Talk:Burak Bilgili

Future editing
I've re-written this article entirely as the previous version by another editor was a copyright violation - pasted verbatim from the subject's web site. Future editors, especially those who are affiliated in any way (personal or professional) with Burak Bilgili must adhere to the following guidelines when editing it.
 * 1. Before even starting to edit it again, please read Conflict of interest and Autobiography for guidance.
 * 2. Simlarly, Wikipedia is not a newsletter or bulletin board. Avoid terms like "now", "soon", "currently" and "recently" which make the article both imprecise, and in many instances, quickly inaccurate. Instead, use expressions such as "as of 2009".
 * 3. This is an encyclopedia article, not Mr. Bilgili's personal web site or news letter. All additions must be referenced to reliable sources. Future performances are inappropriate. Performances should be added once they have actually taken place and a reference for them can be provided.
 * 4. All additions must be neutrally worded and use encyclopedic tone and style. Any additions which can be perceived by a neutral reader as hype or PR will be removed. See Neutral point of view and Avoid peacock terms for guidance.
 * 5. Do not paste in text from your or anyone else's official websites, blogs etc. Apart from the almost invariably unsuitable promotional style, it is a copyright violation unless the sites explicitly display a public domain license. Further guidance can be found on the following pages. Please read them carefully:
 * Plagiarism
 * Close paraphrasing
 * FAQ/Copyright
 * Verifiability
 * 6. Remember, that once you have written an article on Wikipedia, you no longer own it. It will always have to conform to Wikipedia's policies on content, style and formatting – not to the subject's desired image or marketing goals.

– Voceditenore (talk) 06:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As a member of the WikiProject Opera, I totally support the actions taken by editor Voceditenore to make changes to this article. Viva-Verdi (talk) 15:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Inclusion of date of birth
It appears that user:Bbilgili and user:Avicenna23 have some objection to the inclusion of the artist's date of birth and to the fact that he made his Met debut as a last minute replacement for Michele Pertusi. I don't see how either of these facts (which are well cited) can be detrimental to the subject personally or professionally in anyway. On the contrary, this is the exact sort of information that should be found in an encyclopedia article on Bilgili. What are your thoughts Voceditenore?Singingdaisies (talk) 06:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I recently re-added the birthdate of Bilgili with a reliable reference but it has since been removed twice by 67.164.56.77 for reasons of "privacy". I don't see anything wrong with including the birthdate. The source is reliable and the information in itself does not violate any policy at Biographies of living persons. Further, the information is already easily available to the public at large at the Cardiff Singer of the World website. His birthdate isn't really a well kept secret. I'd appriciate some feedback from other editors to get some consensus. I really do not like edit warring.Singingdaisies (talk) 22:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it's not a well-kept secret. His exact date of birth is available in the BBC Cardiff reference, which is a highly reliable source. The year is also available in another of the references. As for it adversely affecting his career, I'm quite sure his age is also known to casting directors. Nevertheless, I'd leave out the exact date from the WP article (a case could be made for the remote possibility that the Wikipedia article's high visibility could lead to of identity theft). It would be perfectly acceptable to give the year of birth per the biographies of living persons policy, but frankly it's not worth an edit war, and I'd discourage it. As can be seen from their talk pages, Bbilgili who clearly also edits as 67.164.56.77, is unfortunately doing far more to create a poor impression of this singer than the publication of the year of his birth would. Voceditenore (talk) 06:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh dear. I wasn't completely aware of the tangle involving those two editors. It looks like issues have been occuring at more than just this article. Perhaps it is time to seek an admin's help?Singingdaisies (talk) 07:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * See below. Voceditenore (talk) 08:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits by User:Bbilgili and User:Avicenna23
One of these user names and these edit summaries, strongly suggest that these users may have a conflict of interest in editing this article. Once again, I urge them to read Conflict of interest and Autobiography before editing this article further.
 * The removal of the exact date of birth is acceptable for living people for matters of privacy. It's probably better to remove the "replacement" part as it's not strictly in the reference, but the fact that he was an understudy should be there. Otherwise, it gives the impression that he was engaged as the principle singer for the role, which he was not. This is the kind of "massaging of the facts" that happens with editors who may have a conflict of interest.
 * The addition the other "prizes" apart from the First Prizes in well-known singing competitions actually detracts from the Prizes section. Remember this article is not supposed to be Mr. Bigli's resume. This kind of over detail is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. Note also that none of the additions have a reference. Unless references are provided from reliable published sources that are independent of the Mr. Bilgili, additions are subject to removal by other editors. I would strongly suggest removing all of the additions apart from the First Prizes in the  Mario Lanza Opera Competition and the Siemens Art Award Opera Competition and providing proper references for them (not Mr. from Bilgili's web site). I am moving Parma Academia Lirica International (Bonaldo Giaotti,Katia Riccaerelli) to the prose biography. It may be a an honour to have been accepted as a pupil (although this has not been established in the article) but it is not a "prize". Many retired singers hold master classes and "academies" and it is inappropriately placed in that section.

