Talk:Byzantine army (Komnenian era)

Untitled
The title looks like an original research to me. Is the term used in scholarly literature? Was the 12th-century Byzantine army so much different from that existing before or since? -- Ghirla -трёп-  10:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the term is used in J. Birkenmeier's book "the development of the Komnenian army, 1081-1180". Certainly the 12th century Byzantine army was very different from that existing before and since. For example, Byzantine historian John Haldon says in his "Byzantine Wars" that the Komnenian army was "a very different type of army from that which had won the great victories of the later tenth and early eleventh centuries, and different yet again from the thematic forces which had defended the empire from the seventh century". I hope that answers your question, but if you have any other questions about the term or its use in the article, I'd be glad to answer them. Bigdaddy1204 11:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your answers. -- Ghirla -трёп-  11:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Birkenmeier?!? Ha, I've had that guy for two classes -- he teaches at UMBC.  The Birkenmeister is aweseome! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.157.74.8 (talk • contribs).

Komnenian
Could someone explain me why does this article (and I just noticed that other articles changed since my last visits) use the form "Komnenian" instead of the usual and recognizable "Comnenian"? GhePeU 12:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

There was a lengthy discussion about this on Talk:Constantine XI. Basically, it was decided to change the spellings of Byzantine related names to the ODB standard, which is to use common english forms of first names (e.g. John), but to use a form of the surname which is closer to the original Greek (e.g. Komnenos instead of the Latin Comnenus). I hope that answers your question. Bigdaddy1204 12:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

1097 = 70,000 troops?
This seems quite impressive. As a Byzantine empire fan, I would wish it to be true, but - seriously - 70,000 troops? 1097? The restoration had not truly begun yet in 1097, though Nicaea was in Byzantine hands. With 70,000 troops, I can't see how Alexius could not even take back the whole of Asia minor. Tourskin

I'm not sure where the 70,000 number comes from. Without a citation, you are right not to trust it. I am the author of this article, but if I remember correctly the 70,000 figure was not part of my original text. I will look into Byzantine army sizes, and see if I can find a reliable estimate of imperial strength at the time. I do have a suspicion that the 70,000 figure may have come from the Men-at-arms book on 'Byzantine armies, 1118-1400s', but I'm not certain of this. Bigdaddy1204 14:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Additions?
Under John and Manuel a system of permanent army camps was organised (the names Lopadion and Rhyndacus spring to mind) one in Bythinia the other in Thrace. The army was concentrated at one or other of the camps, depending on the projected area of operations, and these seem to have been used to prepare the field army for campaign. This appears to have been an innovation and may have played a part in the increase in efficiency seen in the Byzantine army in the period.

The Vardariots were an important cavalry unit in the period, raised from Christian Turks settled in the Vardar valley in the Balkans.

The Archontupouloi was a guard regiment raised by Alexius from the sons of dead Byzantine officers.

It might be mentioned that Manuel allegedly Westernised his heavy cavalry, presumably introducing the couched-lance technique and close order charge. (from Kinnamos/Cinnamus - I think).

Urselius 13:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Those are some very good points. If you feel able, I encourage you to add them to the article as soon as possible - the more detail, the better. This article being rated as start class at the moment, I would be very happy for you to add the points you mentioned. :) Bigdaddy1204 14:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Happy to oblige. I also mentioned the semi-feudal pronoia system which was just beginning to become important at the end of the Komnenian period.

Urselius 21:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

New Section
I have added a section on the structure of the army and some footnotes.Urselius 08:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have added a section on arms and armour. Urselius (talk) 11:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Cataphracts
Can anybody refer me to a primary source that shows the continuing presence of cataphracts in the Komnenian army? As far as I know their last appearance was in 1001--before Alexios I had even risen to the throne--but I'm not closing my eyes to the possibility that the Komneni might have revived the cataphracts yet again.

Lay (talk) 13:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes try Kinnamos (John Cinnamus - The Deeds of John and Manuel Comnenus) or Psellus (describing Isaac Komnenos' troops in the mid 11th century), and also Niketas Choniates.

Cataphract is a Greek term meaning 'covered-over' or 'fully-covered' and is used in a military context for both heavily armoured soldiers and warships with protection for the upper decks. Cataphract was a rather imprecise term, in a similar way that in English 'harness' could mean body armour or any construct which featured straps and buckles (eg horse-harness), so in Greek cataphractos could refer to anything which was notable for being covered. Any soldiers who were reasonably well armoured with metallic armour could be called cataphractoi, even infantrymen. Modern military histories, particularly populist ones, have given the impression that the term refers only to heavy cavalrymen armoured cap-a-pied and mounted on armoured horses, this was not the case.

