Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in Germany/Archive 2

death rate
We are a bit confused about the discussion regarding the death rate. First this cannot and must not be done the way that many people are doing this by dividing the current deaths by the number of the cases, because the deaths are result of a process with a durance of more than 15 .. 20 days typically and should (if at all) be referred to the number of cases at a former point of time. Allthough this would give even higher numbers the real death rate will be much lower, because in an epidemic the first attack deaths are typically much higher. Futhermore most of the cases are unknown at the moment since detection is delayed and many cases cannot be found. We estimate a number of 30%-60% beeing undetected typically. This means, that death rate will be lowered by ratio 2..3 at least. Also most exposed persons dominate the statistics at the moment. First scientific investigations show a letality of less than 1%. Comparing the currently known values we have to state that many conuntries do not test enough people. M.P. Germany 217.245.88.223 (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * 217.245.88.223, I'm not sure who you mean by 'we', but responding to your post. Yes WP should only include 'official' death rates from established scientific bodies AND should include info as to how they are calculated and any known 'faults' in the calculation process. At present the only reference in this article to death rates is to voice questions about them and to warn that they might go up, not actual figures themselves. I'm not actually a regular on this article, but thought your post above deserved a reply. Pincrete (talk) 14:23, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Pincrete, Hi 217.245, As you point out, the antibody tests seems to show that an higher amount of people was infected. But, as I gather it, it's not fully compatible with the most popular models. 3 of them in particular : the "We all gonna die !" model, the "It's all China fault" model and the least known but highly regarded in certain circles "We gonna sell so much vaccine $_$" model. All the scientific community, and by extension us, are waiting for better antibody tests. Doc James have been doing a good job at 2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic in the meanwhile. It's a great piece of wikipedia to be honest. Iluvalar (talk) 16:04, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * RKI does some research using statistical methods called imputation and now cast to estimate some of the missing information, see their bulletin (german). At least the reporting delays might be compensated by these methods. As for the death rate itself, the press usually uses the current number of deaths compared to the current number of total cases. But this includes a lot of cases still active and would assume that all active cases will recover rather than die. Also in a non-overload western health care system like the german people usually die far later than light cases recover, what explains the still high numbers of daily deaths while daily infections are declining over the last weeks. Anyway, we do not do original research. The best source for original research I know of is above mentioned RKI article, that discusses delay and incomplete data problems (e.g. page 4), but does not state any actual case fatality rate. What could be done in the wikipedia article is to reflect discussion on incomplete data as found in said RKI article. -- Kohraa Mondel (talk) 03:30, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Curfew in Bavaria
The curfew in Bavaria was lifted effective May 6th. --Tscherpownik (talk) 10:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Issue with overview table of cases
The table with the number of cases (by state + total) has header and footer that stay on the screen while scrolling. Is it possible to make footer scroll like the rest of the table does? I'm on a 15 inch laptop and because both header, and footer, and enormous number of footnotes in the footer, are all non-scrolling - I can only see at most 1.5 lines of actual numbers in the table. --Futurix (talk) 12:23, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

With the addition of the latest footnote the table is practically unusable now - less than a single line of data can be seen. --Futurix (talk) 12:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Was there a news report on DW about up to 2 million Germans were exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19? One of the top 5 infected nations in Europe along with France, Italy, Spain and UK; all have similar percentages of their national populations before their lockdowns in March (now lifted) might been asymptomatic infected. The Gangelt-Heinsberg area, the first cluster in Germany after a winter carnival in Feb., had a serological survey of 500 locals have found 13% of them had tested seropositive for SARS-CoV-2. 2605:E000:100D:C571:6DCE:ABEA:BC50:DF93 (talk) 03:31, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Pruning
would it be possible to prune the contents of this article ? currently, its just too much information in a single page. I moved some of the graphs to COVID-19_pandemic_in_Germany/Statistics, and kept only part of them in the main page (and down on the bottom, so they don't break the reading flow). I am looking at the Timeline by state and Government reaction sections, and i would encourage to keep only notable events in this article, and move everything else to its own child pages. --Hagnat (talk) 19:33, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * the timeline was intentionally left out of the main article, since its a huge table that doesn't give a simple view of the current status of the virus in Germany. Can we keep it only on the Statistics page, or do you have a strong reason to keep it on the main ? --Hagnat (talk) 11:53, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your contributions. I believe this information is crucial to this page as it gives an overview to the progress of the pandemic in Germany. I agree, the table is getting rather long so moving it to the end of the main page made sense. However, I strongly recommend keeping it visible on the main page. It is one of the most important elements of the main page to see when and how the virus spreads across different states in Germany. With it being located at the end of the main page, it shouldn't have any negative impact to the reading flow. If there was a way to collapse the table so that people can expand each month by clicking on it (but not by being taken to another page), it would also be acceptable but I do not know if such functionality exists and whether its usability is acceptable across all platforms (desktop, mobile etc.) JackUKElliott (talk) 07:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)


