Talk:Buffalo, New York/Archive 3

Moving towards GA and FA status
This article is, let's face it, crappy. As a Buffalonian it really depresses me. It was so bad that it convinced me rewriting the introduction was worth 5 hours of my time to redo, lol. I got a little less encyclopedic and more poetic at the end, lol, and I knew it wouldn't stand for very long. The end of the introduction does still need a modern day rap-up though that shows where Buffalo is headed.

I think what this page really needs is some dedicated people with writing ability to take all the raw info we have on the page and whip it into some sort of readable form. Not just editing, but whole-scale rewriting: taking the facts and citations we already have and organizing them in some coherent form, because as it is it just reads like a conglomeration of unrelated facts.

I think what we need is each section wholly rewritten by a single author into coherence. This takes several hours, of course, but I think if we do it little by little it will put this page back on track.

I'm very interested in hearing what any other interested parties think about this plan. With a little work from all of us, this page can get back on track.

Willseychew (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Does anyone really care what roads go through Buffalo? This seems like unnecessary information to me.

Buffalo Schools
The dropout rate for Buffalo schools is way more than 8%. Where did this number come from? --BufEd (talk) 14:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

"Beau Fleuve" theory
Must we perpetuate the bogus "Beau Fleuve" name origin story? Just because everyone repeats it doesn't make it true. The phrase appears nowhere in French explorer accounts, as argued by Buffalo historian Austin Fox back in the 1980s. Today you can see for yourself. Go to Google Books, search on the phrase in French-language works, and see if you can find it in any works about North America from the period of French exploration. The Beau Fleuve theory has no basis in primary source accounts.Guybrarian (talk) 02:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia vs. Tourist Guide
I know there are people who are proud of Buffalo. If you find yourself writing something that sounds like tourism - oh, like say about Mighty Taco - then it's best left to the BufWiki that was created recently. --Fastslack (talk) 23:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:PrefSymbol-Ishikawa.png
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Importance scale for wikiproject cities
Being from Albany I dont care much for what goes on in Buffalo but I do think the wikiproject importance rating for the Buffalo article should be mid instead of low, and I am going to raise it to such. According to the wikiproject's page on importance Buffalo meets the criteria of a mid.Camelbinky (talk) 03:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Baseball Park Mismatch
The Under-picture caption refers to the Baseball park as "Coca Cola Stadium", while the Photo very clearly has the name "Dunn Tire Park" on the back wall.

Anyone got a new picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.177.200 (talk) 22:58, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no new picture yet. Hell, they just this week got all the instances of "Dunn Tire Park" off the stadium. Jc121383 (talk) 05:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Splitting to another article
The recent split of an entire section of this article to Culture of Buffalo, New York was not properly done. Several recommended or required actions (see Splitting) were not performed: Item 1 in particular is a severe problem and desperately needs correcting ASAP. We may need administrative help.
 * 1) The edit summary for the creation of the new article did not indicate it was a split (absolutely required for GFDL reasons).
 * 2) The edit summary for the removal of the content from this article did not indicate it was being split (required).
 * 3) The main article was not left with a summary section (required).
 * 4) The split was not discussed here on the talk page (optional).

-- Powers T 12:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Due to lack of comments here, I have nominated the split article for deletion: Articles for deletion/Culture of Buffalo, New York. Powers T 23:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Not in Buffalo
Recently, Shinerunner (talk) and I added hidden comments in the education section of the article in an effort to stave off the frequent addition of various schools that are not within Buffalo's boundaries. I'm seeking input as to the best way to convey to editors those institutions that are frequently added but do not belong in this article. Currently, the message reads: When adding to this section please only add schools that are physically within the borders of the City of Buffalo. My thoughts were that perhaps this message is insufficient, because (1) not all editors are familiar with the corporate boundary, and some schools are a stone's throw from the border, and (2) some editors believe that having a Buffalo ZIP code qualifies a location as being in the city. My suggestions for improvement include (a) using the hidden comment to refer editors to a "do-not-add list" on the talk page, or (b) perhaps placing directly in the appropriate sections of the article as a hidden comment those schools which are not to be added. Please share your thoughts. --JBC3 (talk) 00:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * They're frequently added because they're often considered to be in Buffalo. Frankly, I don't see it as a huge problem to list them as Buffalo schools.  And if you really don't want them there, just remove them when they pop up; an HTML comment isn't likely to stop anyone.  Powers T 13:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, they do get removed when they pop up. Thank you for sharing your opinion of the comments. To follow up on your statement about it not being a problem to list them as Buffalo schools, where then would you "draw the line" on including content in this article if not the corporate boundary of the city? The article is about, after all, the city of Buffalo, not the Buffalo area, Buffalo ZIP code, or perceived extent of Buffalo-dom. --JBC3 (talk) 16:03, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well it's a matter of which schools are often referred to as being Buffalo schools. We can refer to reliable sources as we do with most things.  I just see the list as not so much "education inside the city limits" as "education strongly associated with Buffalo".  See Rochester, New York for an example.  Powers T 20:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

