Talk:Burlington, Ohio

Undoing wrong co-ordinates, and other issues.
There are (2) different "Burlington" in Lawrence County, Ohio.


 * Populated Place (where the people actually live called "Burlington"), what/where United States Geological Survey puts on maps.
 * The U.S. Census Designated Place, a much larger (inaccurate) area.

Un-doing the "wrong" U.S. Census Bureau CDP co-ordinates and restoring the USGS ones (where the municipality actually is).

GeoBox/InfoBox already places co-ordinates in the box and clicking on them goes to the same place Map-It does,
 * Why "Map-It"?

display=inline,title places co-ordinates in title bar (so that it "eventually" shows up in Google & elsewhere). LeheckaG (talk) 00:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Template coor dms has been deprecated in favor of Template coord;


 * To answer the above statements:
 * There are people living throughout the CDP. Please look at the GNIS source newly added: these are official USGS data.  And this is not a municipality: Lehecka, if you believe that this is, please read census-designated place
 * According to the standard community layout, Geolinks-US-cityscale is supposed to be placed in the ELs. Mapit-US-cityscale is obviously an appropriate substitute: the coding is the same, except that the template is itself not placed in as many categories.  Since Mapit and Geolinks have an identical effect on the page, either one is equally suitable
 * What's the source for coor dms being deprecated? If it is, surely some notice should be placed on the template documentation, but there's nothing of the sort there
 * Nyttend (talk) 03:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Background: Extreme points of U.S. states describes "Burlington, Ohio" as being the Southernmost point in Ohio. Searching USGS GNIS reveals:
 * Burlington	1048568	Populated Place	Lawrence	382426N	0823209W	OH	Catlettsburg	170	558	 - 	12-JUL-1979
 * Burlington	1048569	Populated Place	Fulton	413420N	0841829W	OH	Archbold	218	715	- 	12-JUL-1979
 * Burlington (historical)	1070637	Populated Place	Marion	Unknown	Unknown	OH	Unknown	- 	- 	- 	01-MAY-1992
 * Burlington (historical)	1074586	Populated Place	Stark	Unknown	Unknown	OH	Unknown	- 	- 	- 	01-OCT-1992
 * Burlington Census Designated Place	2393357	Census	Lawrence	382436N	0823141W	OH	Catlettsburg	169	554	- 	27-FEB-2008


 * Limiting the discussion to "Burlington (Uninc), Ohio and Burlington (CDP), Ohio", Fayette Township, Lawrence County:
 * Burlington (founded 1817) was the former county seat of Lawrence County before 1852 when it moved to Ironton. The Lawrence Register, Genealogical and Historical
 * At some point after that (not sure when?), Burlington no longer was an organized "home rule" (city, town, village, ...) government.
 * On the Wiki CDP page you cited, there is an example of them disambiguting:
 * former village of Covedale, Ohio, compared with Covedale (CDP), Ohio.
 * Obviously? you need to do the same with "Burlington, Ohio" and "Burlington (CDP), Ohio".


 * My specific issue is that your Wiki (U.S. Census Bureau CDP) coordinates for "Burlington, Ohio" are TOO FAR North and East. When people (other than the U.S. Census Bureau) refer to Burlington, Ohio (on a map).  The coordinates returned should be the "Populated Place" ones.  In other mapping software (Maps.Google.Com, MapQuest, Maps.Yahoo.Com, ...) when you search for "Burlington, Ohio", you receive the "Populated Place/Uninc" one.  Wiki should do the same.
 * Not a U.S. Census Bureau one - WHICH CHANGES WITH EVERY CENSUS! - i.e. Are "you" (Wiki project) going to update every such Wiki places everytime the U.S. Census Bureau updates? If you look at the Burlington (CDP) U.S. Census Bureau reference map, openRM('16000US3910352'), it includes a bunch of "empty/vacant" land to the North, which shifts the geographic center of the CDP coordinates farther North (not sure why the Easting difference).  The "real" question, if you insist on using U.S. Census Bureau CDP coordinates, is how to determine ones which are the geographic mean of the population? and then how to keep them updated every time the U.S. Census does?  NOTE: That the USGS GNIS CDP data gets updated by some "automatic" U.S. Census Bureau feed, How do you propose to do the same with Wiki?


 * If you view the source for Geolinks-US-cityscale and Mapit-US-cityscale, they are different; the difference between them is Geolinks-US-cityscale has an added "Category:Coordinates templates". Not sure how significant that is (to the WikiProject Geographic coordinates or "CDP" people)?


