Talk:Buddy Holly/Archive 2

Merger with Maria Elena Holly
The article Maria Elena Holly has previously been merged and turned into a redirect after consensus was reached in an AfD discussion. It was restored from some version recently. That may be a good faith edit and there seems to be some good content in that article. So I'll put this up for merge discussion instead of just reverting, but since there was already consensus it can probably be done quickly. Averell (talk) 22:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge. She is not notable aside from her marriage to Buddy Holly. →Wordbuilder (talk) 22:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge. The additional information will cloud the Buddy Holly article. →Wordbuilder (talk) 19:20, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose merge -- the inclusion of the Maria Elena information has brought digression and noise to this page. Details on her squabbles with a city decades after Holly's death add nothing to the reader's understanding of the subject of the article.  If this is notable enough to include here, it should be notable enough to stand alone as an article.  Jgm (talk) 23:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge Maria Elena as the owner of the rights to Buddy’s name, image, trademarks, and other intellectual property, has as the above User stated has in the last decade become notable be it because of her highly publized squabbles or not. The article certainly has nothing to do with wheather she is liked or not, but of her actions and there consequences. Tony the Marine (talk) 00:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge It's hardly ever the answer in Wikipedia. If there's a LOT of information that would clutter up the Holly article, keep it separate section here, but appropriate "summary length" (suggested title: Posthumous struggles for Holly's legacy) with the Marina Elena article as one of the the {main}s for it, as per WP:SS. And if you don't think a BLP of Marina is proper, you can name the subarticle as above, and keep it from being an inappropriate bio, while STILL keeping it a longer article about a separate issue. S  B Harris 02:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge It does not make any logic to add two separate people into one article, as other users have noted. -Signaleer (talk) 07:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge. The standalone article contains very little unique material, and all of the unique material is revelevant and appropriate for the main Buddy Holly article. Under WP:ONEEVENT it is doubtful if the article would stand up to an AfD, and if the decision was to remove the article, then it would be appropriate to leave a redirect in place.  SilkTork  *YES! 10:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge As evidenced by the news coverage which Ms Maria Elena has gained with the controveries involved she is notable. It would be a "SHAME" to cludder and tarnish Buddy Holly's bio. with such nonsense. Antonio Martin (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge. I agree with the above comments. Whilst she has made thenews in her own rights in recent years, there are plenty of people the world over who have been involved in arguments with town councils. She has only made the news because she was once married to Buddy Holly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.113.57.165 (talk) 21:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Voting in consensus' is within the registered Wikipedia community. This is done to keep users from from voting twice on an issue (once as regestered a user and once as an non-regertered user), thereby avoiding Sockpuppetre, Thank you. Antonio Martin (talk) 08:24, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * *Comment - This is the first time I hear that anonymous users are somehow banned from discussions (and it's not really a vote, anyway), therefore I remove the strikeout. In any case, it doesn't really make a difference here, the original comment is somewhat unclear. Averell (talk) 23:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - It seems that there is enough to warrant a separate article, especially if it's shown that she has notoriety of her own. In any case, it's clear that there's currently no consensus for a merge. So we keep the status quo and I close my request here. Averell (talk) 23:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Tidying up the article so it can be nominated for a GA
There's a lot of good material here, and with a bit of work this could be brought up to GA status. More referencing is needed, and then trimming and tidying some of the sections. More info is needed on the music and critical assessment. It's all possible. Probably doable in a month or two. Let's do it!  SilkTork  *YES! 10:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Footnote problem
Can someone figure out why footnotes in this article, numbered 14 and beyond, cannot be accessed? Dennis Fernkes (talk) 17:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * There was no ">" in the 13th reference. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Good job. I better get some glasses.Dennis Fernkes (talk) 01:25, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Tribute and popular culture material
Tribute and popular culture material tends to be problematic in a number of articles. I am moving some of the material here for discussion. Unsourced material shouldn't be returned to the article, and thought should be given to the importance of some of this material. That Kurt Cobain wore glasses like Buddy Holly is of dubious significance to the Buddy Holly article, though may be something worth mentioning on the Kurt Cobain article.  SilkTork  *YES! 12:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Holly, The Crickets and The Big Bopper are also depicted in a touring tribute act, Buddy Holly and The Cricketers . They recently appeared on BBC1's The One and Only.


