Talk:Buffalo crime family/Archives/2018

Removed Content
This content was removed from the article has to be a reliable source not blogs

Current Leadership Boss: Frank BiFulco

Underboss: Joe Violi

Consigliere: Victor Sansanese

Before adding this information into the article please see Identifying reliable sources Citing sources. Thank you--Vic49 (talk)  16:06, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Yeah, thanks. I have reverted it further back again. really needs to get a grip of WP:RS and WP:OR. They've been doing this for ages now. - Sitush (talk) 16:19, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I think that some of the info that is reliably sourced can stay, but also not in the tone some of the info was previously in. Also I’m not sure if aboutthemafia and cosanostra news are reliable sources. I’ll work on this page a bit later, probably adding some relevant info from Paolo Violi. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 16:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The blogs are not reliable - no evidence of peer review/editorial oversight etc. Very few blogs are reliable. Much of what else was there relies on synthesis of sources and we're not permitted to do that either. - Sitush (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think the way forward with this article is probably regular newspaper/news website sources. Even a lot of books published about this type of subject tend to be self-published etc. Alas, I don't have much access to North American news sites. - Sitush (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

you've just reinstated but where, for example, does this source say that the guys concerned are members of the Buffalo crime family? Sure, it mentions someone allegedly connected to the Buffalo family allegedly meeting a couple of other guys, who are the main subject of the news story, but I'm not seeing the connection beyond that. This looks like synthesis on your part, not to mention a BLP issue (which is something you have already been warned about). - Sitush (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Adrian Rogers of the National Post in Canada says so look at the italicized quote. Its obvious.! — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuffCity (talk • contribs) 20:56, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * No. Read WP:SYNTHESIS. This issue with Todaro has also been discussed in a prior thread here. - Sitush (talk) 20:58, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * And writing such as or what they and the feds are now calling "The Todaro Crime Family") is appalling anyway. The feds? We're an encyclopaedia, not a trash novel. - Sitush (talk) 21:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Todaro
is this enough for it to be sometimes called the Todaro crime family? Also Joseph Todaro Sr.’s page is an absolute mess as well. One step at a time. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 23:35, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


 * As I have said somewhere above, I find a lot of the journalism on this subject to be somewhat sloppy in wording - sometimes outright breathless prose - and think it might be better to have a separate article. "Took over the Buffalo Mafia" was one example; "built on" in the report you link is another. - Sitush (talk) 23:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Question about the following:

These publications state members of the Buffalo crime family or what the Toronto Star, the US Justice Department, and FBI in Eastern New York have recently called "The Todaro Crime Family")[original research?]

Doesn’t Adrian Humphries equate the Todaro crime family to the Buffal Crime Family—See his quote in the article. Is this Original Research question that was raised implying Humphries information is original research? If not, how can what is witten in the article indicate this original...if Humphries wrote it first. Not trying to be rude, just trying to understand. BuffCity (talk) 02:58, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Source: DiCarlo: First Family of Crime
If I remember correctly I used this to verify the Buffalo Crime Family is referred to as “The Arm”. This fact is not an exceptional claim. From what I understand a self-published source can be used if...“The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim.”

Am I wrong? BuffCity (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're wrong. If it is so unexceptional, you should be able to find a reliable source for it. - Sitush (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2018 (UTC)


 * BuffCity, this is a link to a copyright violation. We can't do that, nor do we know that the site has transcribed it correctly (it's not a great site - SPS again). And, actually, I'm not sure whether it says what you claim anyway: it is another vague descriptor. - Sitush (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Im sorry what was the copyright violation? Really I don't understand. The link you listed was to a Buffalo News article on the Laborers International site (LIUNA) which they had posted. Here is the link you gave me:


 * All I did was put a reference to a link to a Buffalo News article on that Laborers International (LIUNA) site. How is that a copyright violation? ...I didn't type anything, except "The Arm".  If you read that article it explicitly uses the word "The Arm" to describe the crime family in the first sentence and I quote: La Cosa Nostra, The Arm, the Buffalo mob, organized crime, the hats.

'''
 * Additionally you say that is the definition of a self published source. Please tell me how that Buffalo News article is a self-published source? That artice calls the Buffalo Crime Family "The Arm." That is why I used it. You had already told me  the DiCarlo source out as self-published--so I changed it to try to meet Wiki Standard. (I hope you see I'm trying!)


 * And if I remember correctly you had already removed it before I got the second source in which was a better source... So would have removed it anyway. But I still need to understand...HOW IS THIS COPY RIGHT INFRINGEMENT?  HOW IS THIS A SELF PUBLISHED SOURCE.