While it may be true that St. Joseph's Collegiate Institute is physically located outside of the city of Buffalo, it is widely accepted to be one of two major boys' schools in Buffalo. SJCI is a part of Buffalo's culture, and to say that it is not a Buffalo private school is an insult to the Collegiate, its alumni, faculty, and staff. As for it's physical placement outside the Buffalo School District, any student at the Collegiate can tell you with certainty that the campus is located on the District's border, and that were it across the street from it's present location, it would be in the Buffalo School District. Now, while it may be true that these students are only aware of that fact because it causes them to go to school during the winter while the rest of the "Buffalo" schools are closed due to weather, the fact remains. Thus ends my petition for the addition of SJCI to the list of private schools on the Wikipedia page for the city of Buffalo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.204.122.94 (talk) 04:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What you fail to recognise is that you are using the term "Buffalo" to speak about Western New York, or maybe Erie County. SJCI is physically located outside of the city and has nothing to do with the City of Buffalo or its school district and therefore makes no sense to include in an article about the city.  I would recommend adding a schools section to the Western New York article if you really feel that strongly. Tommycw1 (talk) 03:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's very common for institutions with a Buffalo mailing address to consider themselves to be strongly associated with "Buffalo". I mentioned this above but you never replied.  This has nothing to do with Western New York, or even all of Erie County -- it's only institutions that are very close to the actual city borders, and an argument can easily be made for inclusion.  Powers T 12:31, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Your opinion here is very interesting, however baseing the inclusion of data into an article simply on someone's OPINION is not very scientific or accurate. I'm not sure how long you have been editing or reading the Buffalo, NY article, but the reason for this hardline stance is that everyone has a different opinion as to what is "Buffalo".  At one point this article has included colleges like Alfred State College, Genesseo, Brockport, et al that are up to several counties and several hours away from Buffalo.  This happened since many people from Buffalo go to those schools, people BELIEVE that they have a strong Buffalo connection.  People also added high schools from the region, adding schools like Kennmore, Tonawanda and more 1st ring suburbs.  Next came the 2nd ring suburbs and the rest.  The fact is that this article is written to explain what is physically located within the borders of a particular city, not its region or even what is related to it.  It is completely without logic to start including things that are not within those borders simply because of someone FEELS that it is somehow connected.


 * You may FEEL like html comments will not prevent someone from adding somethign they think should be added, you may be right, however we have been batteling this for more then a year now. If you go and look at the history of this article you will see that almost weekly someone tries adding another school that is not actually in the city.  The html comments have slowed this down quite a bit, but not enough and that is why more were added to make a point.Tommycw1 (talk) 12:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * But you have not yet made a case for why we should use the city limits as a dividing line. There are many options beyond the hard-line approach you have taken, but you seem unwilling to consider them.  Powers T 13:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think I need to make a case for using the city limits of The City of Buffalo as the dividing line for what is in an article who's topic is The City of Buffalo. It is intrinsically defined by the nature of the article.  If we begin putting things in articles that are not related to them we will end up with a mess of information.  Should the city of Erie, PA be included in an article on New York state simply because it is near the border?  Should we include schools located in Fort Erie, ON since they are just on the other side of the river?  Just because there are other opinions out there doesn't mean that they are rational, scientific, or correct. Tommycw1 (talk) 15:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In other words, your way is right, and you're not interested in listening to any other options. Way to build consensus, Tommy!  Powers T 16:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Tommy here. Of course he thinks his opinion is right or why would it be his opinion in the first place?  Everyone naturally thinks their opinion is right and naturally isn't interested in listening to any other opinions.  If you thought your opinion was wrong and still held it, you'd have to be insane or something.