 * In the 1994 film Pulp Fiction, a scene depicts John Travolta and Uma Thurman's characters dining at a fictional 1950s themed restaurant named Jack Rabbit Slims. The waiter, played by Steve Buscemi, is dressed as Buddy Holly.


 * The 1998 film Six-String Samurai, a surreal romp through an alternate-timeline post-apocalyptic America (Russia bombs and then invades the United States in 1957), features a rock-and-rolling martial arts hero named "Buddy" who sports familiar black horn-rimmed glasses and a tuxedo. The film follows Buddy's journey to "Lost Vegas", the last outpost of freedom in the world, to claim the crown of the recently-deceased King Elvis.


 * The Ramones video for the song "Do You Remember Rock n' Roll Radio" features an extended clip of Buddy Holly performing on the Ed Sullivan Show.


 * The 1992 Nirvana video for the song "In Bloom" is filmed in Black and white using 1950s era television cameras and shows the band appearing in 1950s attire (Including Kurt Cobain wearing Buddy Holly style glasses) in an apparent tribute.


 * In 2007, Frankie Muniz portrayed Buddy Holly in Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story.


 * I think that most tribute and pop culture material waters down an article. For instance, one star wearing a t-shirt dedicated to another star is non-notable. There are exceptions, such as Ronnie Van Zant wearing a shirt bearing a Neil Young album cover (considering the background set by the ostensibly negative reference to Young in the song "Sweet Home Alabama").
 * That was a bit rambling. Suffice it to say, tribute and pop culture material may have a place but not usually. →Wordbuilder (talk) 14:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I just read about Van Zant wearing a NY t-shirt. There are rumours that he is buried in the t-shirt, and that he was dug up to prove it!  SilkTork  *YES! 17:04, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

More popular culture material:


 * Books


 * The science fiction novel Buddy Holly Is Alive and Well on Ganymede, by Bradley Denton (ISBN 0-688-10822-9 and ISBN 0-380-71876-6), begins when television sets throughout the world suddenly begin broadcasting a concert by an apparently living Buddy Holly, who says he is on Ganymede.


 * In Soul Music, part of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, a character by the name of Imp y Celyn appeared as a bard-cum-guitar-playing-rocker from the fictional Cymric country of Llamedos. He became the Disc's greatest musician under the name Buddy in the Band with Rocks In, before dying in a cart crash (a reference to Buddy Holly as Imp's name translates as "bud of the holly").


 * In the alternate history series of novels Wild Cards, set in the 1980s, Buddy Holly is alive although he can't perform his classics any more because they were bought from him during difficult times. After some time as a lounge act performing covers of other people's songs, he is brought back for a benefit concert where he performs new material, and also manifests a Wild Card ability.


 * Television
 * "Oil", an episode of The Young Ones features Mike (Christopher Ryan) discovering Buddy Holly, alive and well and tangled in parachutes, in the attic of a house in London.


 * A fictional version of a young pre-fame Buddy Holly is a secondary character in an episode of Quantum Leap, working as a veterinarian's assistant. In the episode, Sam overhears Buddy strumming his guitar calling to a lost pig "Piggy, sooie" and realizes the identity of his heretofore anonymous assistant; Sam suggests Buddy change the words to "Peggy Sue".


 * The song "Everyday" is featured in the beginning of the LOST episode, "Cabin Fever", and in the Rob Reiner Film, Stand by Me.


 * In the X-Files episode "Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose" the character of Clyde Bruckman claims that his supernatural ability (to know precisely the circumstances under which everyone he touches will die) began when he became obsessed with the idea that The Big Bopper won his seat on the doomed flight with Holly as a result of a coin toss, that all the events in The Big Bopper's life lead him to a moment where his life and death depended on that toss. It is unclear whether the Bruckman character's erroneous substitution of The Big Bopper for Ritchie Valens in his account was a goof by the writers of the episode, or an intentional error meant to reflect on the mental state of Bruckman.