 * Really I'm just asking. I don't want to copyright infringe....  Thanks for upcoming reply and you help.  I am really trying to understand.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuffCity (talk • contribs) 21:36, 16 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I think this ^^ may be symptomatic of the problems you are having. You are not reading things properly but rather jumping to a conclusion without critical thought. I never said The Arm was a copyright violation but rather that you had linked to a copyright violation. The website that you use in the citation appears to be violating copyright, albeit they acknowledge their source, because there is no evidence of permission. Equally, I said that the website is self-published, not the Buffalo News article.
 * I appreciate that you are trying but I do think it is an apparent inability fully to comprehend writings and their possible meanings that is landing you with repeated problems. I also don't think it helps that you keep editing the article with these various changes rather than waiting for consensus, and that is something which you have just done again in rephrasing something and removing the associated or tag. If you look in sections above, and read properly, you will understand why your change doesn't necessarily fix anything that matters. - Sitush (talk) 23:01, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

The Real Teflon Don
Here is the quote from the book:

Some believe the former Magaddino underlings “work” later expanded into the new millennium through telemarketing, pump and dump stock scams and internet pornography with the “family” expanding its operations nationwide.

This is not self published. This is a Buffalo News Journalist and the Contributor is a NYS Trooper who served on the Forest Avenue Boys (Organized Crime Task Force)set up by NYS, because the State didn't trust the FBI field office in Western NY. They thought there was a strong possibility they were in Bed with the Buffalo Mob... BuffCity (talk) 20:09, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Sitush--Please tell me how I screwed this up too!


 * You have cited a book published by a company whose primary business is as a bookstore and which seems to print the occasional local piece submitted by local people. That one of the contributors appears to be on one side of a conspiracy theory involving various law enforcement groups does not encourage confidence. - Sitush (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Now will you please discuss before making changes to the article because you are creating problems all over the place with this "jump in then ask" mentality. - Sitush (talk) 20:19, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Sitush-Do you understand the Bold Edit Policy? The BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (BRD) is an optional method of reaching consensus. This process is not mandated by Wikipedia policy, but it can be useful for identifying objections, keeping discussion moving forward and helping to break deadlocks. In other situations, you may have better success with alternatives to this approach. Care and diplomacy should be exercised. Some editors will see any reversion as a challenge, so be considerate and patient. Bold editing is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia. All editors are welcome to make positive contributions. When in doubt, edit!BuffCity (talk) 17:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Sitush—I suggest you put that section of the article back. You found the bookstore at Cazenovia College in Cazenovia, NY. That is not the publisher in Buffalo.


 * Aditionally the author spent 40 years as a journalists for the Buffalo News. He is legit!!!  BuffCity (talk) 21:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I did that with my phone so I hope it is signed correctly. BuffCity (talk) 21:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * It is not a conspiracy theory when other well established journalist has a different point of view. It is just a different point of view and should be reflected. BuffCity (talk) 21:43, 17 January 2018 (UTC)BuffCity (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Sitush-Why demean small publishing houses. Are you aware of the economics of publishing a book?


 * The mafia is a niche market, andBuffalo is a small market in that niche. It does not compare to NY city or Toronto or Chicago, Philadelphia,... etc. Large publishers will publish books on the mob in these cities because their is a market.


 * I don’t think economics should keep people from knowledge. Isn’t this the whole reason for  Wiki?  Are you comfortable with not making info available because money cannot be made from that info? BuffCity (talk) 21:55, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Matt Gryta is a Staff Reporter for the Buffalo News. He has been there 48 years and 9 months. He has journalistic integrity.  He is not going to risk that by printing garbage. If he did... he would no longer be with the Buffalo News. But you  think because The Buffalo News is a small paper compared to the New York Times—-we probably shouldn’t use it as a source or anyone that has been onvved with the Buffalo News.  Here is a link to a page at 1300 Elmwood Buffalo State describing his distinguished career. http://1300elmwood.buffalostate.edu/winter-2013/matt-gryta-ba-69 BuffCity (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2018 (UTC)BuffCity (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Sitush-Matt Gryta at the Buffalo News is the equivalent of Adrian Humphries Canada’s National Post in Toronto. The only difference... Humphries book on Papalia was published by a big publishing company Harper Collins because Toronto is a big market and so a big company can make money publishing it. Matt’s book was published by a small local publishing house in the actual market area, because that is the only way to break even or make a little money. It’s economics. Do you want to economics /money to determine what information is available? BuffCity (talk) 22:31, 17 January 2018 (UTC) BuffCity (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC

Sitush-I contacted the President of this small publishing company. He assured me this is not a self-published book. You may call him as well. His name is James Ostrowski. I will not put his number here... But if I found it... You can. BuffCity (talk) 02:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Sitush-Here is a link to an article from the Buffalo News written by Matt Gryta: http://buffalonews.com/2017/04/08/williamsville-man-ticketed-injury-accident-sheridan-drive/

