Talk:Burundi/Archive 1

Bias
Can somebody who knows something about Burundian history get rid of the bias in this article? There are numerous mentions Tutsis killing Hutus and Hutu oppresion which sound dangerously close to some of the same propaganda that the Hutu government of Rwanda put out before the genocide. Compare the wikipedia article to the article found at the state dept. website:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2821.htm

For example, the origins of Burundi in the wikipedia article:

"The earliest inhabitants of the area were the pygmoid Twa. Followed by the Hutu who then co-habited in harmony for numerous years. The Tutsi were the last inhabitants of Burundi, yet they took over by a military regime and forced their monarchy unto the Hutus and Twas. The Tutsi set up a social pyramid where the Hutus and Twas were consistently oppressed."

State department:

"In the 16th century, Burundi was a kingdom characterized by a hierarchical political authority and tributary economic exchange. A king (mwani) headed a princely aristocracy (ganwa) that owned most of the land and required a tribute, or tax, from local farmers and herders. In the mid-18th century, this Tutsi royalty consolidated authority over land, production, and distribution with the development of the ubugabire--a patron-client relationship in which the populace received royal protection in exchange for tribute and land tenure. "

The History of Burundi page:

"Origins of Burundi are known from a mix of oral history and archaeology. There are two main founding legends for Burundi. The one most promoted today tells a tale of a Rwandan named Cambarantama founding the nation. The other version, more common in pre-colonial Burundi, says that Cambarantama came from the southern state of Buha. The notion of Rwandan origins for the kingdom was promoted by the European colonizers for it fit their ideals of a ruling class coming to the area from the Hamitic northeast. The theory has continued to be the semi-official dogma of the modern Burundian state. Historians doubt the Hamitic origins of the Tutsis, but it is still believed that their ancestors migrated from the north to what is now Burundi in the 15th century. The first evidence of the Burundian state is from 16th century where it emerged on the eastern foothills. Over the next centuries it expanded, annexing smaller neighbours and competing with Rwanda. Its greatest growth occurred under Ntare Rugamba, who ruled the nation from about 1796 to 1850 and saw the kingdom double in size." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.152.3 (talk) 07:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

At least some of the text in Burundi comes from this web page: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/bgn/index.cfm?docid=2821 (Burundi/Transnational issues) Is it confirmed that the original is public domain? Even if it is, maybe the source should be mentioned? - The Burundi text does come from that page and from a page of the CIA World Factbook; both of them are indeed in the public domain. My opinion of the matter is that the information was compiled on tax dollars, which means it's a work for hire for the United States public; I don't see acknowledgement of the source as especially pressing. But that is just my opinion and I have been known to have radical opinions. With I think two exceptions, all of the Countries of the world are from these two sources. --Koyaanis Qatsi

It doesn't hurt to acknowledge the source; it would give the text more credibility, and would give the reader an opportunity to find more information.

Republic of Burundi VS. Republika y'u Burundi
Why do we not use English in the intro? Isn't having the native forms on infobox enough? --Menchi 04:57, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Not sure why; I just followed the example of other countries' leads, but I have been far from consistent on that front (as the various leads are not, for that matter). I posted a comment on the Forum for Encyclopedic Standards wrt the standardization of country leads. I invite you to comment there on the items I brought up &mdash; or raise new ones. El_C 05:38, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Landlocked
How many times is the word landlocked going to be in the opening paragraph before someone figured out another place to highlight the fact that they are landlocked.

Vandalism
What's with the recent little vandalism edits? -- Christian Edward Gruber 01:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Religion
http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/province.cfm?ID=B2 claims at least 650,000 members, which does not correspond to the figures stated in the Demographics section. Oneeye 12:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject
In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Eastern Africa at WikiProject Council/Proposals whose scope would include Burundi. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Former name
I've removed the sentences "The former name was Urundi-Ubrundi-Bruwanda. Urundi is the shortened form of "Urundi Rwanda" ("The other Rwanda"), as the Belgian colonial powers formerly referred to the territory." I can see no evidence or citation for this statement. The former name of this territory, including present-day Rwanda and Burundi, was Ruanda-Urundi, as the "History" section of this article makes clear. Kahuzi 21:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Poorly written
It seems to me that much of this whole article is poorly written and needs to be reworded. I do not mean to offend the author and am glad he worked on it, but many of the body paragraphs are grammatically incorrect or extremely simplistic, (i.e. it sounds like a second-grader wrote it). Please change the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.47.150.161 (talk) 01:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC). I agree. The article is very poorly written.
 * I've edited some of the little items that stuck out to me, but after reading it, I believe it has great quality now. I suppose after a year of work it would become better. --Bookinvestor (talk) 17:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

