Talk:Caganer

Untitled
Seriously? This is like vandalism! Someone needs to take the "joke" reasons down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.102.164 (talk) 01:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Link okay?
The "kakkers" link points to a non-English version of Wikipedia. Is that okay? Wikiwaterboy (talk) 20:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

How long?
Any idea how long this tradition has been in existance? crazyeddie 22:11, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nope no idea. I've lived in Barcelona twice (both times through Christmas) and it is a real tradition that people practice (and I have a caganer on my mantel back home here in the USA.) No one seems to know when or how this or the Tió de Nadal became known.


 * DJKS 22:50, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, what's the earlist that anybody knows about? Some Barecelonan want to ask their grandparents? crazyeddie 04:30, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Really old grandparents :) ... I'll update the article. 68.81.231.127 09:25, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh, poop
These Catalans should be ashamed of themselves! 70.112.180.16 07:44, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh, poop :p 68.81.231.127 09:25, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Barretina/Barratina
Nice work! We have an article barretina for what you spelled barratina. I linked and changed the spelling, but I am not sure which one is correct. Please use either spelling you think is correct. -- Chris 73 Talk 09:35, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. In Catalan "barretina" and "barratina" are pronounced exactly the same. The correct spelling is "barretina." So thanks for the correction!!
 * DJKS 03:38, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Humor
I absolutely love the part about why the tradition remains in existence: This is a perfect example of the type of humor Wikipedia needs more of! --   Phyzome is Tim McCormack 18:22, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)
 * 1) The Caganer, by creating feces, is fertilizing the Earth. Thus, he is considered a symbol of prosperity and luck for the coming year.
 * 2) Some Catalans consider it to be funny.

Explanations, unverifiable speculation
While some may be humourous, the unverifiable speculative reasons given in the “Explanations” section constitute original research or synthesis and unreferenced hearsay. If there are humorous explanations, Wikipedia's role would be to factually report multiple notable publications of the explanation, with a full citation. 150.101.214.82 (talk) 12:40, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

So a wikipedian is somebody who won't laugh at a joke until he's found three references to prove it's actually funny? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.45.63 (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Culture
Well, I am Catalan and I was surprised when seeing this article in the frontpage of Wikipedia. I can't thing of any Nativity scene which misses the Caganer. I've even seen scenes with the Caganer and missing the Shephereds and the Kings. I remember when I was little I was really surprised nowhere else in the world had the same tradition. I've asked my grandmother and she's always known about this tradition and is not aware of its origins. In fact, I don't know why, Catalan culture has always been really related with literally shit. We have a lot of refrains concerning this, and often in popular speech is a quite common topic to speak about, which can be somehow strange, ridiculous or even funny. As said in the article, Tió de Nadal is another example of it.

But the whole thing goes further. We have even poetry about defecating! I can't remember a lot from my Catalan literature but the most important author of Catalan Baroque literature (hope I'm not really wrong) even dedicated a poem to poo, called Himne a la merda translated to English as Hymn to the poo (sorry I can't find anything in the Net). At least, peculiar. I have no problem in telling how to pronounce Caganer, though I don't know how. Any link helping me? -- Sometent 19:02, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Anyone else find this article's tone to be almost in protest of the practice described? I found that to be a little unsettling to find in an encyclopedia entry...


 * Hi, you forgot to add a signature! (In the future, you can just type: ~, User:24.13.122.71.) In answer to your question, I think there are a couple of lines that clearly dance around the subject, but overall it seems fairly respectful. I'd be interested to hear from some native Catalonians on the topic. 68.81.231.127 04:29, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Something that I haven´t found in the article is a reference saying that the figure of the caganer also appears in the Nativity Scenes in other places in Spain. I´m from Andalusia and many people here put it in their scenes. Also the figure is well sold in many shops. Obviously, people don´t use the catalan name but a peculiar translation: "el tio cagando".

Did you know?
No I did not. Thank you Wikipedia. --NoPetrol 18:07, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is fabulous. - Montr&eacute;alais 01:38, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Just found one of these at Amazon and couldn't figure out what it was. Now I know, and now I find it disgustingly odd. Flight Risk (talk) 04:52, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Synchronicity
I had JUST read an article about the controversy concerning using members of the Spanish royal family in such scenes. http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?cg=BreakingNews-Andinothernews&ao=176832 discusses it.