There are many more if you care to check. BuffCity (talk) 02:39, 18 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I didn't say it was a self-published book. You are not reading, yet again. I am seriously beginning to query your competence now, even if you have enthusiasm in spades. I think you should try editing some others articles, well away from Buffalo and crime, for a while in order to get a better feel for how Wikipedia operates. - Sitush (talk) 05:35, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Sitush-Thing is I already told you the author was a legitimate journalist and you took that section out anyway! A couple of clicks and you could have verified. You just didn’t want to. Instead you find the Cazenovia College Bookstore in Cazenovia, NY. The citation clearly indicated Cazenovia, the Publusher, was located in Buffalo. You were looking for a reason not to keep my edit. That is uncool! Also, your bias against small publishers is absolutely wrong. You should understand the economics of publishing. Just because a publishe is small doesn’t mean they will publish anything. I’ve gotten a feel for how Wikipedia operates and I thank you for that. Does Wikipedia have a policy against small publishers? NO! BuffCity (talk) 12:48, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

@BuffCity - I understand your frustration in regard to sources, but no one will have quarrels with you if you can find reliable sources such as New York Daily News / ABC news etc, I know they aren't the best in reporting organized crime but these are the rules. If you are using sources such as Cosa Nostra blog by Ed Scarpo, they are completely not validated within Wikipedia, also people who follow up on organized crime find him not reliable either. Just a reminder that blogs will never be accepted. I agree that the Buffalo crime family page needs updated and also needs some information added (past and new) ThePlane11 (talk) 12:57, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

@ThePlan11 - Thank you for your comment. I am fairly new to editing and I, now, understand the blog sources will never be accepted. That being said, if a book is not self-published and the authors have significant insight into a subject, I think they should be included. The problem with only using books from large publishing houses is economics. In general, they only publish what will make money. Unfortunately the Mafia, as a subject is a niche market, and Buffalo is a small market city in that small niche. This is why non-self published sources from small publishers should be allowed. The flow of information shouldn't be limited to the economics of the publishing industry. I think Sitush has an issues with small publishers--read his comment on the history section about my edit about the buffalo family in the "new millennium" using the book The Real Teflon Don as a source. I indicated this was not self-published and that the author Matt Gryta was a respected journalist/crime reporter with the Buffalo News. Thanks again for your comment and I appreciate your tone. BuffCity (talk) 17:33, 18 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The problem with using books from intensely local publishers is that they are not "independent" in the truest sense of the word, and they are fairly obscure. I do realise all of this must be incredibly frustrating for you but I really do also have major concerns about your use of any source. You are misreading far too many of the comments on this talk page and that gives rise to a concern that you may also be unintentionally misrepresenting what the sources say, eg: by cherrypicking a couple of sentences. It is a common problem - my main interest on Wikipedia relates to India and in particular caste articles, where it is pretty much the norm - but it is a potential problem nonetheless. This is one of the reasons that I suggested you might benefit from contributing elsewhere on the project rather than becoming too obsessed with this single topic: by being exposed to a variety of situations and related comments from other contributors, you would probably gain a better understanding of the issues, both actual and imagined. I'm not trying to discourage you from editing here and, yes, we all make mistakes (or, at least, do things that fail to gain consensus - ha!) from time to time. The Plane11 is basically telling you what has already been said in previous comments, now entangled in the lengthy threads above. Please try to take this a constructive, even though I do realise it must appear otherwise. - Sitush (talk) 01:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

@ - Sitush thanks you for your response above. I understand your concern about cherry picking a sentence or two. Please understand I have each of those books and have read each two to theee times. (Except then DiCarlo First Family of Crime Volume 2—still working my way through it.) You are right each author is not completely “independent” (I know you were speaking of publishers-but no publisher can ensure total independence. Indeed if they did, their would be little interest in the books published.)

What I am trying tobsayvis each author has their own point of view. But each brings sunstantial understanding to the whole. This is why an article needs to reflect the diversity that is in print. That diversity adds to the understanding of the topic as a whole.

I hope you understand my concern with what you said about small publishers. Your comment seemed to indicate they all will print anything - as long as it not illegal for them to do so. That may be true of a few, but not the majority. A book should not be dismissed, because it comes from a small or local publisher. It should be accepted or dismissed on its own merit or lack there of.

