Talk:Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2/Archive 2

Added Leak Information
Please update with an AP-like news source when available! Iforget2020 (talk) 22:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Leaks are not notable unless commented on by the publisher or developer. Thanks! Fin©™ 17:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That rule is a JOKE. How can we get that changed? It's clearly there because of a misguided notion that not letting people know a game is leaked will somehow prevent illegal downloads. I'm not saying piracy is A-OK by adding INFORMATION, just saying it happens. People should be able to be informed about stuff. A leak of the game is a BIG DEAL, and the publisher keeping quiet about it doesn't magically make the leak less newsworthy. Harry Potter 7's leak would have been magically unimportant if Scholastic hadn't said they were disappointed by it? WRONG. Let's get that changed. How do I get started on making things right? Iforget2020 (talk) 22:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a "BIG DEAL" as every single game is leaked. It only becomes a big deal if something out of the ordinary happens, like it's commented on. Thanks! Fin©™ 23:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Addition of the 'Tactical Nuke'?
Being a huge fan of the series since the beginning I have been all over the web finding information about COD 6 (and YES I will call it Cod 6 because it's the sixth installment in the freaking series!). Firstly, this website is amazing for this kind of stuff.

http://www.mw2blog.com/

Their videos are constantly being removed by Activision because of copy right claims, so you know the info. is good. As I am typing this, I saw a video about 6 hours ago, and it's already been removed by Activision. There needs to be more information on the main page of CoD 6 about kill streak rewards. Here is the full list

3 Kills – UAV 4 Kills – Care Package 4 Kills – Counter UAV 5 Kills – Sentry Gun 5 Kills – Predator Missile 6 Kills – Presicion Airstrike 7 Kills – Harrier Strike 7 Kills – Attack Heli 8 Kills – Emergency Airdrop 9 Kills – Pave Low 9 Kills – Stealth Bomber 11 Kills – Chopper Gunner 11 Kills – AC-130 15 Kills – EMP (electromagnetic pulse) 25 Kills – Tactical Nuke

Source: http://www.mw2blog.com/modern-warfare-2-killstreak-rewards/

YOU GET A TACTICAL FREAKING NUKE!!! THIS SHOULD BE IN THERE!!!

Oh and another thing. There is jack squat for weapons and attachements. This is the FULL list of all related...

Here is a list the final list of weapons that are available in Modern Warfare 2 Multiplayer.

Assault Rifles

- M4A1 - FAMAS - SCAR-H - TAR-21 - FN FAL

- M16A4 - ACR - FN 2000

- AK-47 Sniper Rifles

- Cheytac M-200 Intervention - Barrett .50 cal - WA2000

- M21 EER

Sub-Machine Guns

- MP5K - UMP .45 - TDI Vector

- P90 - Mini Uzi

Machine Pistols

- PP-2000 - G10 - M93 Raffica

-TMP Shotguns

- SPAS 12

- AA-12 - Armsel Striker 12 Guage - Ranger - M1014 - Model 1887

Light/Heavy Machine Guns

- L86 LSW

- RPD - M64 - Aug HBAR

- M240 Grenade/Rocket Launchers

- AT4 HS

- Thumper - Stinger - Javelin - RPG-7 Hand Guns

- USP .45 - Colt .44 Magnum

- M9 - Desert Eagle

Melee

- Combat Knife Equipment

- Frag Grenade - Semtex (Sticky Grenade) - Throwing Knifes

- Tactical Insertion

- Blast Shield

- C4 Gun Attatchments

- Red Dot Sight - Heartbeat Sensor - ACOG - Silencer - EOTech Sight - Thermal Scope - Extended Clip - Master Key / Shotgun - Holographic Sight

- MARS (Multipurpose Aiming Reflex Sight)

Source: http://www.mw2blog.com/confirmed-modern-warfare-2-weapons-list/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by LightBright94 (talk • contribs) 20:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What are you gibbering about? Secondly, Wikipedia doesn't list makes of guns. -- Thejadefalcon Sing your song The bird's seeds 20:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, that's way too much information for this article, wikipedia is not a place for lists of guns, killstreaks, etc. That would be more appropriate in a strategy guide for a game, which of course wikipedia is not a strategy guide. --Mark0528 (talk) 20:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

So called controversy section
I have twice deleted content similar to this:

The game although not yet released has been the subject of some controversy for a number of factors which include the game running at 1024x600 pixels (Infinity Ward is compensating for this by making the game run at 60 frames per second) http://modernwarfare2cod.com/2009/07/30/modern-warfare-2-at-a-sub-hd-600p-resolution/ and a relatively large price hike in the UK http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/weak-pound-forcing-game-prices-up http://au.xbox360.ign.com/articles/100/1004751p1.html

The first reference is not great quality, and the none of them mention any 'controversy'. This is at best WP:OR Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. That's definitely not controversial, more like a list of issues fans have with the game. The pixel count is just a design decision, and it's irrelevant for the purpose of this article what price the game is sold for in one country. Fan complaints do not make controversy. -- Commdor    { Talk }  19:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

editsemiprotected Please add: Infinity Ward has announced that the PC version of the game will not allow for the use of dedicated servers. Instead Infinity Ward plans the unveiling of IWNET to handle all console and PC games. This has caused a controversy with the competitive and modding PC community generating online petitions with 110,000 signatures as of 10-21-2009. The controversy stems from the notion that without dedicated servers there can be no clans, clan servers, clan competition, or modding of the game. Those connecting to a game will only be allowed to connect to those games in their local area, or by those hosted by gamers already on a predefined friends list. Gamers from differing areas or countries won't be able to connect to the same game without significant lag issues, and can only do so if the players already know each other and have entered each other as friends before the game. -- Jerry of Madison 11:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I highly disagree with this addition. While, yes, there's a petition... the people signing it are very uninformed.  We need to wait until the game is released and use the function. IW recently debunked a number of the myths about this new feature. Most people hear "No dedicated servers" and proceed to draw a LOT of conclusions. Gpia7r (talk) 17:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I can give you three examples of games that use the same exact system that they are promoting.
 * 1. Warcraft 3 will be the first. It doesn't use a matchmaking system, but it is not based off of dedicated servers either. The players connect to a master servers of which its purpose is to point users to listen servers connected to that master server. Master servers is pretty much a database of hosted servers, each game has at least one that displays a list of those servers with rooms available. When players pick a "room" they connect to the room's host straight off of his home connection. Everybody's connection to the match is based on how well they can connect to that host. Granted Warcraft 3 can hold about 12 people per match, but it doesn't require a lot of resources to play either. If the host were to leave the room, the match is over, and everyone loses their connection to the match. Game over. It is also modifiable, one of the mods of which spawned the recent game Heroes of Newerth (DotA was the Warcraft 3 mod it was based off of). These maps can be shared with users, and some even add a different game play mode that was never originally released with the game. http://www.hiveworkshop.com to see what I mean.