 * If you want to include schools that are "strongly associated with the City of Buffalo", then put them in the article about the Buffalo metropolitan area. Thegryseone (talk) 21:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense -- they're associated with the city, not with the MSA. Why would we put them in the MSA article if that's the case?
 * Look, here's the way I look at it. Who says that the list of schools in this article have to only be schools located within the city limits?  This article is about the city of Buffalo, yes.  But part of learning about that city is learning about all of the institutions and organizations that contribute to it, not just the ones that may be physically located within the city limits.  Now, we could come to a consensus that we want to limit the list to just those things inside the city boundaries, but I see no reason to simply assume that interpretation is correct, and to go to ridiculous lengths to defend the implementation of that interpretation.  There are alternatives that are just as valid.  If a school is literally across the street from the city line, its students and nearby community cannot help but have an effect on the city.  If the students consider themselves Buffalonians, and the school is found on lists of Buffalo schools, and its mailing address is Buffalo, New York, why shouldn't we strongly consider including them?  Powers T 22:27, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have to say that I agree with Tommy and Thegryseone on this issue. The article about the Buffalo metropolitian area would be a better fit for these schools. There should be a template message linking the metropolitan article at the top of the school section as well. Oh, by the way LtPowers, it wasn't the messages causing the extra whitespace in the article it was extra spaces between the messages.Shinerunner (talk) 22:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, we have to keep in mind the 3RR rule before this gets out of hand.Shinerunner (talk) 23:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've only reverted twice, and then 24 hours apart, there's not even remotely the chance of an edit war developing here. Anyway, I would like to suggest a compromise.  It seems undeniable to me that these schools are strongly associated with the city of Buffalo.  The MSA article is hardly an appropriate replacement, as it covers several counties, including far-flung areas that have no relation with these inner-suburb schools.  Instead, why not include two lists in this article?  One list includes those institutions within the city's boundaries, while the other list would include schools that are usually considered "Buffalo schools" but are not within the city limits.  I would think that that would satisfy everyone.  Powers T 01:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I completely disagree with the compromist suggested to create two lists. This is silly and will lead to creating many double lists throughout the article.  Furthermore, I don't understand your assertion that this school somehow associated with the City of Buffalo.  Correct me if I am wrong, however I would suspect that if a child lives in Tonawanda, that child would be allowed to enroll in the school?  How about if they live in East Aurora?  How about if they live in California, but their parents fly them into the area every week and live in a hotel in Cheektowaga?  If that is the case then I don't see how this school is tied to the City of Buffalo any tighter then it is tied to Tonawanda, East Aurora, California or Cheektowaga.  LT, I also think that you are showing again that you do not understand the difference between the Buffalo area and the city of Buffalo.  People who live in Tonawanda or East Aurora probably would describe themselves as "buffaloians" if asked by someone from out of town, because someone from out of town would have never heard of Tonawanda.  People do this because they are from the Buffalo Area.  Now these same people would definately say that they do not live in the city, no, they live in East Aurora or Lancaster or whereever.  Please don't tell someone from Lancaster that they are from Depew, or someone from Tonawanda they are from NT!  They will be very upset!  The truth of the matter is that some of the schools population is likely from the City of Buffalo and some of the population is likely from other towns and villages thoughout *THE BUFFALO AREA*.  This article is about The City of Buffalo, all things not withing its legal limits, no matter how close, should be included in the article on Western New York.  That is where people should go to learn about the metropolitan area.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommycw1 (talk • contribs) 02:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You would think so, wouldn't you? Thegryseone (talk) 01:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, you wouldn't. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA article is very lightly used, because few people search for it and few articles link to it.  By removing schools that are considered "Buffalo schools" by reliable sources, and relegating them to an MSA article that includes areas as far away as Lockport and Newfane, we would be implying the absence of a connection that clearly exists.  These are not "Buffalo-Niagara area schools," they are "Buffalo schools".  I'm not suggesting schools in Blasdell or Springville should be in this article, just ones that actually have ties to the city.
 * There are numerous instances already in the article of facts and institutions not located within the city limits. This is entirely reasonable.  Why schools should be an exception is not at all clear.  Powers T 11:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You're saying that very few articles link to it. Well, that can easily be changed. Thegryseone (talk) 18:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What is this supposed tie to Buffalo that you keep referring to? This school is simply another private school that happens to be located near Buffalo.  How is this different then St Mary's in Lancaster?  Should we add that here too?  I think that you are losing your objectivity due to some personal connection to this school.  Facts here are easy to see:  A private school with no connection to the Buffalo public school system or otherwise the City of Buffalo, other then being located in a suburb in the Buffalo area shoudl not be included in an article in The City of Buffalo.  If you don't want to add this school to the Buffalo area article simply because no one reads it, perhaps you should spend time improving that article and making it more sutible.  Another suggestion is to add SJCI to the article on the Town of Tonawanda, its physical location, oh yes it is already listed there as it should be.  I don't think that saying "no one reads the article" to which a piece of data belongs really is good rational to add data to an article to which it doesn't belong.  It makes me wonder what your motivation to add SJCI to the City of Buffalo article is.  Do you have some connection to SJCI?  Are you trying to use Wikipedia to advertise SJCI?  SJCI does make money right?Tommycw1 (talk) 11:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I think there are two different problems here. Firstly, that you can't put a school that is not in Buffalo into a list that is specifically a list of schools in Buffalo. It has been suggested that two lists be made, one with schools in the city and one with schools outside but strongly tied to or considered to be in the city. Thus we arrive at the second problem, which is where to "draw the line". This is where I agree with Tommcw1, Shinerunner, and Thegryseone. I feel the only connection many of these schools seem to have with Buffalo, other than incidental close proximity to the corporate line, is their desire to be associated with Buffalo. Including them in this article to falsely portray them as Buffalo schools is quite unencyclopedic, a possible COI, and gives undue weight to the "outside" schools. --JBC3 (talk) 03:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree that that might be the only connection. There is also the connection drawn by the general public due to the mailing addresses being "Buffalo, New York" -- it's well accepted that a lot of communities unify around the similarity of their postal addresses (see, e.g., Fairport, New York versus Perinton, New York).  There is also the connection drawn by the economic, educational, and societal impact the schools have on the city proper.  And there's also the connection drawn between the schools and the larger concept of "Buffalo" that expands beyond the cities borders; many people throughout Erie County consider themselves Buffalonians, even if they rarely set foot within the city limits.  It is not for us to tell them that they are not.  Powers T 14:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * While I personally disagree with your position and feel most of what you suggest to be original research, I have personally seen articles that contain "misconception" sections that address popularly held but false beliefs that are verifiable in reliable sources. I don't know that something like that could be done here without giving undue weight or including original research or synthesis (not verifiable). Perhaps it is more productive to look beyond principle and talk specifically. How, specifically, would one present this information and what sources would one use, assuming a consensus were willing to entertain the idea of allowing "outside" schools into this article? Pick any school you'd like as an example. --JBC3 (talk) 14:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see where anything complex is required. Take Rochester, New York, for instance.  The only university within the city limits is the UofR (plus a downtown branch of MCC).  But the section clearly introduces the scope of the list as "The city and its suburbs", and it doesn't exclude institutions like RIT just because it's no longer within the city limits.  Powers T 15:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The editors involved here so far don't seem to want another Rochester. --JBC3 (talk) 16:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Simply because the folks who edited the Rochester article do not understand the difference between the City proper and the Greater Rochester Area does not mean that we need to follow that example.