Anyway, I believe bringing information from many sources will give a better and more well rounded understanding of the whole. That is what I am trying to stick up for. I hope you understand. BuffCity (talk) 02:15, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

No problem. Help me on the Five Families if you like as I'm trying to update it. Try here for the most recent Mob information - http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=8&page=1 - and the US department of justice website is also very fresh. ThePlane11 (talk) 10:42, 22 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Do what? Web discussion forums etc are not reliable sources, and US government sources are primary and so need to be treated with care. Does anyone involved in this subject area actually understand our policies? It seems to be chock-full of speculative and unreliable sourcing. - Sitush (talk) 11:10, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't speaking to you so mind your business. I don't have to explain myself but I will in this case, I never said use it as a source, I said use it to find information. Again mind your own business. Also I've used the US justice department as a source to cover recent American Mafia arrests. I'm trying to solve this issue and help you Sitush but you'd rather bicker and act in a pathetic manner. No wonder there is no progress here. ThePlane11 (talk) 12:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I understand the policies, if you actually cared to look at what I typed to BuffCity previously. I wasn't acting like an arrogant child such as yourself. Is it only Conservatives who care about mannerism? I admire BuffCity because he is trying to improve the article whereas you've offered little to none assistance. As I said I understand the policies but as I ALSO said they aren't the best such as calling Michael Franzese "a boss" whereas he was a Capo, by your standards calling him a boss would be fine because ABC reported it, even though it wouldn't be logical. That's the point I'm making. BuffCity & others who will click onto the website, I meant find the RELIABLE information and then try to find a matching and "wikipedia standard source", thanks. ThePlane11 (talk) 12:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Encouraging the use of blogs and primary sources is not a step forward. - Sitush (talk) 18:28, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for reporting me Sitush, I enjoyed that 48 hour ban. Once again I'll repeat myself, I'm not encouraging the use of blogs. I will say again, I am not / did not encourage the use of blogs. A third time, I did not encourage the use of blogs. If you're having a hard time understanding then you just need to tell me. I won't be assisting you in the future, that's a promise :) ThePlane11 (talk) 20:12, 25 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Help me on the Five Families if you like as I'm trying to update it. Try here for the most recent Mob information ... There is no suggestion there that the discussion forum is not reliable or that you didn't intend it to be used as a source. Perhaps the problem lies in an inability to express what you intended but, whatever, no amount of subsequent ranting will change what it said and you were not doing BuffCity any favours with that invitation. I may take a look at the Five Families stuff some time because the statement was worrying: no amount of anger from you would put me off doing so because I'm used to it in the topic area that I most commonly frequent. Glad you enjoyed the break but let's hope it is the last one, eh? - Sitush (talk) 21:17, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm getting the impression that you're a SJW because you are jumping to conclusions. I wrote that so I should know what I meant, you did not. I meant use that information to find the most reliable information, there are people on that forum who are strong mob experts and rely on people such as Jerry Capeci. I never said use it as a source. Once again, you should read what I typed because I said specifically in another comment "BuffCity & others who will click onto the website, I meant find the RELIABLE information and then try to find a matching and 'wikipedia standard source'" and once again, you should concern yourself with your own affairs because you are meddling in other people's business whilst being wrong. If you are going to involve yourself in my business then atleast be correct in what you say. I would never suggest using a website like that as a source (I don't use them either) - let's leave it at that because I want nothing to do with you. People such as myself and BuffCity, try to help you while trying to contribute to Wikipedia and make it more knowledgeable for the readers but you are trying to bring us down. I'll tell you what is "worrying" - the Five Families pages which are undated. It had Frank Cali as a Capo when we he was promoted to boss 3 years ago, I changed the information in late 2017. The whole page is full of nonsense and completely mixed up. I use reliable sources when editing those pages, ABC news, CNN etc. You really need to have words with yourself matey. ThePlane11 (talk) 12:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
 * We cannot read your mind. We can only read what you said. And what you said is not what you now claim you meant. Fine, you wrote it poorly and potentially misguided BuffCity, who is already struggling to recognise reliable sources, but going around being angry and tossing things like "SJW" about is just going to get you another block. You're on thin ice so, yes, perhaps it would be better if you walk away from this because each block you get for attacking people with provocative labels etc is going to be longer than the last one. It soon spirals into an indefinite block. - Sitush (talk) 20:37, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

THEN DO NOT ASSUME BECAUSE YOU ASSUMED WRONG. I should be sorry because YOU involved yourself and made the wrong judgement on me? I am simply making my point that you should take what I said to heart for next time. I came here to help you and I specifically told BuffCity to use reliable sources but instead I received a block because I'm getting frustrated telling you over and over. I will leave it at this because I want to edit Wikipedia and help and not argue with anyone - arguing is not my intention here. Let's leave it at that. ThePlane11 (talk) 02:49, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

WP:Drop the stick. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:57, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Point noted. Please do not ask me to help when Sitush is involved in a Wiki project, ever, thank you Vaseline. ThePlane11 (talk) 03:49, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