 * 2. Left 4 Dead is another good example. It has a matchmaking system and dedicated servers, but no server browsing. In order to get to that particular dedicated server of your choice, you would have to type in a console command to force the matchmaking to pick it, be invited to the server, or follow a friend into that server. This is kind of okay mainly because no one is hosting off of their home connection (will get to the listen server part later). However, most people still like to double click their favorite server to join it. Since Left 4 Dead is on Steam, it can use the capabilities to use a server browser, server filter, and server favorites to navigate through the server browser better. However, the game wasn't developed that way.


 * Now suppose you didn't have a dedicated server, but wanted to host your own. Well then you would have to host a listen server. A listen sever means you are a temporary server allowing other players to connect to you. In the same case of Warcraft 3, if the host were to leave, the game is pretty much over, unless the game has a transfer host ability (which a game this new might have, can't remember), but not everyone has the ability to host a game of Left 4 Dead's demand. However, the bad thing about being the host of a listen server, is that your ping will be close to 0, everyone elses will be pretty high (will be discussed in the next example). People with a good cable connection can barely host more than a 4 man Left 4 Dead listen server because of the large latency difference, and demand of the game. In FPS's this much difference in latency affects the game play dramatically because the host is 100ms+ faster than the client(s) actions. That is a 0.1 seconds, which in a competitive environment can mean anything.


 * 3. The final example is Call of Duty: World at War's Cooperative "Nazi Zombie" mode. This is a stock mode with the game. The cooperative mode is all based off of listen servers, but it is based off of a server browser, no random matchmaking. The most they allow you to hold is 4 people, that is it. Why? because they know that no one can hold more than 4 on their own, it is too much for a typical residential connection (Fios is not typical, it is high-end). Again like in Left 4 Dead, the host will have next to nothing ping, and the others will have a substantially larger ping.
 * To show you evidence:
 * http://screenshot.xfire.com/screenshot/natural/3bfe9c150cc63f60c44c754e8d23d5de9588bb0a.png
 * Guess who the host is?


 * I am not making this up. It has been tried over and over, and it has repeatedly failed. What Infinity Ward is explaining is a mixture of all 3 above, but without modification or dedicated servers. There is no other way to connect to a person as a listen server other than a Peer 2 Peer (server-client in this case) connection. Medal of Honor and Farcry 2 have both tried the same thing, and Medal of Honor even patched a dedicated server in afterwards. The multiplayer in both games are pretty much ghost towns now. Dedicated servers are used so 4-64 people can connect to a central location, and have very similar pings, making it an enjoyable game experience. Modding is up to the owner of those servers. Some of the angry PC gamers maybe going about this wrong, but they have a right to be angry and the console people flaming them is not helping any. What Infinity ward is proposing is nothing "new," but a giant leap backwards. Any further back, and you will have to connect by typing in the Direct IP like back in the days of Doom Multiplayer. To say that they are uninformed, when they have witnessed this problem time and time again, is not the right thing to say, and will only infuriate them more. - Hugenhold (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Every one of those examples are completely irrelevent. All three of those are "instanced gaming", in which the round has a beginning and an end. The appealing parts of games like Call of Duty dedicated servers are that they never end.  It's round after round, map changes, on-going combat.  The others don't NEED dedicated servers for that sort of thing. Gpia7r (talk) 15:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Wrong! Yes Warcraft 3 and "Nazi Zombie" of Call of Duty: World at War may not need dedicated servers, but they do show how weak the capacity is without dedicated servers. As for the Left 4 Dead example, it is mainly played on dedicated servers, whether you play the normal 4 player mode or the 4 vs 4 mode (unless you explicitly ask to host off of a listen server). Left 4 Dead and Call of Duty are worse off without dedicated servers than Warcraft 3 would be (as I said, Warcraft 3 does not require as much), which is why you will see the main problem in those two newer games in the examples above. Hugenhold (talk) 02:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Whether or not the petitioners are correct or not, the fact of the matter is that this is actually happening and should be recorded in the article in some sort of section, whatever title you see fit. For example, people are protesting healthcare reform because they think it will kill them, but we don't not report on these people protesting even though they are clearly incorrect about their views. Therefore, it is obvious to me that a few sentences describing this controversy between PC users and Infinity Ward, right or wrong, is obviously needed in this article. Evidence : http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/700131/Morning-HangoverThe-Reaction-To-Infinity-Ward-And-Modern-Warfare-2.html (Once again, this article is used as a reference to prove that this controversy exists.)


 * Also, now I am sure it is pretty clear there is legitimate concern and the now 150,000+ protesters have facts on their side. Also, go down to Hugenhold down below this page to get more evidence... &#124;&#124;FrozenFood&#124;&#124; (talk) 07:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Please provide reliable source(s) supporting the proposed edit.  AJ Cham  17:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've already added two sentences under Development, I think that's enough. Thanks! Fin©™ 19:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a section below dedicated to this issue. - Hugenhold (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Why isnt there a Controversy section? The only things i see on the net is the no dedicated servers. i think this is a very good thing to put in. Reading the article, it looks like IW wrote it and no one can change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cootey (talk • contribs) 15:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As said above, we can't make judgement calls until we experience it for ourselves. It may be the greatest feature ever invented. Too many people hear "no dedicated servers" and freak out. Gpia7r (talk) 15:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact is no dedicated servers, that is a FACT. you do not have write your views on it. it could only be something like " MW2 on pc has no dedicated servers, its uses their own IW.net matchmalking system. There has been uproar in the pc communities because of this" and that is FACT. Wikipedia for me is to tell me all the facts about somthing and they have left a huge one out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cootey (talk • contribs) 15:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The different feature should be mentioned, by all means! But it shouldn't be in a controversy section or reflected negatively until we see it for ourselves. Gpia7r (talk) 15:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You MUST be a corporate shill. It's plainly obvious that we don't need to see anything for ourselves, because it is completely irrelevant. The fact is that there's been a very well-publicized controversy about various things related to the PC version, and it needs to be mentioned in the article. It doesn't matter what you think about the PC version or how accurate pre-release complaints about the PC version have been, because the fact remains that there have been complaints and a lot of people have been vocally unhappy. Left 4 Dead 2's article doesn't try to hide the fact that the game was subjected to a boycott because of (insert reasons here), even though the game hasn't been released yet. Maybe you should go over there and delete the whole section, eh? Bagodix (talk) 12:32, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with that. Dont knock it til you've tried it but the fact is, is that it has caused contrerversy. Lots of people, like me, pre-ordered it and then cancelled it. I wont be buying this game until i have tried a demo of it or got my hands on a pirate copy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cootey (talk • contribs) 16:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's manufactured controversy. Groupthink at it's best. Gpia7r (talk) 17:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Here, let me run your comment through my handy Bullshit-to-English translator: "There's a massive shitstorm surrounding the PC version that has been extensively publicized by many reputable sources? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man, so we shouldn't mention it in the article. Also, I am vigorously deepthroating Infinity Ward's cock so please don't say anything bad about them. After all, Wikipedia's purpose is to be my fanboy soapbox."