 * In the Simpsons episode "Colonel Homer", the manager of the recording studio fondly recalled how "Buddy Holly stood on this spot in 1958 and said, 'There is no way in hell I am gonna record in this dump.'" In a later episode, Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and The Big Bopper appear on an Itchy and Scratchy cartoon. Itchy sabotages the plane's engine, resulting in the crash that kills the musicians and pilot Scratchy. In yet another episode, Lisa discovers Sideshow Bob had won election as mayor through votes by her two dead cats, Snowball I and Snowball II, as well as Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and The Big Bopper (whose tombstone reads "good bye, baaaaby!!").


 * In an episode of the MTV series Clone High, Holly "guest stars", along with Ritchie Valens, The Big Bopper, and several other musicians who died in plane crashes.


 * Songs
 * A disc jockey from San Bernardino, Tommy Donaldson penned a spoken tribute to the dead singers called "Three Stars" and recorded it under the name Tommy Dee, backed by a group called Carol Kay and the Teen-aires. Eddie Cochran, Holly's good friend and fellow rock 'n' roll pioneer also recorded the song "Three Stars", but it was not released until after Cochran's own premature death, because he was too upset to allow it to be issued in his lifetime.


 * A 1980 Gyllene Tider song is called "Ska vi älska, så ska vi älska till Buddy Holly". ("If We Should Make Love, We Should Make Love (while listening) to Buddy Holly").


 * The Smithereens' song "Maria Elena" is a Buddy Holly tribute as sung to his widow.


 * Blink-182 has a song named "Peggy Sue" which is a tribute to Holly.


 * Phil Ochs famously sang a long tribute to Buddy Holly on the infamous Gunfight at Carnegie Hall album.


 * Mike Berry released a 1961 single called "Tribute to Buddy Holly". It was written by Geoff Goddard and produced by Joe Meek, who was a great Buddy Holly fan. In the USA, it was released on Coral, Buddy Holly's label.


 * Weezer's self-titled debut album features the band's popular single "Buddy Holly".


 * In 1985, the German rock band Die Ärzte sang a song named "Buddy Hollys Brille" (Buddy Holly's glasses), in which they discussed in a humorous way the question of what happened to Buddy Holly's glasses after his death.

I set out one night in June Stoned by the glow of the Texas moon Humming an old Buddy Holly tune called "Peggy Sue" With my favorite jeans And a cheap guitar I ran off chasing a distant star If Buddy Holly could make it that far I figured I could too
 * Mac Davis' "Happiness is Lubbock, Texas (In My Rearview Mirror)" also references Buddy Holly, with these lines:


 * Run-DMC's music video for the song "King of Rock" has an extended video on Buddy Holly performing on The Ed Sullivan Show.

Some of this material might be worked into articles on the artists themselves.  SilkTork  *YES! 18:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I added a reference to Bradley Denton's novel to the "popular culture" section merely because the plot is so clearly centered around this artist. The novel actually includes Holly as a focal character and catalyst within the book's plot.--Kulturvultur (talk) 22:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

"Holly Legacy" section
I deleted this section, (which is not really about Buddy Holly's musical or cultural legacy, but instead rather awkwardly details a squabble between Holly's widow and the town of Lubbock, Texas) because it is off-topic and adds nothing to the reader's understanding of the subject of the article. This material belongs in the Maria Elena Holly article if anywhere. Jgm (talk) 19:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I was in favour of the Maria Elena Holly article being merged here; however, having just looked at the deleted material I would agree that as we have a Maria Elena Holly article that it belongs more in that article than this one, and that the material has questionable encyclopedic value anyway. So your action gets a support from me.  SilkTork  *YES! 11:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

