Talk:Bullfighter

Title
Shouldn't it be titled "Bullfighter" you hardly use the word "torero" in the english language since "torero" is the spanish language term. Infact i had a hard time looking for this page and was confused & doubted if it was the same thing as a bullfighter?--Anen87 (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

from VfD
(article was kept)


 * Keep. It's an interesting short article worthy of expansion. - Lucky 6.9 18:57, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep -- Cyrius|&#9998 19:44, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. More information out there. DJ Clayworth 21:29, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sure to grow, even independently of a bullfighting article. Postdlf  23:13 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, I agree with the above. Jeeves 00:26, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Why was this nominated? Smerdis of Tlön 01:24, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Listed without comment by Dante Alighieri -- Cyrius|&#9998 01:43, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Listed by me because I couldn't see it turning into an actual article. It went without comment because I couldn't figure out this stupid format. ;) --Dante Alighieri | Talk 06:31, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * That's why I ignore trying to create this stupid format and let others do it. RickK 21:07, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Brooklyn Nellie (Nricardo) 04:14, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, please contribute. (BTW, would someone delete Toreador (Camarilla)? I created it by mistake, it is now an orphan redirect. Thanks...)Jorge Stolfi 05:48, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Cribcage 06:41, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Looks perfectly reasonable, even though the "matador" material is just a stub. The balance of material between this article and Bullfighting article might take some thought. But a page that combines disambiguation redirects, a short explanation of the commonest term, and the link to a longer article seems quite functional to me. Dpbsmith 13:21, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm spanish, and here in Spain the word is 'torero' is much more used than 'matador'. And you never say 'toreador', I think this word first appears in the opera Carmen for matters of rhyme. --80.58.11.44 21:54, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Patched accordingly. Could someone from Spanish Latin America confirm the status of "toreador"? Thanks... Jorge Stolfi 02:55, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Never heard of "toreador". Ok, I'm from Argentina, no toreo there so it doesn't count. But search in Google for "toreador site:.mx" vs "torero site:.mx" (same with .ve, .pe, .ec) and you'll see nobody uses it. But it accepted by the Real Academia del idioma, though

The term "toreador" is archaic and it refers to rejoneadores who fought bulls on horseback. It hasn't been in common use since the early 19th century

--In Puerto Rico, we use Torero. Heck, Chayanne even released a song called Torero CaravaggioFan 03:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

This should probably be moved to Torero. 'Matador' is a common term in America amongst people who have never seen, and no very little about bullfights, but that should hardly be the standard.

- Ncsaint 17:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Exactly: "matador" is the common term. English is what it is, not what it "should be". Therefore, while on Spanish Wikipedia this article's counterpart would appear under "Torero", on English Wikipedia it ought to be where English-speaking people would expect to find it: under the word they use for the concept.

Matador (From Bullfighting discussion)
There seems to be a lot of confusion on terminology, even (surprisingly) among people who say they live in Spain. A torero is anybody involved in the lidia of the bull: that includes the matador, banderilleros, the picadores, and in some places, even the puntillero (if he is not one of the banderilleros). A matador (fully known as a matador de toros) is the lead bullfighter, who has taken his "doctorate" which is his rite of passage from the minor-league ranks, where he was a "novillero". Once he has taken that "alternativa" he is a matador de toros forever. He can then "confirm" his graduation by fighting in Madrid, Mexico, or Bogota, though the majority do so in Madrid. I am unsure why people who say they are either Spanish or live in Spain would be confused by the term "matador" which is the only possible word to describe a lead bullfighter who has taken the alternativa.
 * maybe cause not all of Spain practice bullfights and they are not bull rings on every corner of every city you know (it is only seen in the capital and southern parts of spain). just like I'm american but don't know anything about rodeo/cowboys I may think I do but would be wrong as I am a city girl. Also english is not their native language so they wouldn't know how to say it or translate it into english.--Anen87 (talk) 18:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

'Matador'
where in the bullfighting world is 'matador' a common term for the torero? In the United States, amongst people who know absolutely nothing about bullfights, the word 'matador' is standard. But I have never encountered it in places where bullfighting actually occurs, and there are some comments to the same effect on the matador page. It seems clear to me that that page should be moved to torero, and that there should be some clarification on this page. But I don't feel qualified to make that clarification... Is 'matador' simply wrong? Is there somewhere where bullfights actually occur, and this word is used in favor of 'torero'?