 * Please get the fuck out of here. Bagodix (talk) 12:47, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The information about Infinity Ward eliminating dedicated servers is already in the article. That's all we need really for now. The controversy section can wait until the game is out. --Mark0528 (talk) 02:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Some information is now in the article. Once the game is actually available then someone may want to add a controversy section as it appears both a large portion of the gameplay and the modding scene will be affected. A few sites are now covering the controversy (Ars Technica Article) --Kahrn (talk) 23:57, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

"more like a list of issues fans have with the game. The pixel count is just a design decision, and it's irrelevant for the purpose " Seriously man if you play the game the resolution is a very big concern as well as the framerate they limit the game to. It has a large effect on rendering in both SD and HD. This is a very very uneducated statement if I were you I would remove it just to not look like a dult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.140.188 (talk) 07:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, uh-huh. Commdor's long gone from Wikipedia. Secondly, it shows how uneducated you are to say so. In my experience, there is very little detectable difference between Blu-ray or DVD, SD or HD. Halo 3 wasn't high-definition... but nobody knew until Bungie said it wasn't. Some of my favourite games are Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2 and Star Trek: Voyager: Elite Force. Do you have any idea how crap they look nowadays. Stop being such a (and I hesistate to use this term) graphics whore and find out what truly makes a game. Now, try not to "look like a dult (sic)" anymore? -- Thejadefalcon Sing your song The bird's seeds 11:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

No matter what, these need reliable sources, not internet petitions, not forum postings, not someone's opinion, actual WP:RS. Beyond that, please everyone remember this is not a forum but a place to discuss improvements to the article. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, forum posts are acceptable (or so I've been told) if they come from the right people, such as community managers or, better, the developers themselves. However, random people are a no-no. -- Thejadefalcon Sing your song The bird's seeds 12:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Additional: also, internet petitions are acceptable as well based on what the petition is about (see Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott). -- Thejadefalcon Sing your song The bird's seeds 12:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Multiplayer Maps
AfghanGameplay footage available

Derail

Estate

FavelaGameplay footage available

HighriseGameplay footage available

Invasion

Rust —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.200.126 (talk) 21:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC) Quarry

Underpass

Wasteland

Source

Name change help?
I don't understand what the big deal is regarding name changes. All I want is when I type in "MW2" "COD6" or something similar it redirects to the article which is already implememted so why do people want to change the name? --KAPITALIST88 (talk) 00:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

When you type in MW2 or COD6 they both redirect to this article.--Mark0528 (talk) 13:58, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

No Veteran Edition
No information on the Veteran retail package. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.99.171.11 (talk) 15:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Yea...I agree...there is no "veteran edition", there is only three versions available. Regular, Hardened, and Prestige....please remove "veteran edition" from the article.


 * Err... can you try actually reading the freaking article before you say that? It took me two seconds to find the relevant information (which was in exactly the same area).


 * On September 18, the UK retailer GAME announced a Veteran Edition of Modern Warfare 2 exclusively for the UK, it will come with a 12" (30.5 cm) tall statue of "Soap" MacTavish with interchangeable arms and weapons; it also has the same contents as the Hardened Edition.[66] In September 2009, a Veteran Statue Bundle of Modern Warfare 2 was posted on the EBGames website and is available for all platforms.[67]


 * Read before you speak. I've forgotten to done it before and looked like an idiot because of it. Don't join the ranks. -- Thejadefalcon Sing your song The bird's seeds 17:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Name Change?
I know this topic has already been heavily debated upon but after reading them I'm convinced that the article should be renamed to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.