 * If you look at coord documentation, you can see that it supersedes several other templates including coor dms and "mapit". I had seen the "deprecated templates" references to coor dms and others on another WikiProject (geo?) page, not sure which?
 * My general issue with multiple coordinates on a page, are that the first occurrence should clearly cite a "one-click" reference to the source, like Gnis. The GR templates are "BAD" (a.k.a. USELESS), they do NOT navigate one to the "source" (i.e. something sufficient enough for publication: specific URL, page reference, ...).  A "for instance" is that I do not know how to generate a one-click reference to a U.S. Census Bureau CDP or reference map?  Then all other references should use exactly the same coordinates and cite the same reference source (NOT a "search engine" like American Factfinder, where one needs to "do something" to obtain the same results the author did!).  Unless a page describes several "related" places with each one properly described/attributed/cited.
 * For "Burlington, Ohio" my expectation is either: the geographic center of the former city/town/village or the geographic mean of the population (not the geographic center of the CDP area (which is farther North and East), but where the "center of population is"?  i.e. more people living in a given direction shifts the coordinates that way (I do not know how to retrieve that from the U.S. Census Bureau).  With CDP data, how do WikiProjects propose on keeping them up-to-date (every time the U.S. Census Bureau updates)? LeheckaG (talk) 10:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * First: Mapits etc. are required by the page that I showed you; this is not the place to dispute standards established elsewhere. It's been argued plenty of times; the WP on Geographical Coordinates even ended up hiding the Mapit and the Geolinks for some months before restoring them.  Also: the only difference between the templates is that one is in a category, and the other isn't.  That has absolutely no effect on the articles in which they're used; it's simply if you're trying to find the template itself from categories.
 * What is your source for Burlington once having been incorporated? All current Ohio county seats are incorporated, but that doesn't mean that all once were; many other states have plenty of unincorporated county seats.  Covedale, frankly, is an anomaly: the area in Covedale, Ohio is entirely within the city of Cincinnati, and the area in Covedale (CDP), Ohio is entirely without the city of Cincinnati.
 * GR templates are not "bad"; they're used throughout Wikipedia, and when they were nominated for deletion in January, the nomination was snowball kept.
 * Finally: are you very familiar with what a CDP is or how the GNIS works? Tons of stuff changes with every census (including demographics found on every municipality article), so other things than CDPs will have to be changed.  The way it's done nationwide for CDPs is to use the coords for the CDP.  If you don't want the article to be about the CDP, you have no way to determine where the community it (except where it's centered), and you need to delete at least the demographics and part of the geography section — running contrary to practice nationwide.  And also: the GNIS doesn't get "automatically updated"; it's a completely separate part of the government (Commerce Department vs. Interior Department), so the changes would only be implemented if a human intended it to.  Once again: the way this article was laid out a few days ago was the standard format for CDP articles, with standard templates and formats, and significant changes only take away from its consistency.
 * Nyttend (talk) 11:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

