Talk:Byzantine flags and insignia

Byzantine Heraldry
Hello all,

A number of us had been discussing the creation of a Byzantine Heraldry page for a while, so I've created a number of graphical representations of Dynastic Arms and Byzantine Flags/Banners from the armorial descriptions listed below, (and from various other sources). The depictions are in the form of a labarum/square flag rather than the more common "western" shield representations.

I am not an expert on heraldry, so I've only attempted the few blazons I was game enough to decipher. My main intention was to create a starting point from which everyone can contribute to build a comprehensive article on a subject that is, unfortunately, often overlooked. Regards, Dragases (talk) 13:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * labarum/square flag: The square flag of this type is called a heraldic banner or banner of arms.
 * Sv1xv (talk) 07:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Sources (Dynastic Arms)
http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/per/vlasto.byzantium.html Rietstap's Armorial

Angelos gules, 4 lozenges Or with an angel on each. (Greece) Argyros Or, a cross between 4 stars azure. Barbaro Argent, an annulet gules. Cantacuzene Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece) Comnene Or, beneath an imperial crown proper, a two-headed eagle displayed Sable on a sword per pale Argent, the hilt Or. (Corsica, Savoy) Comneno Or, beneath an imperial crown proper, a double-headed eagle displayed Sable, holding in each claw a sword paleways Argent; on its breast an oval escutcheon, Argent 3 bells (?) Azure. (Milan) Comnenos (emperors of Trebizonde): Argent, three bars Sable. (Greece) Ducas Azure, a cross Argent. (Greece) Koressio (dukes): Sable, beneath an imperial crown proper, a two-headed eagle displayed Or, holding in each claw a sword paleways Argent. (Greece) Lascaris Or, a double-headed eagle Sable, beaked Gules, beneath an eastern crown Or. (Greece) Lascaris Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or; on its breast an escutcheon: Gules, a sun Or. (Verona, Dalmatia) Lascaris quartered Azure and Argent, on which an double-headed eagle Sable, membered, beaked, crowned Or; on its breast an escutcheon: Gules, a sun Or. (Verona). Lascaris Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece, Provence) Lascaris quartered Gules a chief Or; and Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. Lascaris-Castellar: Or, a double-headed eagle Sable, membered, beaked Gules. (Italy) Melissinos Gules, an escutcheon or, 3 bells sable, between six bees 1, 2, 2, 1 of the second. Melisurgo Azure, on a mound in base three daisies argent, below four bees per fess or, in dexter chief a sun issuant of the last. Micrulaches Gules, three lions passant or. Palaelogus Gules, a Cross and four B's Or. (Greece) Paleologue Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece, Piedmont) Phocas Gules, four lozenges conjoined in pale gules. Phouskarnaki Azure, the figure of the Blessed Virgin bearing the Divine Child argent. Phrangopoulos Sable, a fleur-de-lys or. Rhadino Argent, the sun in splendor or. Rhangabe Azure, a cross flory between the letters "e", "n", "t", "n" argent. Rhaoules Azure, a leopard rampant or. Rhodocanakis Gules, a two-headed eagle or, on its breast an escutcheon Azure, a cross argent between ?. Vatatzes Vert, a double-headed eagle displayed Or, above each head an estoile Argent. (Greece) Vlasto Gules, three plates 2 and 1. Vlattera Gules, 4 bends or.

(Dynastic Arms)
There was a nice picture collection of these arms on this section, can anyone tell me why in the name of God were these images deleted and replaced by one petty paragraph and just two pictures??? This was a great collection! What happened to it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.19.201.184 (talk) 00:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Please read my comments above. While the collection was great, there do not exist any sources to back up their existence. Rietstap's Armorial is a 19th century work drawing on medieval traditions, and as far as Byzantium is concerned many of those traditions and records are bound to be wrong or invented. Heraldry in the Western sense did not exist in Byzantium, and if no proper sources are given, these "reconstructions", no matter how pretty or interesting, do not belong in an encyclopedia. Constantine  ✍  08:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Constantine on this. I originally created these images for my own use, and I confess, I knew little of Rietstap's Armorial (and its lack of credibility regarding Byzantine "heraldry") when I uploaded them. Dragases (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Dates
"Only from the 12th century onwards, when the Empire came in increased contact with Westerners because of the Crusades, did heraldry begin to be used among Byzantines."

