Talk:Byeongsin chum

774townsclear's revert
Firstly, Byung shin chum is a traditional Korean folk dance that does mimic the handicapped such as gimps, midgets, hunchbacks, and lepers. The name "Byung shin chum" is literally the dance (춤) of the handicapped (병신). This is an important fact about this dance, so please don't delete it.

Secondly, there does exist a controversy over the discriminatory nature of this dance. It doesn't matter whether the version that is being criticized is modern or traditional. It's the same "Byung shin chum."

Thirdly, that the dance was performed to criticize the Korean nobility (Yangban) (by depicting them as the handicapped) is already mentioned in the current version of the article. Read it carefully. --Saintjust (talk) 03:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Put on a self made article. omitting normal article from source, and only negative contents remain. Certainly Push POV Troll. and 3th source is not relation with Traditional Dance. just comedy dance in theater. article said "no one blame similar Traditional dance, but Why blame our dance?" (it means that comdey dance is NOT traditional dance, but he edited that it was traditional dance) He distort the meaning, too. I request to remove this Pushing POV troll. 774townsclear (talk) 03:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Korean nobility (Yangban) by depicting them as the handicapped persons and sick persons?


 * there is no contents from you source. Lyrics is a satirical drama to Yangban. They did not Korean nobility (Yangban) by depicting them as the handicapped persons. your edit are wrong content.774townsclear (talk) 03:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't "omit" anything. The earlier version of the article was a stub that merely lacked in content. There is a modern, more comedic version of the dance (that is controversial) as well as a version that is more genuine to the tradition (and seems to be more accepted). Just because it is modern and comedic doesn't mean it's not Byung shin chum. --Saintjust (talk) 03:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * see your 2nd source. it metioned that 구전설화나 판소리, 고전소설에 나오는 인물들의 흉내를 내기도 한다.  774townsclear (talk) 03:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Britannica writes that "여기에는 히줄대기・떨떨이・절름발이 (gimp)・배불뚝이 (pot bellied) ・꼬부랑할미 (old bag bent with age)・곱추 (hunchbacked)・난쟁이 (midget)・벙어리 (deaf)・봉사 (blind)・중풍쟁이 (palsy) ・문둥이 (leper) 등이 나오는데 덧배기가락에 맞추어 혼자 또는 짝짓거나 무리지어 한바탕 난장을 벌인다." --Saintjust (talk) 03:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "병신춤은 양반들을 흉내내어 풍자하는 의미를 갖고 있다." it does not mean Korean nobility (Yangban) by depicting them as the handicapped persons and sick persons 774townsclear (talk) 03:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * unclear article delete. 774townsclear (talk) 03:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it does: "병신의 몸짓을 흉내내 지배계층인 양반을 병신처럼 풍자하여 추는 모방춤" (again from Britannica), where "병신" (byung shin) refers to all sorts of the handicapped listed above and "지배계층인 양반" being the ruling nobility (Yangban) class.
 * it does only refer to "병세이굿". it is not "all Byung shin chum is 병세이굿". you are truly distoring anything! 774townsclear (talk) 06:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The favorite source of yours also writes: "병신춤에서 주로 묘사되는 대상은 난장이, 중풍병자, 배불뚝이(배가 불룩하게 튀어 나온사람), 꼬부랑 할머니, 문둥이, 꼽추, 절름발이, 곰배팔이(팔의 관절이 굽혀진 상태로서 펼 수가 없는 사람), 원숭이 등 매우다채로우며" right before the sentence that you quoted above. The handicapped are the main figures that are being depicted in the dance.
 * do not omit "구전설화나 판소리, 고전소설에 나오는 인물들의 흉내를 내기도 한다" 774townsclear (talk) 06:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Now don't omit the very important part. It's Byung shin chum after all. --Saintjust (talk) 04:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * it is not my favorite source. first, it was your favorite source. 774townsclear (talk) 06:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't PuSh POV Trolling
Article edit is totally negative image. omitting major things of this dance. pick a Negative word only. this POV troll intention is "Traditionally, Korea discriminate handicapped person.". Again, This dance intention is not for discriminate handicapped person. It's "a satirical drama ". 774townsclear (talk) 06:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This dance is not aim for discriminate handicapped person. It's "a satirical drama ".
Don't pick a negative sentence from source. This dance is a satirical drama. also, do not fabricate 3rd souce. According to 3rd souce contents, They are not Traditional Dancer. They do not work for Koean Traditional dance and Byung shin chum. comedy dance in theater. article said "no one blame similar Traditional dance, but Why blame our dance?" (it means No one blame Byung shin chum. our comdey dance is NOT traditional dance, but similar. Why people blame us?) 774townsclear (talk) 06:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok? Don't put on a fabricate anymore. 774townsclear (talk) 06:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