INFO ON BUFFALO CRIME FAMILY from Peter Edwards Book Business or Blood: Mafia Boss Vito Rizzuto's Last War
In a book by mob expert and Toronto area crime reporter for The Star called Business or Blood: Mafia Boss Vito Rizuuto's Last War, Peter Edwards states: The old Magaddino family of Buffalo was attempting a revival through loansharking at Casino Niagara on the American border. This is in a chapter 40 titled "Nonstop Hits" that relates to the Calabrians, Rizutto, and a party in the Vaughn area that was held for those involved with the Platinum Sports Book in January of 2013 (See Kindle Location 3453). The following is the last paragraph of this chapter and summarizes that chapter thusly:

"At the time of the Platinum SB party, the Bonanno family’s credibility hung at a historic low, never having recovered from the defection of its former boss Joe Massino. The family’s failure to avenge the murder of Salvatore Montagna had called particular attention to their weakness. In Ontario, the New York City crime families with the most influence now were the Luccheses and Gambinos, and to a lesser extent the Genoveses. The old Magaddino family of Buffalo was attempting a revival through loansharking at Casino Niagara on the American border. This revived La Cosa Nostra was more loosely structured now, and more of a network than a tight organization. Contacts, expertise and experience were shared across organizational lines, for mutual benefit. These weren’t particularly friendly waters for Vito, but he had navigated far worse."

Source: Edwards, Peter. Business or Blood: Mafia Boss Vito Rizzuto's Last War (Kindle Locations 3480-3486). Random House of Canada. Kindle Edition.

I would like to put the following in the article on the Buffalo Crime Family after the paragraph by Buffalo crime writer Matt Gryta:

"Moreover, Canadian mob expert and crime reporter for the Toronto Star, Peter Edwards, indicates the Buffalo Crime Family was organized and actively in the process of reviving its interests in Canada as late as 2013. He writes: "The old Magaddino family of Buffalo was attempting a revival through loansharking at Casino Niagara on the American border." This statement is related to the attempt by Vito Rizzuto to reassert control over the Toronto area rackets especially the Platinum Sports book after his release from prison in October of 2012 while seeking revenge for the then recent murders of members of his crime family.[7]"

Number 1: Peter Edwards is a respected Canadian journalist and crime writer for the Toronto Star. Here is a link to his bio on the Toronto Star Webpage: Peter Edwards Bio Number 2: Edwards' book was published by a well Random House... Not self-published at all. Number 3: Peter Edwards, like Adrian Humphries, is an export on organized crime and the mafia in Canada. Number 4: His book although dealing with the Rizutto Crime family and its battle with the Controni Crime family of Montreal delves deeply in the family and clans in the greater Toronto area (GTA), especially the Luppino/Violi's. Rizutto had Dominic and Joe Violi's dad Paolo killed. They went to GTA under care of the relative Giacomo Luppino after their Dad was killed. So these GTA clans have a definite connection to Rizutto. Number 5: These GTA clans/families include the Luppino, Violi, Papalia families of Hamilton/Toronto that are known to have been crews of the Buffalo Family under Magaddino and work for/with/as a part of the Buffalo Crime family. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police indicate Frank BiFulco and Sonney Nicoletti (who are both alleged to be/have been Buffalo Crime family bosses according to unsubstantiated reports) worked closely with the Violi/Luppinos, and Papalia clan/families of the GTA will into the new millennium. The report covers '98-2002. Here is a link to this leaked RCMP document:

LEAKED RCMP DOCUMENT

Number 6: Here you can read about the Violi, Luppino connections to Buffalo and the intricate relationships with the Controni, Rizutto, Bonanno, and Buffalo. From the portion of Edwards book below you can see that Magaddino believed Montreal was his territory.

