Talk:Buddy Holly/Archive 1

another pop culture reference
Not sure that it matters, but a reference that seems as least as worthy as those mentioned regarding the Simpsons, was in George Lucas' "American Graffiti" when the character John Milner states after turning off the car radio which was playing the Beach Boys:

"I don't like that surfin' s--t. Rock 'n' Roll's been goin' downhill ever since Buddy Holly died." http://www.filmsite.org/amerg.html -Pcorkett (talk) 08:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I propose the inclusion of The Weezer song "Buddy Holly" -Mullhawk (talk) 23:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It's already in the Tributes section. →Wordbuilder (talk) 00:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * ah, i see. Mullhawk (talk) 05:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

What about Frankie Muniz playing him in The Dewey Cox story?Sorry,Ive never seen the movie,but it showed it on Frankies page,so I figured it should be on here.--D3t3ctiv3 (talk) 08:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

stray comments
I'm not sure what the policy is about wiki-linking songs etc. that do not yet have an article behind them. I notice that sometimes (as in the most recent edit of this article) people remove red links, but I thought the idea was to leave a place holder for an anticipated future article. Can someone point to the place where this is discussed, or where a consensus has been reached? Jgm 17:11, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * Jgm - I deleted the links when I added the new content because I see so many irrelevant links in articles. But in response to your question, I found the policy on this and find that I was wrong to delete them. So I have put them back. Here is the policy: Make only links relevant to the context Fernkes 20:20, Sep 20, 2003 (UTC)

Morwen's edit is correct -- "the plane was named 'American Pie' or 'Miss American Pie'" is an urban legend. see http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/amerpie.htm for details. Jgm 15:58, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I'm feel like I should ask others for opinions, so I think it might be more appropriate to have Buddy Holly and the Crickets redirect to The Crickets rather than to Buddy Holly. I know that Buddy Holly is the main reason for the band, but The Crickets' page only has a link for him anyways. However, The Crickets did continue without him, and there might be some confusion. --Ricky81682 05:34, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree that "Buddy Holly and the Crickets" should redirect to "The Crickets", but only if the article is expanded to include the time that Holly was with them. It currently only mentions him in passing... Lachatdelarue [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]] 15:44, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Any comment on adding to the wreck? I've read (in Flying, I think) the wreck may have been due to smoke in the cockpit, from a heater in the tail that caught fire. (The same cause has been blamed for the crash that killed Rick Nelson.) I've also seen pilot inexperience (lack of instrument time for the conditions) blamed. --fourthina3, 16/11/05


 * The link at the bottom of the page takes you to a reproduction of the report of the Civil Aeronautics Board adopted 15th September 1959. The conclusion was "...The Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the pilot's unwise decision to embark on a flight which would necessitate flying solely by instruments when he was not properly certificated or qualified to do so. Contributing factors were serious deficiencies in the weather briefing, and the pilot's unfamiliarity with the instrument which determines the attitude of the aircraft." Peter Maggs 16:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, the CAB was NOT a predecessor of the FAA. They were coterminous and had different missions regulating the airline industry. The CAB was eliminated in the Carter Administration, and the FAA existed long before Carter.

- wosuna 2/2/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wosuna (talk • contribs) 23:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguity & Holley/Holly
"...they opened for Bill Haley...". It is unclear if 'they' refers to Buddy and Bob or Buddy and Elvis.

Also, I changed Holley to Holly, so it wasn't half one way and half the other. Clarityfiend 02:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I pinpointed the exact date: February 8, 1956. Theoretically you could spell it "Holley" before then and "Holly" after. However, we don't want to confuse the Great Unwashed any more than necessary. Wahkeenah 03:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Why no picture??!!!
Is there any good reason why there's no picture of a living and performing Buddy Holly on this page? Are there no public domain images available? Wouldn't it count as fair use if there are only copyrighted ones available?... ENpeeOHvee 04:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE - I did a quick search and was able to find some album covers, so I uploaded them, since I know they can be included under fair use. But more images should still be added. ENpeeOHvee 05:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Be very careful. The recent ruling on Wikipedia is that covers of books/magazines are not fair use unless the picture is used to critique the publication in question.  --cholmes75 (chit chat) 13:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * They must be worried that some album or magazine publisher is going to sue wikipedia for providing them free advertising. Wahkeenah 14:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Felice and Boudleaux Bryant
Could a Holly expert please add to the songlist at Felice and Boudleaux Bryant? --Design 09:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