같이 놀던 사람이건 구경꾼이건 이를 보고 더욱 흥겨움에 젖어든다. 이는 불구자를 단순히 흉내내어 모멸하기 위해서 추는 춤이 결코 아니다. 이는 춤을 출 수 없는 신체적 불구자가 추는 춤이되, 불구에서 정상으로 옮겨 내는 싸움의 춤이다. 그리고 그것은 모두가 사회적으로 병신이라는 것을 깨닫게 하는 춤이며, 불구화된 것을 불구로써 척결하여 인간의 해방을 성취하고자 하는 춤이다. 춤으로써 가장 인간적인 것이 지상에 실현되는, 지상을 미적 유토피아로 뒤바꾸는 춤인 것이다. Chae Hui hwan, Pusan University Professor. source from Academic Journal. 774townsclear (talk)
 * Sourve proved. This dance is not aim for discriminate handicapped person. must write this fact. 774townsclear (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

RfC: Reference of mimicking of the handicapped and the allegation of discrimination
The edit at issue:.

''This RfC has been closed because User:774townsclear with whom the filer (User:Saintjust) was arguing was indef. blocked from editing Wikipedia on December 1, 2007. See Suspected sock puppets/Bason0.''

Opening statement by Saintjust
Note: Please leave your comments in the comment section below, not in this opening statement section.

Problem #1: User:774townsclear keeps deleting the reference to the dance's mimicking of the handicapped.


 * The dance is called "Byung shin chum," which literally means "the dance of the handicapped." It is a Korean folk dance that was performed by the lower class peasants to satirize Korean nobility (Yangban) by depicting them as the handicapped persons and sick persons such as gimps, midgets, hunchbacks, the deaf, the blind, and lepers, as well as characters from Pansori and other Korean folklore. This is exactly how Encyclopædia Britannica and other notable sources describes the dance:


 * "병신의 몸짓을 흉내내 지배계층인 양반을 병신처럼 풍자하여 추는 모방춤," where "병신" (byung shin) refers to all sorts of the handicapped listed below and "지배계층인 양반" is the ruling nobility (Yangban) class.
 * "여기에는 히줄대기・떨떨이・절름발이 (gimp)・배불뚝이 (pot bellied) ・꼬부랑할미 (old bag bent with age)・곱추 (hunchbacked)・난쟁이 (midget)・벙어리 (deaf)・봉사 (blind)・중풍쟁이 (palsy) ・문둥이 (leper) 등이 나오는데 덧배기가락에 맞추어 혼자 또는 짝짓거나 무리지어 한바탕 난장을 벌인다."


 * Mimicking of the handicapped is what makes this dance Byung shin chum. Deleting the reference of it makes no sense (see the 774townsclea version for comparison).

Problem #2: User:774townsclear deletes the paragraph on the discrimination allegation of the dance.


