Talk:Bwlch y Groes

Is this the highest mountain pass in Wales as stated as the page for the Gospel_Pass states it passes a height of 549m, 4m higher than that stated in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.33.6.162 (talk) 11:15, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * No, the wrong height has been entered for the Gospel Pass. Now corrected with ref  Velella  Velella Talk 12:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Current OS 25K mapping gives a spot height of 545m at what would appear to be the summit of this road whilst a spot height at what appears to be the summit of the Gospel Pass has a value of 549m making the latter the highest road pass in Wales and relegating this one to second place. They are both exceeded of course by a further public road summit (albeit without a tarmac surface) at Pen Bwlch Llandrillo at SJ091365. cheers Geopersona (talk) 05:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


 * There has been further discussion at User talk:Wowbagger1954‎ copied below to bring it all into one place. Incidentally the pass near Llandrillo, the track from Llanrmon Dyffryn Ceiriog to Cynwyd is neither an adopted or metalled road albeit an excellent walking track.


 * There appears to be a difference of opinion regarding the highest road pass in Wales. There is a school of thought which claims that Bwlch y Groes (Gwynedd) is the highest, at 545 metres above sea level (Ordnance Survey). There is another which claims that Gospel Pass is the highest, at 549 metres above sea level (Ordnance Survey). It seems to me that Gospel Pass is the higher of the two, hence my edit to the pages relating to both mountain passes Wowbagger1954 (talk) 19:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The accepted references for UK heights is Ordnance survey which puts Gospel Pass at 538 metres and Bwlch y Groes at 545m. A track leading away from Gospel Pass reaches 549 metres but that is not a road nor a pass.  Velella  Velella Talk 19:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


 * A spot height on the road in an ordnance survey map does not necessarily represent the maximum height reached by that road. I refer you to this map: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=323536&Y=235203&A=Y&Z=115 which is the 1:25000 OS map of the area. The spot height is given as 538 metres yet it is clear that the road crosses the 540 metre contour and for a few metres is immediately adjacent to the 550 metre contour. In the case of Bwlch y Groes teh road is much further from the 550 metre contour. The (older) 1:50000 map shows 542 metres as a spot height. http://www.ukmapcentre.com/acatalog/10K_vector_dxf_dwg.html shows 549 metres, which I believe to be a recent addition. https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=39059.msg742506#msg742506 quotes 549 metres from the 1:10000 sheet, which does not appear to be accessible online. There seems to be no logic in Wikipedia quoting Bwlch y Groes as the highest road in Wales at 545 metres when the piece on Gospel Pass cites it at 549 metres. Certainly, it is the opinion of the cycling fraternity in Wales that Gospel Pass is the higher. --Wowbagger1954 (talk) 20:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I have no special remit for either pass and I have been over both of them. The issue here is that Wikipedia is based on verifiability which is not the same as truth. From the ordnance survey we can deduce that both passes are just below 550 metres by looking at the contours. The ordnance survey also provides some near-by spot heights which in neither case is exactly on the centre of the road at the highest point. The figures quoted are the highest verifiable heights that we have. However, it is very clear that the heights are very similar and it might be closer to what can be verified to say in both articles that each ".... is one of the two highest passes in Wales, the other being.....". I wouldn't have a problem with a statement like that.  Velella  Velella Talk 21:16, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Velella: I've a copy of the current 1:25,000 scale OS Explorer map in front of me as I type - purchased only last week in fact. The 538m spot height appears just as it does in the online mapping quoted above. There is in addition a 549m spot height within the bounds of the public road ie between the two dashed lines infilled with yellow at the very spot where the road reaches its highest point. This spot height is quite certainly not on any adjacent track. Gospel Pass is therefore verifiably the higher of the two passes. The Bwlch Landrillo route is indicated as an ORPA by OS which generally signifies a public status derived from the highway authority's List of streets, signifying that it is a public highway and usually indicative (but not necessarily) of it being a public vehicular route. Most ORPAs are not tarmacked though many may be metalled; others have no artificial surface whatsoever. cheers Geopersona (talk) 16:49, 17 May 2012 (UTC)