Talk:Bushido/Archive 2

Code of honor
I simply cannot believe this doesn't fall under a Code of Honor WikiProject... TREKphiler 15:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Article Rewrite (December 29, 2009)
This article is completely lacking in (accurate) historical context, so I am rewriting it. I don't feel much need to go into extreme detail as to why this article needs to be rewritten. Criticism of its numerous flaws are enumerated in detail below and in the archive page, and have sat around for ages, but nobody has done anything about it. I rewrote the entire introduction to the article. As for the rest, I tried to keep as much of it as possible (all the lists of sources, etc), but I felt forced to omit numerous sections which were off topic, not relevant, or otherwise useless. I realize that Wikipedia fetishizes length above all other things, but honestly, nothing of worth is being lost here. Most of what was omitted were facile attempts to show how Bushido is a timeless and ahistorical concept and therefore no attempts at providing historical context are necessary. Nick Kapur (talk) 09:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE (December 30, 2009) - My rewrite was completely reverted in less than 24 hours with no attempt made to integrate my new contributions or even read the talk page and consider why I rewrote the article. I will try restoring my edit one time. After that, I wash my hands of this whole business. If Wikipedia is content to have an extremely lenghty, convoluted, and entirely unhelpful article stand as is with no historicization whatsoever, despite countless criticisms of the article on the talk page and talk page archive, than there's not much I can do about it as a single individual. But I'll ask, just one time - if my rewritten article is inadequate, add to it or improve it. Don't just revert to the old one - that one is far, far worse. It's not just about length people, it has to be about quality in the end. Nick Kapur (talk) 09:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "I don't feel much need to go into extreme detail as to why this article needs to be rewritten." Well, you should. An editor with less than 50 edits over the course of four years should be much less ham-handed especially when there are numerous objections to your clunky edits. Please, wash your hands as you say, and be constructive. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 10:24, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Format edits, minor wording changes

 * Removed some self-important verbage used in quoting some of the sources ("a lifetime of research").
 * Added an "origins" section, and re-structured the information to not give the appearance that Wikipedia editors are having a public battle about how far back in history the term "bushido" can be traced. The evidence is presented, and a disclaimer is added at the bottom of the section, keeping the sources intact.
 * Fleshed out the "Wilson, 1982" reference, by researching an edition on Google scholar.
 * Added a source for the Nitobe Inazō quotes.
 * Found 2 additional pictures on Wikimedia commons to use in the article.
 * Removed the "all caps" table with excessive space.
 * Removed some excess verbage in the "see also" section, to create a 2 column table.
 * Added "main article" links to Bushido literature and Virtue. --  O liver  T wisted (Talk) (Stuff) 03:54, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Ucucha 18:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Bushidō → Bushido —

Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH - the English form of this word is Bushido, without the macron.

76.66.197.17 (talk) 07:07, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment: Britannica has it with the macro; the Columbia Encyclopedia doesn't. Both sources use diacritics in some cases but not others (cf. "Mexico" in Britannica and "Bogotá" in Columbia), and so are useful for adjudicating the matter at hand.  Sources linked to in the references section, as far as I can tell, either strip diacritics indiscriminately or keep them for all Japanese words, and so are of no help.--Atemperman (talk) 19:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Except that this word is commonly used in fiction, where it is almost invariably written without a macron, such as in WWII fiction. A google book search shows the predominance of the macronless form. 76.66.197.17 (talk) 21:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: You should also move the archive of this page.--Oneiros (talk) 01:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: Merriam-Webster and both the Random House and American Heritage dictionaries  have the term coming from the Japanese "bushidō" with the macron. armagebedar (talk) 05:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the entry in both M-W and AH is for the macronless spelling. Both dictionaries also have "Bogotá" rather than "Bogota", so it seems that so far for sources that recognize the use of diacritics in English in some cases but not others, it's 3-to-1 in favor of "bushido". --Atemperman (talk) 20:48, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Support - this word has been "absorbed" into English usage, and most frequently appears without the macron. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 22:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Minor Add
Added link in the See More section. I added Scout Law as it contains many common themes, not a lot really, but some. it gives another culture's perspective to the aricle and is a small link. Thought it might be good to have. Take it out as you wish. Thanks for the article! I really enjoyed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.91.172.42 (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Scout Law has nothing to do with Bushido. I've reverted your addition. Mark Shaw (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Missing Talk section
It seems that when this Talk page was last archived, a several-page chunk of it was inadvertedly deleted. Would someone be able to recover it and properly archive it? Cool. --DrHacky (talk) 16:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Historicize Bushido
This article is improving gradually, but is still a pretty painful read. We have to remember that ¨Bushido¨ is essentially a modern term. Tokugawa period or medieval warriors simply did not conceive of themselves as following something called ¨Bushido.¨ Yes there are instances of this term in the literature, but they are a conspicuous minority.

