Talk:Bud Powell/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Esculenta (talk · contribs) 15:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I'll review this article. Will have comments here within a few days. Esculenta (talk) 15:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you! --Comment by Selfie City ( talk about my  contributions ) 19:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, here are some thoughts after a read-through. I think the article is generally quite well-written and researched, and most of what follows are minor nitpicks, suggestions, and calls for clarification. I'll be back later to assess other aspects of the GA criteria. Esculenta (talk) 17:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * " … jazz critics have commented that his compositions and playing style "greatly extended the range of jazz harmony," not a fan of this construction. First, I doubt that critics (i.e. more than one) said that quote. Second the quote is unattributed. Third, I don't see what's so special about the string of seven words that couldn't just be written with different phrasing. Fourth, there's a MOS:LQ issue.
 * link stride, ragtime, tuberculosis (on first mention)
 * is the Uptown House referred to in "Career" this one?
 * "Powell was engaged in a series of dance bands" construction sounds a little odd … the meaning of "engaged in" is ambiguous. Could/should "dance band" be linked to big band?
 * there's two spots in subsection 1943–1945 where Powell is described as doing something with the "trumpeter's band", but I think it needs to be explicitly mentioned that Cootie Williams was the trumpeter (they might not remember from the mention in the lead)
 * "with alcoholics, drug addicts, and chronic mental health cases." not sure its PC to call people with mental health issues "chronic mental health cases".
 * link sight-reading, cabaret card, maybe link "studio session" to recording studio?, jam session
 * "recorded the first half of his Roost album" we don't learn what "Roost" is until three paragraphs later, so this is a bit cryptic here
 * "In November 1947, he had an altercation" subject of "he" is unclear (Eager was the previous person discussed)
 * link masters, 78 rpm records, Carnegie Hall, Cherokee, Anthropology, Parisian Thoroughfare, Un Poco Loco
 * why are the instruments of Tommy Potter and Roy Haynes not mentioned, in contrast to the two band members listed before them?
 * entire article needs a MOS:LQ audit; e.g. "Cherokee," "Get Happy," and "All God’s Chillun Got Rhythm."
 * " was noted for "brilliant...all-star" missing word "its"?
 * links: marijuana, heroin, sterile, asylum, groupies, epilepsy
 * electroshock therapy was previously referred to and linked as electroconvulsive therapy, so it might be prudent to maintain the same wording throughout
 * "but saw his health and piano playing affected by Largactil," suggest "the antipsychotic medication Largactil" for more context
 * "a composition which critics have suggested" which->that
 * "and was marketed as "the greatest jazz concert ever."" an attributory citation should be given after a quote.
 * "While the concert is best-known for …" hyphenation not needed
 * "Powell's rivalry with Charlie Parker" This rivalry sort of comes from no-where; I had the impression from the previous text that they were colleagues who occasionally played together. Any more details that might flesh out the nature of this rivalry?
 * "the owners of Birdland continued to have complete control over Powell's performance schedule and may have provided him with his common-law wife, Altevia "Buttercup" Edwards." Provided him with a wife?? Details?
 * link liner notes, Art Tatum
 * "In June 1956, Powell's younger brother Richie and trumpeter Clifford Brown were killed in a car crash.[66] Despite this setback, Powell was recognized as competent by the New York authorities following legal efforts…" I'm confused as to how the two events are related… was older Powell in the car as well? Why did New York authorities have to assess his competency? What are the "legal efforts" about?
 * "and he was able to record for Granz once again in September," who is Granz? Not discussed before or after.
 * link psychotherapy; Art Taylor should be linked on first mention, "Time Waits", Jazz Messengers, Bouncing with Bud, CD, tranquilizer, recital
 * "SteepleChase Records obtained a five-volume CD of the pianist's trio from a two-night April engagement at the Golden Circle, a nightclub in Stockholm.[88]" and… ? Verb "obtained" and no followup leaves me confused.
 * "Powell completed further recording dates, including two with Paudras on brushes," what does this mean? Drum brush? Wasn't Paudras a pianist?
 * "Morganstern" typo
 * the role that Frances Barnes played in his life seems underdeveloped. She's first mentioned in subsection "1945–1948", but without saying who she is. It's not until her third and final mention in the article that we learn she was a girlfriend. His spouse Audrey Hill (according to the infobox) is not mentioned in the article at all.
 * " extremely moving ... Powell hasn't lost is his marvelous" seems to be an extra (or missing) word somewhere
 * it's amazing that the then three-year-old Benny Green played at his funeral!
 * link Bill Cunliffe, arpeggio
 * "Christopher Finch, who heard him play with a young French bassist late 1962, noted that he struggled to play even basic melodies with which the bassist was unfamiliar, but when Powell asked the bassist to pick a tune he knew, his technique immediately recovered." Why would Powell struggle with melodies that the bassist doesn't know?; wouldn't Powell struggle with melodies with which Powell is unfamiliar?
 * link voicing, extended chord
 * Tom Piazza's noting that Powell was a "lifelong Bach devotee" leads me to wonder why Bach has not been mentioned before in the article as a possible influence or favorite of Powell's
 * Andre Previn -> André Previn
 * Down Beat magazine -> DownBeat