Numerous people have been citing official people in the way they happened to make mention of the game. The official name of the game appears to be Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. They have both of the names listed on the call of duty website (modern warfare 2 & call of duty: modern warfare 2). But seeing as how its part of the call of duty series, and how its the sequel of call of duty 4, why not put the call of duty prefix before it? It would better identify it as a sequel of call of duty 4 and the fact that its part of the call of duty series. It's also written on the box the game comes in. The most probable reason it says Modern Warfare 2 on the discs is probably because maybe they were already printing the discs and halfway through that they decided to change the name but realized it was too late? --Mark0528 (talk) 20:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's marketed as Call of Duty, but I'm fairly sure Infinity Ward considers it Modern Warfare 2. There was a discussion about this ages ago, it's in the talk page archives I'd assume. I don't think "they were already printing the discs" is a reason a company would change a game's name. Thanks! Fin©™ 22:05, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes...I know there has been a discussion on this before, I said that in my post above and I have read it. And your misunderstanding what I said.  I saw some people in previous discussion claim that it should be called Modern Warfare 2 BECAUSE the name of the game on the discs is "Modern Warfare 2".  My point being that the reason the discs say that is because the name change only came a few months ago, possibly when the discs were already being manufactured with the previous name.  And I'm pretty sure the game's name has been officially changed to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.  If one IW staff member calls it "modern warfare 2" it could be out of mere convenience.  Since "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2" is a bit long to say.  The article should be renamed with the call of duty prefix.  And Modern Warfare 2 should be used as stated above.  --Mark0528 (talk) 22:38, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * If you read the discussion and the various sources carefully enough, you would understand that it wasn't a matter of abbreviation for convenience, and it wasn't simply about preferences of individuals. Dancter (talk) 23:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I already read them once, I have re read them to better understand your point. My opinion is unchanged.  Most specifically, you referring to the game discs being labeled as Modern Warfare 2 without the call of duty logo.  Can you answer me why is it called "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2" at the opening to the official call of duty website if it is NOT the official name?--Mark0528 (talk) 23:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I changed it back for the second time because the official call of duty website has the title "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2" as its headline on the front page of their website. Can you get a more official source than that? I don't see why you would revert it back to its previous name when that is in fact incorrect. They added the Call of Duty logo for a reason. It better identifies it with the call of duty series, and as a direct sequel to call of duty 4. The most likely reason Infinity Ward mentions it as "Modern Warfare 2" is because its much easier to say than saying the full name with the call of duty prefix. --Mark0528 (talk) 02:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I fail to understand your repeated emphasis on having read the material, given that you continue to demonstrate an ignorance of some of the content. Why do you persist in the unsupported "easier to say" argument, when multiple editors have cited sources explaining Infinity Ward's stance? Let me be clear: I am open to a page move. You were starting to make a good case, but your comments have since devolved to divination of primary sources and misrepresentation of previous arguments. I don't recall ever arguing on the basis of the game disc labels. I already touched upon somewhat the recent shift on the part of both companies, which wasn't the case back in July. I never ruled out an eventual name change, which I shouldn't have to point out, since you read everything twice. Part of my argument then was that companies do not deliberately avoid making direct statements the way they did just because. Dancter (talk) 17:38, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't recall ever accusing you of arguing on the basis of the game disc labels. I merely stated that people have brought that up in the past as a reason that the official name was Modern Warfare 2 without the prefix.  The game is part of the call of duty franchise.  It should have the call of duty prefix, as it is a sequel to call of duty 4.  --Mark0528 (talk) 18:33, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Most specifically, you referring to the game discs being labeled as Modern Warfare 2 without the call of duty logo." If you meant "you," as in "you all," then it was very poor phrasing, especially after leading off the sentence with "most specifically," which would indicate that what follows is not so broad and general. Dancter (talk) 20:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, I apologize, I just looked at it again for the third time and just realized that that post was from an unregistered user. I saw your signature below it and didnt see the unregistered users signature so I thought it was you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.--Mark0528 (talk) 21:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I mean...to me it seems very obvious that the official name is Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. It says so at the entrance to the call of duty website. http://www.callofduty.com/hub              And there are other links that show that the name has indeed been changed.  http://www.gamespot.com/news/6213177.html
 * http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/consumer/name-change-is-game-changer-for-modern-warfare-2/--Mark0528 (talk) 23:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The gamespot post is from July, we discussed this after then. The third link there is a 404.  If you can find a reliable source that is another matter. Dbrodbeck (talk) 01:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I just said...Why is it called "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2" at the opening to the official call of duty website if its not the official name?--Mark0528 (talk) 02:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Until there is consensus please stop moving the page. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Uhm why not change it back? There need not be consensus if the "consensus" has clearly been proven wrong. I cited my source. I don't see yours?--Mark0528 (talk) 02:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * We have a number of editors that have voiced their opinion based on sources on a number of occasions. So, please wait for consensus.  I would be happy either way, I think procedure ought to be followed is all.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't mind waiting for consensus, but I have already cited my source, which is official. The Call of Duty website includes the call of duty prefix with the Modern Warfare 2 name on their front page.  --Mark0528 (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Disputes over what is "proven" or "wrong" are resolved through building consensus. The Call of Duty website isn't the main site for the game. Your continued focus on this particular line of argument ignores much of the other previous discussion, and how it developed. It called for explicit, authoritative statements from the company in formal releases or reliable secondary sources. Arguing on the basis of the Call of Duty website is almost the same as arguing based on box art or disc labels, which are also official. It proves nothing. It's a shame, actually. You probably could have had my support already had you directed your energies at different approach. Dancter (talk) 17:38, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

It's a shame actually, that your too stubborn to believe your wrong. When the game was announced, yes they referred to it as Modern Warfare 2. But, when the game was changed with the call of duty prefix, most still called it modern warfare 2. It is more convenient to say it without the prefix, as the saying it with the prefix is a bit of a mouthful. As for an official statement :

Infinity Ward's Modern Warfare 2 is the direct sequel to Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. We have focused our attention on Modern Warfare in order to most effectively communicate the fact that this is the first true sequel in the Call of Duty series. Infinity Ward, the original creators of the Call of Duty franchise, has said from the beginning Modern Warfare 2 resides in the Call of Duty universe. This is reflected in the title's package.

They continuously refer to it being the sequel of call of duty 4. It would be appropriate to add the prefix to better identify it as a sequel and that it lies in the call of duty franchise, that is why they re added the prefix. Not only that, but they also announced they were to re add the prefix to the game. --Mark0528 (talk) 18:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't make personal attacks. I'd be against adding the prefix, as as far as I'm concerned, it was only added for marketing reasons, as noted in the quote above. Thanks! Fin©™ 19:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it was added for marketing purposes, but it was added nonetheless. That doesn't change the fact that it IS part of the call of duty franchise, and a sequel of call of duty 4. It would be appropriate to add the prefix for those reasons.  --Mark0528 (talk) 19:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Those reasons were not the ones I was objecting to. Dancter (talk) 20:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As I mentioned back then, the statement was very careful not to state that the name was changed to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, despite the fact that it would've been much simpler to do so. Instead, what was presented were months of amphilogisms coming from both companies. Dancter (talk) 20:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I have found a new article published by Kotaku in their interview of Infinity Ward community manager Robert Bowling. Published September 21, 2009 http://kotaku.com/5364636/one-day-infinity-ward-will-do-something-other-than-call-of-duty "A lot of that mentality went into Modern Warfare 2. That's why it's Modern Warfare 2. It is Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, but you'll never see that in game. We never call it that. It's because we think of this as a new IP. This is our Modern Warfare 2 game. So we are constantly doing new stuff." They prefer to call it Modern Warfare 2, just out of their preference it seems. They even stated the game IS Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. --Mark0528 (talk) 19:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Note the date on the article. Then note the time and content of the original discussion. Before mid-September, there were no such direct admissions. Also note the use of the royal "we," referring to Infinity Ward as a company. Dancter (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I have taken notice of them. I am uncertain if your agreeing with my suggestion to change the name of this article or against it.  --Mark0528 (talk) 21:12, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Name change per WP:COMMONNAME
I'm creating a sub-section here because this section is so cluttered. I'm actually gonna come in and agree with Mark on this one. I think that even if the game is called "Modern Warfare 2" within the circle of its creators, it's quite obvious that it is being marketed as "Call of Duty: Modern Warefare 2". It looks odd to have the Infobox state "Modern Warefare 2" at the top, yet have the image of the game say "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2". I would support renaming the article to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 based on both WP:COMMONNAME and the fact that the actual official packaging states this. &mdash; CIS (talk | stalk) 20:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * WP:COMMONNAME seems perfectly reasonable. My preference for an updated citation would be the Zampella interview at Joystiq. Dancter (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, agreed. Note that in that interview, The Empire Strikes Back is noted as a similar example, and the Wiki article for that movie is Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, even though most of its movie posters omit the "Star Wars" prefix. &mdash; CIS (talk | stalk) 20:42, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your guys support. And Dancter, are you talking about this one? http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/16/interview-modern-warfare-2s-vince-zampella/ --Mark0528 (talk) 21:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't say that I completely agree with you, Mark. Although I see your reasoning, WP:COMMONNAME wants us to use the common name. I believe that the common name in use for this game is Modern Warfare 2, not Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. Most people know it actually as Modern Warfare 2, not with the "Call of Duty" moniker attached to it. If were up to me, I'd keep it the same, but I can't make that decision by myself without starting some kind of edit war. This is what I believe, but I guess I can't stop people from changing it if you reach a consensus to do that. Razr95 (talk) 23:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with mark. The Infinity Ward community manager has stated that while the game is Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, they (IW) never call it that. The games creators choose not to call it that. Even though the official name does include the call of duty prefix. Just as CIS has mentioned with the star wars article, people commonly call it "the empire strikes back" but the official name remains with the star wars episode V prefix. Similarly, the modern warfare 2 game is used in this context, although officially it does include the call of duty prefix. --Kuroi namida xx (talk) 00:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a tough one. I see it called Modern Warfare, for example, on xbox live (downloading trailers etc). I wonder if the common name too is not Modern Warfare. I could be convince, but I am not yet. Dbrodbeck (talk) 00:48, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