 * I also completely disagree with your assertion of any kind of tie to Buffalo. The same people that you refer to who are really suburbanites that call themselves "buffalonians" would freak out if the City of Buffalo decided to annex them as Toronto annexed its suburbs.  If this were ever proposed, you would find out quickly that people from Amherst or Kenmore or Tonowanda don't really consider themselves "buffalonians".  The mailing address agruement you use if just silly.  Neatly ALL of Tonawanda and Kenmore use a Buffalo mailing address, not just SJCI and not just places across the street.  Look at the Ken-Ton school district website |&NodeID=872 communitywalk.com even their public schools' addresses are listed as Buffalo.  Clearly we shouldn't include them right?  Any other tie that you claim be it economic, educational, and societal are the same for Tonawanda, the town in which SJCI is located.  This is why is belongs there, in that article, where it is ALREADY listed.  There is no greater tie between SJCI and Buffalo then there is between SJCI and any other city, town, village, or hamlet that it is not located within.


 * I do not agree to any consensus with including schools from outside of Buffalo in an article about Buffalo. When we went through this with Colleges, a section was created in the Western New York article.  This is a great example of how this should be handled.  If Western New York seems to be too large of a geographical area to list every little high school, perhaps you can expand the Buffalo Niagara Region article or even the Buffalo-Niagara_Falls_metropolitan_area article.  This is your choice, however the bottom line is that SJCI is not part of The City of Buffalo in any way and should never be included in an encyclopedia article about The City of Buffalo.


