Talk:Butoh

Initial comments
Removed this paragraph from List of dances in order to make that a simple alphabetical list of dances. This text directly lifted from the other article and is the basis for this new article. The part of the text which is a list of dances remains in List of dances. The accompanying text has been removed. :Sfdan 06:05, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This is a clean introduction, but there isn't any-thing here about the more recent and current status of butoh. A mention of butoh in the U.S. and Germany is needed. I'll try to add at least some links. We don't list a Japanese link. I can't read Japanese, but when I entered butoh, I got this page, http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%BA%BF%E8%B5%A4%E5%85%90, which might or might not be a Butoh entry. Kdammers 2 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)

OK, possible outline for stuff to include in the article: influence of Ausdrucktanz on dance in Japan from the 1920`s onwards. Origin of "Ankoku Butoh"-meaning of the kanji for butoh (not just that it means "stomping dance.") How was the name Ankoku Butoh created. Different performers and groups in Butoh and their influence: Dairakudakan, Sankaijuku, Akira Kasai, Kazio Ohno, Iwana Masaki, Min Tanaka etc... Description of (diverse)butoh techniques: use of imagery, (how it compares with phantomime), philosophy, like Kazuo Ohnos motivation for dancing (dead spirits, La Argentina)

I think there is a wide range of ideas and techniques, it might be impossible to describe them all. So perhaps its worth finding similarities between them all. ONe thing I notice is the idea of using something outside the performer to move him/herself. For exmple "you`re a piece of cloth, moved by the wind" or "when you walk, a person special to you is standing behind you." Its a tough topic I find, and I would like to initiate a dialogue with someone about this stuff when possible.Eggnogg 18:08 04 October.

Did some spelling and grammar cleaning in the "Teachers who have spent time with..." paragraph. Also did one content edit: removed the first person editorializing ["I'm going out on a limb here..."]. In the hands of a New Journalist like Thompson, Capote or Wolfe, the first person can be useful. Here it's a Very Bad Idea (tm) which would erode the reader's confidence in the author's ability to be authoritative.


 * I'm not fond of the current structure. It rambles and is largely anecdotal. I'm a Butoh dancer. I've been taught by the Tamanos, by Katsura Kan and some western folks who have studied in Japan and were members of Ink Boat. My history at this point is pretty limited. I'll try to bone up on it before I get all posty here.

I think the info for Ohno and Hijikata should be folded back into the main article as they more pertain to the development and practice of Butoh. The pages for the two originators should contain biographical information and what not. The history section is what I'm most concerned about. It's overly focused on Hijikata, lacks chronology and as I said, is largely anecdotal. The discussion about the first Butoh performance is interesting and relevant but only so far as Butoh is contextualized historically with in Japanese dance. We need to clarify why and how Hijikata and Ohno began to develop Butoh and how that lead up to Kinjinki into Ankoku Buyo and into Ankoku Butoh. Once that has been established I think Kinjinki is important enough to warrant its own section. Perhaps not. I'm not familiar enough with the subject to put the content but that is what I think is lacking. It was what I went looking for when I went to the article. I assume others will want this information as well. I took the liberty to strip out some of what I thought was popular culture stuff out of the history stuff. sugarcoma 11:56pm, Dec 1st 2008 (EST)

Considering folding in the following:

'''Hijikata was dissatisfied with the Japanese modern dance scene, feeling that it was merely a copy of the work being done in the West. He wanted to find a form of expression that was purely Japanese, and one that allowed the body to "speak" for itself, thru unconscious improvised movement. His first experiments were called Ankoku Butoh, or the Dance of Darkness. This darkness referred to the area of what was unknown to man, either within himself or in his surroundings. His butoh sought to tap the long dormant genetic forces that lay hidden in the shrinking consciousness of modern man.''

''His first public performances were wild, primal and sexually explicit. They quite naturally shocked the conservative Japanese dance community, and he was banned from appearing at future organized events. This was the spark that gave birth to butoh. Many of Japan's dancers, poets, visual artists and theatre performers rallied around this exciting and dangerous new art form. Underground performances became increasingly popular, and soon there were numerous groups being formed in the Tokyo area. Musicians, photographers and writers including Japan's leading novelist, Yukio Mishima joined Hijikata to collaborate on spectacular underground performances.''

''Butoh loosely translated means stomp dance, or earth dance. Hijikata believed that by distorting the body, and by moving slowly on bent legs he could get away from the traditional idea of the beautiful body, and return to a more organic natural beauty. The beauty of an old woman bent against a sharp wind, as she struggles home with a basket of rice on her back. Or the beauty of a lone child splashing about in a mud puddle - this was the natural movement Hijikata wanted to explore. Hijikata grew up in the harsh climate of Northern Japan in an area known as Tohoku. The grown-ups he watched worked long hours in the rice fields, and as a result, their bodies were often bent and twisted from the ravages of the physical labor. These were the bodies that resonated with Hijikata. Not the "perfect" upright bodies of western dance, or the consciously controlled movements of Noh and Kabuki. He sought a truthful, ritualistic and primal earthdance. One that allowed the performer to make discoveries as she/he created/was created by the dance.''

