Talk:Butte, Alaska/Archive 1

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This latest edit war
, another brilliant move by rabid deletionist, invokes WP:NOT. Did you skip over the part of WP:NOT known as WP:INDISCRIMINATE? After that edit, there's hardly any useful content left aside from the same ancient census data, which you can't exactly call useful 15+ years later, never mind the fact that it's not in harmony with the info found in the infobox and lead. Too many of these type of articles have been pushed exactly in this direction as of late, with a variety of lame excuses offered as to why. What makes a passing reference to the local school containing zero details and zero sources valid but not any of the other information? Are we getting ready for Wikipedia 15 by dumbing down content and smugly assuming that readers will accept anything we offer them as valid? Perhaps we're tearing down these articles in the hopes of conning people into believing it's 2001 all over again by only offering them information which might have been useful in 2001 but certainly isn't useful today? Or is perhaps the constant reversions of good-faith contributions I see on my watchlist an indication of "I don't know or care, so why should anyone else know or care"?

I dunno. However, I do know that there are five things I expect to see mentioned in a CREDIBLE article about the Butte. Those would be Bodenburg Butte itself, Lee McKinley, Alaska Raceway Park, Jim Creek and Del Roi's Bar. Yes, the school and fire station are also prominent features of the community, but those appear to be held to a different standard for reasons which remain unexplained. There's also an LDS Church-operated welfare farm benefiting their faithful, but I have no idea if it still operates, as the Matanuska River has been busy eroding adjacent lands for the better part of the past two decades. There's also access to hiking trails leading towards the Chugach Mountains, though I believe most of that access may actually be on the Lazy Mountain side. We're here strictly for the benefit of readers, correct? That's what certain editors have been busy shoving down everyone else's throats. How does that which I mention not benefit readers while 15-year-old census data does? I'm not seeing it and I doubt anyone else would, either. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 11:25, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand why none of my edits ate acceptable? I am starting facts about this town, with references, which ate important to the people in the town and the surrounding area. Hiking to the top of the Butte is an activity that draws thousands of people each year to this tiny town. Yet you remove any mention of this feature which dominates every view in the town. The town surrounds this butte, but no mention of it in the article? How does that serve anyone who is looking up information on the town? Northwind Homestead (talk) 00:21, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

The LDS owned farm still operates. It sells produce as a public U-pick farm, however my mention of this was deemed "not to be unique" Northwind Homestead (talk) 00:39, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I was the one who initially removed it, per WP:NOTDIRECTORY. The section on the economy seemed to be trying to list every single business in the area, rather than provide a general overview. Without independent reliable sources this is basically a matter of opinion, I felt the section needed trimming and that's what I decided to trim. I'm open to the possibility that the section could be arranged differently, but we should avoid having a bloated, confusing list of every business around. Perhaps it would be better integrated into the content above it regarding agriculture? Beeblebrox (talk) 01:53, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm new to this so help me out here. Why is all the context of an edit deleted and reverted back instead of editing the information to properly fit the format? Northwind Homestead (talk) 22:08, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I would say that's an editorial choice, and the person making the edit is the only one who can explain why they made that choice. I would also say that the person who has been repeatedly reverting you has yet to comment here, (that would be ) and maybe now that the article is protected from editing they will find there way here and state their case. Edit warring is never the right way to resolve a dispute, and just so everyone is aware, it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong about the underlying editorial dispute, if this waring picks back up again when the protection expires, the next move is blocking anyone who edit wars. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:11, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * How do you propose I start a contructive dialogue with NH,, when an uninvolved editor jumped in here after the first revert and styled my actions as edit warring? Your the adminstrator here....how about you explain the basis of BRD to the new guy and help get a dialogue going here? Please explain how far off the reservation the OP in this thread was? It's hard to sit down over tea with someone when a third party covered the table with shit prior to my arrival. John from Idegon (talk) 05:21, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Ok, there are a few things that bring people to our town. 1. hiking the Butte 2. Reindeer Farm tours. 3. Riding and playing at Jim Creek (KRPUA) 4. The racetrack. 5. Pyrah's U-pick farm. While these might not be a glorious as some of the shit mentioned in big city articles they are important to us and make our town unique in its own way. Any article without mentioning at a minimum these things would do a disservice to the reader seeking information about our town. Jogn, why don't you help me make my content fit the mold instead of instantly deleting it all. I must say that it is so very frustrating. I fully intend to keep working at getting this article up to speed so please work with me not against me. Northwind Homestead (talk) 09:08, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Reindeer Farm
First off, I read the BRD section. I'm learning. Second, holy shit snacks there are a lot of abbreviations used here.

Now, on to the meat of this.

