Talk:Bulwark (disambiguation)

Meaning
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 * A bastion is not the same as a bulwark, except in metaphor.

Both, like dozens, perhaps hundreds of other words, can be used figuratively for protection, but their core meanings are quite different. Anmccaff (talk) 22:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC) If Bastion is unacceptable then consider redirecting to Rampart (fortification) but what it should not be doing is redirecting to Bulwark (disambiguation) -- PBS (talk) 21:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)


 * OED:
 * 1.a. A substantial defensive work of earth, or other material; a rampart, a fortification. Now only arch. or poet.
 * 1.b. A breakwater, mole, sea-wall; an embankment confining the bed of a river. Also fig.
 * 2. transf. and fig. A powerful defence or safeguard. Sometimes applied to persons.
 * 3. The raised woodwork running along the sides of a vessel above the level of the deck. (Not in Bailey, Ash, or Johnson.) Usually pl.


 * Note what it does not say, carefully: it does not say "bastion." Note also that bit about "poet."   For "bastion," it seems to say, on its simpler online version "A projecting part of a fortification built at an angle to the line of a wall, so as to allow defensive fire in several directions" i.e., a flanking work. Anmccaff (talk) 23:20, 15 March 2017 (UTC)



"... and the Bisopsgate to the King's Bulwark. During the memorable siege of Derry Derry, 1688-9, these bulwarks or bastions were popularly known by other other names than the forgoing, the nine being mentioned in Description of the seige of Londonderry annexed to Neville's plan of the seige as the Double Bastion..."

-- PBS (talk) 22:45, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

As can be seen from Hill's explanation during the period of the English Civil War "bulwark" was frequently used to mean "bastion". -- PBS (talk) 22:56, 14 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Nonsense, several times over. Hill's book shows a single instance of use.  The usage here goes back to | [Pynnar], whose work the  DNB explicitly deprecated.  Next, Pynnar's survey went back more than two decades before the  Civil War even began, and more than three before the third, Irish phase.  There are a good many works about sieges and defenses in the fighting in Ireland; most, if not all, do not share your confusion about the word "bastion."


 * Your assertion is what wiki,rightly, in this case, sees as WP:OR, primary research used to support a personal conclusion. Hill does not show more that a single use, Pynnar's.  Anmccaff (talk) 23:20, 15 March 2017 (UTC)


 * You have still not produced one source to back up your assertion would you please do so. Here is another that explains what a bulwark is and how it became a bastion:
 * -- PBS (talk) 22:46, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * -- PBS (talk) 22:46, 16 March 2017 (UTC)


 * In which you will note a glossary with separate meanings for bulwark and bastion, and in which you will also note the complete absence of footnoting for the area you are citing. Wassup with that?  Anmccaff (talk) 23:53, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

from the Tale of Hank the Cinq 

''On the western side they had built up a semicircular outwork 2, known in those days as a bastille, barbican, or bulwark,''

WYLIE, James Hamilton  THE REIGN OF HENRY THE FIFTH Vol. II Cambridge, University Press 1919 p 35

It describes, essentially, a barbican made of tree trunks, reinforced with earth. Not a bastion, IOW.

''When the king came on board, her sail was hoisted 2 to half-mast as a signal to the swarms of other craft that lay scattered among the neighbouring creeks to be ready for instant departure as soon as they should get their weathering 3. As each came up she struck sail 4 to the Trinity and fell into position astern, and as they lay dotted across the haven in the gay sunlight, their red waists 5 decked with strange serpents 6, their bulwarks splayed with gay tapets 7 and hung with red-cross pavises 8, their sails 9 broidered with swans and...'' ibid p3

The footnote below for pavises gives:

''For "pavesses," see Oppenheim, Accts. 51, where they are "survivals of great shields fixed in earlier days along the bulwarks till fighting commenced."''

Note the nautical use of bulwark here. Not a bastion.

''Each of these three gates 2 had its draw- bridge and portcullis 3 and was covered by an outlying bulwark or barbican 4, curtained with a " sparrow 5 " or ravelin, according to the most approved skill that military science could command.''

Again, not a bastion.

1 For mekkokes (sic} 500 quibus quidm vocat bodewe, henges, twistes scrur' (locks), bolt ferr', &c. for making a Turris lign. vocat Bulwerk at entrance portus de Hamell for safe custody nav' carr' et al' vasorum infra portum existent' before Feb. 3, 1417, and to Thos. Tiler for covering it with tiles, boards, latts, nails, okcom (oakum), &c., see Exch. Accts. 49/29, Soper's account, where the master carpenter receives 8</. per day, and the sawyers and house-carpenters 6d. each; also for making cujusdam Bulwark apud le Hamell or le Hoke, see Iss. Roll 6 H. V, Mich., Oct. 17, 1418. ibid p 383

An account of the gate-tower...or "bulwerk" at the Hamble at the Southhampton dock. A a turris lign, i.e. a wooden tower. Not a bastion. Noticing a pattern here? Anmccaff (talk) 01:33, 17 March 2017 (UTC)


 * and it apparently shows up in the Troy Book, too:


 * ''Barbycans and also bulworkes huge
 * Afore the towne made for hyghe refuge''


 * 1412. Kinda doubt that meant "bastion".... Anmccaff (talk) 01:58, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

You seem to have shifted your position from the initial statement of "Both, like dozens, perhaps hundreds of other words, can be used figuratively for protection, but their core meanings are quite different." -- PBS (talk) 15:55, 18 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Not at all. The English usages here all very clearly denote heavy timber structures.  Wooden towers, heavy wood between gunwale and rail, wooden gate-towers.  Anmccaff (talk) 16:09, 18 March 2017 (UTC)


 * A year and a half later: Hey, all this is great, but there is still a bit of a mess left here. Right now, "bulwark" redirects to "bastion", and at bastion there is a hat note "For other uses, see Bastion (disambiguation)" but no hat nor any other means of quickly finding "Bulwark (disambiguation)".  I looked up this term because I wanted information about the naval term.  It looks like there is also a meaning for a land-based defense or fortress, but it is senseless to leave readers wondering if there is or ever was an article on the naval term.  I am not sure exactly what the right answer is.  I am guessing we should put a hat note on "Bastion" that says, "For other uses see Bulwark (disambiguation)", which I am now going to try, though it seems clumsy somehow.  If anyone has suggestions or corrections, please jump in there.  I can see that there has been some heated debate on the meaning of the term in its different contexts.  I don't want to stir that up, I only want to help folks get where they are going to.  A loose noose (talk) 14:27, 23 October 2018 (UTC)