I got this from Don McLeon's Butoh page who I am e-mailing for permission and citations. sugarcoma 2:15pm, Dec 2st 2008 (EST)

Origins of Butoh
I read somewhere that Butoh emerged as a reaction to the horror experienced by the Japanese at the Atomic Bomb in 1945. Hence the imagery associated with death, decay, ghosts and subsequent iconoclasm as a reaction to fear.. But I can't remember where I read it and I doubt if I'd be allowed to paraphrase something someone else published. -- Jasna 11:13pm, Jan 16th 2005. (EST)

Many dance critics prefer connecting Butoh with the Atomic bomb, but as far as I have studied Hijikata's books, there were no descriptions found about the atomic bombs. His writings show, I believe, that he was not a political person but a dominating dancer and artist talented also in writing. There is only one thing that shows a relationship of Butoh and atomic bombs: A movie titled "Atomic bomb and navel" directed by a Japanese photographer Eiko Hosoe who published "Kamaitachi" photographic album of Hijikata. But, the content of the movie is very funny although the bomb exploded at the last scene. In the World War II, Tokyo was bombed out in an air-raid by three hundreds twenty five B29-bombers, and about 100,000 people were burned to death one night. It well matches the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Akiko Motofuji, Hijikata's wife who died in 2003, told me what happened in Tokyo at the night, but she did not mention to the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is not the Atomic bomb for Japanese citizens, but they are (atomic) bombs. When dance critics use the phrase "the Atomic bomb" describing something about Butoh, it is, I believe, surely an easy rhetorical expression that is nothing to do with Butoh itself. Butoh came from the hardship and poverty that Hijikata and the people of the rustic northeast prefectures had suffered historically. See ganimata or bandy-leg, and crooked back. (T.K.,Sapporo)
 * Butoh has nothing to do with Hiroshima, that's an American press thing. Many newspaper stories on Butoh are themselves Butoh, and are to be taken as such.  See the "Defining Butoh" section for an example from 1989.  I added some stuff to The Rite of Spring related to bandy legged crookedness and Njinsky. EricDiesel (talk) 01:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

wik link unreadable
The fourth Wik in another language comes up as three squares on my screen. When I click on it, I get a page of squares. I assume the link is to Japanese, but could some-one change this to a more universally viewable link, please. Deutsch Français עברית 日本語 Русский

External links section
Today I deleted all of the external links. I went through every one, and found most to be simply links to butoh company/dancer sites. Wikipedia is not for self-promotion. Please read WP:EL if you have not already: one key admonition is that external links should be kept to a minimum. Including a link to every butoh company's site would go against this (consider if there were links to every guitarist or ballet company's website). A number of other links were dead, or indicated that they had not been updated in several years, and/or had minimal useful content. Also, keep this in mind from WP:EL: "If the website or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source for the article, and citing it." Doctormatt 19:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ideally, would be a great link to have, but it says itself that it hasn't been updated in years, so it really isn't good. Can anyone suggest a replacement, a site that has lots of links to other butoh sites? Such a site could be a great anchor for a solid external links section. Doctormatt 07:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I started going through the links You cut. I don't follow Your reasoning. The first one is to a Wik site; McLeod is a history of Butoh; then there is one with lots of links to other butoh sites - just what You say You are looking for. Other links are to sites with good pics. I don't want to get into an editing war, so I'm not re-adding any, but I wish You'd re-consider. Kdammers 19:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent - someone is discussing this article with me! Thanks. So, my reasoning is like this: links to butoh companies and artists are generally inappropriate: we would not have links to every ballet company at ballet, for instance.  I don't know which one you mean has lots of links, but if you mean butoh.net it is clearly years out of date, so I don't think it should be included.  What would be awesome is for those who wish to add links to their own company sites to contribute images and information to the article.  To quote myself, and WP:EL again: "If the website or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source for the article, and citing it." The McLeod link contains information that could be added here: note, from WP:EL, links normally to be avoided include "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article."  I think it is much more important that this article gets some references rather than more external links: this seems to be the philosophy suggested by WP:EL. For instance, we could add information from the McLeod article and have a link to the site in a reference.  That would be great. Cheers, Doctormatt 20:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I inserted SU-EN Butoh company as a link in response to what I felt was a lack of info about 'international' practitioners of butoh. In the 'international' section, only North American companies are mentioned. The three butoh companies/practioners mentioned do not adequately represent the range of butoh as it is presently practiced outside of Japan. I put in a European company in an attempt to help amend that situation. (Maybe it wasn't the best way of accomplishing the task, but I'm new at this game) At present, it might even be good to eliminate all but the opening sentence in the 'international' section, as the section is simply too brief to state anything substantial.