 * In order to conclude this discussion, and since no one else here has agreed with LTPowers confusion between the City of Buffalo and the Buffalo Region, I move to call it a concensus to only list schools physically located within The City of Buffalo in this article who's topic is The City of Buffalo.
 * Tommycw1 (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

List
The following schools are not in Buffalo city limits:
 * Buffalo Academy of the Sacred Heart is located in the town of Amherst, New York. USGS map. --JBC3 (talk) 19:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Daemen College is located in the town of Amherst, New York. USGS map of Daemen College or NYSDOT map Q8.--JBC3 (talk) 18:23, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Park School of Buffalo is located in Amherst, New York. USGS map of The Park School of Buffalo. --JBC3 (talk) 11:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Saint Francis High School is located in Athol Springs. --JBC3 (talk) 00:29, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * St. Joseph's Collegiate Institute says it is located in Buffalo, New York, but it is referring to its postal address. Though it does have a Buffalo ZIP code, it is physically located outside the city in the town of Tonawanda. See USGS map of SJCI or NYSDOT map Q8. --JBC3 (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Mount Saint Mary Academy is loacated in Kenmore Tommycw1 (talk) 11:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

RFC: What schools should be listed?
Should geographical boundaries determine which schools should be included in a city's article? Shinerunner (talk) 23:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Schools listed should only be those within the Buffalo city limits. Difficult cases that arise from such schools that have Buffalo in in the name or mere postal addresses within Buffalo should not be included.  Examples to support this include precedents set by sites on states such as Kansas, which does not mention Kansas City (which is in Missouri).  ClockSpire (talk) 15:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your opinion, but why do you feel that way? Powers T 16:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "Buffalo, NY", the topic of this article must not be confused with "The Buffalo Area", "Western New York", "Buffalo-Niagara" or any other term that defines the metropolitan district. Understanding that this article is written about "The City of Buffalo" and not "The Buffalo Area" is the key to understand what is to be included.  Schools to be included in an article about The City of Buffalo are intrinsically defined by the nature of the article's topic.  We should not include any schools that are not physically within the boundaries of the City of Buffalo in an article who's topic is The City of Buffalo.  Doing so misrepresents what is truly part of the city, is unencyclopedic, gives unfair treatment to some schools, and causes a "where do you draw the line" problem.  Any schools that are part of "The Buffalo Area" can be listed in one of the many articles that discuss the larger Buffalo area.Tommycw1 (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If an article is about a city, not a metro area, then the schools listed should be within the city limits. There might be valid exceptions to this—for instance, if the only community college that served a city were outside the city limits, it would make sense to list it (with its location in parentheses). Rivertorch (talk) (uninvolved editor, came here from RFC) 09:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but why? If a school is influenced by, and has influence upon, a city, isn't it relevant to that city's article?   Powers T 13:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I take your point, but consider it in terms of topical boundaries as well as geographical boundaries. Where do we draw the line? If a plurality of college students from Hypothetical City X attend Public University Y fifty miles away, do we list it? What if it's 150 miles away? Spheres of influence rarely have sharply delineated edges; there's a continuum. At some point, we have to say something is no longer part of the city, and in an article that appears to be about a city, not a metropolitan area, it makes sense to draw the line at the city limits because that's where the city officially ends. As a general rule, that seems pretty straighforward and logical. Exceptions could be considered on a case-by-case basis, but they should result from verifiably exceptional circumstances. Rivertorch (talk) 18:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yet it still seems absurd to me to say that a school just outside the city limits is not at all relevant to the city, while it is relevant to the entire three-county metropolitan area. (Or, to take this beyond just Buffalo, consider Rochester's six-county metro area.)  Powers T 20:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The school IS relevant to the metro area, because THAT IS WHERE IT IS LOCATED. The school is NOT RELEVANT to the City of Buffalo because THAT IS NOT WHERE IT IS.  I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall here.  I have racked my brain trying to come up with some other way to say this because what I have said time and time again just doesn't seem to be getting through to you.  However I guess that I am just not intelligent enough to come up with another way to make you understand.  SJCI has no more influence on the City of Buffalo then does any other school in the metro area.  There is simply no reason why it, or ANY other school physically outside of The City of Buffalo should ever be listed in an article on The City of Buffalo. LTpowers seems to be the only one here with his opinion that including schools that have nothing to do with The City of Buffalo should be included in this article.  How long do we leave this RFC open?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommycw1 (talk • contribs) 01:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Likewise, I can't seem to communicate my questions clearly enough to get an answer from you. Why is physical location the only criterion for relevance?  Are you seriously claiming that the Royalton-Hartland Central School District has as much relevance to the city of Buffalo as St. Joseph's Collegiate Institute does?  Powers T 13:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Neither is located within the City of Buffalo and neither has any other connection to The City of Buffalo.  The only difference is that because SJCI is a private school and has no school district of its own, there likely are some city residence that attend SJCI, but there also may be some Royalton, some Tonawanda, some East Aurora, residence who attend as well.  