another is the right date and let Wikipedia serve as the resource for people to go to when they want to see the whole story and not just a convenient version of it. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 02:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

If Plummer has found a copy of Bud's birth certificate, that should settle the issue. I found the WWI Draft registration and the census returns for 1900 (in Manhattan as "Alexander W. Abbott" with parents), 1910 (in Coney Island as "Alexander Abbott" with parents) and 1920 (in Washington, DC as "Wm. A. Abbott" with wife "Bettie")on Ancestry.com. Any experienced genealogist knows that the information taken closest to the event is considered the most reliable. Here are four official documents that are all in agreement: The draft card is signed and self-reported; the census returns reported by parents, wife or himself. True, on some earlier census forms (1850s - 1880s) there can be inaccuracies, but the 1900 census is considered fairly reliable overall. Besides, there's a big difference between a child who's two-going-on-three and one who's four-going-on-five. Absent the birth certificate, this is the information closest to the event, and it is supported by the later documents. The best evidence I've seen here for 1895 is "it's in an A&C book." The problem with that: Lazy scholarship repeats errors, so the wrong date - wherever it originated - was repeated in several articles and books. The suggestion that the WWI Draft card is wrong doesn't hold up, because misreporting his birthdate by two years would not have exempt him from the draft. Bud's birthdate should be accepted as October 2, 1897. Laughingboy66 (talk) 21:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

FamilySearch has DOB of 06 October 1897 - "New Jersey, Births and Christenings, 1660-1980," (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FCB1-1FP : accessed 24 June 2012) JustWinBaby (talk) 23:23, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Jewish?
I removed the link from Jewish Americans based on census info: Bud Abbott. Questors 23:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * His mother was Jewish. From his "Jewhoo" entry: "The straight man of the famous "Abbott and Costello" team. We got the straight story from the editor of "The Abbott and Costello Quarterly", via a friend of Jewhoo. Abbott's mother, Rae, was Jewish. She was a former circus horse rider. He was not raised Jewish. His two adopted children were not raised Jewish. However, late in life, in tribute to his deceased mother, Abbott and his (non-Jewish) wife renewed their vows in a Jewish ceremony. In an interesting sidelight, one of our visitors tells us that Bud Abbott and his wife took in our the visitor's Jewish grandmother when she was a young teenager and raised her like a stepdaughter. They were very kind to her. Much later in life she became the president of her synagogue. Bud Abbott died in 1974, at 78. A biography of Bud Abbott (but without the Jewish 'angle') can be found on the following link." You can access the database at Johnny234 07:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I consider Jewhoo to be nothing more than gossip and the Abbott and Costello Quarterly a fan magazine. Based on actual records, Bud's mother Rachel Fisher, born in Maryland in 1858, is half Prussian and half Bavarian, the latter from her mother Fredericka. Questors 17:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but what exactly is your source that she was not Jewish? Jewhoo has never been wrong. Obviously his mother's parents came from somewhere in Europe, and obviously there were plenty of Jewish immigrants coming from Prussia and Bavaria. If her parents were named O'Donnelly and came from Dublin, you would have a point. But this census info certainly co-responds with the information on Jewhoo or with any other source that says that his mother was Jewish. 24.226.10.98 08:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Never been wrong. Amazing. According to one review, "Visitors were invited to submit names of famous Jewish persons in a variety of categories. Since neither Page nor Williams had the time to do fact-checking, visitor submissions mostly went up on the site as submitted. That, predictably, resulted in many errors." Meanwhile the Bud Abbott census information is from 1860. That is long before Jews started coming to the US from Prussia and Bavaria. [1860 United States Federal Census > Maryland > Baltimore (Independent City) > Baltimore Ward 7 > Page 313.] If you have a source that is other than hearsay and repeated stories, please list it.Questors 16:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That review of Jewhoo refers to the old management of the website, dating back to something like 2001, before the current editor, and the one who was in charge of the version you see now, took over. You are not going to find a single mistake on it now. Anyway, Jewhoo's credibility is not even relevant, since the site lists their source as the Abbott & Costello Quarterly. Surely they would know? 24.226.10.98 19:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * There are more sources stating that he was Jewish, than not[