Furthermore, I agree with Kdammers. The butoh.net link is worth keeping. From my experience, butoh dancers are not that concerned about up-to-date links, being a bit adverse to technologies that intrude upon the experience of the dancer's body. At present, I think the butoh.net link is the best thing the world of butoh can offer, at least in English. Anyways, butoh is pretty obscure. It's not going to have a plethora of online histories or functioning companies. 00000K00000 14:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for you comments. Yes, it seems like butoh.net is as good as we've got for now: I'll put that back in, and take a look at the "international" section.  Cheers, Doctormatt 18:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a link to Diego Pinon as he represents some pretty specific and international Butoh types. I also added Mizu's dance theater in Portland, Oregon as it seemed consistent with Cave and Vangeline. Feel free to remove if needed. SugarComa 11:56pm, Dec 1st 2008 (EST)

I would like to offer the following external link in case others feel it would benefit the article. I cannot add it myself since it is a site that I maintain. The page is a YouTube playlist which includes video of numerous butoh and butoh-related performances by a variety of different dancers. Most of the performances were recorded in Seattle from about 2006 - present. http://www.youtube.com/user/celadonmusic#grid/user/632FAF7ED04681EB I recorded and posted all of the video (with the permission of the performers) so there are no copyright violations to be concerned about. thanks Ericmaia (talk) 01:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

"Handicapped" Butoh
The following comment was on the Hijikata talk page. I am moving it here because it leads to other stuff-
 * Some may find it of interest that, in the late 1960s, japanese horror/exploitation director Teruo Ishii hired Hijikata to create the role of a Moreau-like hermited mad scientist in the film "Horrors of Malformed Men," a role that is mostly performed as dance. The film has remained largely unseen in Japan for forty years because it was viewed as insensitive to the handicapped. see: http://www.midnighteye.com/reviews/horrmalf.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bustter (talk • contribs) 12:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tatsumi_Hijikata" 
 * At the Hijikata 80th birthday party in SF in summer of 2008, one of the most applauded dancers was a parapalegic in a wheelchair. EricDiesel (talk) 01:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In Moshe Efrati's dance company, half the dancers are deaf. EricDiesel (talk) 01:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Christina is a dead link. Anyone know how to get to her talk page?  Is this the Christina at the Hijikata 80th BD party? EricDiesel (talk) 01:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Tamano Students
I read a dance magazine in the early 90's that said Hiroko Tamano was among the living dancers with the most students, or students students. Does anyone know the citation? EricDiesel (talk) 02:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I made a film with Michael Blackwood in 1990 BUTOH: BODY ON THE EDGE OF CRISIS. it would be a good link in this article. I also wrote for dance magazine about butoh and I think you are referring to an article I wrote about the butoh festival in Japan in 1989, or so. contact me: bonnie@gohproductions.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.251.152 (talk) 15:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Tamano
Personally, I'd remove the Tamano section or clarify why he is important to Butoh. If we are going to include Tamano we should include other 2nd generation dancers and teachers as well. I suggest a list of notables with links to stub pages about them. sugarcoma 11:56pm, Dec 1st 2008 (EST)

status in Japan
"Accepted as a performance art overseas, it remains fairly unknown in Japan" has been on this site for some time, yet the requested citation hasn't come. Can some-one who knows Japanese or the Japanese arts scene verify or delete this, please. Kdammers (talk) 04:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No one has responded. I just checked the site that lists "all" butoh groups around the world.  It has more groups (22) listed for Japan than for any other country.  Isn't it time we remove this unsupported statement?Kdammers (talk) 08:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Japanese majority have no interest in "butoh" and consider it a disgrace, but minor nuisance, if they admit to knowing about it at all. Only illiterate foreigners would fall for this crap as they are the main audience for this amateurish expression with the big name of "butoh" like its some kind of mysterious ancient rite. This article should be about one paragraph long.  That's all "butoh" deserves.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.228.46.2 (talk) 05:03, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Introduction to America
"A PBS documentary of a butoh performance in a cave with no audience further broadened knowledge in America." This is unsourced and vague. What documentary? When was it shown? Winter Maiden (talk) 15:48, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Source check

 * "Butoh frequently occurs in areas of extremes of the human condition, such as skid rows, or extreme physical environments, such as a cave with no audience, remote Japanese cemetery, or hanging by ropes from a skyscraper in front of the Washington Monument."

Could someone who has or has access to this book check this quote? The reason I ask is that the last part of the sentence is somewhat bizarre and, more importantly, technically impossible. There is not and has never been any "skyscraper in front of the Washington Monument" from which to hang. The National Mall (on which the Monument sits) has no skyscrapers on or near it, and in fact, under limits imposed by by Acts of Congress, no building taller than the Monument exists within the District (certainly none that meet the definition of skyscraper).  General Ization  Talk   03:27, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified
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