Removed links
I added two links and expanded a bit, but I also removed the embedded links (there was already a link under external links, and a new link I added confirmed 18c), and the following links because they seemed a bit unprofessional: 68.81.231.127 23:26, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Caganer page
 * Our view of Spain

Pronunciation
How do you pronounce Caganer? And would it be patronising to include this at the beginning of the article? Palefire 03:03, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

I'm an American currently living in Barcelona. When I first arrived here 3 years ago and saw my first caganer, I couldn't believe it was for real. But then as I began picking them out in just about every nativity scene I saw around the city, I saw that it was. There are even gift stores that sell limited edition, collection versions of famous people in the caganer pose. There are other variations as well...for example of the shepherd peeing.

As for the pronunciation: ka-ga-neh

--skyboy 00:02, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually it would be pronounced kuh-guh-NAY. In Catalan, the letters "a" and "e" are pronounced the same in unstressed syllables (as an unstressed "uh" sound.) Words ending in "r" are stressed on the final syllable and the "r" is silent. Some Catalans, however, will pronounce unstressed vowels as if they were in a stressed position (e.g., kah-guh-NAY.)

-- DJKS 03:45, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is great -- Last semester, during some "cultural discussion" in a Spanish II course at my college, the professor attempted to explain the significance of the caganer to the class. My classmates and I were all rather incredulous at the idea and since my prof ran out of ways to describe the concept delicately in English, class moved on and most of us forgot about it. -- Until I read the article.

--gordonfreeman 13:49, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The pronunciation in the internation phonetic alphabet is k&#601;-&gamma;&#601;-'ne. Llull 09:49, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Google Ads
This is one time I really wish that Wikipedia had Google Ads - because I kinda want to buy one these things for next years nativitiy scene. crazyeddie 20:48, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Reasons for the Caganer
I can't help feeling a rather major reason for the Caganer has not been included. There was a brilliant article on ship-of-fools.com (since deleted, alas) explaining how the traditional view of the Nativity has become increasingly sanitised, both in presentation and in theology, and the consequent "denial of shit" ("shit" being understood both literally and metaphorically) radically undermines the truth of the Incarnation. So the Caganer is a symbol of the utterly, even grossly, physical aspect of the human condition in which God participates through the Incarnation. I'm not quite sure how to include this (though I might have a try, if no-one else does first). In the mean time, serious respect to whoever it was who made the "unintended" (?!) pun about an "a posteriori explanation" – I laughed so much I kept the neighbours awake. Vilĉjo 01:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that it's a play on the fact that the Christ-child is in the 'manger' - the animal food bin. So if 'manger' is to eat, we cannot ignore the subsequent act which eating entails. One might also consider a metaphor that one who has 'consumed' the truth of Christ is compelled to pass it along - hence the caganer is the first Evangelist! 65.11.167.15 (talk) 06:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

neighbour state
Changed the expression "neighbour state of spain" to "the rest of Spain". Currently Catalunya forms part of the Kingdom of Spain, and therefore part of the Spanish state. The expression "neighbour state" implies the existence of a Catalan state. Whether one views the existence of a Catalan state as positive or negative, one would have to agree that it doesnt exist at the moment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.129.161.22 (talk) 19:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

Other countries
The article says there are German caganers, called "Choleramännchen", "Hinterlader." Being German, having never heard of such a tradition, I searched google and found: nothing. I want to say: Sources needed. Ben T/C 18:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC) More or less goes for the Dutch/ Flemish tradition. As far as I understand the Dutch text on it, it's just that they sell the Catalan figure there too. Which does not make it a tradition over there. Just a translation, which can be added in the sidebar, not in the text itself. --Eezie (talk) 19:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

A possible additional source
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12059969

Caganer in Portugal?
I'm portuguese and I've never seen this figure in my country... Where did the "inspiration" came from to say such thing in the article? What a complete nonsense!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.36.158.7 (talk) 14:33, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. See, , . Kafziel Complaint Department: Please take a number 14:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