1972 Genocide
The information on this page about the 1972 killings differs dramatically from the "Burundi Genocide" page. I suspect that the latter is closer to the truth, with less of a polemical tone. Shouldn't the two be brought in accordance with one another? Rosecrans 02:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Rosecrans is definitely onto something here. Most sources I've seen estimate the 1972 death toll as between 200,000 and 300,000. And while it does seem likely that the majority of Burundi's genocide victims have been Hutu (if for no other reason than that the majority of the population is Hutu while Tutsis dominated Burundi's elite for most of the post-colonial era), the idea that only a "few" Tutsis have been victims of genocide is tantamount to negationism. A 1996 UN report, for example, found that the massacres of Tutsi civilians orchestrated by Hutu politicians in the aftermath of the 1993 assassination by Tutsi soldiers of President Ndadaye constituted "acts of genocide". - http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/burundi_coi/burundi_coi1996pt5.html#II Rcameronw 13:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Well
Today they just murdered a Russian diplomat.

-G

Reaction: What do you want to mean with "today they just murdered a russian diplomat?" I assume there is an presumption behind your statement which I suspect very negative about Burundi and Burundians, and I would like you to clarify that story with the whole background if you can and the development from the investigation commission.

-Leo N.

Uganda, Burundi's neighbor !?
I decided to delete this article because of it's total inaccuracy:

"Bilateral relations with neighboring Uganda have recently become strained after the discovery of oil on Lake Kyoga, near the town of Kenyi, Uganda. The Lord's Resistance Army, the rebel group responsible for a brutal reign of terror in Uganda and Burundi's border region has begun to rearm around the borders. International observers wonder how long the tenuous cease fire will last. "

I'm surprised to learn that Burundi and Uganda are neighbours I didn't know that untill I saw that in this stupid article. Excuse me for calling it stupid but I think it is stupid to right about a country without consulting a map. In fact, Burundi has no frontier with Uganda whatsoever, and the Lord Resistance Army (LRA) has never been operating in Burundi. Also there's no tentions between the two countries about natural gas in Lake Kivu, because Burundi will need first to have a single inch of access to that lake which is something like 20miles away from it's nothernmost border.

- Leo N, an offended citizen

ps. Though I'ld like to thank everybody collaborating and contributing to Wiki projects, and the author of the article too for the efforts they constantly are making for providing information.

Very Poorly Written
The section "Genocide and mass killings" is very poorly written and is not referenced either.

86.140.159.159 01:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup required
History Section needs editing in line with the separate History of Burundi and Burundi Civil War articles, with detail moved there and a summary to remain here. The section on genocide and mass kilings needs a rewrite, breaking into paras with subheads, and to be integrated with and subheaded under other material, either History or Civil War as background/precursor material. Rexparry sydney 05:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

July 2008
you should add more things that has to do whith its goverment —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.163.64.242 (talk) 15:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Questions
This article states in its first section : - Political unrest occurred throughout the region because of social differences between the Tutsi and Hutu. - What are the social differences between Hutu and Tutsi? I assume Tutsis are richer than Tutsis?

Do they live in different parts of town? Do the Tutsis have better quality housing in the better parts of town? Do Tutsi children have better access to education? Are Tutsis disproportionately represented in government jobs - seemingly the most stable job in the country.
 * If you would read the article, then your questions would be

The Burundi culture section states the following : - When several Burundians of close acquaintance meet for a gathering they drink impeke, a beer, from a large container. Each person receives a straw to symbolize unity. I ask myself do the Hutus and Tutsis mix socially. Would they traditionally drink impeke together?

tk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.83.231 (talk) 16:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

How are military groups like CNDD-FDD and the NLF funded?