– Voceditenore (talk) 06:42, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Warning: Vandalism by User:Bbilgili
This editor has now three times removed the reference for his last minute assumption of Leperello at the Met where he was engaged as an understudy and added a totally inappropriate template to the middle of the page. This has been reverted by two separate editors. User:Bbilgili, if you or 67.164.56.77 vandalize this page again, or any other page, we will have no choice but top take this to the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Please stop this. Voceditenore (talk) 08:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Bbilgili, You wrote in your edit summary:


 * "There is no word about short notice =====There is no licensing information at all".

This is the exact quote from the reference which you removed  (Simon, Scott, "An Opera Understudy's Chance to Shine", National Public Radio, 15 May 2004):
 * "NPR's Scott Simon talks with the 29-year-old Turkish bass baritone about being asked to fill in at the last minute in front of 4,000 opera aficionados. It was truly the chance of a lifetime and Bilgili made the most of it."

The citation of the source does not require "licensing". In fact, citing a valid source is required by Wikipedia. Your addition of Template:Di-no license to the middle of the article is totally inappropriate. Your repeated addition of it to the article and the removal of referenced information and the reference itself constitutes vandalism. Please stop this. You have a complete misunderstanding of Wikipedia's policies. Please read the links at the top of this page and on your user page which explain them and please stop this behaviour. Voceditenore (talk) 08:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Can we work out an acceptable wording?
Since User:Bbilgili has objected to the use of both "short notice" and "last minute" and the use of the word "understudy". Perhaps he can explain why and we can arrive at a wording that is acceptable to all editors. For example, are the following sources wrong? If so, in what way are they wrong? What evidence can he provide that they are wrong?...


 * Simon, Scott, "An Opera Understudy's Chance to Shine", National Public Radio, 15 May 2004 (Note also that Bilgili's official web site has a direct link to this article . Why would he do that if the article and its title were not accurate?)
 * NPR's Scott Simon talks with the 29-year-old Turkish bass baritone about being asked to fill in at the last minute in front of 4,000 opera aficionados. It was truly the chance of a lifetime and Bilgili made the most of it."


 * Philadelphia Inquirer, "A young singer's big gamble at the Met", May 11, 2004
 * The biggest break of a young opera singer's career shouldn't have so much going against it. The Metropolitan Opera offered Philadelphia-based Burak Bilgili the star-making role of Leporello in its acclaimed new production of Mozart's Don Giovanni. But the downside was steep: One performance, last Friday. No stage rehearsal. No orchestral rehearsal. Just three days in the studio with the assistant stage director and an extended conference with conductor...


 * Hutton, Mary Ellyn, "Swenson Headlines Opera's 05 Season", The Cincinnati Post, (subscription access)
 * Turkish bass Burak Bilgili, who made a sensational last-minute debut as Leporello in Mozart's "Don Giovanni" at the Met last spring, bows in as the philosopher Colline in "Boheme"...


 * Hürriyet, "Metropolitan'da bir Türk", 14 May 2005 (in Turkish, Google translation here) The gist of it is the same as all the others above, and it even includes a quote from Mr. Bilgili himself to the effect that he performed the role without a rehearsal, and that afterwards hundreds of people were waiting backstage to congratulate him.

In my view, it is misleading to the reader to leave out the circumstances of his Met debut completely. Frankly, they make Mr. Bilgili's success that night even more impressive. It's very unclear to me why User:Bbilgili wants that suppressed, especially on the grounds of "privacy". - Voceditenore (talk) 12:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Removal of legitimate reference tag
I support the reversion by editor Singingdaisies of the removal of this reference. This is a perfectly acceptable reference to include in this article and, by his very name, the editor who removed it is somewhat suspect in having a possible conflict of interest. Viva-Verdi (talk) 15:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)