 * He deletes the following paragraph: In 2001, Byung shin chum played by a Korean theatrical group in Daehangno has caused a controversy that the play could be discriminatory and offensive toward the handicapped. The Research Institute of the Differently Abled Person's Right in Korea (RIDRIK) expressed that although the freedom of expression is important in art, the form that makes fun of the alienated is the problem, and that they will cut off the old customs of the Korean society that humiliate the handicapped. (cf. )


 * This is an important issue reported by the Kukmin Daily and merits reference. It doesn't matter if the critics criticized only a modern version of Byung shin chum performed by the Daehangno-based group while condoning its genuine traditional form. As far as it is some kind of Byung shin chum, it is noteworthy in the article.

Problem #3: User:774townsclear keeps name-calling "Push POV troll," etc.
 * This is in violation of Civility. --Saintjust (talk) 07:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Comments
User:774townsclear keeps deleting the reference to the dance's mimicking of the handicapped. User:Saintjust Pick a negative word from chosen source. omitting many. only pick a negative image. and pushing POV troll.
 * Problem 1

The dance is called "Byung shin chum," which literally means "the dance of the handicapped." It is a Korean folk dance that was performed by the lower class peasants to satirize Korean nobility (Yangban) by depicting them as the handicapped persons and sick persons such as gimps, midgets, hunchbacks, the deaf, the blind, and lepers, as well as characters from Pansori and other Korean folklore. This is exactly how Encyclopædia Britannica and other notable sources describse the dance.


 * << Korean nobility (Yangban) by depicting them as the handicapped persons???
 * << 1. it does only refer to "병세이굿". it is not "all Byung shin chum is 병세이굿". don't distoring.
 * << 2. all Byung shin chum depicting Yangban as handicapped persons? no. it's not. so, i revert it. because it's wrong edit. 774townsclear (talk)
 * << you must do not omit "구전설화나 판소리, 고전소설에 나오는 인물들의 흉내를 내기도 한다" from your favorite source. ok? 774townsclear (talk) 09:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "병신의 몸짓을 흉내내 지배계층인 양반을 병신처럼 풍자하여 추는 모방춤," where "병신" (byung shin) refers to all sorts of the handicapped listed below and "지배계층인 양반" is the ruling nobility (Yangban) class.
 * "여기에는 히줄대기・떨떨이・절름발이 (gimp)・배불뚝이 (pot bellied) ・꼬부랑할미 (old bag bent with age)・곱추 (hunchbacked)・난쟁이 (midget)・벙어리 (deaf)・봉사 (blind)・중풍쟁이 (palsy) ・문둥이 (leper) 등이 나오는데 덧배기가락에 맞추어 혼자 또는 짝짓거나 무리지어 한바탕 난장을 벌인다."

Mimicking of the handicapped is what makes this dance Byung shin chum. Deleting its reference makes no sense.
 * << you only pick an negative article from source and push POV troll.774townsclear (talk)

User:774townsclear deletes the following paragraph:
 * Problem 2


 * In 2001, Byung shin chum played by a Korean theatrical group in Daehangno has caused a controversy that the play could be discriminatory and offensive toward the handicapped. The Research Institute of the Differently Abled Person's Right in Korea (RIDRIK) expressed that although the freedom of expression is important in art, the form that makes fun of the alienated is the problem, and that they will cut off the old customs of the Korean society that humiliate the handicapped. (cf. )

This is an important issue reported by the Kukmin Daily and merits reference. It doesn't matter if the critics criticized only a modern version of Byung shin chum performed by the Daehangno-based group while condoning its genuine traditional form. It is the same Byung shin chum, and it should be mentioned in this article. --Saintjust (talk) 07:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * << sorry. 1st,your translation is wrong. I'm not english very well. you pick a negative word from that source.
 * << 이에 기획사는 “우리 사회가 웃음 소재 대상을 규제하는 것이 문제”라면서 “시정을 지시했다”는 회신을 보냈다.
 * << 네티즌은 “공옥진 여사의 병신춤은 아무도 비난하지 않는다”면서 “이씨의 주장은 위선일 뿐”이라고 공격했다．
 * << 공연내용 시정을 약속했던 기획사도 “우리 극장에는 장애인들이 매회 관람을 하고 있다”며 “차라리 근처 재활원에 자원봉사를 나가라”며 입장을 바꿨다．
 * << And most important thing, They do not work for Koean Traditional dance. and they are not pro dancer of Byung shin chum. It is still unclear. That dance is only similar "Byung shin chum".
 * << In korea, "Traditional Byung shin chum Performer" is only one woman. other are not Byung shin chum. just looks like "Byung shin chum". 774townsclear (talk)