Well, this phrase is somewhat inaccurate and misleading. Systematic heraldry did not exist before the 12th century even in the West. SV1XV (talk) 06:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Symbol of the middle Byzantine state
If one had to depict the middle Byzantine state with a symbol, say around the reign of Basileios II of the Macedonian dynasty (10th century), what symbol should he/she use? Also, what would be the best symbol to depict the Empire during Komnenian rule? I'm hoping to get to the bottom of this so it can be applied to other articles. Thank you --  Director  ( talk )  16:09, 18 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The middle Byzantine period is a big unknown. In infoboxes and the like, we usually employ Simple Labarum.svg, but unless it is absolutely necessary, it's best to leave it blank. Constantine  ✍  16:25, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * So all the way until the 14th century we really have no idea whatsoever what the symbols of the empire were? -- Director  ( talk )  16:26, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the article, you'll get an idea. The Byzantines were nothing if not traditionalists, so most of the stuff from Late Antiquity was probably still in use, but we don't have any attested use of the sort. And, of course, don't expect anything resembling a universal "national flag" at that time, neither in Byzantium nor elsewhere (the Roman vexillum we use so often here in WP is grossly misleading in this sense). Constantine  ✍  16:32, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, that thing should probably be replaced simply with "S.P.Q.R." Perhaps the flag of the ruling dynasty might be used to represent the Empire? I've seen a white cross in a blue field being used as the Doukas emblem, for example. Is there any truth to that? -- Director  ( talk )  18:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No. See the discussions above. These images were part of the original version of the article, but their provenance is highly doubtful; they are most likely invented, and in the best of cases, post-Byzantine (i.e. from Greek noble families in Venetian-controlled territories). The only dynastic emblem we know of for sure is the tetragrammic cross of the Palaiologoi, which was also de facto the "Flag of the Byzantine Empire" in the 13th-15th centuries. The dibellion might serve as a unifying symbol (although it was the emperor's personal flag rather than a state flag), and there are references to a chequerboard pattern as a "traditional" imperial emblem. I'll add more information on personal and family emblems (mostly ciphers) over the next days and weeks. Keep tuned in! Constantine  ✍  18:49, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You know I've been wondering about these issues for ages now, thanks for filling me in. Will certainly stay tuned, very interesting :). In the meantime I'll see about bringing the main article up to speed. If I got it straight, the tetragrammic cross was the personal flag of the emperor, whereas the double-headed eagle was the emblem of the Palaeologian dynasty? Or was the latter also an emblem of the Emperor? What exactly was their relationship? (I'm asking because I'd like to see an accurate caption in the main article) -- Director  ( talk )  19:17, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The tetragrammic cross in its specific form (with the four "B"s) was a dynastic symbol, i.e. any Palaiologos had a right to it. But as the reigning dynasty's emblem it was also the "national" emblem, for lack of alternatives. The eagle, with one or two heads, was associated with the imperial office and the court regardless of reigning dynasty, obviously since Roman times (although we don't really have solid evidence that the double-headed version was used prior to the Palaiologoi). This can be seen from the fact that the Palaiologoi modified the imperial eagle by the addition of their family cipher, i.e. the eagle had a symbolism of its own independent of the dynasty. Constantine  ✍  19:29, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Then shouldn't the Palaeologian eagle be the "main emblem" of the empire rather than the tetragrammic cross? -- Director  ( talk )  20:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No, as I said, the tetragrammic cross was the closest thing to a "national" flag during this period, and the contemporary literary and visual sources treat it as such. The eagle was an imperial symbol, but it was a symbol of the imperial office, not of the state. It is thus not analogous to a flag or coat of arms of a modern state, but rather something akin to a "presidential flag", if you want. Also, bear in mind that the eagle was one of several symbols that the emperors and the imperial family used, although probably the most prominent in Palaiologan times. Constantine  ✍  20:24, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks again. -- Director  ( talk )  20:29, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Re the black-on-gold eagle
A common depiction of a Byzantine flag appears to be a two-headed eagle, black on gold (esp for the Komnenoi). The modern versions are, I assume, based on the flag of the Greek Orthodox Church. It wasn't an imperial flag, I got that, but I wonder if a two-headed eagle, black on gold, has any historical basis whatsoever (from the period of the Byzantine Empire)? Is there any evidence at all of contemporary usage of such an emblem in this period, in any capacity? -- Director  ( talk )  11:19, 22 June 2012 (UTC)