CIS and namida seem to correctly explain my point. Maybe in everyday conversation, if you were talking to your friend about it you would call it "modern warfare 2" but the official name would still include the call of duty prefix. That is what they did for the star wars article. --Mark0528 (talk) 01:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How is this even up for debate? The name is "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2", end of story. "Modern Warfare 2" is little more than shorthand (like how many people refer to "Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Sever Stars" as just "Super Mario RPG"). Besides being on the box and the logo, the developer of the game says that is the name, the publisher says that is the name. "Modern Warfare 2" was nothing more than the working name. End of story, the article should be moved back ASAP. MW2 is not the name of the game and is only used when people don't want to say the full name (which is common in games: "Halo", "Vice City", "San Andreas", "Dragon Quest VIII", "Super Mario RPG", etc.). As others have said, the same thing happens with the Star Wars movies (and other movies), fans and sometimes even the producers of something will not always use the full name when referring to something.  TJ   Spyke   22:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that's a fair analogy. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was never announced simply as "San Andreas". The game disc doesn't simply say "San Andreas". Official media doesn't refer to it simply as "San Andreas". A counter-analogy would be the Wario Land games - the first one was billed as a sequel to a previous Super Mario Land game, but subsequent titles weren't. Modern Warfare 2's official website refers to it as exactly that, aside from graphics that indicate its connection to the Call of Duty franchise. In my opinion the evidence that finally seals the name of the game is that Xbox Live's system shows the game's official name as Modern Warfare 2. http://kotaku.com/5373544/looks-like-modern-warfare-2s-gone-gold People playing the final, gold version of the game on XBL have it show up as Modern Warfare 2 on their profiles - NOT as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. This isn't simply a case of contraction for convenience. I reckon that enough evidence can be gathered from the fact that the title ascribed to the game by official media, press releases and now Xbox Live is Modern Warfare 2. Kflester (talk) 14:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. In my opinion, the official name is Modern Warfare 2, with only select references calling it Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Activision pushing the franchise side). Thanks! Fin©™ 14:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with the san andreas analogy being a bad source of reference. But Microsoft's xbox live service wouldn't be an official source for the naming of this game.  Seeing as how microsoft does not own activision nor infinity ward.  Activision owns infinity ward and by that being said what Activision says basically overrides what infinity ward says seeing as how they are the parent company.  And Activision and Infinity Ward have both stated that the official name DOES indeed include the prefix.  The fact is that while people refer to the game as modern warfare 2 that is simply the shorthand form.  Infinity Ward has acknowledged that by even saying that they prefer not to call it that but that the game is called COD: MW2.  I posted this link earlier :     http://kotaku.com/5364636/one-day-infinity-ward-will-do-something-other-than-call-of-duty    --Mark0528 (talk) 19:47, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Microsoft not owning the publisher nor the developer is nothing to do with this - the developers set the IDs for games themselves. Were it called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, the name of the game displayed by the system would indicate this. When the developer, packaging, press material, community, and official site - the only text reference to Call of Duty on MW2's website is to it being a followup to COD4; the Call of Duty logo graphic is otherwise present for purposes of brand association - all refer to it by the same name, it's simple to assume it's the actual title. At any rate, I am certain this issue will be buried once and for all on the game's release date, when people will see their PS3 XMB and 360 dashboard referring to it without the Call of Duty brand. Kflester (talk) 23:31, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, here is final confirmation of the game's title being "Modern Warfare 2", completely devoid of the Call of Duty prefix: http://investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=373355 A press release from Activision, demonstrating that both the publisher AND the developer refer to it as "Modern Warfare 2". I don't see why this is a debate anymore. Kflester (talk) 23:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not the final confirmation. Your reference is invalid.  It was published March 26, 2009.  That was during the initial announcement of the game's name.  Which has subsequently had several press conferences stating that they were to re add the prefix. --Mark0528 (talk) 00:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you please provide a link to a press release confirming the name change? Kflester (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * But of course. Enjoy.   http://kotaku.com/5364636/one-day-infinity-ward-will-do-something-other-than-call-of-duty     --Mark0528 (talk) 00:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * And I only stated the thing with Microsoft because you used it as a crucial part of your reasoning to come to the conclusion that it "finally seals the name of the game". When in fact Microsoft really doesn't have a say in this.  Microsoft cannot name their (IW's) product.  In much the same way you cannot name someone else's child.  --Mark0528 (talk) 00:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * And what about this? |en_US|type:content_games&id:pressmaterial_CODMW2.xml and this?  ӣicҟin \\ talk with me \\ \\\\\\\\  00:24, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what to say to that. It appears the publisher has contradicted itself.  They announced the game would include the call of duty prefix before, yet on their website they have it listed as modern warfare 2.  This only lead's me to believe that the company has made a mistake.  Either when they publicly announced that they were to change the name, or that they simply forgot to update the website with the call of duty prefix.  The game's creators prefer to call it modern warfare 2 on a personal level and acknowledge that it is called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.  I see that you have failed to acknowledge my post just above though?  I also have a legitimate source claiming otherwise.  --Mark0528 (talk) 00:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, if you download the 15 KB factsheet on that first link that says "8" it states otherwise. The company clearly contradicts itself on the official naming.  It has the title of the document as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.  --Mark0528 (talk) 00:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Ur, so going by WP:COMMONNAME, should it be Modern Warfare 2 on its own? I'm not denying that the official official name has the Call of Duty prefix, I'm just saying that if the developers don't include it anywhere in the game, and considering the article is about the game itself, then I don't think that should be the title. Thanks! Fin©™ 22:04, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just read the intro again, I think it's fine as it is ("packaged as Call of Duty etc"), because that's exactly what it is. The game is Modern Warfare 2, but the packaging says Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 . Thanks! Fin©™ 22:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Accordong to wikipedia commonname the name should be easily recognizable by reader and unambiguous. With that said i seem to recall a study that showed that merely having the name Modern Warfare 2 significantly lowered brand awareness, consumers were unaware that the game was indeed part of the call of duty franchise.  It is therefore advisable to add the prefix to make it easily recognizable and unambiguous to readers.  And as for the game discs and in game menu's not showing the prefix, the name change came during mid to late july when the discs for modern warfare 2 were most likely already in production.  While it may not be written on the game discs or in the games programming itself, the company's that made the game have stated that the game includes the call of duty prefix.  --Mark0528 (talk) 22:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I think the title Modern Warfare 2 is "easily recognizable and unambiguous", what are they going to confuse it with? Indeed, the study you refer to said people didn't realise MW2 was the next Call of Duty franchise game, not that they didn't know what MW2 was. No, the game only went gold recently (according to a kotaku post I read somewhere), so the discs are probably only being pressed now. Again, no, the company that made the game doesn't include Call of Duty anywhere, they consider it fresh IP. The company that publishes the game does (but only on the packaging). Thanks! Fin©™ 22:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I also think the title Modern Warfare 2 is "easily recognizable and unambiguous". But that's just me.  It does not, however, appear to be easily recognizable and unambiguous to the average joe which is what that study was highlighting.  They knew it was a first person shooter game yes, but not that it was part of the call of duty franchise.  The company that publishes the game also happens to own the company.  They've stated that the game was to re issue the call of duty name tag for the sake of the franchise and I believe what activision says would most likely override what Infinity Ward says.  --Mark0528 (talk) 23:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