 * The paragraph talks about "Byung shin chum played by a Korean theatrical group in Daehangno" being discriminatory, not other variants of the dance, modern or traditional or otherwise. --Saintjust (talk) 08:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Does the paragraph say that the Byung shin chum performed by Gong Ok-jin is being accused of discrimination? No, it doesn't. Does the paragraph say that all the traditional versions of Byung shin chum are being accused of discrimination? No, it doesn't. Besides, the opinion of an anonymous Korean netizen (the bolded part in the above Hangul text) isn't of much importance here.


 * And what's your reasoning for entirely deleting the reference to mimicking of the handicapped? It makes zero sense to write "This dance is not aim for discriminate handicapped person" when there is no mention of the handicapped in the article before that to begin with. --Saintjust (talk) 08:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * <<no. According to your source, News never mentioned, "Handicapped person dance" is "Traditional dance, Byung shin chum".
 * <<That's very common word. "Byung shin" (handicapped person) + "Chum" (Dance)
 * <<Understand? This 'Byung shin chum' and That 'Handicapped person dance' are different.
 * <<In my guess, That Korean theatrical group performed some comdey dance. like gorilla dance or whatever. They performed 'comical Handicapped person dance'. not Byung shin chum(Traditional dance).
 * <<No one blame Byung shin chum(Traditional dance). because This dance is not aim for discriminate handicapped person. It's "a satirical drama ". all korean know this. so, your source metioned that "네티즌은 “공옥진 여사의 병신춤은 아무도 비난하지 않는다”면서 “이씨의 주장은 위선일 뿐”이라고 공격했다 no one blame Byung shin chum(Traditional dance)". from your favorite source Kukmin Daily.774townsclear (talk)
 * <<you only pick an negative article from source and push POV troll.774townsclear (talk)


 * I didn't write that the Byung shin chum being criticized is a "traditional" one, either. The one being criticized is possibly a new, modern from of Byung shin chum.


 * Can you see the word 네티즌 there? That's an opinion of an anonymous netizen. --Saintjust (talk) 08:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * <<i don't repeat twice. According to your source, News never mentioned, "their comical Handicapped person dance" is "Traditional dance, Byung shin chum".
 * <<You think their dance is modern version of Byung shin chum? News never metioned.
 * <<That's very common word. "Byung shin" (handicapped person) + "Chum" (Dance) 774townsclear (talk)
 * <<you distoring word. and pick a negative article and push POV troll. 774townsclear (talk)


 * Whatever it was, it was Byung shin chum according to the news. Byung shin chum is Byung shin chum. It doesn't matter whether traditional or otherwise. It's noteworthy as far as it's some kind of Byung shin chum. I never mentioned that it was a traditional one. --Saintjust (talk) 08:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * <<No. Must distinguish "their comical Handicapped person dance' from "Traditional dance, Byung shin chum".
 * <<you just play in a wordplay.
 * <<Understand? This 'Byung shin chum' and That 'Handicapped person dance' are different.
 * <<i did attached academic journal source, about 'Byung shin chum'.
 * <<Byung shin chum(Traditional) is not for despise handicapped person.
 * <<you only pick aa negative article from source and push POV troll. 774townsclear (talk)