US Charts
At least some of the peak chart positions listed are wrong. Where did they come from? According to Billboard, Buddy Holly landed three Top Ten singles: That'll Be The Day at #1, Peggy Sue at #3 and Oh, Boy! at #10. That's it. I used the chart positions listed on this page in an argument online about Little Richard vs. Buddy Holly. I got burned. Thanks a lot. Clashwho 22:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The Quantum Leap Episode
I thought the assistant was the son of the vet. But I do know that the son was playing a song on his guitar about a pig named Sue and therefor singing Piggy Sue. Then the main character from Quantum Leap proposed to call the song Peggy Sue cause (being from the future) he was sure that would make a better title for a song

The young Buddy was an assistant to Dr. Beckett's character. (this is evidenced by the fact that he would generally ask if he could go home after finishing up with the animals.) He had the tune for peggy sue throughout the episode but kept putting different lyrics with it. At the very end after Dr. Beckett had accomplished what he believed to be his mission and realized he was still there, he started looking for the piglet saying "Piggy, Souee." this caused the boy who was playing his guitar to start singing with the words Piggy Souee in place of Peggy Sue. Al and Sam exchange looks and Al tells him to try it. Sam looks at the boy and for the first time addresses him by a name other than a nickname, saying "Buddy, (to which the boy looks up) why don't you try Peggy Sue. It might sound better." Buddy goes along with it and launches into the song we know today as Peggy Sue.

Brad Zeak 06:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC) Brad Zeak

Discography
I moved the discography in this article to its own, Buddy Holly discography. The trend for larger articles on bands/musicians seems to be to separate the discography if it is a lengthy one. --cholmes75 (chit chat) 02:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Guitars
Most images and references seem to show or mention his Fender Stratocaster, but the museum in Lubbock reportedly has his Gibson Les Paul. Does it seem like that might be worth mentioning as well? (References to songs he used it on or shows where he used it would be particularly helpful.) Also, I found a report that Gary Busey had bought one of Holly's guitars, but haven't found any details about which one or what kind. If someone wanted an interesting, short research project, that might be worth investigating. Xtifr tälk 21:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

More cites, less trivia
I'm sorry, but yet another mention of a Holly sighting in some cartoon show is really not a worthy addition to this article. What the article really needs at this point is more citations and less trivia. Some of the contents of the "Tributes" section should be ruthlessly pruned, IMO. See WP:AVTRIV. Some of the external links look very useful, but they should really be used to cite some of the specific details in the article. I think there's actually enough material here to turn this into at least a B class article (maybe even A), but it definitely needs some cleanup first. Xtifr tälk 17:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I Fought the Law
After research on the internet, I have reached the conclusion that "I Fought the Law" was recorded in 1959 after Buddy's death. I believe someone should delete this reference unless someone can give a detail account supporting its recording before 1959.

A contradiction
One detail on the Buddy Holly article needs to be addressed. In this article, it says the plane (in which Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and the Big Bopper died) flew into cold but otherwise good weather. However, the same account in the articles of the other two men say the plane flew into a "blinding snowstorm." We need to know which is correct. Kevin Scott Marcus 05:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC) The CAB report lists the local weather reported to the accident airplane during taxi to the active runway as: Precipitation ceiling 3,000 feet, sky obscured; visibility 6 miles; light snow; wind south 20 knots, gusts to 30 knots; altimeter setting 29.85 inches.Jdavrgfan 01:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well according to the Aeronautics Board report, it was a light snow but still decent visibility. So this article is closer to being correct than the others.  --cholmes75 (chit chat) 14:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Weather
Ritchie Valen's wikipedia page says the airplane took off in a blinding snowstorm. This one says that the weather was good but extremely cold. There's a contradiction here. 192.28.2.41 19:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)VM
 * The Buddy Holly book also says it was very snowy. Wahkeenah 00:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Quantum leap reference
In the article its mentioned that Sam was able to complete the mission and was baffled why he hadn't leaped which isn't correct, Sam was baffled because despite his best efforts he wanst able to marry Tess so the mission wasnt complete and the probabilities were too low that he was there to marry Tess and when he corrects the fictional Buddy Holly to sing Peggy Sue instead of Piggy he leaps. Maybe it should be corrected? (86.29.104.180)

The Hollies
I think that that whole thing about The Hollies should be taken out, or at least dropped to a blurb in the "Tributes" section. I took out the line that I've italicized in the following statement, "According to the band's website, although the group admired Buddy Holly (and years later produced an album covering some of his songs), their name was inspired primarily by the sprigs of holly in evidence around Christmas of 1962. The site also admits to a degree of uncertainty about that story, so it is possible that they have disavowed any reference to Holly in order to avoid legal or copyright issues." because it was speculation

Unsourced
The following needs some references before it can go back into the article:

Holly's personal style, more controlled and cerebral than that of Elvis and more youthful and innovative than the country and western stars of his day, would have an influence on both sides of the Atlantic for decades to come, reflected particularly in the New Wave movement in artists such as Elvis Costello and Marshall Crenshaw (who portrayed Holly in the Ritchie Valens biopic La Bamba), and earlier in folk rock bands like The Byrds and The Turtles.