We have already come to agreement that this article is going to be named Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. Someone recently just changed it back to the shorthand form "Modern Warfare 2". I'm going to re add it. --Mark0528 (talk) 23:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned previously, I am happy with the name either way, but I do not see that a consensus had been built for a change in the name. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

File an WP:RM rather than flip-flopping over COD:MW2 and MW2. Cheers, –xenotalk 15:09, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Move protected.

I agree the title should be COD:MW2 and that this is the most common name for this work. Kudos to the first commenter to actually bring some relevant points to the discussion. I was taken aback to see a huge argument on this page with nobody putting for any argument as to the relevance of their claims. Everyone is claiming "this is on the disc" or "this is the official name" without showing how this supports their view. It seems clear to me that the official name is not what this article should be called, but rather it should be called by the name most commonly used for the work. (I would think abbreviations would be of limited use in deciding this as it can be hard to determine what somone thinks the full name is when using a portion of the name for convenience. Someone saying MW2, for example, doesn't necessarily believe that Modern Warfare 2 is the full name anymore than someone referring to a subtitle of a work or the abreviation for such, to differentiate it from other similar works with differing subtitles, believes the subtitle is the full name.) --Δζ (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Angry PC Users Debate
Robert Bowling, also known as Fourzerotwo, who is the community manager of Infinity Ward, head moderator of the Infinity Ward forum, and the person who also "tweets" information about Modern Warfare 2 had a legitimate interview with a Call of Duty based news site, BASHandSlash.

The director's cut version has a length of 70 mins, majority of it talking with Robert Bowling, who at the time is in Amsterdam. Robert Bowling does confirm that there will be no beta for the PC, even though download sites such as File planet were promoting a "beta" version. He also confirms that there will be no delay in the release of the PC version, which would have had the PC version released on November 24th. Then he also discusses about the features of the PC version, of which he mentioned were no dedicated servers, mostly steam integration, using VAC instead of Punkbuster, no modification tools, or mod tools, (sometimes referred to as developer tools, or Dev tools), and everyone will be connected through IW.NET as listen servers. If you play console versions of most games, or the PC Left 4 Dead, this is pretty much the same concept except there will be no hosting server, everyone is connected on a Peer 2 Peer basis. He made another point during the webcast, which also helps another discussion on this talk page, that Modern Warfare 2 is actually called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. Infinity Ward just calls it Modern Warfare 2 as a label within the company, it will not be sold that way.

When he had announced this, thousands of PC gamers did create a commotion about the announcement. The users voiced their opinions on the forum of Infinity Ward, which is the developer corporation of Modern Warfare 2 AND moderated by Robert Bowling who was mentioned before as Fourzerotwo. The first thread reached over 1,200 of legitimate posts before a moderator deleted it because of "flame wars" between console gamers and PC gamers. There is now a new post started with links to an online petition(I know those are not really reliable)which is said to be at about 17,000 signed users, and the article linking to the webcast that had the interview with Robert Bowling.

Usually Robert will tweet about new information, but as mentioned before, he was in Amsterdam at a convention before he had to attend the webcast for the interview. At the moment, I can not look at his twitter account due to time outs to the server. However, his twitter account has been used as a source on this wiki entry under the "title" section.

If you look at the history, I have attempted to make the entry twice, with a better version on the second try. However, there are people deleting the entry entirely claiming that there are no reliable sources.

1. Let me refer you to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Are_web_forums_and_blog_talkbacks_reliable_sources.3F It states that forums moderated by a reliable organization, in this case Infinity Ward, can be considered a reliable source. As stated before, the posts are being moderated by the community manager and the developers of Infinity Ward. The use of the forum as a source was to note the response of the PC fanbase. It had nothing to do with what was actually reported from Robert Bowling.

2. Most of the websites reporting this information come off of the webcast interview with Robert Bowling. The WP:SPS claims that even though majority of the sources are not deemed reliable, there are some occasions where they can be verifiable. All of the interviewers in the webcast are greatly involved with the Call of Duty series, whether they would be a modification expert to the game, or a player who is currently working with Treyarch on making a video stream client for Call of Duty: World at War. Not to mention they are talking to the community manager of Infinity Ward as mentioned before. There were three sources linking to this interview on the entry, one was the original webcast, another was a director's cut of the webcast, and the third was a summary of the interview. Since then a couple of other sites have talked about the webcast as well. As of now, I still can not get onto Robert Bowling's twitter.