There is more than one Burlington in Ohio. I fixed the original issue by re-wording the Geography Southernmost-point reference so that it is more accurate (the Southernmost point in Ohio is South and West of what you/Census Bureau are now calling "Burlington"). Burlington (the place) has a lot more history and information than what can be copied from the Census Bureau. I was in the process of adding historical material and references to the Burlington, Fayette Township, Lawrence County, Ohio article when you deleted/renamed. What is the point of simply copying Census information which is already available in one place on-line and omitting all the other information which might be of value to Wikipedia users? LeheckaG (talk) 22:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for correcting the southwestern thing. I observed that the BFTLCO article had more information — the problem is that it was a wholescale addition of unsourced content.  It's one thing to have an addition of unsourced content, but when there's repeated addition (how many times have you added stuff without sources?) it's more of a problem.  Look at Lucasville, Ohio, for an example: these articles can have other information.  Bring in a good source for these pieces of text that you add, and I can't imagine that anyone would question it.  Finally, about the other communities: there aren't any other Burlingtons statewide with articles about them.  Write sourced articles about one or more other Burlingtons, and that will change things.  Nyttend (talk) 03:09, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You keep undoing back to inaccuracy. According to the Lawrence County Recorder (official/legal government agency in the State of Ohio), "Burlington" is 50 acres (to the South and West of the CDP).  As you keep adjusting the article, it is not "factual".  What initially "bothered" me is that the CDP coordinates are inaccurate to describe (the CDP) as the "Southernmost" point in Ohio.  What has escalated is the claim that they are the same?  According to the State of Ohio, "Burlington" is legally about 50 acres, so I guess all the Census figures (square miles, ...) are "wrong"?  I am making a point that over-relying on U.S. Census figures and statistics in pointless.  There are facts about "Burlington" which are not true for the CDP and vice-versa.  I am trying to make constructive edits (there are 13+ "Burlingtons" in Ohio, the CDP is a "figment" of the U.S. Census Bureau.  Apparently deleting unsourced statements rather than flagging/tagging them is considered vandalism under Wiki Policy?  Like I posted the 2 CDP/PP GNIS records as a comment in the Infobox, and it still inaccurate, you state the CDP figures, but cite/credit the PP reference (which is flat out inaccurate/wrong). LeheckaG (talk) 04:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The census map you supply in reference to making the "Southern-most" point claim graphically shows the Southern-most point as being "between Burlington and South Point", and one might ask why "South Point" is so named? Your census map substantiates the statement that the Southern-most point is "South and West" of Burlington.  LeheckaG (talk) 04:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "South Point, Most Southerly Point of Ohio, Overlooking Three States, Two Rivers"  The State of Ohio parrots this fact . LeheckaG (talk) 08:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * After the multiple Coordinates/External links issue was raised at WikiProject_Cities/Guideline, WikiProject Cities subsequently removed the Guideline recommending placing Geo coordinates in External Links. LeheckaG (talk) 09:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The source for the Census Bureau county map is found at http://www2.census.gov/geo/maps/general_ref/cousub_outline/cen2k_pgsz/oh_cosub.pdf : if you zoom in as far as possible, say 800%, it will be obvious that the farthest south point is Burlington. South Point is plainly the most southerly village in the state, but the village limits do not include the most southerly point in the state. As to your other problems, the inconsistencies: this is the result of someone overlooking something, not an intent to confuse. Nyttend (talk) 12:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, if you take the addresses from the NRHP website for those three NRHP locations in Burlington and put them into Google, the jail and the cemetery appear to be nearly half a mile away from each other: I can't imagine that they're within a fifty-acre area, unless the acres are pretty much in a line. Nyttend (talk) 12:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I live almost equidistant between the Jail and the Cemetery. The Cemetery is just over 1 block from my house in a westerly direction. The Jail is less than 2 blocks in a southerly direction. Both would easily fit within a 50 acre block. If you rely on GPS locations, they are faulty. Each and every Civilian GPS system places my residence more than 3 blocks from it's actual location. This link is to Google Maps, street view, and is immediately in front of the old Jail house. If you travel west along the road to the next intersection, you will then turn right, and approximately 200 yards on the west side will be the cemetery. https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4075628,-82.5286825,3a,75y,165.07h,87.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNLRjPi6Zkuv0BB1qvQavlA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.106.170.89 (talk) 12:55, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

South Point School District
While Burlington is in the South Point School District, most of Lawrence County and Perry County are. All of the South Point School District facilities and schools are in the Village of South Point, outside of the Burlington CDP. So What is the justification for including something outside of the CDP in this article? Beyond a mention that Burlington students ride a bus into South Point and see the South Point article about the School District. "Burlington Elementary School" is located in South Point and NOT Burlington (CDP or PP). Same issue with the "Southernmost point of Ohio". LeheckaG (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Look at this listing: there are nine school districts in Lawrence County; Perry County is several counties away, so I'm not sure what you mean. It's only right to include a note on where local children attend school, but as you note, it's not right to include such a large section as is included here.  Nyttend (talk) 12:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * By the way, put the Burlington Elementary address from here into Google Maps: it's plainly in Burlington. Nyttend (talk) 12:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Typo "Perry Township" (and Fayette Township). LeheckaG (talk) 16:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, to "further confuse things",
 * the U.S. Postal Service considers Burlington as "South Point" (because of the common zip code),
 * and I did not initially catch that it was "on the other side" of Burlington.
 * Burlington Elementary School
 * 8781 County Road 1
 * South Point, OH 45680

http://www.southpoint.k12.oh.us/BE

External links-coordinates
Thank you for cleaning up the coordinates so that they are consistently the CDP ones.