Clarityfiend 07:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be possible to edit the above para. so that it doesn't require references? On one hand, it's kind of hard to think of a 60s or early 70s band that did not in some way show hints or influence from Holly (just because he was there at the start). There were artists like Linda Rondstadt who scored a series of hits doing nothing but covers of Holly (e.g., That'll be the day, It's so easy...). On the other hand, I agree that it can become fairly speculative to say that he was more "cerebral" than Elvis. I agree with that claim by the way, but I can see where it might need to be toned down to match the tone of a wikI article. C d h 18:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That paragraph reads like it was lifted from someplace. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed it was - see here. --cholmes75 (chit chat) 19:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Was Buddy Holly an Atheist?
Holly's brother Larry is a Baptist minister and thinks that Holly never lost his faith. Of course he would want to believe that, but is there any hard evidence that he's wrong? I can't find anything on the net where Holly talks about his religious beliefs or lack of them. If there is evidence that he was an atheist, could we please have a source? Robert Arnold Conrad (talk) 12:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I deleted the cat entry; I can find no more evidence that he became an atheist any more than that he became a Muslim. -- Sig Pig  |SEND - OVER 03:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Error Regarding Holly's Death
Whoever wrote this article did not research Buddy's death accurately. Holly's body did not hit a tree following the crash -- that was Ronnie Van Zandt of Lynyrd Skynyrd. There are numerous photographs of the crash scene (all of which are viewable on the Web) and they plainly show the wreckage lying in the middle of a cornfield. Holly's body can clearly be seen just a few feet from the fusilage, with no trees anywhere in sight. Rusty1956 (talk) 04:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Provide a link that notes the wreckage, pls. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  18:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Link to crash photo -- http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/h/Buddy%20Holly/corn%20field.JPG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.46.199.238 (talk) 20:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the bit about the tree. The section is unreferenced. So, until a source is added to back up the claim, it doesn't belong. →Wordbuilder (talk) 20:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Is there provenance to add the crash scene image? It is notable. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  23:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Citations & References
See Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the  tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 04:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Two pictures of the headstone
Is there a good reason why we have two pictures of the headstone? Lars T. (talk) 17:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No. The top one is the better of the two. I'm going to remove the bottom one. I'm also going to edit the top one to take off the date stamp. →Wordbuilder (talk) 17:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Juno Soundtrack
Buddy Holly's song 'Dearest', is on the Juno Soundtrack CD. Should this be recorded in the article? If so, where would it go? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heytaytay99 (talk • contribs) 02:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not notable since it's just a use of one of his song. What the article does include is songs that are not his but pay homage to or otherwise reference him. Though, I'm thinking that section may need to be split to its own article if it gets much bigger (and its contents are properly sourced). Thanks for the question! →Wordbuilder (talk) 02:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The song 'Dearest' is not listed in the discography or anywhere else for that matter, does anyone know what year it was recorded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.233.144.249 (talk) 00:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't good enough to use as a Wikipedia source, but the info here claims it was originally recorded by Mickey and Sylvia on the B side of "There Oughta To Be A Law" in 1957. Recorded by Holly in '58 or '59. Here's some more info. →Wordbuilder (talk) 00:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Unclear reference
I assume that 'According to the Amburn book (p. 45), his public name changed from "Holley" to "Holly"...' refers to Ellis Amburn and Buddy Holly: A Biography, but would prefer to confirmation before fixing the article. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:42, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The Amburn book is notoriously unreliable. For example, it doesn't get the UK TV appearance right. Amburn says there was only the BBC in Britain at the tine, but Holly was on the rival ITV!

Jim Birkenshaw (talk) 21:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Very poor article
I'm new to this, but without wishing to offend anyone, this article seems very poor indeed. Is it worth having it at all?

I don't know how to grade it, but B seems generous.