SJCI is no more connected to The City of Buffalo that anywhere else.Tommycw1 (talk) 03:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * At this point, consensus in this RFC and the thread above is for inclusion only by geographical boundary. However, I think that we should let the RFC run the full thirty days so that there are no comments that there was a rush to close. Shinerunner (talk) 10:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is physical location the only criterion for relevance? Powers T 14:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The city limits are a bright line, and if the schools are simply listed as they are currently then schools without campuses within the city limits should be excluded. The section Boston for that city may provide guidance for the inclusion of neighboring schools with explanatory text if the school has a "major presence in the city". Sswonk (talk) 12:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you; this is exactly the kind of thing about which I'm talking. Powers T 14:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually this article kind of proves my point. 1st FTA: "Boston's reputation as the Athens of America derives in large part from the teaching and research activities of more than 100 colleges and universities located in the Greater Boston Area, with more than 250,000 students attending college in Boston and Cambridge alone".  So the article is trying to describe a reputation that Boston has due to the schools located withing its metropolitan area.  Buffalo has no such reputation connected to high schools and therefore makes no sense to include SJCI or any other non-city high school.  2nd FTA: "3000 students of racial minorities attend participating suburban schools through the Metropolitan Educational Opportunity Council, or METCO."  So Boston's suburban high schools DO have a connection to the city through this METCO program, but they still do not feel the need to list ANY of them.  The only high schools listed of the 140+ in the city are a few that are note worthy.  Furthermore, SJCI does not have any such "major presence in the city".  It has no campus in the city and does not contribute in any way to the culture of The City of Buffalo any more then it contributes to the culture of Tonawanda, which is where it is located and already listed in wikipedia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommycw1 (talk • contribs) 12:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is physical location the only criterion for relevance? And why can't you figure out how to sign your own posts?  Powers T 14:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's not resort to personal attacks here. What does him not signing his posts have to do with his argument? Thegryseone (talk) 15:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll bite at the troll bait: I agree totally with Thegryseone above. Also, any school outside of the boundaries is not a Buffalo school. This is an article about the city of Buffalo. Therefore, in the list of Buffalo schools, any school not in Buffalo, should not be on a list of Buffalo Schools. Its just that simple. Question: why don't you list the XX school which is located in Zimbabwe? Answer: It is not a Buffalo School. This is an article about Buffalo. etc. ..... ok, if a school outside the city limits has a significant REFERENCED impact on the history or culture of Buffalo, then that should be mentioned, certainly, but it should not be in a list of Buffalo schools. PAR (talk) 15:58, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the bit about signing; it just struck me as odd. But PAR, you didn't answer my question.  You simply restated the premise: that the dividing line is based on the geography.  My question, which no one has answered, is why geography?  Why not cultural boundaries?  Why not ZIP code boundaries?  Why not boundaries based on how these schools refer to themselves, and how reliable sources refer to them?  No one calls a school in Zimbabwe a "school in Buffalo", but certainly it seems likely that some of these schools are referred to as precisely that.  They're covered in the Buffalo News, their mail is addressed to Buffalo, New York, and when asked where they work by someone from outside the region they would say "at a school in Buffalo".  Why draw the line at the city limits?  Powers T 17:16, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, your question, which you've now asked innumerable times, has been answered. The answers may not satisfy you, but they're there nonetheless. I'll try one more time to clarify what I see as the issue, and then I'm out of here (being an uninvolved gnomish type who wants to stay that way).
 * As an encyclopedia, WP must set boundaries on what information belongs in what article. Otherwise, we have chaos. In order to maintain NPOV, the boundaries we set cannot be arbitrary; they must be determined objectively, based on definite and verifiable criteria, and they should be consistent from article to article. When exceptions are made (as they must be on occasion, a foolish consistency being what it is), there has to be a damn good reason. An exceptional reason. Now, you ask why not
 * cultural boundaries? Because those aren't sharply delineated and are, in fact, highly subjective. Where does the sphere of cultural influence of any city end? No one will agree on that. Neither maps nor GPS devices will be of any help, and various sources will disagree.
 * ZIP code boundaries? Because they are drawn to facilitate mail delivery, not define where city boundaries begin and end. Because, for the purposes of mail delivery, they override the city listed, allowing individuals and institutions to list cities adjacent to the ones primarily associated with their ZIP codes (for various reasons, including attempting to increase prestige). Because they were implemented only a few decades ago, are adjusted periodically and in fact are subject to change at any time, and may well be supplanted by a different system in the near future. In other words, they're impermanent, imprecise, and irrelevant.
 * how schools refer to themselves? That would be relevant in articles on the schools themselves (although such articles need to make clear that self-referenced location differs from actual location). It cannot be relevant here because it's not objective, it's subject to abuse, and it's generally unencyclopedic. Anhone can say they are somewhere they're not or even something they're not, but that doesn't mean that an encyclopedia should follow their lead.
 * how reliable sources refer to them? Fails the objectivity test again. If a school persuades the writer of a feature article in a newspaper to describe it as a "Buffalo school," does that constitute a reliable source saying the school is in Buffalo? It can be argued both ways. There is all kinds of gray area here that would lead to unnecessary imprecision and equivocation, whereas using corporate boundaries avoids that problem. Rivertorch (talk) 19:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * But then how to solve the attendant problem of leaving out schools that have clear and strong associations with the city? Buffalo is a little out of my element, so I'll move down the Thruway for an example -- how does it make any sense whatsoever to exclude RIT from the list of colleges associated with Rochester?  It's in Henrietta, yes, but it's the ROCHESTER Institute of Technology, always listed along with the UofR, and in anything except for the most specific references, it's referred to as being in Rochester.  It's a major contributor to the local economy, and that includes the city, not just the town of Henrietta.  