Thanks for your prompt attention I will add this section in 3 days if no response.--BuffCity (talk) 12:03, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I think somewhere in the past it was pointed out that this article had far too many quotes. Anything added needs to be paraphrased. I'm actually slightly worried that huge chunks of the above message may be copyright violations and I have removed them. - Sitush (talk) 12:23, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * We cannot use the leaked document - see WP:PRIMARY. - Sitush (talk) 12:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Who says he is a mob expert? Can one get an academic qualification in that? Why is it "Moreover"? Why is it "actively in the process" rather than just "in the process"? And what does it all mean? I really am very confused with this proposal. We seem to have a Magaddino family, a Todaro family and a Buffalo crime family, of which the latter is supposed to be the subject of this article. - Sitush (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, I have cleaned it up a bit and things are slightly clearer. - Sitush (talk) 14:35, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Our article currently cites The Star for the statement that the Violis have "longstanding ties to the Buffalo Mob". But the source does not say that, merely noting that "In one of the recorded talks, Luppino told his wife that he and their son Jimmy had recently met with Stefano Magaddino, an undertaker who was then head of the Buffalo mob family, about Toronto mobster Paul Volpe." That's the Luppinos, and Magaddino had died in 1974, which isn't "recent". What am I missing? - Sitush (talk) 14:55, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Sitush I have responded to you 3 times, spent hours. And each time you made a slight change so didn't get my responses. I am so frustrated.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuffCity (talk • contribs) 15:01, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You mean edit conflicts? There were huge gaps in my messages but in any event, if that happens then hit the Back button on your browser, copy what you had written, reload the talk page and paste. Takes 5 seconds, tops. - Sitush (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes... I will try BuffCity (talk) 15:17, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Sitush... Here is my latest, but smallest response that had a conflict: Sitush... The long quote that was a copyright violation indicates the complex relationships between Violis, Luppinos, Maggadino, Rizzuto, and their long history of working together. Please read chapter 4 of the book I referenced.  I spent hours summarizing it ...but your edits kept mine form being accepted.  I can't take that much time to explain things to you again. The jist is this: Contronis, Luppinos, Rizuttos, Papalias, Violis, Magaddino, and his cousin Bonanno all worked to together. Maggaidno and Bonanno were vying for control of Montreal.  Therefor these guys worked for Magaiddino and Bonanno. Even though they were the separate crime Canadian families, they were crews for these American families as well.  Violi was put in place along with Controni by Magaddino to help wrest control of Montreal, from Bonnano.  Rizuto didn't like being under Calibrians as he was a Sicilian.  Magaddino had no problem working with Calibrians.  When Rizuto killed Violi to take Montreal his boys moved to GTA and stayed with their relative Giacomo Luppino who had strong connection with the Controni family and Magaddino. Luppino was a captain for Magaddino even thou he headed his own family and put together the governing board for the nDrangheta (Calibrian Mob). So he was part of a rlling panel in Canada but still answered to Magaddino.  The long quote that was removed because it was a copyright violation had a paragraph where Luppino stated that Magaddino was not happy that some folks in Montreal were not answering to him but to his cousin Bonanno.  He said he had the right to know what was happening in his house (Montreal).  The implication is he believed all the crime families in Montreal and Toronto should answer to him.  It is this long history of Luppinos, Papilias, Violi's working together and for Buffalo that lends credence to Edwards quote.  Additionally, the leaked document which I know can't be used in the article shows these families were continuing to work together till 2002 the date on the document.  All of this makes Edwards statement that Buffalo and its Canadian factions were alive and active in 2013... not dead as the Buffalo News reported.  He need to present both sides.BuffCity (talk) 15:23, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@Sitush: About Edwards being a mob expert... He is been consulted many times for his knowledge of Mob activity in Canada and os sought out to lecture so the topic. No he does not have academic credentials in this area, just working knowledge based on his hears covering crime in GTA. I would call him a mob expert. I think other would too!BuffCity (talk) 15:25, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Here is a quote from his author page: "Edwards has been interviewed about organized crime for the BBC, CBC, CTV, CBS.com and the Mob Stories series for History Television and frequently lectures on organized crime and journalism at several universities and colleges." — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuffCity (talk • contribs) 15:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Sitush how about this:


 * The Buffalo crime family's main front operation was Laborers' International Union of North America Local 210. Over the course of the later part of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st, the Buffalo crime family declined in influence. Factors included older members slowly turning away from the organization, younger Italian-Americans showing no interest in its operations, an 11-year federal operation that forced the family out of Local 210 between 1995 and 2006, introduction of the New York Lottery depriving the family of a major revenue source (illegal gambling revenue), and the rise of Joe Todaro Jr.'s legitimate pizzeria business. These events have caused Dan Herbeck a crime reporter for the The Buffalo News to write the headline “The mafia us all but dead in western New York” in March of 2017[5]


 * It should be recognize, however, that in 2012 Matt Gryta, another crime reporter for The Buffalo News, wrote that many believe the family had "expanded into the new millennium through telemarketing, pump and dump stock scams and internet pornography with the 'family' expanding its operations nationwide",[6][dubious – discuss]


 * Recently, Peter Edwards a crime reporter who lectures on the mob in Canadian universities, also, revealed that the Buffalo Crime has been active into the year 2013 as it was working to revive its loan sharking operations through the Casino Niagara in Canada on the American border.


 * In November 2017 the US Department of Justice and Canadian newspapers indicate the family is still alive. The Toronto Star said that Giuseppe (Joe) and Domenico Violi, whose father Paolo and maternal Grandfather Giacomo Luppino had longstanding ties to the Buffalo Mob, were arrested on narcotics trafficking charges. During this period, Magaddino had asked Giacomo Luppino to move to Montreal to take care of his interests in that city he considered "his house" or territory. After the murder of their father and uncles at the hands of Vito Rizuto the Violi boys were moved to Hamilton to come under the protection of their Grandfather's crime family that answered to Buffalo.[7] [This is summary of related portions of chapter 4 of Edwards book called "Going to War" if we add it.]