This article on Burundi states the following :

- a cease-fire was signed in 2003 between the Tutsi controlled Burundian government and the largest Hutu rebel group, CNDD-FDD (National Council for the Defense of Democracy-Forces for the Defense of Democracy). -

&

- As of 2008, the Burundian government is talking with the Hutu-led Palipehutu-National Liberation Forces (NLF)[27] to bring peace within the country.[28] -

Are CNDD-FDD and NLF guerilla organisations? Is it possible to find out what governments/private companies are backing them up? Then I ask myself why? These soldiers must be fed, trained in weapon use, and reimbursed for their 'labour'.

The wealth and funding required to create and maintain these 'guerilla' armies is hardly generated in Burundi ( - one of the poorest countries in the world. )

Answers to questions like these would be greatly appreciated.

-tk- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.83.231 (talk) 16:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Burundi economy - Are there many foreign companies in Burundi

The section on the Burundi economy states the following : - Burundi's natural resources include uranium, nickel, cobalt, copper, and platinum.[49] Besides agriculture, other industries include: assembly of imported components; public works construction; food processing, and light consumer goods such as blankets, shoes, and soap. - Are foreign companies doing businees in Burundi? Are the natural resources of Burundi, (uranium, nickel, cobalt, copper, and platinum) extracted and expploited? If there are foreign companies operating in Burundi, would they significantly affect the politics and stability of the country?

-tk- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.83.231 (talk) 16:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think some of your questions are necessary to address in the article. If you would have read the article more thoroughly, you would not be confused. Also, Tutsis are richer than Tutsis doesn't make sense. As with any other African nation's government which is currently unstable, very little information is available.  miranda   20:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

OK point accepted, on reading the the 'Economy' part of the article I see that Burundi's main export is coffee. I assume Burundi's natural mineral resources are not currently axtracted and exploited. ( Which could be a big earner for the government ) The mistake I made regarding 'Tutsis being richer than tutsis' should obviously read 'tutsis richer than Hutus.' I do think all my questions are very relevant to this article though.

The questions I added regarding the funding of the military organizations, have also been added to other Wikipedia articles discussing military organizations in different parts of Africa. HOW THEY ARE FUNDED AND BY WHOM to me is very relevant.

Lastly I'd like to thank you for responding to my queries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.83.231 (talk) 21:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the government would reveal such information to the public about what organizations fund the army/military. But, you can do independent research on that topic. :-)  miranda   04:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Errors?
I've been translating this article into Finnish and I've been struck by a few glaring errors. In the geography-section it said that Burundi is the smallest country in Africa, which certainly is not the case (I already corrected this). In politics, it reads that "As of 2004, the Transitional National Assembly consists of 170 members, with the Front for Democracy in Burundi holding 38% of seats, and 10% of the assembly is controlled by UPRONA. Fifty-two seats are controlled by other parties." This however seems to be completely false and the numbers don't match–according to this site the Assebly only has 118 members and CNDD-FDD is the biggest party. Also, I'm unable to find this information from the source specified. Information in the final chapter ("The Court Supreme (Supreme Court) is Burundi's highest court. There are three Courts of Appeals directly below the Supreme Court. Tribunals of First Instance are used as judicial courts in each of Burundi's provinces as well as 123 local tribunals") also seems to be absent from the specified source.

Then I've been baffled by this: "The Nile is a major river in Burundi. Lake Victoria is also an important water source, which serves as a fork to the Kagera River." How exactly is Lake Victoria an important water source, as Burundi doesn't even have any access to it? (And I don't really understand the sentence either.) Then, in economy, "and according to the World Food Programme, 56.8% of children under age five suffer from chronic malnutrition" is wrong, as the source says that "44 percent of children under five suffer chronic malnutrition".

