Talk:Buses in Portsmouth

Zip
Very good article. There's just one thing that I thought could perhaps be included: The A3 public transport corridor, supported by the council from Portsmouth to Waterlooville with the zip branded buses. Various infrastructure improvements etc etc, along with the dreaded Real Time System that was eventually turned off as it was so bad! Here are the main pages I found about it: http://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/living/7569.html, http://www3.hants.gov.uk/zip I'm not sure how it would sit in the structure of the article though?

Sadly the Fareham and Gosport BRT scheme is a bit out of scope...  Arriva436 / talk / contribs   19:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, perhaps the University buses could get a couple more lines. I haven't a clue about them, but Editor5807 will.  Arriva436 / talk / contribs   19:15, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Zip could be mentioned under Infrastructure I suppose. I considered including it in the city section, but I only looked at First's website and that makes almost no mention of the public transport corridor. The University buses seem to only be covered on their own site and not in much detail, so I'm not sure how much more this is to say about them. Anything referenced would be welcome! Alzarian16 (talk) 12:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Added Zip to infrastructure. Havant Borough Council provided a nice detailed one-page overview, so it's cited to that instead of the ones you found. The odd thing it that it seems to have received no independent coverage whatsoever, when most similar schemes do. Alzarian16 (talk) 14:32, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I'll try and find the source about the real time being switched off at some point.  Arriva436 / talk / contribs   16:33, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Original research... or not...
Moved from Articles for deletion/List of bus routes in Portsmouth area