when it was pointed out that they are redundant, WP City removed them from the Guidelines.
 * Please remove coordinates from external links,

the recommended template is Gnis which accepts the 7-digit "Feature ID #", and optionally alternative text (instead of the article title). LeheckaG (talk) 19:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please use a standard template to post the GIS reference link,

Unsubstantiated Southernmost
The claim: "Burlington is located at 38.41°N, -82.52806°W (38.4100106, -82.5281600), at Ohio's southernmost point."
 * grates on me like "nails on a chalkboard":


 * Saying just "Burlington" versus "Burlington CDP" is inaccurate, the "town" PP and CDP have different locations and sizes/ranges.
 * Burlington CDP does NOT equal the "Town of Burlington".
 * The CDP also includes the Town of Brookdale to the West, the Town of Walnut Park to the East;
 * not sure whether the CDP also includes either Town of Brayfield to the North, or Sybene to the East?


 * Please fix by clarifying that "Burlington" in this context and coordinates is referring to the CDP.


 * The coord template supersedes the coor templates, so recommend using it instead,
 * you replace "coor dms" with just "coord", and "city" should be "region:US-OH_type:city_source:GNIS",
 * you can also override "type=" by setting "scale=";
 * optional parameters are "display=" which you can set to "=inline", "=title", or ="display,title"
 * the effect is where the coordinates appear (in the text, or in the article title bar),
 * another optional parameter is "format=" which can be set to "=decimal" or "=dms" which allows you to set how coordinates display,
 * the last optional parameter is "name=" which allows you to label the mark displayed on a map.


 * The "at" especially when the coordinates displayed at not the "at" is the thing which bothers me the second most
 * (after then disambiguation CDP/PP a.k.a. "Town" issue(s) above - not to mention the 11 other "Burlingtons" in Ohio).
 * Saying that is "South and West of the ..." is still the most accurate/factual.
 * I am trying to dig up the current legal official definitions of the State of Ohio, Village of South Point, and other relevant legal borders.
 * It is taking some time, The Lawrence County Recorder should have them on file, but their on-line search is currently not working.
 * Alternatively, I am digging up what the State of Ohio and other (non-Census) federal government agencies have,
 * and it is taking some time ... LeheckaG (talk)