 * this article has 167 kB, the German version has 517 kB (factor 3,1). I live in Germany, but watch the COVID-19-p. in some other countries (i.e. UK and USA) with the same intensity.  I have started today to read this article carefully; until now, I have not found reasons to shorten something (I feel being nor an inclusionist neither an exclusionist). --Neun-x (talk) 15:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
 * this article has 167 kB, the German version has 517 kB (factor 3,1). I live in Germany, but watch the COVID-19-p. in some other countries (i.e. UK and USA) with the same intensity.  I have started today to read this article carefully; until now, I have not found reasons to shorten something (I feel being nor an inclusionist neither an exclusionist). --Neun-x (talk) 15:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Armin-Paul Hampel
The paragraph on Armin Paul Hampel seems misleading. It should at least contain reference to his political affiliation and his typically used name of Armin-Paul, not just Paul. As it stands, I suspect it is an attempt to discredit government policy. (written by an IP 14 April 2020, 14:55)


 * +1 Armin-Paul Hampel is a politican, not a journalist. In de:COVID-19-Pandemie in Deutschland (the article has the triple volume of the english version), Hampel isn't mentioned at all. I take the sentences about Hampel out; if someone wants them in - please deliver reasoning(s) wp:Notability. --Neun-x (talk) 05:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

last sentence of the introduction (done)
is
 * The head of the Robert Koch Institute warned that the German death rate would increase over time.

No source and no date - when did he say that ? the article section Daily mortality rate gives details and shows that it didn't increase during the last 4 weeks.

I propose tro take the quoted sentence out. --Neun-x (talk) 05:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)


 * done --Neun-x (talk) 17:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

"2020 Bavaria coronavirus lockdown" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect 2020 Bavaria coronavirus lockdown. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 9 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 09:07, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

PEIS limits being exceeded
I saw this question being asked over at VPT, and noticed this article is breaking PEIS limits which is causing later templates to not render (notably references). Without doing an analysis of exactly what is contributing to the limit, the most likely culprits are the graphs. As stated, the only good solution is to remove content from this page; whether that is deleted from Wikipedia or moved to another page is up for debate.

We have had a similar discussion on the COVID-19 pandemic talk page, so if anyone would like ideas to solve this problem, please peruse that. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  18:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I have a solution that won't need any content to be removed. Give me a little while to try to set it up. Jackmcbarn (talk) 06:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: I got it under the limit. The problem was that COVID-19 pandemic in Germany was transcluding COVID-19 pandemic in Germany/Statistics, which was in turn transcluding the really big template Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/Germany medical cases. Nested transclusions count multiple times, whereas single-level transclusions only count once. To fix it, I replaced the nested transclusion with two separate single-level transclusions. Jackmcbarn (talk) 07:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Good to hear everything is A-OK now. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  15:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

No Update the last 5 days
The charts did not get updated since August 07. 2020. Is there a specific reason for that ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.223.185.203 (talk) 13:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Government reactions - timeline
In the current version there is a passage concerning hurt police officers during the protests on 01.08.