I've obviously corrected these mistakes (?) in the Finnish version. They make me feel a bit unconfortable, as I'm no longer sure if the text I've been translating is accurate–and this is supposed to be a good article. Do the author(s) have any comments on this, are these just individual mishaps, have the sources changed, are they misunderstandings on my part or is the whole article (also those references that aren't online and that I'm unable to check) poorly referenced? Now it also seems that the history-section got inflated, I wonder if this should be reverted? --Olli (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

"Ethnic" origins
The article currently states that:

Archaeological evidence shows that a pygmoid hunter gathering tribe, the Twa, first settled the region in 70,000 B.C.[3] However, approximately 5,000 years ago, the Hutu, a Bantu-speaking people from the mountainous regions of central Africa, immigrated and provided Burundi's first language.[4] The Hutu served as the main farming group in the country.[5] Following the Hutu, the Tutsi tribe settled the region in the late fifteenth century.[6] The Tutsi were descendants of Nilo-Hamitic-speaking people from Ethiopia.[5]

I don't have access to the Eggers or Gates books cited, but this is heavily contested to say the least. Here is an (admittedly pretty imperfect) article on the origins of "Hutu" and "Tutsi". Essentially, there is little evidence to support the theory of Tutsi North East African descent, and it is questionable whether they constitute separate ethnic groups at all, as opposed to social groups. If they do, they are far from hard and fast groupings; it was (is?), for example, possible to become Tutsi during one's lifetime.

Mlleangelique (talk) 23:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever happened, it is certainly not true to say that the Hutu (or whoever arrived in 3000 BC) brought "Burundi's first language". I'm assuming that's a slip of the tongue and not deliberate belittling of the previous inhabitants, but I'll remove it anyhow.--Rallette (talk) 11:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Genocide?
Why isn't there a section and mention of the two incidences of genocide by the Tutsis against the Hutus on this page? There is a separate page called Burundi genocide, but no section? However, there is a section on the Rwanda page of the genocide against the Tutsi people, though there is also a Rwandan Genocide page separately. It just seems there needs to be a section of genocide on the Burundi page as well and a re-direct to the Burundi genocide page.

There is an entire section concerning the Rwandan Genocide on the Rwanda page, but only this one sentence on the Burundi page: After several more years of genocide against the Hutu, a cease-fire was signed in 2003 between the Tutsi-controlled Burundian government and the largest Hutu rebel group, CNDD-FDD (National Council for the Defense of Democracy-Forces for the Defense of Democracy). However, this is in reference to the time between 2001 and the 2003 ceasefire, not the genocidal incidences which occurred in 1972 and 1993. There is no mention of the 1972 or 1993 incidents on this Burundi page, let alone a section and a re-direct to the Burundi genocide page!

Before I add this section and redirects I wanted to discuss this omission here. Supertheman ( talk  ) 07:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Burundi
It is in africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.207.132.241 (talk) 21:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Barrundi fish
Can anyone tell me what is the Barrundi fish simce I could not find it and a friend of mine told me about it

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by AmnonInbar (talk • contribs) 20:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

History
Anything about the history of this area before the 1900s? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.83.140 (talk) 02:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The Nile
The Nile is an important river of Burundi? Really? The citation hardly looks to come from a reliable source. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually the Kagera River is the most remote tributary of the Nile and begins in Burundi. It is the largest tributary of Lake Victoria in which the White Nile begins. But don't take it from me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagera_River - Cashmoney —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.135.33.137 (talk) 16:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Sports section?
Anyone think a sports section should be made? There's a small amount about football in the "culture" section already but it doesn't mention the Burundi national football team or other sports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drawley (talk • contribs) 07:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Population density wrong
This page is at odds with the list of population densities when you click through. Burundi appears at 48th on the list, but is noted as 45th on its own page, and the figures don't match either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.14.42 (talk) 07:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Poverty, instability and strife
The article attributes Burundi's poverty, political instability and internal strife to "civil wars, corruption, poor access to education, and the effects of HIV/AIDS". Is this not largely the legacy of the colonial era? Fconaway (talk) 04:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, excuse me? AIDS is a colonial imposition? And last time I checked many former colonies, including in Africa (see Botswana) are doing pretty well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.195.226 (talk) 20:45, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Burundi Black
Where should the song Burundi Black by Mike Steiphenson be listed on here?--90.217.236.125 (talk) 19:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Not Landlocked
It can't be landlocked if therese a waterborn traport route; Unless you wish to say the lake does not reach an ocean (that it is itself a land locked lake, eventually to die up from salt deposits), the country inherantly can not be land locked. (If this is the case, it really should be clarified in the article to avoid this exact issue.) A J REDDSON — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.175.16.194 (talk) 06:25, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Hutu Numbers Don't Add Up
If the populations of Rwanda and Burundi are both 85 percent Hutu as claimed in the respective articles, then the Hutu population of just these two counties should add up to 17 million or so Hutu, as opposed to the worldwide total of 11 million as given in the Hutu article.