 * There are no official "towns" in Ohio: we have normal municipalities called villages, unlike in Alaska, but no towns. Why don't you trust that the Census map when it shows that South Point doesn't include the exact southern point?  The Atlas & Gazetteer series is also quite a reliable source; what's wrong with it when it clearly displays the Burlington area, not the South Point area, at the southern point?  Nyttend (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I am familiar with Ohio's civil subdivisions: under ORC Title 1 "State" lands surveyed into sometimes irregular 5x5 or 6x6 mile Townships; then under ORC Title 2, 88 Counties were created, each spanning a group of several platted 5x5 or 6x6 Townships. Under ORC Title 3 Township have certain responsibilities, and "Towns" can be loosely organized within Townships (any such legal standing of a "Town" is limited to/an extension of that particular Township's local government and not the formal legal municipal incorporation imposed by County-State government.  Under ORC Title 5, Villages and Cities have certain minimum requirements, and the citizen-organizers of them need to file an incorporation petition with the County government.  So an Ohio "Town" legal standing and "independent" powers is dependent on its relationship with its Township under ORC Title 3 Townships.  Alaska has a similar tiered-structure with 1st-class cities (similar to if Cleveland and Cuyahoga county merged into a unified government), 2nd-class cities which are roughly the equivalent of either Ohio cities or villages, 1st-class Boroughs which are similar to Counties, and 2nd-class Boroughs which are similar to Ohio Townships.  The "Unorganized Borough" is the "legal/official catch all county-equivalent" for the "wide-open spaces" between denser population centers, many parts of Alaska have relatively low or no taxes, and there is a push by some legislators to organize otherwise unorganized areas (so that they are no longer on the "state dole" and probably end up having to pay municipal taxes).  Civics aside...
 * One issue is how the federal and State of Ohio governments spell out the Ohio border? To me, Enabling Act of 1802, more or less made Ohio's Southern border as the Northern line of the Ohio River (the Enabling Act does not spell it out exactly that clearly - which is the first issue).  The issue with a water-boundary, is that what it was then (when it was first surveyed, either before or after Ohio Statehood)? Is it what it is Today? (waterlines "move")  Is it a high-water, "normal" water, low-water, ...?  There are two things which particularly demonstrate the point:  The Enabling Act spelled out the South-West corner as being the Great Miami River mouth on the Ohio.  If you check where it is Today, you will see that the Great Miami River mouth has moved farther East, leaving the border corner to the West.  If you take that as an example, then exactly where was the border in 1802 (and the Southernmost point)?  To counter that example, if you take a look at how the federal government and State of Ohio have handled the Lake Erie shoreline (with both erosion and the opposite - sedimentary deposits), they (U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and Ohio Department of Natural Resources) have sometimes been at odds with each other, and usually Ohio lakefront landowners end up "losing" in the process (long discussion ...).
 * If you read through the disclaimers on the U.S. Census Bureau website ... while they attempt to coordinate with other agencies/governments, their census boundaries do not always agree with the official/legal ones. On other "official" maps (either on-line or printed), Ohio's Southern border is depicted anywhere from the Northern edge of the Ohio River to mid-channel.
 * So where it is at: South Point claims to be the Southernmost point.  How did a similar "Burlington" claim get into the Burlington CDP article?  What was the source?  I have a couple spots plotted in Google Earth which are my best and second-best estimate of where the Southernmost point on the Ohio River bank is, but without knowing where the official border is (as either defined by the State of Ohio, or a government agency with the power and authority to do Cadastral Surveys ... last time I checked the U.S. Census Bureau counts people and has no legal authority over land surveys, borders, ...  seems like something the Bureau of Land Management and Geological Survey has authority over.
 * There are a few sources for an authoritative answer, the first would be the Lawrence County Recorder. A secondary source would be other State of Ohio agencies, the BLM, or the USGS.
 * I have run into issues where coordinates and maps were "off" because over the years coordinate datums have moved to be more accurate see North American Datum. From example, if you read the description of Ohio's Eastern and Western boundaries, the Enabling Act described the Western border as being due (geographic) North and South, but if you look at/measure it Today, the North and South end of the border do not have the same longitudes.  There are a couple of reasons for this, the first is that we can survey more accurately Today then back then.  But the bigger portion of the variance is due to the reference coordinate datum (the basis for the coordinates) shifting.
 * When looking at someone else's map, the first question is what projection is it (how "true" is it for what it is being used for?) In general, most of the Ohio maps should have relatively accurate N-S, E-W lines, so when I see one with diagonal ones (like the Census ones) it is pretty suspect.
 * In the back of my mind I am pondering what is up with some Ohio county/township maps on Wiki being "slanted", where North points at an angle.
 * Which makes them somewhat useless to use which a "Location map" template or other shared uses. LeheckaG (talk) 22:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I remember reading that, a few decades ago, the Ohio River rose for some reason, and the states on the northern side were unhappy to lose ground; so they sued in federal court, and the courts ruled that the boundaries were not to be adjusted by changes, but that instead they were to remain where they were originally (the same principle applies with the results of oxbow lakes, such as with Carter Lake, Iowa. This explains why the boundaries do not always follow either the northern edge or a constant location somewhere in the river: in some places the river expanded a bit, and in others not at all.  The Census Bureau, of course, does not have authority over this, but it makes these maps to demonstrate where the boundaries are; if you look at the source for the image placed on your talk page, the South Point border is quite plainly not at the southern point.  Let's imagine that it's the early 1800s, and we're starting a community just below Burlington: although the core of our community is north of the southern point, we're expecting that it will grow toward that way, encompassing the southern point of the state of Ohio.  It's only reasonable to call it South Point, and our greatgreatgreatgreatgrandchildren, seeing that the community is farther south than any other village in the state, are likely to put up one of those historical markers saying that it's at the southern point.  You are more aware of Ohio geography and local government than I thought; perhaps you're aware of anomalies such as Center Township, Williams County, Ohio, which isn't at all in the center?  I'm just trying to demonstrate that the names might not always reflect reality precisely.  Nyttend (talk) 04:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

FIPS Code
General question: but not familiar with the FIPS nn-nnnnn codes being listed on the Census-derived articles. Are they FIPS 55-2 state nn- and FIPS 55-3 place -nnnnn codes? LeheckaG (talk) 19:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I know what the Federal Information Processing Standard is, and I am familiar with most of the FIPS publications,
 * Given a nn-nnnnn code, where/how can one look up the Census data associated with it?
 * If so, can a "one-click link be provided there to retrieve the appropriate census page?