Powers T 22:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * AGAIN and AGAIN you ask the same question OVER and OVER again. You say that they were never answered, however they just were not answered to your liking.  We've already answered this one and perhaps you should re-read the above commentary.  I understand that you do not grasp the concept of Buffalo as a region vs. Buffalo as a city, however that does not change the fact that this article is written about The City of Buffalo and not the Buffalo Region (however you want to define it).  SJCI has ABSOLUTELY ZERO influence on the culture of the City of Buffalo.  I have never met anyone who went there, never met anyone who sent their children there and quite frankly never heard of the school before this silly argument.  Now, I've lived in the Buffalo area my entire life and your self admitted lack of knowledge about Buffalo seems to show that you are really not an expert on the culture of The City of Buffalo so quite frankly I don't understand why you are even making this arguement.  Showing how little cultural influance that SJCI could possible have as well as speaking to your simile you were trying to draw to RIT, SJCI's wikipedia page shows that there was a lousy 765 students over 4 grades enrolled last year!  Even if your question about Rochester made sense, I don't think that drawing a simile between a high school with 765 students and a University with 20,000+ students, facility, and staff really holds any water.  You are the only one here that seems to not be able to understand this idea, but you keep stating some type of culture connection.  Just because SJCI is dumb enough to put "Buffalo, NY" on their logo when they are actually located in Tonawanda, doesn't mean that they belong in this article.  Also, referring to your earlier comment, teachers from East Aurora would also tell someone from out of town that they teach in a Buffalo school.  They do this because precision does not matter in a simple conversation and it is not likely that out-of-towners would have ever heard of East Aurora or Tonawanda.  This proves nothing.  Cheerfully signed Tommycw1 (talk) 04:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've re-read the above discussions. I see myself asking "why is it only geographical location that matters?" and not really getting a clear answer until Rivertorch's reply.  This has never been about one specific school; I don't know anything about any of those schools on the list above.  My point is and always has been that institutions (whether educational or commercial or industrial or what have you) can have an influence on a major population center even if they aren't physically located within that center's boundaries.  If these schools are not appropriate in that context, then fine; what I object to is the principle that it's simply not possible for them to have a connection.  I simply cannot fathom how you can possible draw that bright line and say that nothing outside the city's borders is relevant to the city.   Powers T 13:25, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I provided the link to Boston hoping you would see the difference between a "major presence" and a "proximity". I think you have confused the difference between a school having an "association" with a city and having a "presence" within a city. Association is subjective, it can also be ambiguous. A school can be associated by popular opinion, by conversational inclusion and by shorthand use in popular media. The famous skater Nancy Kerrigan was associated with Boston often by commentators during the Olympic games but her home town was Stoneham, a suburb several miles to the north of Boston. However, a "presence" as used in the linked Boston article means that a portion of the teaching facilities and physical structure is or for a long time was located within the city limits of Boston. MIT is included in the paragraph containing Harvard and Tufts, which educate students at their own facitlites within the city limits, because it moved out of Boston onto the opposite shore of the Charles River in the early twentieth century. Although other institutions near Boston may be associated with the city, they are not specifically mentioned in that section of the city's article. I hope that helps everyone understand where I was suggesting guidance on the RFC might be found. Sswonk (talk) 13:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I know Boston even less well than I do Buffalo, so I wasn't familiar with the criteria that went into writing that article. I do note, however, that the Boston article doesn't even try to create an exhaustive list of anything, whereas this article does.  Scale may have something to do with that.  Powers T 14:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The Boston article doesn't try an exhaustive list, rather the section is hatnoted with seealso to List of colleges and universities in metropolitan Boston. Sswonk (talk) 18:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok Lt Powers, you've admitted that you have no knowledge of the schools that you feel should be included. How about providing some references on how they influence the City of Buffalo or is this just about your "feelings" on the matter that we're having this discussion? Right now I could probably cite articles that would show that the closing of Bethlehem Steel next door in Lackawanna had a definite negative effect on the City of Buffalo from the loss of jobs, etc. yet it's not even mentioned in the Buffalo article. I hope that this isn't an exercise in getting the last word. Shinerunner (talk) 14:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Like I said, this isn't about the specifics, and I apologize if I ever gave that impression. It's the principle; several editors here seem to be saying that it's patently impossible for any institution outside the city limits to have sufficient impact on the city to be worthy of inclusion in the article.  But then, this article does mention (for example) First Niagara and Citigroup as having HQ (regional HQ for the latter) in the area, even though they're not in the city proper.  Powers T 14:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that the schools entries is the area of concern for the other editors due to repeated changes. As to the cited companies, I'm not defending their inclusion. They should also be under the same standards used for the schools (though they may have a part of their operations in the city) and that will probably be the next lenghty discussion. An example of my earlier point is this link . By the standard that you are advocating, Buffalo schools should be featured on all ring suburb articles. The noted problems with the Buffalo school system have more than likely moved some border residents to send their children to the suburban schools. As well as the opposite situation - some suburban students attending St. Mary's School for the Deaf as an example. Shinerunner (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I've asked for advice at WT:WikiProject_Schools. - Dank (push to talk) 21:28, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (response from RFC listing) Surely if a school is in Amherst, it should appear in an article on Amherst; etc. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That part is not in dispute. Powers T 20:10, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