- Ncsaint 17:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Matador is word used in the Spanish speaking world. The word in Spanish for bullfighter is torero.  Not all Toreros are bullfighters.  Matador is the highest level of torero.  It is sort of like being in the major leagues.  A particularly promising torero is presented at a major bull by a current matador (his sponsor, so to speak) and the older matador formally asks the novillero to kill one of his bulls for him at which point the torero is promoted to full matador.--Counsel 18:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * but where? it's simply not true that 'matador' is used in 'the Spanish speaking world' in that way. People in Andalucia, for instance, are aware of the word, but have no use for it, in my experience. So where is this word being used? - Ncsaint 22:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure it is see here  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.239.253.2 (talk) 18:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This is English Wikipedia. "Matador" is the ordinary term in English, at least in the US, and the main entry ought to be there, just as the entry for a tuxedo (smoking jacket) in French Wikipedia ought to be under "Smoking" because they use the English word "smoking" alone to refer to a tuxedo regardless of the fact that we don't.


 * DRAE defines matador as "torero who kills by the sword". Banderilleros, picadores and rejoneadores are not matadores, but I think at least some of them are toreros. --Error 00:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Matador is a Spanish word and is used in spanish. The Spanish version of Wiki has this to say about the varios levels of promotion among Toreros: "El torero tiene varias etapas de formación, obtenida por la práctica. La primera etapa es la de novillero, en la que se lidia novillos debido a su menor tamaño y fuerza, comenzando generalmente en festivales sin caballos, para luego pasar a novilladas con picadores de acuerdo a sus resultados. La segunda etapa es la de matador, donde el torero ha conseguido destreza suficiente para desarrollar con estilo y técnica todos los tercios de la lidia. Cuando un novillero logra, en teoría, los méritos necesarios alcanzar el grado de matador, realiza una corrida especial denominada alternativa. La alternativa se puede conseguir en cualquier plaza de toros de primera categoría; sin embargo generalmente los matadores realizan una confirmación de su alternativa en plazas de particular tradición como Las Ventas en Madrid o la Monumental de Ciudad de México." If you are not a spanish speaker, this says largely the same thing that I wrote in English above.

The assertion that the article as written should be moved to "Torero" is largely valid, however. The article is not particularly accurate right now. It confuses Matador with Toreros in general. The article under Toreador is flat wrong. Matador is used in Spanish. It is roughly (very roughly) analogous to saying "major leaguer" rather than "ball player". Torero is the more common word, however picadors, peones, novilleros, and rejoneadores are all toreros. Only a Torero who is skilled in the third tercio of the corrida  and  has been presented at Las Ventas or Monumental is a Matador. This is the person who works the bull with the muleta and kills him with the sword in a major bullfight. I think that this article should be corrected and clarified to explain the role of a Matador vis a vie the rest of the players in a corrida, or it should be expanded to include all of the Toreros in a corrida and moved to that title. I believe the latter is the better option.--Counsel 17:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Native Spaniard checking in. First let me say that this is the English Wikipedia and the word "matador" is the word used in English so it is a perfectly good word in English just like Spain is a perfectly good English word. Having said that, the word matador is hardly ever used in Spanish where torero is the more common word. Torero covers the main bullfighter as well as his helpers. Only when there is a need to distinguish the major figures, those who have taken the "alternativa", from the rest, then the expression "matador de toros" may be used, never "matador" on its own. Also the word "maestro" is used, I suppose in parallel with the trades where you had the "master" and the "apprentices". A matador will be adressed as "maestro" and often referred to with that title also. There is a lot of nuance and usage and it would be difficult to make rules but any Spaniard can tell you what sounds right and what sounds strange or even wrong. Again, while this may be of interest for the knowledge of the fiesta (not sport! please!) I do not believe it should affect English usage in the slightest. English is its own language. GS3 12:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * American bilingual checking in. I just came here to say that Spain is a perfectly good English word because it IS an english word xD it is suppose to be the equivalent to Espana (it's spanish form/word). "Matador" is not an english word but a spanish word to refers to "the Killer" in Spanish. If the word is used in English this is just english-speakers/Americans trying to speak or say things in their Spanish form also they use this word in its spanish form to be more dramatic. The most common use in english (if you read english language articles) is actually "Bullfighter".--Anen87 (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Controversy
I'm surprised that in this article there is no mention of the controversy that, I presume, must surround the proponents of such a controversial sport. For example, do they personally face criticism? Are they ever threatened by animal rights activists? There is a section on the controversy in the bullfighting section, of course, but I think it would be worthwhile to have something, even just a paragraph, in this article to make it balanced. This is just an observation - I know virtually nothing about bullfighting and was reading this just through interest.

