Talk:C minor

This is the talk/discussion page for the "C minor" article.

Natural minor
Hmm... it says in subtext on the edit page that whoever wrote the intro wants it to be b-flat, so that it listed the harmonic minor instead of natural minor. Seeing as this doesn't agree with the picture on the left, and the fact that c minor generally means c Italic textnaturalItalic textminor, I'll go ahead and change it. And would the person who wrote this article (and the f minor article, on that page) please clarify this?71.102.172.40 04:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

You're both right. I changed it from b to b-flat. Oh, and I fixed the f minor page too.71.102.172.40 04:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The infobox also contains B instead of Bflat. I will fix this. Jrobinjapan (talk) 02:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Harmonic minor
I don't have a login account and have never edited wiki but I just wanted to mention something.

The sentence at the top of the article reads "C minor (abbreviated Cm) is a minor scale based on C, consisting of the pitches C, D, E-flat, F, G, A-flat, B and C (harmonic minor scale). Its key signature consists of three flats".

Shouldn't it read "C minor (abbreviated Cm) is a minor scale based on C, consisting of the pitches C, D, E-flat, F, G, A-flat, B-flat and C (harmonic minor scale). Its key signature consists of three flats"?

Note, B-flat is listed as B in the existing sentence giving us only two flats, not the three in the signature.

Since I'm a newbie at this (at editing wiki and at music theory) I'll leave it to the experts to make the change if needed.

The F minor page has this same type of issue so if I'm right whoever edits this might want to look there as well.

Natural/Harmonic minor error?
The intro list the notes of the harmonic minor scale, while the sidebar lists the natural minor scale. Surely this isn't right? C Minor implies the natural minor scale, the harmonic minor should have it's own page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.246.116 (talk) 03:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Be careful when editing!
"B-flat which becomes a B natural in the song because of the raised 7th :)"

There's a grammatical error here -- the clause beginning with "which" should be separated out by commas, parentheses, or dashes. And also, who put a smiley face in an encyclopedia text? No wonder you're not supposed to cite encyclopedia articles...

Also, hypothetically, shouldn't all the articles for the keys have the same form? Some have a graphic of the scale, some just have the key signature, &c. Personally I think they should be standardized. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Realms of Gold (talk • contribs) 06:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

The B flat vs. B natural debate
I know it's been changed in the article already, but since it's still in the comments, I thought I'd just add: It's incorrect to say that B natural belongs in the C minor scale. The whole point is that it doesn't -- that minor scales don't have leading tones. Composers are always putting them in because that's how diatonicism works, but check out any composition with a minor tonal area and you'll find the lowered 7th scale degree everywhere. It's part of what makes composing in the minor key so interesting :) At least until Wagner came along, anyway.The Realms of Gold 06:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Image links
31-May-2007: In 2006/2007, Wikipedia images required both attributes "thumb|250px" to show a caption, as in:

By itself, size "250px" ignores the caption "My picture" (confusing many people), which is considered bad form in computer languages (should warn & be corrected rather than ignore). Just remember to include "thumb" (or "frame") for a caption in an image-link.

Image hints in 2007: Overall, omitting "thumb" is the most common problem.
 * Limit most images to "thumb|300px" to avoid crowded text-wrapping.
 * A small image followed directly by a big image often chops text.
 * To resize larger than the original ("oversizing"), omit "thumb" (oversized images cannot have captions in 2007, yet).
 * Beware "left|thumb" (for "right|"), because left-side images appear immediately to left of the text.
 * Most images (99.99%) should be quick JPEG for rapid display.
 * Avoid resizing PNG images (2007): might become 10x larger resized.

There are many formatting issues in the Wiki software (used worldwide), with a long list of problems to fix, but in the software world, errors often persist, only to be upstaged by a totally radical new software version, rather than just fixing the irritating problems fast. Note that numerous software systems (not just Wiki) have frustrating issues for years. -Wikid77 03:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Other issues

 * [ Discuss other unnamed issues here. -Wikid77 ]

Put back the songs you erased!

Questionable songs
I'm pretty sure Tragedy's refrain is in B minor, not C minor. The verses sound more like D major with some modulation leading into B minor right before the refrain, but at no point is any version I've ever heard in C minor. Also, the link points to the wrong page (it goes to the page about tragedy as a form of drama, not the song), so if it is left in, the link needs to be changed. PiGuy314 (talk) 04:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced?
I find the placement of the "unsourced" tag on the list of classical pieces to be strange. Isn't verifying what key a piece is in easy to do if you look at the score? It seems to me that the printed score for a given piece of classical music is the source that Wikipedia citation standards require us to cite -- am I right? And if I'm right, then the source is already cited here.

