Talk:By the Waters of Babylon

the word UBTREAS
the word UBTREAS make up the subtreasury building in new york city. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.210.241.211 (talk • contribs) 01:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear holocaust
Could a story of "nuclear holocaust" been written in 1937? OlYeller 20:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it could have been about a nuclear holocaust, as all plans to develop nuclear weapons were top secret, according to the "nuclear weapon" page elsewhere on this site. Perhaps a simple bombing? 71.108.124.162 07:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)Skeptical

It could have been a nuclear holocaust...one never knows Shakuma 22:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Shakuma

I always thought that it was supposed to be a massive chemical war. I don't have a copy of the story in front of me, but I think that was even suggested in the story. The first World War was the first time modern chemical weapons had been used on a large scale, and this was still in the mind of the public at the time.
 * Good point. I've only ever paid attention to the parallels to latter development; I hadn't thought about the events in the past that the author would've drawn the idea from. Thanks. --Kizor 18:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The idea of fission and/or fusion weapons was well-known in the scientific world (and available to the literate public) during the 1930s:


 * "As the Nazi army marched into first Czechoslovakia in 1938, and then Poland in 1939, officially beginning World War II, many of Europe's top physicists had already begun to flee from the imminent conflict. Scientists on both sides of the conflict were well aware of the possibility of utilizing nuclear fission as a weapon, but at the time no one was quite sure how it could be done. In the early years of the Second World War, physicists abruptly stopped publishing on the topic of fission, an act of self-censorship to keep the opposing side from gaining any advantages."

Jim Dunning | talk  19:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it can be definitively stated that the "Great Burning" refers to the day an atomic bomb was detonated unless SVB said so himself. Science may have been aware of the possibility of a fission bomb, but that doesn't mean HE was, or that he meant it to refer to that. It is possible that he did, but merely being possible shouldn't cut it. --75.178.83.29 (talk) 19:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

There's reference in the story to the fact that the ground in the place newyork "burns forever", and that touching metal or eating food found in the dead places could mean death. i think that's a reference to chemical rather than nuclear weapons, especially because the windowpanes in the flat John sleeps during his visit to the city are intact. fan


 * Apocalyptic fiction predated the nuclear bomb (see H.G. Wells "A Dream of Armageddon" and "The Shape of Things to Come").Naaman Brown (talk) 16:27, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I know that the author was investigated by the FBI because of the story. It has widely been expressed that this was because of its depiction of what could only be the remains of a nuclear holocaust. I am reminded of the Airplane Sonata that was composed in the 1930s and prompted by the composer's dream of atomic annihilation. Gingermint (talk) 09:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

written in response to the bombing of Guernica
This looks like a reliable source and a plausible explanation. --Jtir 12:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Vincent Benet (1898-1943) David Garrett Izzo, Fayetteville State University, North Carolina "'And whether or not one knows Benet’s name, many are familiar with the science-fiction genre of which he was an early exponent, the story about a world in rubble with few survivors after an apocalyptic world war. Benet’s version, “By the Waters of Babylon”, was written in response to the bombing of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War; he wrote many more stories and poems concerning the threat of fascism in the 1930s.'"

Reasonable, but not convincing. Gingermint (talk) 09:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Shape-Shifting (Book) cites By the Waters of Babylon
This review suggests that the story depicts Native Americans. --Jtir 13:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Review of Shape-Shifting (Book)., By: Tosko, Michael, American Indian Quarterly, 0095182X, Summer2001, Vol. 25, Issue 3 Shape-Shifting: Images of Native Americans in Recent Popular Fiction. Andrew Macdonald, Gina Macdonald, and MaryAnn Sheridan. Westport CT: Greenwood Press, 2000. xvii + 338 pp. Illustrations, bibliography, index. Cloth, $69.50
 * The “recent” in the book's title is loosely defined, allowing the authors to cite earlier seminal works that have been either forgotten, such as Stephen St. Vincent Benet's “By the Waters of Babylon,” ...

BWB in a larger literary context?
I removed this from the article because no source is given for these comparisons. The section is already tagged with Refimprovesect.
 * Other such works are Futility, or the Wreck of the Titan (1898) about a massive ocean liner that runs into ice and sinks, The World Set Free (1914) by H.G. Wells about bombs that split the atom, and to a smaller degree, From the Earth to the Moon (1865) by Jules Verne and Edison's Conquest of Mars (1898), which suggests "ships of space" and "air-tight suits" among more fantastical concepts.

It seems likely that someone, e.g. a reviewer, critic, or author of an introduction, would have discussed BWB in a larger literary context.

--Jtir 21:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe the same exact text is in The Hollow Men Article. Perhaps someone should remove it there too... But that's pretty much all that's in the interpretation part of that article, which also needs a major reworking. --Goriya 23:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the links of the "clues"
So that's what Ou-dis-sun means. IMO, however, these links are interpretion that doesn't really belong in the plot summary. It would, of course, be appropriate to explain the words you linked in the Analysis section. --Jtir 19:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC) [Copied from User talk:68.39.174.238 to establish context.--Jtir 20:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)]
 * Do with them as you will, but I'm almost certain they the names intend them to be seen as artifacts of New York.
 * Obviously, if anyone knows if Benet actually stated what they were/where they were, that would solve the entire problem. 68.39.174.238 20:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that these wikilinks should not be here. While at least some of these seem obvious to us, the fact is, we are speculating.  Links based upon our speculation are, first of all, completely unnecessary (no one will "lose out" if the article on BWB does not include a link to the article on George Washington), and secondly, potentially misleading (since we really can't say for certain what those words mean).  Bottom line:  No harm in leaving them off, slight potential for misinformation with them.  No links.  Unschool 22:50, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * But mentioning these things in the Analysis section is okay, of course. Whether the links are included there or not, I'm less passionate about.  I'm still disinclined, but, well, whatever.  Unschool 22:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

== I'm pretty sure "Ou-dis-son" means "Hudson." Edison River runs by Detroit.Yopienso 06:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

image for the article
This article could use an image. I searched for "Hudson River" at commons and found many photos and paintings. I added this one, because it shows the Hudson River (which the article now has sourced as the interpretation of "Ou-dis-sun"), has a primitive look, and shows mountains and fog, both of which are mentioned in the story. I tried to DL the cover of the play adaptation, but that doesn't seem to be possible. The story as originally published in The Saturday Evening Post had illustrations by Henry C. Pitz. We should be able to use either by claiming fair use. --Jtir (talk) 20:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I just realized that I could do a screen capture, which would result in the reduced resolution that is needed to claim fair use. Before going to the trouble, are there any objections to using the cover of the play adaptation to illustrate the article? --Jtir (talk) 21:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

For those looking to understand this better. The story takes place in New York State. The Onondaga means "people of the hills." If you follow the route from the traditional names, he enters the domains of the forest people. And the mountains are either the Adirondack or the Catskills. He lived in Albany for a bit. 198.36.23.232 (talk) 12:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Allusion to the bible.
Shouldn't it be mentioned that the title is an allusion to a part of the bible? Idofen (talk &#124; contribs &#124; August 22)  —Preceding undated comment added 01:33, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Psalm 137 in the Hebrew Bible (Septuagint) refers to the Babylonian exile in the sixth century BC - "By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept, when we remembered Zion." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.164.192 (talk) 04:00, 28 December 2014 (UTC)