 * I really don't know; I've tried to find FIPS listings, but I don't know where to get them, since they've largely been replaced by GNIS feature IDs. Nyttend (talk) 22:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I know that the FIPS 55-3 code publication standards are "hidden away" a.k.a. archived on the NIST site
 * (I was able to find the "obsoleted" published standard),
 * and that a "dump" of the code lists can still be downloaded from the U.S.G.S. (until the 2010 Census)
 * My question was is the FIPS (55-3 place) code of any "value"?
 * Apparently the Census still uses it, but I suppose why publish it?
 * unless either a one-click link can be provided to the corresponding Census data,
 * or if there is a Census search page which accepts it?

LeheckaG (talk) 00:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You can find the FIPS for governments with a one-click reference. Ohio is available at http://www.census.gov/popest/cities/files/SUB-EST2006_39.csv; you want the PLACE column.  I don't know about non-governments, whether Iowa townships or CDPs in any state.  Tell me if you want the links for all states for the charts that include the FIPS codes.  Nyttend (talk) 03:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This page lists FIPS codes for CDPs: townships aren't listed, but CDPs and all non-MCD governments appear to be listed. Nyttend (talk) 13:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is a "one-click link" to access data using FIPS 55-3 codes. For example, Boston has a FIPS place code of 07000 and Massachusetts has a FIPS state code of 25. The URL for the link woudl be http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/25/2507000.html. This only works for what the Census Bureau calls "places", however. A more useful kind of link might be http://censtats.census.gov/data/CT/0600900580490.pdf (where 06 means the area is a MCD, 009=state code, 005=county code, 80490=MCD code) and http://censtats.census.gov/data/CT/1600952000.pdf (where 16 means the area is a place, 009=state code, 52000=place code). --Polaron | Talk 14:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Just adding that you also need to fix the state postal code in the URL in the above links. --Polaron | Talk 14:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank You! The information you supplied (Census links with the FIPS 55-2,3,4 codes embedded) was exactly what I was looking for. So that I do not "re-invent" someone else's work, Has anyone created a Wiki template to build any of those links from the Census/FIPS codes (similar to what Template Gnis does for GNIS feature IDs)? LeheckaG (talk) 17:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

New additions
Is it just me, or are these new additions too much? Surely there's nothing wrong with this material, being well sourced and all, but there aren't any dams near Burlington. There's no article, say, about Ohio River dams or Borders of Ohio or something like that: wouldn't it be better to move most of this material to articles such as these, leaving only summaries here? Nyttend (talk) 13:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that the good article-stub for Extreme points of Ohio and the supporting background material can be moved to its own article (not sure if there has been a standard naming convention for them). The Ohio's other three points (East, North, and West) are less disputed than the Southernmost, and they are at "border corners" with surveyed monuments and sufficient background source reference materials.
 * I do not know how/where the "Southernmost" claim got into the Burlington article? While such a claim may be true for one of the CDP towns (because the CDP towns are not necessarily completely contained in the CDP boundaries), it is definitely not true for the CDP itself (because the CDP definitely does NOT include any of the land between the Ohio River current maximum high-water mark and 1787 low-water).  So no such claim of "at" or "in" can be made regarding the CDP.  "near" or (direction of) "of" claims can be made without an issue. LeheckaG (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I keep disambiguating between the CDP and the town (because there are 7 other towns in the CDP). The other towns (including Burlington as a town) should each eventually receive some attention in the article besides being lumped in the CDP together.  Stop undoing the disambiguation!   LeheckaG (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Nyttend here - the Notes are longer than the article. I think some of the history on the Ohio River levels could just be in the History section, assuming there is proof that Burlington had a river port (assume so). Almost none of the notes makes specific ,mention of Burlington though - how did the 1937 Flood affect it? The whole writing style is a bit incoherent - if I did not know this was about the southernmost point in Ohio claim, I am not sure where I would figure this out.


 * I also fail to see what the listing of dams over 20 miles away has to do with this place. Why not put this into the Greenup, Kentucky article? I am also troubled by uncited statements like The CDP is so named because the town of Burlington was both the most notable, being the first and previous Lawrence County seat, of the eight-named towns in the CDP, as well as the closest to the geographic center of the CDP boundaries. which reads like Original Research. I am also very concerned about the misuse of sources - the footnote in According to United States Geological Survey, Geographic Names Information System, the southernmost named feature in Ohio is: Ankrims Run (stream) 38°24′15″N 82°33′24″W﻿ / ﻿38.40417, -82.55667﻿ (Ankrims Run (stream)), elevation: 538 feet (164 m)[13] in Lawrence County. only gives the coordinates, it does not say this is the southernmost named feature. I have typed parts ofthis three times now and will stop. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 17:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If it was any other point other than an "extreme" point, I would not spend the time and effort.
 * If it was not an extreme point, Within a mile or two would be "close enough" to say "at" or "in" for most people.
 * But because we are talking about an "extreme" point, relative accuracy becomes important (consider the Everest versus K-2 debates)
 * especially when Wikipedia is supposed to be an on-line encyclopedia.