Below are links talking about the announcement made by Robert Bowling.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2369799 - Original Webcast http://bashandslash.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=746&Itemid=69 - Director's Cut Webcast http://bashandslash.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=745&Itemid=111 - Summary of Webcast http://www.infinityward.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121918 - First post on Infinity Ward forum which was deleted due to flame wars. http://www.infinityward.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=123824 - New post on Infinity Ward http://www.fragland.net/news/Modern-Warfare-2-gets-crippled-PC-multiplay/21445/ - Fragland.net http://worthplaying.com/article/2009/10/18/news/69454/ - Worthplaying.com http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/18/modern-warfare-2-pc-wont-support-dedicated-servers/ - Joystiq http://www.destructoid.com/mw2-not-delayed-on-pc-will-not-have-dedicated-servers-152335.phtml - Destructoid http://kotaku.com/5384057/new-modern-warfare-matchmaking-service-will-definitely-reshape-pc-community - Kotaku

Discuss if you will. — Hugenhold (talk) 17:26, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I added a sentence based on Joystiq's article. Thanks! Fin©™ 18:13, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The petition that I was talking about earlier has made news on a couple of sites. Even though it is not as legitimate as a real petition, it has still grown faster than any previous online petition toward games. Last night it was at about 700 signed users, now it has hit 35,000. http://kotaku.com/5384364/modern-warfare-2-server-petition--sigh--at-21000-sigs-and-counting - Kotaku with a link to the petition http://news.zergwatch.com/2009/10/18/modern-warfare-2-server-petition-sigh-at-21000-sigs-and-counting-petition/ —Hugenhold (talk) 23:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

It's now at over 55000 Total Signatures. Unsourced rumour that more than half of the PC pre-orders have been cancelled —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.6.20 (talk) 09:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

More sites reporting the petition and PC response. http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,697637/Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-Steam-required-and-no-more-dedicated-servers-or-mods/News/ - PC Games Hardware http://www.gamersnexus.net/component/content/article/47-newsfront1/221-iw-silences-community - Gamers Nexus — Hugenhold (talk) 18:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Gamespy has come out slugging: http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/call-of-duty-6/1036293p1.html The petition is now nearing 100,000 signatures, it's currently at 80,489. --4.248.62.35 (talk) 00:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Post the text about this, it's a legitimate point that has many sources.--125.236.135.167 (talk) 02:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Apparently it has gotten so bad that even MTV.com reported it.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/10/19/lack-of-modern-warfare-2-servers-for-pc-multiplayer-mode-sparks-petition/ -MTV http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25691 - Gamasutra http://www.neoseeker.com/news/12078-modern-warfare-2-loses-dedicated-servers-mod-support/ - Neoseeker http://www.gamedaily.com/games/modern-warfare-2/xbox-360/game-features/lack-of-dedicated-servers-in-modern-warfare-2-pc-causes-massive-petition-signing/ - GameDaily http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/60933 - Fileshack News Section Petition at about 103,000 — Hugenhold (talk) 17:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Two developers and Rob Downing respond. http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2009/10/20/modern-warfare-2-dedicated-server-response.aspx - Game Informer http://www.fourzerotwo.com/?p=745 - 402's Website (Community Manager for Infinity Ward) 110,026 — Hugenhold (talk) 21:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=225744&site=pcg - PC Gamer Editor signs the petition, and encourages others to do so. Hugenhold (talk) 22:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree, should definitely be included in the article as stated above. &#124;&#124;FrozenFood&#124;&#124; (talk) 07:47, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur. The petition is large enough that it represents a sizeable loss of income to IW and Activision should the number be genuine. --Topperfalkon (talk) 20:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Purely speculation.  You have no idea if any of these people would actually follow-through with not buying the game.  You know as well as I do for a game of this calibur, people aren't going to pass it up for a feature they know nothing about.  As I said above, this isn't something that any of these "protesters" can effectively make a call on before the game is released. Gpia7r (talk) 15:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really the point. The point is that a rather large number of people are unhappy with the way the game is designed. So much so that they have started a petition. Which an editor of one of the most well-known PC gaming magazines has signed. Sales or follow-through really have nothing to do with the fact that there is controversey surrounding the PC version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Megapeen (talk • contribs) 22:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