"August

On 1 August, some 20,000 people protested in Berlin against the anti-pandemic measures. A large majority of participants ignored the mask and physical distancing requirements. In the late afternoon, police ordered demonstrators to leave the scene, on the grounds that organizers had failed to enforce coronavirus hygiene rules. The assembly leader was charged by police for this offence. Several local and federal politicians severely criticized the flouting of coronavirus rules, and considered the protesters' demands to be starkly at odds with the severity of the crisis. Germany had recently logged an uptick in daily coronavirus cases. Police reported that 45 of its officers were injured, with three being hospitalized.[290][291] In a survey by Forsa Institute published on 8 August, a large majority of 91 per cent of respondents rejected demonstrations against coronavirus restrictions such as the one on 1 August.[292] "

- the source for this is cited as DW (No. 290) - this seems to be incorrect. (it is what the source says but not what police reported - the same mistake is repeated in different english sources)

What police actually reported can be found on their HP (in german): https://www.berlin.de/polizei/polizeimeldungen/pressemitteilung.968142.php (Official HP of the state of Berlin - police reports)or https://www.berlin.de/aktuelles/berlin/6250587-958092-reichsflagge-und-hippies-tausende-gegen-.html -  both are summary official reports about the days events that also mention the corona protests.

This report goes on and lists several additional protests on the same day (Berlin usually sees several any given weekend) - there were 2 riots during the evening where about 2500 and 200 people respectively, had gatered for causes not connected to the covid protests. This is also the only part of the police report that actually mentions aggression and multiple hurt police officers on these occasions (and specifically all 3 of the days officers that ended up in hospitals). Only at the end of these reports there is a summary figure of 45 officers hurt that day.

You might want to cross-check that by a german-speaking editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.15.29.253 (talk) 15:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Anti-Vacc section dubious/poorly worded
Greetings,

I just saw the "dubious-discuss" note in the anti-vaccination section, and agree with the assessment that it currently reads a bit strange (although in essence it is correct). Unless someone disagrees, I would tomorrow modify the section based on DW here: https://www.dw.com/en/in-germany-vaccine-fears-spark-conspiracy-theories/a-53419073

The Washington Post article is quite good though, so I will also be including a bit more detail from there. Also, I believe Attila Hildmann did not act in his role as vegan chef here, but rather as a follower of conspiracy theories, so I'm gonna add that. --LordPeterII (talk) 21:53, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, an additional source: https://www.businessinsider.com/germany-becomes-forefront-of-a-global-movement-of-anti-vaxxers-2020-5?r=DE&IR=T --LordPeterII (talk) 21:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Excess mortality
How much is it? It must be very high, because of this dangerous virus from China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.109.65.29 (talk) 06:44, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * For Germany there is none, have a look at statistics page Statistics_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_Germany. For several other countries like Belgium, France, US there has been considerable excess mortality. In case of Belgium mortality rate was twice the long year average in spring. See https://mpidr.shinyapps.io/stmortality/. -- Kohraa Mondel (talk) 11:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Oversized table
I think that giant table listing daily cumulative case numbers for infections and deaths per state (currently maintained in COVID-19 pandemic data/Germany medical cases has become far too big to be readable and is no longer useful. It hasn't been updated for more than a month. Shall we scrap it? We have more informative graphs of the development at Statistics of the COVID-19 pandemic in Germany. Some of them could be moved to the template instead, so that they would also show here on the main COVID-19 pandemic in Germany page if desired. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Table of Covid Cases in Germany
Why is this table now showing the absolute number of daily infections and deaths, as opposed to the percentage increase, as is done for other countries. In a pandemic, where exponential growth of viral transmission is a key peace of information, it is the growth rate, and not the absolute number of persons infected that matter. Jaedglass (talk) 08:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See the template talk. -- Kohraa Mondel (talk) 13:46, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Timeline in Absolute numbers instead of %
Please change the timeline to % instead of absolute numbers. That is how it's done in every other country. 79.250.130.223 (talk) 21:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * ❌ See the discussion on the template talk page: Percentage or new infections?. KRtau16 (talk) 05:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2020
Some days ago the table on "COVID-19 cases in Germany" was changed from showing changes in percentage to absolute numbers. I prefer the percentage numbers. It's more relevant and also fits the tables of all other countries I have seen.

