Talk:California roll

bad link
This line "The earliest mention in print of a 'California roll' was in the Los Angeles Times and an Ocala, Florida newspaper on November 25, 1979.[9]" refers to reference 9 which is a book published in 2012. It is entirely wrong as support for a 1979 claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.184.76 (talk) 14:01, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

California roll in Japan
I know that the bolls rolls are popular across the United States and in Asia outside of Japan (especially in South Korea) but is there any reference for how popular it is within Japan?


 * I think that is a next step for this article: to explain its role, popularity (or lack of) in Japan. I actually got the impression (from reading newspaper articles while researching the California roll) that it is one of the few American-type rolls that are made by very traditional chefs; that's certainly been my experience in restaurants in the U.S.  I will try and find more reliable info.  --C S (Talk) 14:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Tojo and the invention of the California roll
I couldn't find any sources for Tojo inventing the roll other than his own claims and some news sources repeating his claims. On the other hand, Tojo seems quite well-known and for inventing a variety of rolls, and the roll is IMHO an inevitable invention, so it's quite possible for various sushi chefs to have come up with this independently at the same time. In any case, given the lack of sources (which others are of course free to add), I've rephrased the relevant passage as "Tojo claims...".

I should add that Manashita Mashita's claim is perhaps not all too strong either, but at least there are some early sources supporting the Los Angeles origin and a couple pinpointing Manashita and his restaurant.

I've also omitted mention of some of Tojo's other rolls, as that is not really appropriate for an article about the California roll. It might be a good idea to reserve that info for an article on Tojo. --C S (Talk) 11:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I live in Vancouver myself. I think I'm going to do a little research and try to find the earliest mention of the "Tojo Maki", while someone from LA researches the "California Roll" and we can see which chef truly invented the dish.  Vancouver had quite a vibrant food culture in the 70s so I assume at least one food critic would have written about it. --Ingoman 04:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed this from the article for now: "Hidekazu Tojo's claim however, is disputed. There is an absence of any reference to such a variety of roll by Mr. Tojo prior to Mr. Manashita's introduction of the roll in the early 1970s. Further, the ingredients used in making a "California Roll" are not indigenous to Vancouver, where Mr. Tojo resided at the time, which further places into question his claims".

I suspect it to be Original Research; I wasn't able to find sources making these points. If reputable sources are cited for the material, it should be put back in. &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I remember reading (but not where) that it was invented by Tojo but in Vancouver. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.236.20 (talk) 03:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Since I first created the article, new sources (including a book) have appeared that seem to firmly establish that Mashita invented the roll in the late 1960s. This is before Tojo even made it out of Japan and came to Vancouver in 1971. The Tojo claim seems to crop up now and again because Tojo tells it to a lot of people, for example, somebody that made some show on the Food Network. Tojo's website lists as support for his claim a Kateigaho magazine article (from 1989) which reportedly cites him as inventor of both the California and BC rolls. But in both those cases, I'm not sure how much fact-checking of his claim they did. It's certainly the case that since 1989 a lot of information has been unearthed about Mashita and the early LA sushi scene. So far the best sources give Mashita as inventor, and there are more than a few people alive that have been interviewed and back this up. So there doesn't appear to be any good reason to believe Tojo. --C S (talk) 01:08, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The way Tojo is featured so prominently at the top of the section (as of this edit) is unnatural.
 * Chronologically, Tokyo Kaikan claims its chef invented California roll in the 1960s, and Tojo didnt even open his restaurant in Canada until 1971, so why start with that? It's just as C S noted.


 * I'm going to move the Tojo claim back at the bottom where it belongs.
 * That was where a couple of Canadian-based IP users initially placed it, as a 1-liner ( 70.68.117.208 here and 162.213.159.84 here ) but theirs got deleted because it was sourced to Tojo's WP:SELFPUB or unsourced. Subsequent edit by Vanowlishere, an WP:SPA account was I blatantly POV though. --Kiyoweap (talk) 11:18, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

I can tell you all that I was eating California Roll in its original futomaki form by the mid-70s in Little Tokyo, Los Angeles. My father was a big fan of Japanese food, and often dined at Tokyo Kaikan. Another favorite place of his was a sushi shop called Matsuno Sushi (sadly long gone) where he and I often had ”Dad & Daughter” dates. The original type of CA roll was part of their standard mix sushi box. I believe it used the surimi 'crab'. It really bothers me that I can no longer get proper California roll anywhere. olef641 03:06, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

It's "Mashita" not "Manashita"
Whatever the original source article was, they got his name wrong.

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/53630?user_name=&query=mashita

One of the comments on the post is from his son.


 * Great. One of the comments also had a link to  which has his correct name and also some further info on the original California roll.  It would be great if somebody went and looked through the Rafu Shimpo newspaper archives for articles on Mashita.  --C S (Talk) 10:42, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember reading (but not where) that it was invented by Tojo but in Vancouver.