 * IIRC, Serbia is shown as using such a flag in a portolan. Some of the suppedia seem to have shown black eagles, or at least a black outline, but a) this may be due to the artist and b) either way, they are never depicted on a yellow/golden background, but always on red. The black-on-gold motif was usual in the HRE, and from there it was taken over by the Russians (who initially used the golden Byzantine eagle as well). And if I can make an educated guess, it was from them that it came to widely considered as the "Byzantine" flag. In fact, the flag you describe has AFAIK no official status within the Orthodox Church either, but since it is commonly believed to be the "Byzantine flag", it is flown as such. Constantine  ✍  11:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I noticed the similarity with the coa of the Holy Roman emperors. So we never have a yellow/golden background, but we do have black eagles, or eagles with a black outline? The golden eagle, however, would be a more common sight? -- Director  ( talk )  11:48, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Black eagles or black-outline eagles (even single-headed) on red are a possibility, yes, but again, not on flags. The more common version by far would be the golden one. Constantine  ✍  16:35, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Eagle: gold on red, or just gold?
Like the title of the subsection says: is it more accurate to display the gold Palaeologan eagle on a red background, or is the gold eagle itself the emblem? The background of the double-headed eagle is an integral part of the symbol of the HRE emperors (black on gold) - is the red background also integral to the Palaeologan symbol or does it just happen to be the colour of the background of the surface where the golden eagle was emblazoned? -- Director  ( talk )  05:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Definitely the former, i.e. with the red background. Red was pretty much the standard imperial colour since the days of Rome, and if you check the images, in Byz. use it was always on a red surface. Constantine  ✍  08:02, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Excellent, then I didn't make a mistake when I replaced the plain eagle with the eagle on a red background :P. But wasn't Tyrian purple the imperial colour? I've noticed Ancient Rome (pre 5th-century) is usually depicted in red, whereas the Byzantine Empire is usually some shade of purple on maps and such. -- Director  ( talk )  08:25, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, Tyrian purple was the imperial colour, but there were several shades, and red is the colour closest to them. It is no coincidence that in ancient Greek, phoenon (deriving from Phoenicia, where Tyrian purple came from) was the name of "blood-red" colour, nor that this colour was much used on military standards etc, a tradition carried on by the Romans. Constantine  ✍  09:05, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought as much. Just for curiosity's sake, if you had to pick a colour to represent the Byzantine Empire, would it be red (being more commonly used) or Tyrian purple (being more accurate)? -- Director  ( talk )  10:26, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As a personal preference, I'd say _________ (#990024), but I admit I also have a fondness for the aptly named byzantium (color) ;) Constantine  ✍  11:40, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * So that's why I keep seeing that annoying shade of purple.. its actually called "Byzantium" :D. Bah, its unrealistic, Tyrian is probably best imo. -- Director  ( talk )  13:01, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Removal of stylized depictions
I can understand your affinity towards historical accuracy, but this is not an or-or issue. Wikipedia almost always uses stylized SVG images rather than actual photographs of historical coats of arms, and finding such here is the thing the reader will expect. We should provide for him/her a usable, modern-day rendition of these symbols alongside the real historical images they are based on. In effect all I'm saying is we should include the SVG image of the double-headed eagle, which is already in use elsewhere anyway. Provide ot to the reader as a resource. Clearly outlining that its a modern-day rendition. Even were it entirely inaccurate we should include it if its in general use, and its not. While I greately admire the informative nature of this article, there is such a thing as being too purist and OWNy :). -- Director  ( talk )  07:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with "stylized SVG images" or modern renditions, provided they follow the original rather closely and have some information value in representing the original design in a clearer form. But compare this rendering with this original, and then have a look at our Palaiologan original and the svg file. The former pair is the original and its svg rendering, the latter is a free interpretation of the original. In short, the "Church-eagle" version is inaccurate, not in any actual usage outside Wikipedia (and the internet sites which took this image from here) unlike the actual flag of the Greek Orthodox Church on which it is based, and more importantly, in this context, it is redundant from the moment that the original version sits right next to it. It is like opening a book on historical heraldry, and having on one side an original image and on the other "here is a free adaptation of this emblem by some guy in the internet", and which obviously deviates from the former considerably. What's the point? This page was specifically rewritten to debunk the numerous pseudo-Byzantine designs out there, not to add to them, and in order to do this, it is best to show actual, contemporary images. In other words, the images here are not for illustration, but constitute actual, primary sources. If I could find some decent-quality photos of the tetragrammic cross flags from the Catalan atlases, I might replace the svg designs altogether. Since I cannot, for clarity's sake I use the latter. Constantine  ✍  09:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm.. I see your point. But its the best SVG version we've got. -- Director  ( talk )  15:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, we definitely need an accurate SVG image. I posted a request on Commons. Would appreciate your seconding the motion, and adding pointers and/or more accurate primary images for the team. -- Director  ( talk )  17:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Double-Headed Eagle or Double-Headed Goose?
I hate to go against established consensus, but the bird depicted on the authentic Palaiologos flag, not the svg wikipedia ones, is not an eagle, but a goose!

Maybe the goose represents the famous Roman geese? Am I the only one seeing this? 67.206.183.45 (talk) 22:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)