So what gives?

Assessment comment
Substituted at 08:52, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Health Section
I moved this section previously located under Health to Economy.

"Burundi is a landlocked, resource-poor country with an underdeveloped manufacturing sector. The economy is predominantly agricultural; agriculture accounts for just over 30% of GDP and employs more than 90% of the population. Burundi's primary exports are coffee and tea, which account for 90% of foreign exchange earnings, though exports are a relatively small share of GDP. Burundi's export earnings – and its ability to pay for imports – rests primarily on weather conditions and international coffee and tea prices."

Hifear267 (talk) 16:08, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be more information on the 2015/16 crisis? It is relevant and an important issue in Burundi overall.

Also, Isn't the percent of Muslim people in Burundi more than 3%? - Martine N (talk) 03:18, 13 October 2016 Martine N (talk) 19:19, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Religion
Isn't the percent of Muslim people in Burundi more than 3%?

Martine N (talk) 19:22, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

History
Shouldn't there be more information on the 2015/16 crisis? It is relevant and an important issue in Burundi overall.

Martine N (talk) 19:23, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Burundi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090105110647/http://web.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v7/v7i1a5.htm to http://web.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v7/v7i1a5.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041223112500/http://www.iss.co.za/AF/profiles/burundi/Population.html to http://www.iss.co.za/AF/profiles/burundi/Population.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://justice.gov.bi/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 20:52, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Burundi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130501074239/http://justice.gov.bi/IMG/pdf/Decret_100-183_25-06-2012_Mesures_de_grace.pdf to http://justice.gov.bi/IMG/pdf/Decret_100-183_25-06-2012_Mesures_de_grace.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080626223814/http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/sudan/timeline_rwanda.pdf to http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/sudan/timeline_rwanda.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110813050117/https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/world-leaders-b/burundi.html to https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/world-leaders-b/burundi.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080213183252/http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2006/October/20061017183816esnamfuak0.9061396.html to http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2006/October/20061017183816esnamfuak0.9061396.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110813050117/https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/world-leaders-b/burundi.html to https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/world-leaders-b/burundi.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 10:58, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

English as Official Language
I've noticed a lot of reverts with the language section. Just to clarify, English  is  an official language. In addition, I've noticed that some have claimed that the draft law has not come into effect. This is not true. Please do not revert the language edit. If, for whatever reason, you still contest whether English is an official language, please discuss it here. Hesnotblack (talk) 22:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

It also passed in the Senate: [http://www.senat.bi/en/?page_id=669| Loi no 1/ 30  du 3 Novembre  2014  Portant  statut des langues au Burundi. ] Hesnotblack (talk) 19:31, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Made a mistake on the edit summary - said Kiswahilli was official - obviously Kirundi is the sole national language. Hesnotblack (talk) 20:18, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

colony of Belgium?
The main body of the article gives nuances that would not be in the introductory paragraph; but still, is it correct to simply say Burundi was a Belgian colony? I think it is misleading. Perhaps this sentence: "Both Germans and Belgians ruled Burundi and Rwanda as a European colony known as Ruanda-Urundi" could be changed to "Germans ruled Burundi as a colony until it was joined to Rwanda as a Mandate of the League of Nations entrusted to Belgium, which treated it as a colony until independence in 1962." I would also say the whole lede is far too long, with much material that should be moved to the body of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardson mcphillips (talk • contribs) 01:31, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Is Gitega already capital?
The article listed new capital city of Burundi. But only one source is citied for this, and in this source information is only about decision of the government, furthermore in this source we can read: "Parliament, dominated by the ruling party, must still approve the move." So, no source in the article that capital was formally moved to Gitega. Moreover, information is only about de iure procedure. Have government and president moved to Gitega, or still they are in Bujumbura? If the second then Bujumbura is still de facto capital. Aotearoa (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2019 (UTC)