 * The whole point of the Ohio River-"dam" thing was to show that the:
 * Southernmost point in Ohio falls outside of the CDP boundaries as defined by the Census Bureau.
 * There seem to have been some "non-believers" to that fact, I hope they are convinced by now that:
 * Census bureau says CDP is "all land",
 * U.S. Supreme Court ruling (cited) showed that the State of Ohio boundary remained in place, while the Ohio River "moved" because of high-water
 * So Southernmost point, can NOT be "at" or "in" the CDP ...


 * If you read through the USACE dam materials: the Greenup, Kentucky dam downstream raises the water levels for 61.8 mi upstream (past the Burlington CDP) by up to a 30 ft high-water mark. Yes, it is miles away, the point was that it raised the water levels around the CDP area (for "62 miles").  If you look at a modern aerial or satellite photograph, the Ohio River is between 1000 ft and 1500 ft wide in the area (the current river depths vary from 10 ft to 30 ft), compared with the Ohio River low-water being 1 ft when the State of Ohio border was determined and the area was settled.  If you consider what that means:
 * If the Ohio River depth went back from 10 ft down to 1 ft, assuming proportional (1:1) river slopes:
 * its corresponding width decreases from 1250 ft to 125 ft.
 * Hopefully, I do not need to provide more examples than those above?
 * Like explaining the 1:1 slope issue, why the slope is 1:1 or "shallower" than steeper slopes "avalanche".
 * Shallower slopes would me that it would be even narrower with the same decrease in depth.
 * Point is that the Southernmost point is within a mile or two
 * (possibly supporting South Point's claim on what used to be dry land near South Point),
 * but it is not at or in the CDP.


 * I would not call a query of USGS GNIS database for the Feature ID with the lowest latitude in the State of Ohio "original" research. Entering a database query for the smallest number in a database is far less "original research" than someone "without all the facts" looking at a modern map and picking what "appears" to be the Southernmost point.  Did they have knowledge of the Ohio border and its history, and what "can go wrong" with coordinates and map projections?  I am seeing a few "bad map projections" on Wikipedia and they are often from official federal/state sources, so I do not place too much faith in map projections.  Nor do I place 100% faith in GNIS, if you look at the coordinates in the article, there are more which I Wiki commented out which were either "bad", "duplicate", or "historical" - all obtained from GNIS.  I usually try to verify everything with at least two reference sources when possible.


 * I would not call looking at a plot of the Census Tract boundary (from Census.Gov) overlayed with GNIS for the (8) communities "original" research.
 * When the Census provides a coordinate for Census Tract (CA, CDP, MSA) it is the geographic center of such a tract
 * (I can dig up the specifics from Census.Gov if you wish?)
 * If you click on Burlington's "Map all coordinates" on the menu provided by the GeoGroupTemplate under the Infobox, and zoom in,
 * You can see where the Burlington CDP coordinate is (#1)
 * (it is not "labeled" because every time I have updated that particular coor dms template line someone has reverted it)
 * it should use coord instead of coor dms, and have "region:US-OH_type:city_source:GNIS|name=Burlington CDP" specified.
 * There also should not be a Map-it in the external links, they updated City/Guidline after I asked and pointed out the duplication.
 * You can see where the other coordinates are relative to it and Burlington (town) a.k.a. Populated place is visually closest to (center) #1.
 * The (3) closest to the center #1 are: Brayfield, Burlington, and Walnut Park.
 * If you either measure on an appropriate map projection (Google maps in a web browser is not 100% because aspect ratio issues),
 * or compare the difference in their coordinates,
 * then Brayfield drops out as being farther away, and the remaining Burlington and Walnut Park are very close.
 * Between the remaining Burlington and Walnut Park, you need to view it with an appropriate projection of the census tract boundaries.
 * If you understand graph theory and root mean square differences,
 * visually Burlington has a lower root mean square difference
 * (i.e. a closer "center" than Walnut Park which is closer to a boundary).
 * If you want, I can "do the math" (not sure if that would be verifying what appears visually or original research)?