Thanks in advance. B340bf (talk) 07:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * ❌ See above. KRtau16 (talk) 05:45, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Request for comment - cases change metrics
Please take part in discussion here: Project COVID-19, Medical cases charts - change type — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kohraa Mondel (talk • contribs) 23:03, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2021
Date on 'Timeline by state' there is two 2020 02 25. second 2020 02 25 should change to 2020 02 26 1.241.111.106 (talk) 07:27, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I think you're misread something here, the chart looks fine to me, I don't see a repeat of 2020-02-25 (or 2021-02-25 for that matter). Volteer1 (talk) 09:21, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Lead section information
I have reduced the length of the lead section somewhat. I concede it is still a bit long. Should the tag for this issue be reinstated, I would propose moving the paragraph on containment/protection stages to the body of the article. Due to the breadth of topics covered, I feel that five lead section paragraphs are justified, even as the overall length of the article does not come close to its German counterpart at present.--CRau080 (talk) 21:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Vaccination
How many Germans died after being vaccinated? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.248.251.207 (talk) 06:18, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Vaccines ordered?
How many jabs of vaccine did Germany order on itself and how many through the EU vaccine procurement programm?--2A02:810A:11BF:E564:D4F8:D0BC:47C7:B9E9 (talk) 16:19, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Outdated 7-day prevalence map in infobox
Can someone remove the 7-day prevalence map from the infobox? It's not been updated since September last year, so it's not just not adding anything useful, it's actually actively harmful by showing badly outdated information. The fact that the date isn't so obvious unless you look closely doesn't help either. Thanks! 178.3.229.123 (talk) 07:55, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Death and vaccination
How many of the actul deads have been vaccinated twice?


 * Please sign your posts in accordance with WP:SIGNHERE. The question you ask does not specifically pertain to Germany (apart from standards of healthcare), but rather to one key aspect of the efficacy of vaccines. It should thus be treated on a page on vaccines, and I believe it already is.--CRau080 (talk) 20:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

The article is too long now
The readable prose size is 127 kB, which means at least one split is necessary, according to WP:SIZERULE. Any suggestions on what should be split off or at the very least trimmed? Love of Corey (talk) 04:15, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I would be inclined to cut all the subsections on the developments in the 16 individual states first. Substantial trimming is definitely possible elsewhere without major loss, beyond what I did yesterday, and the decision on splitting the article can thus perhaps be held off for a bit longer, say a month or two.--CRau080 (talk) 09:05, 21 August 2021 (UTC)


 * On reconsidering, I think that the early stages of the pandemic could be characterized by the non-diffuse spread of the virus (although this is of course vague, it seems nearly impossible to draw a dividing line to the later diffuse spread), and the federal, decentralized nature of pandemic decision making (which contributed to a plethora of different rules not really discussed in the article, but that is another matter). This suggests a description of the situation in the 16 states be kept, however with a clear and relatively early cut-off date, perhaps in summer 2020. A further advantage (although this may be arguable) is that in this way, much of the current material could be kept; trimming should then still be made, but elsewhere.--CRau080 (talk) 09:42, 28 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Update: I've WP:BOLDly spun off some material into the German government response to the COVID-19 pandemic article. Please try to help me expand it there. Thank you. Love of Corey (talk) 23:38, 27 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I am happy with the solution adopted by Love of Corey. It will require some further work on how to refer (if at all) to decisions by judges, the account of the May 1 protests, and a probably small number of other issues to make the title "German government response to the COVID-19 pandemic" fit.--CRau080 (talk) 20:23, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

change to reporting of daily cases and deaths
(7/11/21) Please return these data to the previous readily comprehensible format used up until today ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.52.207.45 (talk) 23:19, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should be returned. This presentation is garbage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.185.40.12 (talk) 10:12, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Fatality rate
Can we get the fatality rate for the two variants like in the UK? The Indian Delta is only 0.2 against 1.9 for alpha in the UK. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_the_United_Kingdom — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.248.243.103 (talk) 07:19, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 August 2021 and 4 September 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): H1torres.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:28, 17 January 2022 (UTC)