I don't know how easy it is to find sheet music for pop songs, so that list may be different. SparsityProblem (talk) 22:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No. The score still requires interpretation to determine a key.  You see a key signature with three flats; is that C minor, Eb major, F dorian?  Does it stay in the same key the whole time?  It either needs a reference to a published article stating the key, or else it's WP:OR. Torc2 (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources for Songs
Add these songs if you can find sources for them: Backstabbers--The O'Jays A Fifth of Beethoven--Walter Murphy and the Big Apple Band A Girl Like You--Edwyn Collins Larger Than Life--The Backstreet Boys That Lady--The Isley Brothers. Also, where did anybody find a source that said Tragedy from the Bee Gees was in c minor? It's actually in b minor. 24.158.8.234 (talk) 03:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Limited Theory Image
The svg file of the "Circle of Fifths" is incomplete. In the European musical tonal system the keys are 15: C with no alterations, 7 with flats (b) and 7 with sharps. the image only gives 13 - this MUST be corrected because it's incomplete. --151.16.140.29 (talk) 23:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

"Lesser used key"?
I find this claim dubious, as well as awkwardly phrased: "C minor is one of the lesser used key signatures in all music today and in the past." Source for this? I have added a citation tag for now but am thinking of deleting it. mcoverdale (talk) 16:50, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've deleted it. Its widespread use in symphonic and solo piano literature refutes this claim in the absence of a source. mcoverdale (talk) 16:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Both J.S. Bach and Mozart, for different reasons, had a particular liking for the three-flat signature and composed quite a lot of music in both E♭ major and C minor. And it would surprise me if they were the only ones. But the offending sentence was removed eight years ago anyway, so now it's a moot question. — Tonymec (talk) 02:14, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Tuning frequency
In C Major the C4 note corresponds to the 440 Hz tuning frequency. Which note in C Minor does? Also other technical details on e.g. how this maps to MIDI note numbers would be useful but is currently missing from the article. Tronic2 (talk) 00:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought 440 Hz was an A (the tuning fork's A, in fact) regardless of which scale you were in? And anyway, you aren't going to re-tune your piano or your organ when modulating from one scale to another, so whatever frequency is an A, or a C, in one particular scale is the same note in every other scale. Tuning differences happen when trying to go back to how music sounded in a certain period, because historically, the tuning fork has been tuned higher and higher over time. IIUC the Baroque composers tuned their A to 435 Hz, at some point it was 440, and now it's sometimes even higher; so some orchestras who play mostly Baroque music tune their A to 435 Hz while orchestras playing music from several different centuries do otherwise. — Tonymec (talk) 02:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The Magis Flute
(It is common for long musical pieces to transpose out of their tonality and finally come back to it.) For me it is in C minor. — Tonymec (talk) 10:10, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Firstly, there are are several thousand bars between the overture and the finale – and yes, I know that all of WAM's mature operas open and end in the same key. So calling the opera "in the key of x" is an oversimplification. Secondly, 3 flats here is E-flat major: E♭–G–B♭ – there is no C in the opening or closing chords of the overture (or the finale), although the introduction of Tamino's 1st number is indeed in C minor. If you have a source saying otherwise, I, and a publisher of the overture and others, are looking forward to reading it.-- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Closing chord of the finale: Flauto I, E♭; Flauto II, G; Oboe, E♭-G; Clarinet in Si♭, noted one tone too high: E♭-G; Fagotto, E♭-G; Cor in Mi♭, noted a minor third too low: E♭-G; Clarion in Mi♭, noted a minor third too low: E♭-G; Timpani in Mi♭-Si♭, in F key with empty signature, I guess noted a minor third too low, E♭; Violino I, E♭-G; Violino II, E♭-G; Viola (in C key) E♭-G; Violoncello e Bassa (in F key) E♭. Neither a B♭ nor a C in them. E♭ and G are part of both E♭ major and C minor perfect chords, but for C minor you'd expect the tonic to be present, and for a "happy ending" a major key would be more "usual". Sorry I jumped to conclusions. — Tonymec (talk) 14:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

"B-sharp minor" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect B-sharp minor. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 31 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 12:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)