Talk:Butterfly (TV series)

Max/Maxine
How does the style guide for names apply to fictional characters? The plot summary of the first episode here introduces a character called Maxine and has the episode end with her wanting to be known from now on as... Maxine. User:Bilorv reverted my edit that opened with Max with an example of how we would naturally say "when Muhammed Ali was born", but an article like Ali (film) literally opens its plot summary using the name of Cassius Clay and switches the name when it happens in the story.

Note that I haven't seen the Butterfly series. If the character is calling herself Maxine all through the episode and it's only her parents who start using the name, the article should be clearer about this. --Lord Belbury (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for opening the discussion. To clear everything up: throughout the first episode, the protagonist is known as "Max" and described using male pronouns. At the end of the first episode, another character announces that the protagonist wants to be called "Maxine" and use female pronouns (which we see throughout the rest of the series that she consistently does). Some relatives of the character continue using "Max"/"he" in later episodes but the character is predominantly described by "Maxine"/"she". As the character is female (essentially the whole point of the series) and described as such throughout most of the programme, it's definitely not right to call her by "Max" in the lead paragraph, as your edit did.
 * However, I understand that it's a little bit confusing to describe the character as "Maxine" in the first episode, when she is known as Max and described using male pronouns. The character has a clear female gender identity throughout the episode (though it's expressed through the language of a child e.g. "I don't want to be a boy" or "I feel like a girl") but they are only known as Max and other people use "he/him". My solution was to add the clause the latter of whom is currently known as Max and referred to by the characters with pronouns he and him, which we could reword or expand upon. The issue I see with using "Max" is that it has clear male gender connotations and it's also clear in the series that the character is always female, even before a diagnosis or other characters describing her as such. Another option would be rewriting to avoid use of name and/or pronouns altogether but this seems near impossible (or would produce a very clunkily written result) for the first episode summary, which is primarily about this character's experiences.
 * If this was a real person then MOS:GENDERID would apply and we'd either have to [refer] to [the person] by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification (on a biographical article) or use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis. As a fictional character, this is an edge case, but I previously erred on the side of caution: it's considered very impolite to refer to a real person by their deadname and most style guides warn against it, so by the same logic we should avoid using Maxine's deadname (that is, avoiding use but not mention of "Max"). — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 21:49, 3 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Fair points, I think it's just an issue of clarity in the writing. The first episode plot summary is currently "here's Maxine, here are some things that happen to her, and now she wants to be known as Maxine". This is potentially a bad summary of the plot if it's misrepresenting how the story is told and how characters are presented to the audience, in the same way that a mystery story plot summary wouldn't (I think) open by revealing the name of a character whose identity is concealed from the audience until the third act.
 * Is this a story about a girl who has always called herself "Maxine" and privately thought of herself as female finally finding the strength to tell people, or is this about a girl unsure of her identity gradually finding it during the course of the first episode and then publicly adopting a new name? Either way, I'm sure this can be written respectfully. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:24, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response and I completely get where you're coming from. I think it's more the second one—someone who knows they're a girl and wears female clothing in private at home, but doesn't have the words to express themselves until the end of the first episode, where they find a new name for themselves ("Maxine") and ask others to use female pronouns for them. To be honest, I think whatever option we choose has an issue with either describing the character accurately or coherence of the plot summary. I can see how it makes sense to use "Max" throughout the first episode summary, and then perhaps it's possible to rewrite it to avoid using pronouns of any sort to dodge that question. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 11:57, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Female pronouns seem fine after being explained at the start of the episode synopsis, I just think it needs a pass to clarify the actual plot structure as it develops, without the reveal-to-reader at the end that the character has not actually been being referred to as "Maxine" by anyone until this point. A line like "Vicky and Stephen explain that Maxine has wished to wear girl's clothing" sounds like they're using that name in their explanation, and it'd be clearer to say "Max" (in quote marks) if that's what's in the script. Perhaps that's the only misleading line, reading it through. --Lord Belbury (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that makes sense. What you're saying about not using "Maxine" in the description until it's used at that point in the programme does make sense. I've changed "Maxine" to "Max" throughout the first episode summary, and added a new bit in the first sentence about how she wants to be treated as a girl, but currently isn't. If that bit is unclear, feel free to reword it or suggest new wording. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 22:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * All looks good. I've taken out the scare quotes on the final "Max" in episode one, since the name has been used without quotes in the rest of it. Thanks for talking it through. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:06, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No problem, and thanks for the responses! — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 09:04, 6 June 2019 (UTC)