Yes, including the entire history of Gosport and Fareham would be wrong, but as of right now they get two sentences - one in the article, one in the lead, both about the creation of Provincial. They aren't mentioned anywhere else. The history of Gosport and Fareham has no bearing on Portsmouth, but the creation of Provincial does since they went on to operate in the city. It would be confusing if Provincial first appeared in the article as a major force in Portsmouth with no explanation as to how that happened.
 * Keep and move to Buses in Portsmouth, another important prose topic that remains redlinked despite the presence of multiple sources. The list itself should form part of that article, with a small amount of the current level of detail removed. If we can get consensus for this I'll do the rewrite myself unless someone else wants to. (Overtaken by events.) Alzarian16 (talk) 15:29, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That is currently on my to-do list. I was planning on remaking this article to contain prose and the list, as soon as I finish revamping Southampton, so I will happily do it. Adam mugliston  Talk  15:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh, turns out there was enough content on this that I decided to write a new article at that title. My !vote now becomes merge, probably to List of bus routes in Hampshire, for basically the same reasons that I gave at Articles for deletion/List of bus routes in Eastleigh & Romsey among others. Alzarian16 (talk) 18:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You're making the same OR flaw as the article in discussion. Gosport and Fareham are separate towns, not part of Portsmouth. Gosport has never had a bus link to Portsmouth, Fareham has as many to Southampton as it does Portsmouth. Provincial, until taken over by Southampton never ran services in Portsmouth. The fact the First centre there southern division on Southampton does not link the histories. Additionally, PCT was a post 1988 company, not pre 1988. From 1936 until then it was city of portsmouth passenger transport department Nuttah (talk) 20:25, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't follow at all? Are you talking about the new Buses in Portsmouth article? If so, can you point out the OR regarding Fareham and Gosport please, as I certianlly can't see any. Gosport only gets mentioned three times, Fareham four, none in a way I would consider to be OR.  Arriva436 / talk / contribs   20:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * 'Other services into the city were operated by Southdown Motor Services and the Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Company' No, Gosport & Fareham Omnibus, Provincial or Hants & Dorset did not operate services in Portsmouth. Not as private concerns, not after 1926 when the city banned all other operators, not after 1948 after Southdown were readmitted and not as National Bus Company when anything east of Fareham centre was Southdown's, including districts of Fareham. They did however, operate many services into Southampton. 'Prior to bus deregulation and the privatisation of National Bus Company in 1986, Gosport & Fareham was merged with the western part of Hants & Dorset to form People's Provincial' Again, this has nothing to do with Portsmouth. People are still conflating First's current operational structure as implying disparate areas have a shared history.Nuttah (talk) 20:47, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right in most respects. (Only a minority, it seems.) For some reason I assumed that Gosport & Fareham served Portsmouth when there was no evidence that they did, and I've now corrected that. The part about the creation of Provincial is relevant since they went on to play a major role in Portsmouth. Where the article says PCT, it refers not to the post-1986 Portsmouth City Transport but the pre-1986 Portsmouth Corporation Transport, which was indeed also known as City of Portsmouth Passenger Transport Department but is referred to by the shorter name in most secondary sources. Alzarian16 (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, almost forgot, do you have any sources to support the historical stuff? According to the sources I used Provincial was never owned by Southampton - it was part of First before Southampton was - and operated into Portsmouth as an independent from 1991, right after the start of Transit Holdings' 100% minibus operation. Southdown were back operating in Portsmouth at least as early as 1946, not 1948, because that's when the joint running agreement was signed. Alzarian16 (talk) 13:10, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Hold on, you're wrong about H&D as well. Route X71 was a joint operation between Hants and Southdown running from Southampton to Portsmouth in the 1970s. Mentioned in industry sources at the time (I can't show you that, obviously) and here (not sure how reliable this is), and was recently part-recreated during a running day that I went to, and that will be repeated next year. I'm starting to wonder just how thoroughly you researched your last comment - that's a minimum of three historical errors, and no sources to support anything else you say. Before accusing others of original research, check that you aren't doing the same, or you risk coming across as an inaccurate hypocrite. Alzarian16 (talk) 16:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * So it wasn't original research, it was factually wrong. I thought it didn't seem like OR.  Arriva436 / talk / contribs   15:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have moved this conversation to Talk:Buses in Portsmouth [this page], so it can continue when this AfD gets closed.  Arriva436 / talk / contribs   16:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * These people have many publications on operations in Gosport and Fareham. This book is about as comprehensive as you'll get on operations in Portsmouth, written by a former general manager of City of Portsmouth Passenger Transport Department. The Mergers and Competition Commission website has a fairly full history as well - including a full name history where Portsmouth Corporation Transport is not mentioned once. Nuttah (talk) 18:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, this lot chose their name for a good reason. Nuttah (talk) 19:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * A bit more proof. Some more Nuttah (talk) 19:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like I was wrong about lack of research, that's pretty impressive. The Eric Watts book sounds like a good source, and one which I didn't know about. Do you have access to it? It would be great if we could use it to expand the pre-1980s history, which is somewhat lacking compared to the more recent history. The Provincial Society stuff presumably has fairly little about Portsmouth, at least not before 1991, so I don't know how much help they would be. The MMC has a lot of history that isn't contained online anywhere else, which is always good. Their history of the pre-1986 company, combined with the other sources you link to, does suggest that the longer name is probably the correct one, which would mean that we should move our article on Portsmouth Corporation Transport to a more suitable title as well as changing it here. I wonder why the PCT name is used in so many locations (,, , and a few book I used to source this article) if it's wrong?
 * Can I take it that the lack of a rebuttal to the Provincial ownership, years of Southdown operation (confirmed by the MMC to be a continuous period) and Hants & Dorset operation during NBC days as a sign that we agree about those, in addition to the Gosport & Fareham issue that we'd already sorted? Alzarian16 (talk) 19:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * 46/48 was a typo. Hants and Dorset, iirc, ran the X70 branch into Gosport - either way it was the Hants and Dorset west division rather than the separate liveried but joint managed Provincial operation. I'm still not convinced by the Gosport and Fareham history - it's a bit like including the complete Times history in the News International article. Those events occurred separately to anything this article covers and have no bearing on Portsmouth. Nuttah (talk) 19:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

More importantly, what are we going to do about the Portsmouth Corporation Transport situation? Renaming it here seems obvious, but should we move that article to Portsmouth Corporation Tramways (since it deals mostly with pre-1936 events), City of Portsmouth Passenger Transport Department (the name used for the longest period) or leave it where it is? Alzarian16 (talk) 10:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Oh, I forgot to mention: News International contains as much pre-takeover history of The Times as this article does of Gosport & Fareham (two lines). Given that this article is much larger and covers a more diverse topic, that doesn't seem at all out of proportion. Alzarian16 (talk) 11:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

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Route numbers and letters
Was it trolleybus routes that had letters post-war and bus routes that were numbered, as stated in the text, or was it the other way round? Or were they combined later? Photos on these pages show trolleybuses on route 3/4 and my father took cine film in the last days of trolleybuses (1963) running the 5/6 and 17/18 services. But they might have been numbered by then to fit the impending switch to diesel buses. Hyperman 42 (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2023 (UTC)