The only site I could find that disputes this is your blog and since this site isn't really based on what you consider and you believe but on info that's already out there...sorry, Charlie. If you feel the info you have is concrete, contact those sites including Jewhoo and maybe they'll agree with you. MrBlondNYC 09:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no good source that his mother was Jewish. You can't really use sites like Am I Annoying, etc. Jewhoo credited the Abbott & Costello Quarterly, and I am not so sure that the Quarterly is a reliable source. See this book biography - searchable online - Abbott's wife was a convert to Judaism and that is why they were re-married in a Jewish ceremony. The book was worked on by Abbott's family - they had every chance to mention that his mother was Jewish in the Jewish wedding thing - or elsewhere in the book - but they didn't. Mad Jack 19:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Out of the seven sources I listed, you took the very last and most unreliable of the seven and used that for your reasoning. Very clever. The first source I provided appears to be part of his official bio since the copyright says "Bud Abbott" and it is extremely detailed about his childhood. Read it, would you please? In it, it says that as a child he had to avoid a certain part of town because Jewish boys were targeted. I don't think they would mention that if he wasn't Jewish. Again, the only site that disputes this is your blog, which as of yet is not considered a credible site in the least by anyone. MrBlondNYC 09:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not my blog, it's Questors - different user - who I think is usually right - though I agree that we can't use her blog as a source. However, how do you explain the fact that Abbott's book - i.e. co-writter by members of his family - doesn't mention the fact that his mother was Jewish, even though it does mention other Jewish-related details - like his Jewish re-wedding. Web sites in general are not considered reliable sources. Did you even notice that this source was not about the same Bud Abbott? - the one about the anti-Semitism in his neiguborhood. It's a source about some British Bud Abbott! LOL! "Bud Abbott was born, brought up and worked much of his life in the East End of London"... Am I Annoying, Adherents, etc. are not reliable and are not first-hand sources. I admit a detail source like the one you mention about anti-Semitism to him in his childhood may be reliable - but I find it weird that you didn't even notice that source wasn't about the same Bud Abbott! Mad Jack 07:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/local/straight-man-abbott-vow-renewal-film-springfield-treasure/4xJRfFtKFPKw6oU33kWXVK/?outputType=amp Reporting from this newspaper and comments from contemporaneous witnesses to abbott’s wedding all corroborate his mother’s Judaism. Kcmargulies (talk) 03:27, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Citations needed
I've added "citation needed" tags where they seem warranted. I am particularly interested in the source of the statement that Costello later in his career received a 60-40 split. My understanding was that they were getting 50-50 at the time and that he once demanded 60-40 as a reflection of their poor relationship at the time, but that he did not actually get the split. There are already references in the article and it would be great if there could be more where warranted.--Silverscreen 15:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I found my copy of Lou's biography (Lou's on First by Chris Costello) and sure enough, he did indeed split sixty-forty with Abbott after they became big stars.--Silverscreen 17:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the "citation needed" for the location of the three stars in Hollywood. I cannot verify this myself, but it seems like a verifiable fact that need not be reported in another printed source in order to be considered trustworthy.68.49.37.138 05:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)Matt

Bud's final years
Two articles posted on the official Abbott and Costello site say that Bud was living off Social Security at the time of his death. These articles were from the National Enquirer, which I would ordinarily discount if they hadn't appeared on the official website, which is run by the Abbott and Costello families. See http://www.abbottandcostello.net/ and click on "articles." Unless someone objects, citing better sources, I will correct these articles to reflect this information.--Silverscreen 21:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Sir John Abbott?
Former Prime Minister Sir John Abbott's page on wikiquote says that Bud Abbott is his cousin. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this? --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup and Citation
This article is incomplete and is missing a great deal of citations for its information. The lead section for the article is way too short and will need to be expanded via copy edits. There is a lot of information on Abbott that can be added to the article with proper citations since it seems that there is some missing information. There is also a great deal of information in the article that is unsourced and will either need to be given proper citations or removed if no reliable source is found. A better, and more professional image of should also be considered for this article as well. This article has potential and considering that I'm a huge fan of the both Bud and Lou, I hope this article gets the attention it needs (along with the articles on Bud and Lou, and the separate article on Lou) so that is qualifies for GA and FA status.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Comparing this article to the coverage to the one of Lou Costello, I've noticed that the latter is far more developed than this one. Although that doesn't mean that the article on Lou Costello is good by any means (it needs so much work done to it). There is just so much information that is missing from this article which needs to be added with proper citations from reliable sources (sighs). Hopefully someone comes along and gives this and other articles on classic comedians the attention they deserve to fulfill their full potential.--Paleface Jack 17:07, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Extended the lede today. Valetude (talk) 04:57, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Nice!--Paleface Jack (talk) 00:55, 30 November 2018 (UTC)