Sorry - forgot to sign above comment Blaise Joshua 12:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I added a See Also section with a link to the main article where the controversy coverage is found.--Counsel 15:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed! Seriously, why is there no mention of the long-standing objections to this cruel and barbarous spectacle? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.51.70 (talk • contribs)

Move
I have tried to move the article to Torero without success. As that page already exists the move is not permitted. Right now Torero is just a redirect.--Counsel 15:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Torero (bullfighter) → Bullfighter — This would be more inclusive and allow discussion of bullfighters that aren't toreros because they don't come from Spanish speaking countries (e.g. Forcado, Cavaleiro (discussed in Rejoneador)). Also, the word torero is not commonly used in English--as was discussed before. While the proposal to move the page to "matador" was rightly rejected, it doesn't seem that anyone thought to move the page to the English name and avoid the whole issue! Calliopejen1 17:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Doesn't this translate as Toreador? That's a term in use in the English language, and as per WP:ENGLISH, if such a term exists we should be using it ahead of foreign language terms. I'd recommend moving the dab page to Toreador (disambiguation), and then moving this page to Toreador. --DeLarge 16:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 09:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, the name of the article should be moved to bullfighter.--SidP 16:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

What is the song they play in the ring
71.114.183.105 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Matador description
Explains what Picadors and Banderilleros do, but lacks anything of substance except popularity info on the Matador. What weapon or gear does he use? Well, maybe I am missing something here... in which case, that just goes to prove that it's confusing, considering the fact that I've carefully re-read the article several times to try to figure the roles out! 128.195.186.44 (talk) 22:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)Adieu

Don't know exactly where to ask this question, so I'll ask it here: Does anyone know why bricklaying is considered the traditional starting profession for a bullfighter? From what I've read, it was long a tradition that anyone who aspired to learn bullfighting would first start out learning how to be a mason...and I just wondered what the connection was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.147.118.31 (talk) 17:24, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Etymology
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was surprised to read that "toreador" is not, in fact, a Spanish word, whether or not Georges Bizet used it in Carmen. I think we ought to get some facts straight:
 * Toreador is an English word, a loanword.
 * Wiktionary says toréador is a French word.
 * Wiktionary also says toreador is a Spanish word and even mention a pl. toreadores.
 * Torero is the commonly accepted modern Spanish term.

Hopefully we can reach some conclusion to this end, as it would not do to mis-lead our readers. Hwfr (talk) 00:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, it is. But not widely used. User:Darroa (talk) 19:57, July 21, 2016 (UTC)
 * We are not allowed to "reach conclusions" because that would be WP:Original research, and is not allowed. What exactly is your proposal?  Vanjagenije  (talk)  20:47, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I propose we move this page to "Bullfighter" which is the most common English word in use (Most common name). Before I was redirected to this page I had never seen Torero used in English. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but if that doesn't happen, I'll move this page in the next month or so... &#x2611; Sam uelWantman 01:04, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

definition of punctuation
"There is no contest, simple punctuation, nor any formal classification."

The intent and meaning of this is lost on me. DAVilla (talk) 22:05, 15 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I got curious and went looking... it was added in this edit, but that doesn't clarify anything. Jessicapierce (talk) 01:19, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That referred obviously to the ears and tail awarded for each performance. I have edited it. --Jotamar (talk) 16:35, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Bravery? Or cowardice?
The article is biased in using the word bravery to describe characteristics of multiple people engaged in injuring the animal with various weapons before killing it. Bravery would be displayed if the people were wounded and weakened with multiple weapons. Surely the imbalance characterises cowardice on the part of the people involved. 2A00:23EE:1330:4D82:24AF:22C6:386A:C799 (talk) 17:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Since several bullfighters have died as a consequence of being gored by a bull, a certain degree of bravery is undoubtedly involved. --Jotamar (talk) 23:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 'Several'? By that reasoning bulls, far, far  more of which have died, must be incredibly brave. By comparison bullfighters would seem to be incredibly cowardly. And that's without the wounding and weakening ritual that bulls are subjected to before the bullfighters can demonstrate their 'bravery'.
 * One might almost suspect that the bullfighters are afraid to fight unwounded bulls at their natural strength. 2A00:23EE:1208:28D3:2E21:FDA:B2D5:2B9F (talk) 15:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Banteng?
Why is banteng added as a link? Can anyone find evidence that banteng have ever been used in blood sports? Thanks!
 * Kortoso (talk) 06:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)