Jim Birkenshaw (talk) 09:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Obviously the article is worth having. Holly is a notable subject. Your comments are too generalized to be helpful. If you have specific comments on the problems with the article, please list them. Or, be bold and edit the article. However, everything you add must be cited using reliable third party sources. →Wordbuilder (talk) 14:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

wire not tape
It was a wire recorder, not tape. Jim Birkenshaw (talk) 21:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

2009 movie "the day the music died"
I cannot find any movie with this subject matter being released 2-3-2009 or any reference to such being filmed. Please show more information, including actors, studio, link to previews.Faithlymisskitty (talk) 02:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC) Faithlymisskitty

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:24, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Buddy Holly phone call to Decca
MP3 of phone call. Details on blog.wfmu.org. Fascinating.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  21:11, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I heard that recording a few years back and forgot about it while I was working in the article. It's probably worth mention in the article that he taped a call. Being a Holly fan I was also truly amazed.-- GD uwen    Tell me!   17:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Reveals a lot about Holly. The intention behind the recording shows he doesn't want to be messed with, and would be prepared to go to court. He's even told the operator that he is recording the call so there can't be a later claim he did it secretly. It's no wonder he ended up having creative control over his own recordings - I don't think that was an accident.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  16:53, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * You couldn't even say he was ahead of his time regarding those things, by nowadays standards you can still say he was too clever. Not to mention his later work with producing and all, he was right on the spot for everything. As Keith Richards said, not bad for a guy from Lubbock, Texas.-- GD uwen    Tell me!   17:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Is talking about death directly inappropriate for a death section?
That's what I hear. I reverted that, because it sure seems appropriate (aside from maybe the pocket stuff). We have the leadup to his death and the aftermath, so "how he died" is naturally the central point. Or am I missing something? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * How do those grisly details from the coroners report warrant inclusion? We are supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not some two bit tabloid known for sensational blood and gore. How does it diminish the article by leaving it out? Moriori (talk) 02:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The details simply answer what happened to Buddy Holly when the plane crashed. Sure, a reader can assume it wasn't pretty, by the bit about the funeral afterward, but that's awfully vague, particularly for such a high-profile death. The omission is glaring, which is why I added it in the first place. I tried (I think succesfully) to keep it as dry as the report without copying it verbatim. Some deaths are inherently grisly, but that alone doesn't make them sensational. If there's a better way to word something, I'm open.
 * As for what he was wearing and carrying, that's more trivial, but he was something of a fashion icon, and it seemed like something that sort of stargazer may wonder. Sometimes small details become bigger when they're part of large events. Not particularly important, but there's a story going around that Paul McCartney received the golden cufflinks. So saying they're actually silver here is one small step for truth. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * What secondary reliable sources have published these details from a primary public record? In the 56 years since his death, what reputable biographies, newspapers and scholarly studies of his life and work have considered the details noteworthy enough to merit inclusion? 2600:1006:B140:CA3C:14E8:C473:9B00:7111 (talk) 04:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The Des Moines Register hosts a bunch of stuff from that day. Not sure if BuddyHollyArchives.com counts as reliable, but it discusses it. Gibson is known more for its guitars than its reporting, but there's this analysis.
 * Not entirely related, but here's what happened to his glasses. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:48, 1 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The Times-Republican notes all the trinkets (and even the coroner's fee). Smaller paper, but seems "legit". InedibleHulk (talk) 04:53, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Lead is too long
The lead is overly detailed and is too long. I know that the main editor is interested in taking this highly important article to GA but it won't pass unless the lead is dealt with. Best, jona   (talk)   23:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree. It's two paragraphs too long, and the answer isn't to push them together. I've done some trimming and took out material not needed up top. Jus  da  fax   18:49, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Birth name should be the first name mentioned in lead sentence.
Per MOS:BIRTHNAME and MOS:LEGALNAME, if the artist didn't legally change their name to their stage name, then their birth name is introduced first in the lead sentence. Other examples: Ringo Starr, Bono, and Flea (musician).

From Manual of Style/Biographies: ''Investigation may sometimes be needed to determine whether a subject known usually by a pseudonym has actually changed their legal name to match. Reginald Kenneth Dwight formally changed his name to Elton Hercules John early in his musical career. Where this is not the case, and where the subject uses a popular form of their name in everyday life, then care must be taken to avoid implying that a person who does not generally use all their forenames or who uses a familiar form has actually changed their name. Do not write, for example "John Edwards (born Johnny Reid Edwards, June 10, 1953) ...". It is not always necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name.''

Wash whites separately (talk) 18:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I am thinking WP:COMMONNAME applies here as opposed to this change.  Mlpearc  ( open channel ) 18:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * WP:COMMONNAME is talking about the title of the article, not the lead sentence. The paragraph from the Manual of Style above makes it very clear what the protocol should be if there is no evidence that the person legally changed their birth name. The title of the article should remain "Buddy Holly", yes—I never disputed this. But the first name introduced in the lead sentence should be his birth name, and his stage name afterwards, per MOS:LEGALNAME. Wash whites separately (talk) 18:45, 21 July 2016 (UTC)