In the 10th century the emperor Nikephoros Phokas is recorded as reviving the super-heavy cavalry found in Late Antiquity - soldiers fully armoured, with only the eyes visible, mounted on barded horses. However, these troops, whilst obviously "cataphract" in the general sense of the term had their own name which was 'klibanophoroi' (which might be translated in a mixture of Latin and Greek as 'oven-bearers'). These troops are not mentioned later than the reign of Basil II (died 1025).

It would be wrong to think, just because entire units of these super-heavy cavalry ceased to be recruited, that very complete armour for soldiers or horse armour disappeared completely from Byzantine armies after around 1050; it is merely likely that such expensive equipment became limited to the rich military aristocracy and possibly to some guard units. At least one illustration of Byzantine horse armour occurs in 14th century manuscripts, and the form of the armour appears to be identical to that described in earlier periods. Therefore the total disappearance of such armour in the intervening centuries is unlikely. Urselius (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Another source is Anna Comnena - The Alexiad - p. 42 "Alexius covered his face, drawing down the vizor fastened to the rim of his helmet..." This sounds very much like Alexios Komnenos was wearing the type of face-covering mail camail described as part of the protection of the Nikephorian klibanophoros. At the very least, with armour for the face, Alexios was undoubtendly very completely armoured. A later section (Battle of Dyrrachium) in the book describes how Alexios was being thrust at by lances from foes on either side, only retaining his seat on his horse because the pressure was equal, however, his armour must have been very effective because he suffered no injury.

Treadgold
There are two Treadgold books in the secondary sources, but the inline citations for this author do not indicate which of the two books are being referred to. I don't have the books so cannot correct this. Urselius (talk) 20:39, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 18 June 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved to the suggestion by Urselius/Constantine. There's a clear consensus that the articles should be moved, but this has been sitting in the backlog for a few weeks because it's a bit unclear what they should actually be moved to. The option I've gone with has the most support, although the suggestions by Srnec and Cuchullain were in no way poor and will be created as redirects. Jenks24 (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

– It's more natural this way. Or else Byzantine army under the Komnenoi or Byzantine army under the Palaiologoi. The current title may work in prose where it is clear that Komnenian modifies "Byzantine army", but as a standalone title it can be read as if "Komnenian Byzantine" is an awkward compound adjective. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 01:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Srnec (talk) 20:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Komnenian Byzantine army → Komnenian army
 * Palaiologan Byzantine army → Palaiologan army

Oppose - with alternative suggestions: It is not ideal at present, however the previous title of this article, "Komnenian Army", was not suitable for the cogent reason that any potential reader who was not versed in Byzantine history would not know that it referred to a Byzantine subject, and hence the article would loose prominence and relevance in the context of Byzantine history. Therefore, although there is scholarly support for this title, we should not revisit it here. I would oppose the suggested change of title in this direction. As for the linguistic angle, I do not see much of a problem, 'Komnenian Byzantine Army' is no different to the constructs: 'Imperial Roman Army' and 'Republican Roman army', which are in general use, including on Wikipedia. However, "Byzantine army under the Komnenoi" or, better, "Byzantine army (Komnenian era)" or "Byzantine army in the Komnenian era" would be acceptable. Use of "Komnenoi", introduces a Greek plural form that might be confusing for English speakers. Urselius (talk) 07:05, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Support for the alternative names, esp. Byzantine army (Komnenian era) and Byzantine army (Palaiologan era). Constantine  ✍  08:00, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Komnenian army per this book, which uses that exact name. I find no sources that use the terms "Palaiologan army"; I'd suggest going with a descriptive title for that one, ie Byzantine army under the Palaiologoi.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per Constantine's suggestion. José Luiz talk 17:58, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Support alternate suggestions by Urselius and Constantine. Egsan Bacon (talk) 16:34, 16 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Russia and Rus'
To everyone tempted to change all use of 'Russia' and 'Russian' in the article. Please consider that scholarship takes precedent over political or nationalistic considerations, and that in the English language Wikipedia sources in English language are used preferentially.

The use of 'Russia' and 'Russian' is supported by a number of factors.

1) It is used in the secondary sources.

2) The word 'Russia' derives from the Byzantine Greek Rhosia, so its use in a Byzantine article is apt linguistically.

3) At the time period of the article the ethnogenesis of White Russians, Ukrainians and Great Russians had not taken place. It did not take place until after the Mongol invasions, at the earliest. These peoples were politically and culturally homogenous, spoke East Slavic dialects that were not yet separate languages and wrote in the same language, Old Church Slavonic. Plus, to outsiders, who universally adopted variants of the Greek term Rhosia, they were all 'Russians'.

4) The use of a terminal apostrophe, as in Rus', is remarkably ugly to English-speakers and primarily suggests "belonging to more than one 'Ru'". Urselius (talk) 17:55, 12 November 2022 (UTC)