Really, this would benefit most by being renamed ¨samurai ethics" or something. The article talks about EVERY reference to warrior ideals or codes of conduct as ¨bushido literature¨ or ¨reference to bushido ideals¨"-- this implies that Japanese warriors had ONE ideal that remained unchanged throughout 1500 years of history. Warriors changed over time as did their ideals. If you want to talk about Bushido, you have to talk about it historically, not as something that has always existed as part of the Japanese genetic makeup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.227.52 (talk) 11:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Piecemeal editing can't save this abomination of an article. However I removed a statement that was patently untrue. Something to the effect of "bushido was widely practiced and didn't vary." Since nothing called "bushido" existed in the Edo period, it's impossible that it was widely practiced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.194.201.74 (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree this article is weak and misleading in establishing the historical context of the evolution of Samurai culture and ethics, and would like to add two points for consideration.

Virtually no mention is made of the influance of Sun Wu (孙武) and his classic 孫子兵法 (commonly know as "The Art of War" in English). That this work significantly influanced Samurai culture is well established and failing to mention it is a major difficency. As close as we come is the passing mention of "Taoist" influance, but how, I must ask, did Samurai recieve this? From 孫子兵法.

Second, I must amplify the point made above that Bushido was a late 19th century work written to distill the essence of Samurai culture and ethics for (then) contemporary readers; there was no single source of a Samurai code before then and suggesting so is misleading. The content of this article appears to walk backward from there to create a frame for the picture. Certianly Samurai culture was the product of Japan, but it is not as esentially uniquely Japanese as the article states, and anyone with at least a general knowledge of Japanese history of the period must be aware of the great influance Chinese culture had on Japan and certianly this applies to Samurai culture as well.

One might question if this article was intended to be a Japanese secondary school textbook - the historical accuracy and perspective meets the requirements of the form.

Politely suggest to mention Sun Wu. Samurai such as Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu were his readers and followers.

Suggested citation if needed:

McNeilly, Mark R. (2001), Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0195133404 ; pp. 6–7.

Xiao-zi (talk) 16:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * By all means, be bold and make the changes, as long as you have decent sources! Nuujinn 00:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

SPANISH Legion
The article don´t say taht the spanish legion was founded by Millán Astray and their "Credo" was based in the Samurai's Bushido —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.42.148.27 (talk) 15:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Broken link
reference 25 "excerpt from Samurai: The World of the Warrior by Stephen Turnbull" links to a junk site — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qube0 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Alexandre Pernikoff
There appears to be no WikiPedia article on the book "Bushido" written by Alexandre Pernikoff (1943, Liveright Publishing Company, New York, NY, USA). Desertphile (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Etymology
I removed the etymology added by a user Parkmcgraw last September. The edit only explained how the Chinese words 武, 士 and 道 were respectively derived from in China without any relation to the bushido. All the sources appended describe nothing about the bushido. Furthermore an irrelevant word 周髀 (Gnomon) is written as if it has anything to do with the bushido. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

"Charity" Principle
It seems to me that the best english translation to 仁　would be to Benevolence, and not charity, which is very different concept, but I am not an expert. Then it should point to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.219.15.167 (talk) 03:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Translations
Can someone please check the translations of the virtues? "Chugi" apparently has a very different meaning than what is listed, for example. 86.136.74.161 (talk) 19:41, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

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The fiction that is bushidō
It's remarkable how totally uncritical this article is of the near complete fiction that is the concept of "bushidō". This article should be rewritten from scratch, taking into account sources such as the following:


 * Benesch, Oleg (2011) "Bushido: the creation of a martial ethic in late Meiji Japan"
 * Benesch, Oleg (2014) Inventing the Way of the Samurai Nationalism, Internationalism, and Bushidō in Modern Japan
 * Hurst, G. Cameron III (1990) "Death, Honor, and Loyalty: The Bushido Ideal"

Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:29, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. This is a shit piece full of unreferenced and outright personal opinion.

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Yagyu Jubei
is not only part of fiction but of history.--PadmaPhala (talk) 04:30, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

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What the hell?: " Prisoners of war denied being mistreated and declared that they were being well-treated by virtue of bushidō generosity" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.171.128.174 (talk) 14:58, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

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Update
I have added some info, particularly in the Historical Development section. I have also provided sources to some statements that are labeled lacking citations. In my research, I found sources tracing the warrior code as early as the Kamakura period. Perhaps people who have more knowledge of this aspect could help clarify. Darwin Naz (talk) 11:23, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Japanese war crime white washing
I don't see how the following sentence belongs in this article.

"Prisoners of war denied being mistreated and declared that they were being well-treated by virtue of bushidō generosity.[27] Broadcast interviews with prisoners were also described as being not propaganda but out of sympathy with the enemy, such sympathy as only bushidō could inspire.[28]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.96.91.147 (talk) 10:35, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

comment It doesn't. The previous version started the sentence off by "Denials of mistreatment of prisoners of war" which meant that Japanese war crime deniers declared that bushido code meant that Japanese prisoners were treated well. This post-edit sentence completely changes the meaning to prisoners themselves saying that they were treated well. The reference for that sentence says nothing of the sort. The sentence should start off with "Deniers of the mistreatment of prisoners of war" but my revision has been reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heftystoragesolutions (talk • contribs) 16:19, 22 January 2019 (UTC)