 * Don't change the word. The article says "Byung shin chum," not "Handicapped person dance." If it were a completely unrelated dance, then why did the article mention the traditional Byung shin chum in the article? Besides, "Byung shin chum" is a proper noun. You don't break it down like that. --Saintjust (talk) 08:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * <<Bro. i don't play with 'Push POV troll' like you. you just wordplay. it's paronomasia.
 * <<pick a negative article from source. and make distorted article. it is you. 774townsclear (talk) 08:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What a mess. Saintjust, you need to take a responsiblity
Until encountering you, Saintjust at the discussion for deletion of cat. Korean fruits, I've tried to not care much about your "special interest" on Korean related articles. As you know well that you're very notorious to Korean editors for your activities. The editors dedicating into Korean dance or performing arts are only a few including myself, Badagnani, Crispypark in the present. I didn't get surprised at you creating this article about one month ago by your obvious intention, because you've always brought up very controversial and even unfamiliar items to Koreans for your sake to wikipedia. I've never heard of this dance in my life until you added it to Korean dance article. In addition, this article provided neither citation nor reference but just had one poorly written sentence. I've waiting for you to improve this article for one month, but you seems to care much about other special interests of Korea. Threfore, I had a conclusion that you abandoned this article and wanted to pass your responsiblity over to others. This dance is in the process of getting an attention to public, so the rank is lower than any other performing art. Moreover you never cared this article until I tagged the speedy deletion to it. After that I was so amazed that you were expanding it a little in hurry to prevent this article to be deleted. After you expanded it with verifiable sources, I have no reason to object to this article's existence. But you distorted some contents which caused some another "interesting" person's attention. I was mainly an editor of commons, so don't know the long history between you and the other. However, you need to stick to the reference. If you don't, you would waste your time dealing with that kind of person.--Appletrees 20:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm happy that you are satisfied with the current expanded version of the article. --Saintjust 21:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Concerns on translation
The earlier translation of this read that the dance "enlightens the viewers that everybody is socially handicapped (byung shin)." This makes utter nonsense of the Korean word byung shin which means "bodily disabled". You can't be socially physically handicapped. I think my translation is more correct. Please do a word-by-word breakdown for me if I am wrong. Shii (tock) 14:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Spelling
Per WP:NC-KO: "if there is no established English spelling, then Revised Romanization should be used for South Korean and pre-1945 Korean names". Among books, academic papers, and newspaper articles: Basically, there is either no established English spelling, or the RR spelling is the established English spelling; in either case, that means the article should use RR.
 * I found three sources using the RR spelling "byeongsin chum", and two more using "byeongsinchum"
 * I found one source using the MR-based spelling "pyongsin chum"
 * There are no books using "byung shin chum" besides Books LLC and similar Wikipedia scrapers. Among web results, for me, produces no results after the 5th page, and all of them are again Wikipedia scrapers, webforum posts, or other unreliable sources except for one Korea Herald article.

Regarding the spacing: 병신 is definitely one word not two words, so it should be written without a space in English. However, there's disagreement among reliable sources whether to put a space before "chum" or not. For the moment I'll leave the space before "chum"; if someone else thinks it's a good idea to eliminate the space, the article could be moved again. 61.10.165.33 (talk) 04:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 13 October 2014

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 02:09, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Byung shin chum → Byeongsin chum – WP:NC-KO: "if there is no established English spelling, then Revised Romanization should be used for South Korean and pre-1945 Korean names" --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 03:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC) – 61.10.165.33 (talk) 04:03, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:23, 13 October 2014 (UTC)


 * This word is the name of a dance and not the name of a human. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:23, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:MOSKO also states: "In general, use the Revised Romanization system for articles with topics about South Korea and topics about Korea before the division" except in cases where there is a pre-existing non-systemic English spelling (e.g. taekwondo). And the evidence above shows that either "byeongsin chum" or "byeongsinchum" is the most common spelling in reliable sources anyway, not "byung shin chum". 61.10.165.33 (talk) 04:37, 13 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support unless an old spelling is shown to be more common, we default to standardised romanisations. &mdash;innotata 03:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support per WP policy and practice. No need for inconsistent Konglish spellings, especially if, as 61.10.165.33 asserts, the RR spelling is more common.  —  AjaxSmack   01:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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