The Reindeer Farm deserves a mention in this article because of its defining role in Butte. Hell, the Reindeer Farm needs it's own article to highlight all of the cool shit they do in the state. Like the "running of the reindeer" at the Fur Rondy festival. I'll work on that article later though. There are many articles in print media as well as online that highlight activities at the Reindeer Farm. Just because they are a commercial entity they don't get a nod? Amazon, Microsoft, and Starbucks all get a nod in the Seattle article, how are they any different? The Seahawks are a commercial enterprise, they get their own section. So, how can I improve beyond the plain simple facts stated in this exerpt?

●Located on the southern flank of the Bodenburg Butte is the Williams Reindeer Farm. The farm has 150 reindeer, 30 Rocky Mountain Elk, 20 horses, 1 bison, and various other farm animals. They do daily tours during the summer season on the farm, trail rides on horseback up the Butte, and host themed festivals throughout the year. The operations on The Reindeer farm were featured in an episode of Discovery's Dirty Jobs with MIke Rowe. Northwind Homestead (talk) 09:33, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The purpose of an encyclopedia article is not to convey the information the subject of the article wants to convey. The purpose of an encyclopedia article is to summarize what has already been written about a given subject. So what is needed is for you to find sources that are independent of the things you wish to include that are reliable. In case you don't care to read the link supplied, reliable means that there is some process and or reputation of fact checking. Generally, reliable sources are newspapers (and their websites), magazines (their websites, too), radio & TV news (again, their websites also), mainstream published books (not vanity press or self published), and trusted academic journals.
 * Further, anything included must be phrased neutrally and not promotionally. For the reindeer farm, listing an inventory of the critters there seems quite promotional to me.
 * I also don't see the listing of all the businesses in town. Its not like this community is miles out in the tules. It's in metro Anchorage. It has a grocery store. Wow.
 * At least 35% of communities in the US have virtually nothing worth saying about them. It's not like it's some sort of stigma. Before you should put it in the encyclopedia, it needs to matter to someone who has never heard of your community. The racetrack apparently does, as it has an article on Wikipedia (which should be Wikilinked).  If you can find a newspaper or magazine discussing the produce operation (if the LDS run it, look in their publications, as a hint) or the reindeer attraction, by all means pull info from the source and rephrase it neutrally for inclusion. Another hint would be to divorce yourself from what you already know and just base your edits on the sources. Write dispassionately. If you feel that something needs to be in here, you are going to try to wedge it in. If you base what you put in strictly on what you can find sources for, you will not have that problem. Hope that helps. John from Idegon (talk) 09:53, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I wrote the above prior to your last edit. I hinted at this above, but straight out....the reindeer farm doesn't deserve to be in the article because of Its "defining" to.e in the town. But it does deserve to be in. Why? It was featured on a major television show. Somethings importance to the town is irrelevant. But if a television production was made about it, that shows the world has noticed it. That is why something would go in the article. Now we are getting somewhere...John from Idegon (talk) 09:59, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Cool thanks.

We don't have a grovery store. I should post a pic of what we have, it's smaller than my garage. Northwind Homestead (talk) 10:01, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Got no objection to Williams Reindeer Farm being mentioned. Here is a link to the dirty jobs episode. I do still object to details about it per NOTGUIDEBOOK. Contrary to the opinion of the OP way up at the top, that is just not what this is about. The article is about the community, not the reindeer farm. Here is the citation ready to put in the article:

Since only admins can edit the article as of now, please write your copy out here with the reference, remembering my hint above about working strictly from the source, and keeping in mind the NOT policy I linked. Once you've done that, we can make an edit request. John from Idegon (talk) 10:19, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Gah....we can make an edit request tomorrow. I gotta hit the hay. John from Idegon (talk) 10:26, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Here is a nice articke from the Washington Post. Though it doesn't mention many facts, it's more of an experiential piece. https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/joining-in-reindeer-games-on-a-farm-in-palmer-alaska/2013/12/05/e7164b0e-5bae-11e3-bf7e-f567ee61ae21_story.html Northwind Homestead (talk) 10:27, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Located on the southern flank of the Bodenburg Butte is the Williams Reindeer Farm ref> which has been operating since 1987. The Reindeer Farm is featured in an episode of Discovery's Dirty Jobs. Northwind Homestead (talk) 10:45, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong link in that one. Here is the correct one. Located on the southern flank of the Bodenburg Butte is the Williams Reindeer Farm which had been operating since 1987. The Reindeer farm is featured in an episode of Discovery's Dirty Jobs.

John, thanks for helping me out. It works so well when we use the proper method. Sleep well, you lucky dog. I'm bouncing around the Gulf of Alaska on a tug boat, no good sleep tonight. Northwind Homestead (talk) 10:50, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Here is the edit I would like to ads to the recreation section of this article. Located on the southern flank of the Bodenburg Butte is the Williams Reindeer Farm which has been operating since 1987. The Reindeer farm is featured in an episode of Discovery's Dirty Jobs.

Any objections? Northwind Homestead (talk) 06:49, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable to me. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:19, 24 January 2016 (UTC)


 * No problem. Sorry I've been gone. Too much real life. Happy editing. John from Idegon (talk) 07:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

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