Talk:California cuisine

Merge discussion
I'm proposing that California cuisine be merged into this article (California fusion) as they seem to be about the same thing. The reason why I suggest the merger into this article is in order to avoid the obvious confusion with similarly-titled Cuisine of California. Please express your support or oppose opinion below, keeping in mind this is a discussion rather than a vote. Thank you for your participation. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 19:57, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I would not agree with that. "California Cuisine" has origins within what many people recall as a significant social movement that began as long ago as the late-1970s to 1980s, beginning with a gourmet movement and then leading into the American Culinary Revolution of sorts.  It represented a more modern, "nouveau" or eclectic style cuisine. In some ways (not exact, of course), it's similar to the phenomenon of French Nouvelle cuisine.  It has since taken on greater meaning, but California Cuisine should never be merged, because although it started as a trend years ago, this particular regional cuisine was at the forefront, some people probably believing that it lead in part to the overall American Culinary revolution. Indeed, along with newly award wining wines from this state, California had also suddenly become world famous for its culinary scene.  By the way, the reverse of this suggestion is probably true.  California fusion should probably be considered a continued legacy of California Cuisine.  It seems like a simple re-branding or naming of sorts.  Whoever created California fusion seems to have bypassed this article, overlooking its own critiques, then creating another re-interpretation.  I would think that this article, as well as its legacy, has precedent over that one. Ca.papavero (talk) 04:42, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. My own experience dealing with the Food and Drink project is that they have really bad judgment on mergers and redirects.  I support restoring this article and I've added the project tags back, which btw, should have never been removed, once again demonstrating the  bad judgment of the project participants.  I tend to avoid most food-related articles these days because having to deal with members of that project is like getting a root canal, only much worse. Viriditas (talk) 05:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Reply: I can see what you mean. But, I'm a Californian myself, from the Bay Area and I'm old enough to remember the heyday.  I quite comprehend the significance, as well as the (many) shortcomings of this article.  Frankly, I think it can be much better.  Plus, way too much attribution is given to Chez Panisse and Wolfgang Puck.  Same for related articles…. it was even riddled into obscure places like Chinese Chicken Salad, if you can imagine that.  (See my talk comments on that salad page).  I've come across these articles time and again, between California Cuisine, Cuisine of California, (American) Culinary Revolution... Chinese Chicken Salad and so on.  And they're still not right!  They're biased.  Many times ridiculous.  Unfortunately, I think pop culture and assumptions have taken too much priority consideration, over real erudition.  Anyone that's lived here and knows the breadth and significance of this topic (aside form the state itself) would also realize it goes well beyond the few named people.  At that, there's not even mention of Jeremiah Tower!!  Nor of California's wines and so on.  After all, we should also realize that the Judgment of Paris (wine) occurred before, if not at the beginning of this movement, probably giving it a good push.  Back then, it was sort of a just a gourmet trend, before it took on the connotation of a revolution and all that. And that was even before anyone knew of Alice, Wolfgang and Jeremiah!  People like Robert Mondavi et al. actually encouraged many of the new and younger chefs, giving them inspiration and a start.  California's wine — and now its food — was put to world standards, against the likes of French, Italian and so on.  Unfortunately, although it's been over 35 years since this movement began (by my own estimate), I'm thinking all this is still considered contemporary history by most people. Ca.papavero (talk) 05:37, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Support as nom. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 19:57, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Partial support - This should be merged into California cuisine per WP:Common name. California cuisine is is the more well known term. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 03:53, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not enough information Wikipedia is not the place to debate these things with WP:OR. Find a WP:RS which gives definitions, cite the sources, then develop Wikipedia to reflect the best sources. If the best sources distinguish or combine these topics then do the same. A discussion which does not cite sources will not resolve on Wikipedia.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  13:20, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Object Looks like WP:OR. More reliable sources needed. The Banner  talk 23:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Please state what is WP:OR or WP:RS, instead of making generalized statements, citing those WP pages. Explain.Ca.papavero (talk) 04:15, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps too bold
World cuisines have been merging since antiquity, because people enjoy new foods. When SE Asian spices became available in Europe, the cuisine underwent massive changes, as it did when South American food crops were introduced. The ancient Romans fell in love with "garum," a fermented fish sauce, when they discovered the Greeks using it, and so it goes. Although "California Fusion" cuisine is distinctive as a "movement" amongst chefs trying to create exciting menus that bring in customers, it's by no means the "first" such innovation. The traditional American and Canadian Thanksgiving meal is an "American Indian Fusion" cuisine made possible by the introduction of American Indian crops (such as maize and potatoes) and game animals (such as turkeys) to European palates. Lee-Anne (talk) 13:21, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation line, noting readers between "California Cuisine" and "Cuisine of California"; Larger regards, w/ all Nouvelle/New Cuisine
The line atop the page that serves as a disambiguation — such as that between California Cuisine and Cuisine of California — can be better articulated. It currently reads:


 * "This article is about the style of cuisine identified with some famous Californian chefs. For the broader cuisine of California, see Cuisine of California."

There is too much attribution given to famous and/or celebrity chefs. That's for "California Cuisine," and, for that matter, the American Culinary Revolution. Yes, many notable chefs seemingly drove the social movement, wrote many books, opened many restaurants, etc. But, frankly, this movement was not exclusive to high-end restaurants and cookbooks. A new philosophy became adopted throughout the state in all kinds of establishments, as well as with food outside of restaurants, etc. It was also represented by newly awarded California wines, etc. In short, I think a better rephrasing needs to be thought. It's just a working suggestion, but something like:


 * "This article is about the style of nouvelle cuisine that is from California, typical of the American Culinary Revolution. For the broader cuisine of California, see Cuisine of California."

In other words, see how this article differentiate itself from Cuisine of California, like how the American Culinary Revolution differentiates itself from the Cuisine of the United States; or how this reads:


 * "Nouvelle cuisine (French, "new cuisine") is an approach to cooking and food presentation in French cuisine. In contrast to cuisine classique, an older form of haute cuisine, nouvelle cuisine is characterized by lighter, more delicate dishes and an increased emphasis on presentation."

Ca.papavero (talk) 10:10, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

"California" or "Californian" ?
Would Californian cuisine be a preferred title? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:28, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: English 102 Section 4
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