A light snow?
In this article, the weather in which Buddy Holly met his demise is described as a "light snow and gusty winds." The weather in the Ritchie Valens article is described as a "blinding snowstorm." How can the same air crash happen in two different levels of weather severity?
 * The Civil Aeronautics Board report says light snow. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Buddy Holley
His tombestone states Buddy Holley and not Holly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzgSFJEsg1I&feature=related

fast forward to the last 10 seconds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.182.80 (talk) 09:57, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * No need for that. There is an image in the article confirming your claim: File:Buddy holley headstone.jpg. His name was Charles Hardin Holley and he went by the nickname Buddy. Professionally, however, the spelling was Buddy Holly and that is how he is best known and why the article is named as it is. →Wordbuilder (talk) 14:31, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I (w)holly agree. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The wikipedia article on author Sam Clemens is called Mark Twain. And even on Clemon's grave marker, Mark Twain is in bigger letters. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SamuelC_Grave.jpg Numerous other examples abound of actors, authors, and others taking their stage names for everything. In Holley's case he didn't, but like Twain, if we have to pick one name to remember him by, the stage/artist name would be it. S  B Harris 22:24, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I understand now.(overlooked the pic) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.182.80 (talk) 08:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Bus
Parked outside José Enciso's Triple XXX Root Beer in Issaquah, Washington is what is at least claimed to be the bus from the "tour from hell". An Issaquah Press article (linked from photo description on Commons) indicates that there is some doubt about its provenance, so I hesitate to add it to the article. Someone else's call. - Jmabel | Talk 05:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

conspiracy theory
Wasn't there a rumour current at one time that Buddy holly had survived the plane crash but being badly injured and scarred had adopted a whole new identity and living some where else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.154 (talk) 09:22, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Almost certainly, but unless it's especially notable we don't want to pollute the article with such crackpot nonsense. 86.142.109.133 (talk) 00:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC).


 * See The Day the Music Died. Holly was identified by a friend who recognized him, but said he was glad the family didn't have to see his face. this makes it clear why. He was also fingerprinted by the coroner. There was some talk that perhaps The Big Bopper (J.P. Richardson) survived the crash only to die in the snow, but X-rays of his body almost 50 years after the crash show a pattern of massive fractures very like Holly's. These guys hit the ground obliquely and slid and rolled, at almost 200 mph, in a plane that was basically a tin can, not a sports car. They had just about the injuries you'd expect from that kind of crash (although no burns), but all surely died on impact. S  B Harris 02:27, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Dubious sentence
This sentence: "Up until the Beatles and Keith Richards, Holly was the only rock musician writing his own material." is simply not not true- other musicians were writing and having success with their own compositions well before the Beatles and Keith Richards, Billy Fury being a good example (UK#18 with 'Maybe Tomorrow' in 1959 and UK# 9 with 'Collette' in 1960, both self-written). 90.196.10.64 (talk) 23:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And let's not forget Chuck Berry and Little Richard. I'll take it out. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:56, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

King of Rock and Roll
Is Buddy Holly ever referred to as king of rock and roll? Is this something that should be considered for inclusion in this article? 174.30.246.212 (talk) 01:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Not that I'm aware of. That's usually bestowed on Elvis Presley. Honorific nicknames in popular music lists some other candidates, but Holly isn't one of them. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:01, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

67.86.22.51 (talk) 03:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)Not to sound rude, but Elvis Presley is much more popular than Buddy Holly, so I wouldn't think he'd ever have that nickname.

Article class
I was surprised to see the article rated C class. B class criteria and my evaluation of this article:
 * The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations where necessary. [[Image:Symbol confirmed.svg|18px]]
 * The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. [[Image:Symbol confirmed.svg|18px]]
 * The article has a defined structure. [[Image:Symbol confirmed.svg|18px]]
 * The article is reasonably well-written. [[Image:Symbol confirmed.svg|18px]]
 * The article contains supporting materials where appropriate. [[Image:Symbol confirmed.svg|18px]]
 * The article presents its content in an appropriately understandable way. [[Image:Symbol confirmed.svg|18px]]

Unless anyone can provide some compelling evidence to the contrary, I think this article ought to be raised to B Class. -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 02:30, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems at least B Class to me. I'd actually suggest a good article review.   ~DC  We Can Work It Out 02:42, 6 October 2010 (UTC)