LeheckaG (talk) 20:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Ohio Revised Code - Towns
"Bottom Line" of the following:
 * Ohio "Towns" are a legally-recorded instrument (plat map and survey) filed with the County Recorder, so they:
 * DO exist in the State of Ohio,
 * Do NOT have any additional "powers" granted directly by the State of Ohio,
 * May have additional powers granted by a County or Township (but limited to the powers a County or Township has itself and so grants).

To find out anything "official" about a specific town requires going through a County Recorder's or Township Clerk's (paper/microfilm) archives.
 * Over time, some Counties and Townships are putting records on-line, but they generally have huge backlogs of records not on-line.

There may also be "Territorial towns" which were formed before Ohio was granted statehood?
 * (not sure about that - just thinking outside of the box)

Under Ohio Revised Code:
 * "Towns" are a surveyed and platted subdivision of Township Land creating "Town Lots",
 * which are "independently"-owned (outside of an Incorporated Municipality: City or Village).
 * The parent Township and County have platting/zoning supervisory authority over plats/towns (i.e. approval or denial).

"Towns" (platted collections of town lots) are legally recorded by the County Recorder.
 * The ORC codifies "town lots"; it requires some Common Law and Surveying knowledge to realize plats of "town lots" are towns:

i.e. "Towns" were/are codified under United States Code, such as:
 * US CODE--TITLE 43--PUBLIC LANDS CHAPTER 17--RESERVATION AND SALE OF TOWN SITES ON PUBLIC LANDS
 * most of the Chapter has been subsequently repealed except for provisions for Alaska Native villages.

An Ohio "town" does not have any independent municipal authority (government, taxation, ...) granted to it by the State of Ohio,
 * UNLESS so granted to it by the parent Township or County.
 * Its (only) inherit sovereignty is its owners' rights which go along with to the land.

Basically,
 * surveyed/subdivided land for which the owners and residents have not applied for Municipal (city or village) incorporation with the State of Ohio.
 * If a county or township grants a town any "powers",
 * then they are limited to the powers which the county or township has to grant, and has so granted.

Since a "town" is not separately incorporated by the State of Ohio, it can either be:
 * an extension of County or Township government,
 * or it can be an "independent" (again within the limits granted by a County or Township)
 * unincorporated Cooperative or unincorporated Partnership
 * (which are recognized under the Ohio Revised Code).

---
 * TITLE VII MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS - Chapter 711 Plats See 711.24 and 711.25 town lots not within a municipal corporation

CHAPTER 301: ORGANIZATION CHAPTER 317: RECORDER 317.08 Records to be kept by county recorder. CHAPTER 319: AUDITOR 319.20 Transfer of title and tax value of property. CHAPTER 323: COLLECTION OF TAXES 323.41 Duty of holder of land to pay taxes ...
 * TITLE III COUNTIES See "town lot" or "town lots":

CHAPTER 5701: DEFINITIONS 5701.02 Real property definitions. CHAPTER 5721: DELINQUENT LANDS: 5721.13 Delinquent land tax certificate - master list of delinquent tracts. 5721.24 Entry marked redeemed made upon tax duplicate and delinquent tax list. 5721.26 Redemption where co-owner is not joined. 5721.27 Erroneous charge of taxes. CHAPTER 5723: FORFEITED LANDS 5723.01 Forfeited lands.
 * TITLE 57 TAXATION See "town lot" or "town lots":

LeheckaG (talk) 18:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * TITLE V TOWNSHIPS See 501 Surveyed, 503 Provisions, 504 Limited Home Rule, 519 Zoning.


 * The standard format for Wikipedia's US geography articles is the legal status: if it's a municipality, we call it what type of municipality; if it's unincorporated and a CDP, we call it a CDP; and if it's unincorporated and not a CDP, we call it something else: in parts of New England, a village, and virtually everywhere else, an unincorporated community. I don't know about what it's like in Alaska, but as an Ohio native I can tell you that Ohioans typically use "town" to mean a specific little area settled with houses and possibly other buildings — regardless of the incorporation status — and I'd guess that such is the meaning of the law.  As "town" is ambiguous in Ohio, and as it's quite precise in other states (including Indiana and West Virginia), it's best not to use it in an Ohio context.  Nyttend (talk) 19:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

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