Regional variations
I removed the following from the article:
 * In the Philippines, the avocado is replaced with mango and the outer layer of rice is almost always sprinkled with tobiko; it is known as the California Roll. However, such rolls with cucumber instead of mango also exist, commonly known as the Santa Monica Roll.

The popularity of sushi in North American has resulted in an explosion of off-shoots. Numerous inside-out rolls are being invented and popularized. Regional variations feature ingredients common to or representative of the area they are named after.
 * The B.C. roll features B.C. salmon.
 * the Philadelphia roll uses cream cheese as an ingredient.
 * The dynamite roll includes prawn tempura.
 * The rainbow roll features a layer of various sashimi outside of the rice.
 * Other rolls include scallops, spicy tuna, cucumber, avocado, beef or chicken teriyaki, shrimp, cheese (in France), and okra and are usually named after their ingredients.
 * Some rolls are now made with brown rice or even black rice.

This isn't really about the California roll anymore; these aren't "variations" but actually different rolls. It might be worth mentioning its influence on the creation of other rolls. In that case, some of this info should be useful, which is why I've moved it here. --C S (Talk) 10:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

recent edits
I basically reverted most of these recent edits. The most obvious is the part about the California roll not being popular in Japan because avocado is not a usual japanese ingredient. This is just sheer speculation and the given source is completely irrelevant. It's probably wrong too. Sure, avocado is not a classic Japanese ingredient. But the most obvious reason it isn't popular in japan is that well, it's not a Japanese dish. Why would it be popular in Japan? Japanese people don't typically adopt foreign cuisine that is Japan-inspired.

In addition, personal opinions like "remain to be distinctly an American product" are unnecessary and detract from the encyclopedic tone of the article. Please leave such commentaries out of the article. I left in the part about Callifornia roll not being mentioned in Japanese cookbooks, even though I think it assumes the reader is stupid enough to think non-Japanese dishes should be mentioned in Japanese cookbooks. --C S (talk) 01:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * you should try it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.21.47 (talk) 05:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

It's NOT sushi? What?
Notice the first line, "The California roll is a maki-zushi (roll), and is not a kind of sushi roll". maki-zushi is a form of sushi, so it can't be maki-zushi AND not sushi at the same time, can it? I actually think that MAYBE this is a form of subtle vandalism, as people don't usually define something by what it is NOT. Like if I made an article about penicillin and wrote "penicillin is not an opiate".

The other theory is that the person who added that assumes because it's not made with fish (although actually fake crab is made from fish, most people don't realize that however) it's not sushi, but that's not true, sushi doesn't HAVE to have fish in it. I think the article even mentions that.

So I'm going to take out the because I think it's obvious california roll is a kind of sushi. Oh, and I also merged a couple sentences to avoid starting with "but" (yes I know that you CAN start a sentence with it, but people argue over it and it's generally considered "more correct" not to, and this way it's one less thing for people to argue over) and improve the flow of the article. Whoever added that sentence also added two spaces after the period for some reason.

-Indalcecio (talk) 03:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

California Stop
I remember a term "california stop" for getting to a stop sign, and not coming all the way down to zero mph, back in the 60's.

Calling that a "california roll" was probably a later quip by a policeman who had just been to a Japanese restaurant for lunch. 162.205.217.211 (talk) 03:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

First mention in print
I revoked Mariani (2014) Encyclopedia as source and replaced it with Smith (2012).

This is because Mariani staed that an Ocala, Florida newspaper was the first to print "California roll". But actually according to Smith the LA Times Calendar section printed it on the same date, so Mariani's info was rather incomplete. --Kiyoweap (talk) 06:08, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Ken Seusa as inventor
Andrew F. Smith (2012), p. 91 states: "A much more likely claimant to the title of California Roll inventor is Ken Seusa".

This runs counter to the paragraph lead that most food historians regar chef Mashita as inventor. But I'm just going to tamper much with that for now.

Smith's point is Seusa is documented as inventor of "California roll". But the obvious counterargument is Mashita was the first inventor of " maki sushi with crab and avocado". --Kiyoweap (talk) 06:01, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Nori or wrapper
The article didn't seem to mention the nori seaweed before I added it in, but is this something you should assume the reader understands?

The lead says the roll is usually made "inside-out" but just looking at the image, I really doubt the uninitiated reader can deduce that the thin film of nori is rolled up in the inner surface.

I suppose the alternative is to develop uramaki (the Japanese term for the "inside-out") into a short article or a section of its own, instead of the current redirect to Sushi.--Kiyoweap (talk) 05:43, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

most widely accepted view
The citation to claim the  most widely accepted view by food historians attributes the invention to Ichiro Mashita is invalid and I am therfore editing the article to compensate for this inaccuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.102.46.83 (talk) 10:33, 15 November 2017 (UTC)