User:LtPowers, why not edit the Buffalo-Niagara Falls metropolitan area article to include a list of schools in the greater area? I'm sure no editor would have a problem with your including in this article's "Education" section a link to Buffalo-Niagara Falls metropolitan area's "Education" section. This would allow the discerning reader to easily find information regarding all schools relevant to the Buffalo area without stretching the mandate of this page, which concerns itself with the city of Buffalo. Just my two cents. JosiahHenderson (talk) 20:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The metropolitan area extends much farther than the central area considered distinctly "Buffalonian". I don't see Newfane schools are being particularly relevant to Buffalo.  Powers T 11:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In addition, the "Buffalo-Niagara Falls metropolitan area" and similar articles about MSAs and CSAs are used for defining the census term, not for including culture, history, education etc. sections. Doing so would also run the risk of creating a content fork. Sswonk (talk) 14:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * LT, Newfane is just as connected to Buffalo as Tonawanda. No schools from either town should be included in an article about The City of Buffalo.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommycw1 (talk • contribs) 03:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please. Newfane is not physically connected at all to Buffalo; Tonawanda is at least adjacent.  Powers T 13:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

In any case, you all should (ideally) be using a source that listed the schools "in Buffalo" anyway, rather than resorting to personal ideas to decide whether school X was "in Buffalo" or not. If -- for some reason -- http://www.buffaloschools.org/ (first hit for "Buffalo schools") is considered inadequate, then -- given the financing and transportation and home-owner aspects -- you folks could surely get a list of Buffalo schools from somewhere else, e.g. from the city's planning and/or education commissions. -- Fullstop (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Suggestion: make a separate article on "List of schools in the Buffalo school district" (or whatever) and link to it from here. -- Fullstop (talk) 12:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on how that addresses the disagreement here. Powers T 13:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry about being unclear. What I meant was, you folks could sidestep the "how many miles from the city center" dispute altogether by putting your list at an article where the scope was clearly defined/definable (by the title itself).