Hello. I am extremely grateful for this response. There are many great points here I missed and almost all of these are easily fixable. I'm going to try to go through the more complicated ones one by one to address them and will fix them accordingly.
 * The quote regarding "jazz harmony" is something that perhaps could be removed entirely if it lacks support.
 * Yes, Monroe's Uptown House is the correct one. I will add a link and the full name for clarity.
 * This is referring to the word "engagement," which in jazz is sometimes used to refer to a "long-running engagement" at a jazz club that books the same musicians for several days or weeks in a row. I could change to "member of".
 * Will mention Cootie Williams again for clarity.
 * I believe "chronic mental health cases" is a quote or paraphrase from the original source, not a term I would have personally used, but we can change that if needed.
 * Some points here are easy fixes with links/elaboration of unclear words
 * Rivalry with Charlie Parker - this is a difficult one because the relationship between Powell and Parker is complicated. Although they played together frequently, sources indicate they were also rivals but don't really specify how this played out. The best example I could find was Jazz Masters of the Forties, in which Powell was alleged to have provoked Parker extensively in a quite vulgar altercation, but it's very hard to find reliable documentation for many of the stories surrounding this rivalry. Many are just mentioned as "rumors." I can do further research, though.
 * So as for Altevia Edwards and the marriage situation: this is probably the most difficult part of the article. It's complicated as I couldn't find consistent information regarding how they met in the sources. What has to be understood is that following the beginning of Powell's guardianship, he became submissive and everything from finances to romantic partners were provided to him by his guardian. The reason Ms. Hill isn't mentioned in the article is that this marriage was arranged, but immediately fell apart and I can't even remember which source mentioned her and her later life. I can do further research on this as well.
 * Further, any testimony that is direct from Altevia Edwards can be considered unreliable, as much of it is directly contradicted by other reliable sources. On occasion, interviews with her made their way into magazines and local newspapers, and many of her comments in these are not reliable. There are several sources that go into why her testimony is unreliable, but the one that goes into the most detail is Dance of the Infidels.


 * My aim with the setback was to put two ideas into a logical flow in the paragraph, which admittedly didn't work too well. What I was trying to say was, "despite the inevitable grieving that came from losing his brother, Bud had a string of successes after his brother's death," but I couldn't find much evidence for grieving in any sources. I believe the declaration of competency is related to being able to play in clubs per the cabaret card rules, but almost all of the public information on this part of Powell's life comes from Wail, a very detailed biography that is self-published by Peter Pullman and is therefore unusable.
 * Sorry, Granz is Norman Granz. Thanks for catching stuff like this!
 * SteepleChase obtained the records, I'm just not sure how. All I know is that they came in possession of them and released the album. Presumably they bought them off the club, but I have no documentation of this.
 * Paudras played drum brushes on the record, probably on a phone book, to keep time for Powell as presumably no drum kit was available. Again, I don't have any reliable sources on how the record was made. Kenny Clarke also did this on a recording with Charlie Parker and Lennie Tristano much earlier. Most jazz musicians would probably be able to play a basic rhythm with brushes to keep time and wouldn't need to be a drummer so that information is definitely accurate.
 * Dan Morganstern is/was, I think, a DownBeat writer. I don't think is a typo but I can check.
 * Again, the sources are strange when it comes to Frances Barnes. I think he lost contact with her around 1948/1950 and only reunited with her when he returned to New York in 1964. However, Celia Powell did give an interview in a reliable source about some details of her childhood and Barnes was her mother, so I could add this to the article. As for why I didn't, I believe Celia is still alive, so I wanted to be careful regarding our policy on living persons.
 * A different Benny Green, I think? I can check.
 * One of Powell's peculiarities, only hinted at in the sources, is that his own technique fell apart when he was with bad musicians. To understand this, I would probably have to look at the Max Cohen guardianship files, which I have no idea how to access but which would explain Powell's personality better than anything else. But yes, this is not a typo - Powell struggled to play tunes he knew well because, I guess, the wrong notes from the bassist confused him.
 * I can mention Bach in the 1950s section of the article, as Powell did a record titled "Bud on Bach" around 1955-1956 (Volume 3 of the Amazing Bud Powell) that could support his Bach influence more. Once again, it is hard to find evidence on Powell's influences, particularly outside jazz. Documentation of his early life is extremely sparse outside Wail.

Hopefully this summary helps! Once again, thank you for your critiques and I will get to work on a checklist of all these points! --Comment by Selfie City ( talk about my  contributions ) 20:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I have since done further work and I think I've covered all the points mentioned above and even some I thought I might not be able to fix directly. Let me know if there are any further issues of concern that you can find within the article. --Comment by Selfie City ( talk about my  contributions ) 19:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I've reread the article (added a few links) and think all of my suggestions have been expertly addressed. All eight images used in the article have compliant licenses and are appropriately captioned and relevant to the article. The online sources I was able to check for text-source integrity did not reveal any issues. The sources used are reliable and appropriate for this work. (please include an ending page for FN#11 (Siek 2016), and it would probably be good to include isbns for all of the book references, but that's outside the GA criteria) Thanks for your efforts; promoting this article now. Esculenta (talk) 20:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I appreciate the significant time you've spent reviewing this article. I will check the isbns. --Comment by Selfie City ( talk about my  contributions ) 21:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)