 * The recent charges related to the Otremens operation indicate a continuation of the long established mafia drug trafficking rectangle from Toronto/Hamilton to Buffalo and Montreal to New York Cirt established by Stefano Magaddino and his cousin, Joseph Bonanno.[8][9] Additionally, Metro News said that "The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro."[10] The Department of Justice said that Canadian law enforcement authorities had arrested various members and associates of the Bonanno, Gambino, and Todaro crime families on charges that include narcotics trafficking.[11] In response to these arrests, Canadian journalist Adrian Humphries wrote:


 * Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph Todaro Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.[12] BuffCity (talk) 16:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@Sitush... I am comfortable keeping in the longstanding ties to the Buffalo Crime family for several reasons: 1. Edwards highlights the Violi families longstanding connection to the Luppinos in the chapter that was too long for copyright reasons. 2. The Giacomo Luppino was a captain for the Buffalo crime family. Edwards definitely connects Giacomo to Magaddino in that chapter. 3. The Luppinos have long been identified by the FBI as crew of the Buffalo Crime Family. Edwards verifies they did the bidding of Magaddino. I have a freedom of information act (FOIA)request for the most recent (2006) crime family chart document from the FBI. They are backlogged 2 years. 4. The Luppiono crime family provided protection for the Violi boys after their father's death at the hands of the Rizutto clan in Montreal. 5. The leaked RCMP document verifies the connection continues through his sons Giocomo's sons Dominic and Giuseppe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuffCity (talk • contribs) 16:59, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Ok. Can you ping me late Sunday or on Monday? I am likely to be away until then. I understand what you are trying to do but remain a bit concerned that we are building a house of cards here. It's a complex subject and I know you know more about it than me. Treat me as someone new to the topic - as the average reader would be - and thus needing clarity. I tried to straighten out some of the article a few hours ago precisely for that reason: it was more confusing than perhaps you realise, arguably because you are so familiar with the topic that you see the trees rather than the wood than a newcomer would see. We need to ensure that the newcomer can navigate the wood. - Sitush (talk) 01:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC)


 * To clarify something I said recently, I am not disputing the use of Edwards but rather the use of the term "mob expert" to describe him. As for the rest, I'm afraid it is as clear as mud to me. I genuinely cannot work out what is in the sources and what is synthesis. It isn't helped when you throw in comments about primary sources (including the Freedom on Information thing) that we simply cannot use. No offence intended but the fact that you are pretty much a single-purpose account does cause me to query things more than I might usually do because I don't think you really understand some of our policies etc but without access to the sources I cannot be sure. If you had edited more widely, I would be more inclined to think that you understood the need to avoid WP:SYNTHESIS and the like.
 * Perhaps other people can offer some insight here? - Sitush (talk) 04:14, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@sitush sorry I haven't gotten back to you...BuffCity (talk) 16:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Proposed Edit
The Buffalo crime family gained power during the Prohibition era through bootlegging. In 1931, the family boss, Stefano Magaddino, became an original member of The Commission, the governing body of the American Mafia. The family remained strong and relatively united until his leadership was challenged in the 1960s. It then split into factions as they tried to assassinate him.[why?] The internal war continued after his death from natural causes on July 19, 1974[2] but ended in the early 1980s when Joseph Todaro Sr. became the boss.[3] Todaro united the family and retired in 2006, leaving many in law enforcement to believe Leonard Falzone had taken his place.[4] However, others thought he was only acting as the "front boss" for the Todaros and that Joseph Todaro Jr. was the acting boss while his father became the senior statesman for the family.[citation needed]

The Buffalo crime family's main front operation was Laborers' International Union of North America Local 210. Over the course of the later part of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st, the Buffalo crime family declined in influence. Factors contributing to this decline included: older members slowly turning away from the organization, younger Italian-Americans showing no interest in its operations, the decline of the Buffalo economy, the development of new laws and new crimes, an 11-year federal operation that forced the family out of Local 210 between 1995 and 2006, introduction of the New York Lottery depriving the family of a major revenue source (illegal gambling revenue), and the rise of Joe Todaro Jr.'s legitimate pizzeria business. In 1998 these factors lead Lee Coppola, veteran organized crime reporter for The Buffalo News article to write "Today's Buffalo mob -- disorganized and all but penniless -- is a far cry from its heyday,”  and that the “last visible remnants of mob power in Buffalo disappeared."

However, Coppola’s pronouncement was premature. The mob in Buffalo, although diminished, was not completely disorganized and penniless. The FBI continued to release the crime family’s organizational charts until at least 2006. The Niagara Falls Reporter indicated Leonard Falzone was promoted to the top spot after Joe Todaro Sr. reportedly stepped down in 2006. (who will lead) After the deaths of Todaro Sr. in 2012 and Benjamin “Sonny” Nicoletti in 2013  rumors swirled about who would lead the family.