This so called tradition does not exist in Portugal. It's not because one person didn't see it that it means it doesn't exist, the same way that it's not because one person has decided to say theysaw it that it suddendly does exist. And certainly it's not because someone decided to say it in Wikipedia that suddendly becomes true. A tradition is intrisically widespread, there is no such tradition in Portugal. Lusitana2013 (talk) 22:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As all of the sources say, it is not as popular in Portugal and Italy, which would explain why you have never heard of it, but it does exist there. Sorry if you don't like that, but it's the truth.
 * Do you know what is inside every person's home in the entire country of Portugal? All of them? I live in New York, but how could I say for sure that something does not exist anywhere in New York? There are millions of people here. I don't know them all.
 * Instead of coming here to say "This does not exist", why not accept that it does exist, and be happy that you have learned something strange and new? Kafziel Complaint Department: Please take a number 22:48, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Capitalization
Is "Caganer" a proper noun (i.e. one to be capitalized) or not? The article itself is wildly inconsistent in this regard, and the sources appear to be as well. I'm entirely torn in my own thinking in this regard. The article should reflect consistent capitalization, though, at least in non-quoted material. Any thoughts? -  Julietdeltalima   (talk)  23:10, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I encountered same problem in article on defecation, which included mention of canager in both upper- and lowercase. Then I clicked on link to this article hoping to clear up this issue, and instead was even more confused. Given that previous discussion of this issue took place a year and a half ago, are we the only two Wiki contributors who think it's important to get something as basic as this resolved in this article? Does anyone else "give a crap"? Kinkyturnip (talk) 16:26, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Small translation question - "fort" does not mean "a lot"
The article currently says this:

"[A] popular Catalan saying for use before a meal is menja bé, caga fort i no tinguis por a la mort! ("Eat well, shit a good deal and don't be afraid of death!")."

The Catalan word fort is a cognate with the English word force, the Spanish fuerte, and originally the Latin fortis. In this saying it is an adverb. The obvious English translation is "shit strongly", but that sounds a bit stilted to my native English-speaking ear. I would say "shit heartily" or "take a hearty shit" reflects the sentiment of the Catalan saying. As a side note, Catalan is not the only language with a saying that embraces eating, pooping, and mortality and symbols of vitality. The link between vitality and defecation used to be very strong in many European cultures, and the use of laxatives (called "cathartics" in English at the time) was felt to be very important to restore vitality in many disease states. Fluoborate (talk) 08:13, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081215171316/http://www.amicsdelcaganer.net/his6.htm to http://www.amicsdelcaganer.net/his6.htm
 * Added tag to http://www.histocat.cat/pdf/pessebre.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121130134017/http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/23/weird-christmas-custom-spot-the-pooping-peasant-figurine/ to http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/23/weird-christmas-custom-spot-the-pooping-peasant-figurine/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081206081335/http://au.truveo.com/Obama-pooper-get-one-this-xmas/id/286101039 to http://au.truveo.com/Obama-pooper-get-one-this-xmas/id/286101039

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"possible translations"
I removed the Dutch "possible translations". This figure isn't a thing in Dutch tradition, so I fail to see why it should have a "possible translation". Googling the terms, I only found a few forums where people linked to this Wikipedia page as proof of some sort. Even the Dutch Wikipedia page uses the Spanish name, and a similar debate was held questioning the purpose of a Dutch translation. "Kakker" is indeed a term in Dutch, but roughly translates to "posh" in a negative way. A direct connection seems dubious. I won't claim there isn't one, but as it stands now, both the English and Dutch articles don't elaborate on that, or even cite any sources or dictionary entries. All that it really amounted to was a (small) list of translations into other languages. If we start doing that without good reasons, we'll end up having lists like that on most articles. Reviewing the German article, it also seems to be devoid of native terms for the figurines. I'll remove the entire section after posting this comment. It's my opinion that if the nátive article doesn't even bother to mention local names for foreign terms, the English article certainly doesn't need to include those. 87.209.236.59 (talk) 09:47, 30 December 2020 (UTC)