In 2012, Matt Gryta, crime reporter for The Buffalo News, said that many believe the family had "expanded into the new millennium through telemarketing, pump and dump stock scams and internet pornography with the 'family' expanding its operations nationwide."[6][dubious – discuss] That same year, Dan Herbeck wrote an article on Ron Fino, where he suggested “the FBI’s inside guy” at Laborers Local 210 was “skeptical of the Justice Department’s claims that mob influences were totally removed from Local 210 and the Laborers international,” and went on to say that Ron believed the federal trusteeship the government established to clean the union "didn’t go far enough."

Nearly 20 after Coppola’s article on “The Withered Arm” Dan Herbeck wrote an article titled "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York,” and states that only “scattered remnants that are no longer believed to be active or organized remain.” The article highlights many of the same factors that the ’98 article cited for the decline of the Buffalo crime family [5]

Recent arrests in Canada raise and current articles raise questions the possibility over overstating the Buffalo Crime Family’s demise.

In November 2017 the US Department of Justice and Canadian newspapers indicate the family is still active. The Toronto Star said that Giuseppe (Joe) and Domenico Violi, who have longstanding ties to the Buffalo Mob, were arrested on narcotics trafficking charges.[7] These charges indicate a continuation of the long established mafia drug trafficking triangle from Toronto/Hamilton to Buffalo and Montreal to New York City established by Stefano Magaddino and his cousin, Joseph Bonanno.[8][9] Additionally, Metro News said that "The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro."[10] The Department of Justice said that Canadian law enforcement authorities had arrested various members and associates of the Bonanno, Gambino, and Todaro crime families on charges that include narcotics trafficking.[11] In response to these arrests, Canadian journalist Adrian Humphries wrote:

Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph Todaro Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.[12]

Dr. Anna Sergi (lecturer in criminology at the Department of Sociology, University of Essex, United Kingdom, and Deputy Director of the Centre for Criminology) confirms the Otremens operation, that resulted in the Violi brothers' arrests, indicates New York crime families are using drug trafficking routes they established long ago and are being "reinvigorated" by their long established working relationships with the Calabrian mafia in Canada. However, her article calls into question the current affiliation of the Todaro Crime Family in Buffalo indicating it is a "Crime Syndicate" formerly aligned with the LCN families of New York. See her chart in the linked article: Anna Sergi on Todaro Crime Family, LCN & Calabrian Colaboration

Given the divergence of professional opinion, more information is needed to determine if the Todaro Crime Family/Syndicate is indeed still its own LCN family, has become a separate crime entity, or has been absorbed by another New York LCN family like the Bonanno family or a Canadian Calabrian Family like the Violi Clan.[13]BuffCity (talk) 18:54, 12 September 2018 (UTC)


 * This just confuses me even more. There is no consistency in naming etc and so working out what is being said is beyond me. I really do think that you would benefit from contributing to other articles rather than being obsessed by this one - do that for a while and you might pick up ideas on how best to phrase the information that you have. We certainly do not say things like "See her chart in the linked article". - Sitush (talk) 08:59, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean by there is no consistency in the naming? I don’t understand what you mean? Give me an axample and I would be glad to fix it. If itbis relates to the Buffalo Crime Family also being called “The Arm,” the Magaddino Family, the Todaro Family and/or using terms mob, mafia, Cosa Nostra, La Casa Nostra, LCN, that is just typical of the subject matter. Reporters, Law Enforcement, The Goverment, Orgalozed Crime experts ...etc use various names to refer to the same thing. I remember you were so confused and could not figure out why we were talking g about the Todaro Crime Family when the article was about the Buffalo Family. The reason is they are the same thing. We have to use the terms that are being used at the time. If the Justice Department and organized crime reporter Peter Edwards  and law enforcement use new terms for old organizations, we have to too. Also, I remember you had a problem when I suggested “The Arm” be included as a term forbthisbcrkme family, because it is. I even documented it and you took it out. If people know the family is called “The Arm” then they will understand Lew Coppola’s play on words in the title of his article “The Withered Arm.” Do you see how your removal, based on your lack of knowledge kept people from learning, and then keeps them from picking up on what reporters are working? Next question, what confuses you in this edit? Give me an example. And I will do my best to make it more clear. Next, you mention not to say “see the linked article.” I’ll take that out. I pointed people to the linked article because I couldn’t use the diagram in it for copyright reasons. Did you look at the picture in the article? Admittedly the written description makes more sense when one has seen he diagram. Pictures are often better than words. About being more confused... I have to admit I didn’t like several revisions you made. I thought they made the article less clear. I gave you an example “The Arm”, but there are others. That being said, I appreciate your input. I’d like helpful criticism and feedback. BuffCity (talk) 01:09, 14 September 2018 (UTC)