http://kotaku.com/5397149/modern-warfare-2-pc-multiplayer-capped-at-9v9 and http://forums.bestbuy.com/t5/Gaming/Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-Live-Chat-Session-Transcript/td-p/67692- Best Buy interview reveals that PC multiplayer will not be able to hold more than 18 people per "room." It seems that the angry PC consumers had a right to be afraid of this change. 9v9 isn't that bad, but the CoD series is based on rooms of 32-64 people a room. Hugenhold (talk) 22:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested Move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was page moved. I am leaving move protection in place, a move in the opposite direction will require another WP:RM. –xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 15:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Modern Warfare 2 → Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 — - [The Call of duty prefix is part of the official name. Using just Modern Warfare 2 is merely the shorthand form of the game's name. By adding the call of duty prefix it better identifies that the game is in fact part of the call of duty franchise and a direct sequel to call of duty 4. Infinity Ward has clearly stated that the game is in fact COD: MW2 but that they never call it that. http://kotaku.com/5364636/one-day-infinity-ward-will-do-something-other-than-call-of-duty  ] --Mark0528 (talk) 19:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just pointing out for admins reviewing this - there's an ongoing discussion, and previous consensus to keep the current name. Thanks! Fin©™ 22:00, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Read the rest of the discussion - This has been an issue for quite some time, and the current consensus is that Modern Warfare 2 is the official title and not shorthand, as evidenced by the title on the disc, the title on the special editions of the game, the title on the game's website, the title on the game's trailers and other press material and the title it was initially announced with. Kflester (talk) 23:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It has been an issue, but contrary to what Kflester has said a consensus on the currently on going discussion has not yet been met. Note that you state "initially announced with". Are you implying that the game's title has since changed to add the prefix? The special editions of the game may have the modern warfare 2 name on their covers, but for just the plain game for $60 that most will be buying, the game cover states Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. As for the website, the website lists both names, with the intro to the website showing the call of duty prefix. Press material seems to be split calling it both names. http://pc.ign.com/articles/103/1032992p1.html   --Mark0528 (talk) 23:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The BBFC rating of the game says that the game name is "Modern Warfare 2", without the "Call of Duty" prefix. ӣicҟin \\ talk with me \\ \\\\\\\\  23:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The BBFC merely rates the game. They may call it what they want, but the decision on what to name the game comes down to Activision and Infinity Ward.  --Mark0528 (talk) 23:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that the different ratings organizations don't always use the correct name (it's vexxing checking the ESRB site and then having to search to see what game they mean).  TJ   Spyke   04:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong Support The OFFICIAL name is "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2". Both the developer and publisher confirm this. This is an easy decision and one I would be shocked if anyone disagrees (because those people are saying that the people who actually MAKE AND OWN the game are wrong).  TJ   Spyke   04:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support - The game's own package uses it, as well as high-profile sites such as IGN and GS. Really, this shouldn't even be up for discussion, IMO. -- T orsodo g Talk 04:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support - the game's name officially seems to be Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, so the article should bare the same name, with redirects as appropriate. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 07:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support things like this should be called by their full proper name. rdunn  albatross  10:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose - Activision tacked on the CoD prefix to the packaging of the normal edition to raise brand awareness. The name does not feature in the game or any other packaging. Thanks! Fin©™ 10:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Still don't think it's correct, but no longer oppose. Thanks! Fin©™ 12:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Falcon. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - the Activision website simply stats "Modern Warfare 2" as the name. But if the "Call of Duty" prefix was really added back, then the page should be moved to its correct name.  ӣicҟin \\ talk with me \\ \\\\\\\\  11:30, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support - the game is called "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2", that's all there is to it. I don't see the argument here. Gpia7r (talk) 12:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support - Look, it is a Call of Duty game. Rob Downing said in an interview, the same one that leaked info about the PC, that they called it just "Modern Warfare 2" as an inside name. It has nothing to do with what it is named on the box, in game, or in marketing. It is officially called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. What the hell is the problem with that? Like mentioned in the other arguments about the name, it is like taking the Star Wars Episode V out of the Empire Strikes Back. If you consider this to be named as just Modern Warfare 2, you would have to go back to everything else that has a similar prefix and remove it because that is the kind of statement you are making.
 * It's not the kind of statement I'm making anyway - I'm not aware of any other case where a prefix was added to a game by a publisher and subsequently ignored by the developer. And since you mention it, it's actually called Modern Warfare 2 in the game, making no references to Call of Duty. Thanks! Fin©™ 18:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Yea this definently needs to be Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2, I dont see why it isnt already. ~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlefatmonkey (talk • contribs) 01:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support You know, the last nail on the coffin would probably be this link right here, although your required to download this 15 kilobyte Factsheet for the game. It's under acitivions website for the game. And inside the factsheet it has the title as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. http://www.activision.com/index.html#presscenter|en_US|type:content_games&id:pressmaterial_CODMW2.xml--Mark0528 (talk) 21:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support It's as correct as the fact that Wikipedia is called Wikipedia.-- Krazycev   13  21:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support per various points already made. &mdash; CIS (talk | stalk) 21:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support - Official game name is Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, I don´t think we need something more than that to rename this article. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support - Per official name and points made above.-- Taerkast UA ( Talk ) 14:30, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong Oppose - The comic that goes along with this video game doesn't have the CoD prefix in it. The comic is named after the game, so therefore CoD shouldn't be in the title here. 164.107.91.19 (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This article is about the game, not the comic. That means the article is named after the game. The comic (which is Modern Warfare 2: Ghost) is a prequel. The comic has its own article, so it has no bering on the game (which all official sources say includes "Call of Duty" in the name).  TJ   Spyke   18:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is honestly a ridiculously argument. What the comic is called has nothing to do with what the game is called. IGN, GameSpot, GameSpy, 1up, game informer, gamerankings, and metacritic all refer to the game with the CoD prefix. The game is called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. -- T orsodo g Talk 18:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is honestly a weak subject to base your opinion off of. It's the comic book....not the game.  --Mark0528 (talk) 19:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support as per all the support. --SkyWalker (talk) 04:16, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support - Steam handles all PC copies and lists the game as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. --Topperfalkon (talk) 20:12, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support The game is called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 but because it would get annoying to keep saying Call of duty, Call of duty people started to say Modern Warfare 2 and that is its de-facto name --KAPITALIST88 (talk) 06:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Just a question but when does this straw poll end? Is it a set date or till every one gets bored?  ' The Ninja  lemming '  15:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Due to overwhelming support in favor of the move, I expect an administrator shall take action soon. Support appears to almost be unanimous with the exception of a few people who opposed per someone who no longer opposes the move. &mdash; CIS (talk | stalk) 15:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

MW2 Acronym
MW2 redirect should not go here. MW2 has meant MechWarrior2 for 15 years now and people do still actually play MW2. The name of this game is Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2

MW2 should redirect to MechWarrior2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chapel976 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * MechWarrior 2 was viewed 6,374 times last month and Modern Warfare 2 was viewed over 350,000 times. See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 20:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, this game is about to be released and is getting a ton of press. That is probably skewering the results.  TJ   Spyke   14:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don't think that's a good reason. The abbreviation should remain with the original, or go to a disambig page. Think of it this way: You work for a company for 15 years, and you've become known as "JR" (your initials) casually. Some new kid comes in with the same initials, and everyone starts calling him "JR" and goes back to calling you by your name.  Is that fair?
 * I know it's a silly example... but Mech Warrior had it first. Especially being a sequel, it seems more fitting to give the abbreviation to the first game that used it. Either way, this game is still COD:MW2, just like COD:MW, just like COD:WaW.  "MW2" is FAR too loosely attached to this title, and used too casually to make it a redirect. Gpia7r (talk) 14:57, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Our goal is to get readers as quickly as possible to where they want to go. Right now it's clear people typing "MW2" into the search box are most likely looking for Modern Warfare 2. Those that are looking for MechWarrior 2 are only a click away. Disambiguation page is no good, see WP:2DAB. A disambig page would make all of the readers typing MW2 make an extra click, as it stands now, only a relative handful will need to make an extra click to get to MechWarrior 2. I also note that MechWarrior 2 never used the MW2 acronym as a redirect, so the "MechWarrior 2 had it first" argument rings hollow. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 15:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That shut me up. Serves me right for assuming the original person to bring this up knew what they were talking about.  I assumed with how they worded it, it was the redirect up to now. Gpia7r (talk) 15:17, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't sweat it. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 15:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Proprietary server?
IW.net is not a server, it's a matchmaking service. All of the games will be peer to peer, not client/server. Read the first few paragraphs: http://www.edge-online.com/news/infinity-ward-responds-to-100k-strong-modern-warfare-2-pc-petition 67.193.109.219 (talk) 04:23, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

PC version specs
Go to town: http://pc.ign.com/articles/103/1038318p1.html 164.107.91.19 (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry I have added the specs --KAPITALIST88 (talk) 06:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Archive?
Anyone planning on archiving this page soon, before the game is released and it gets flooded here? 164.107.91.19 (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I for one don't know how to do that, I think its best to leave that for an admin. --Mark0528 (talk) 19:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I've set auto-archiving for anything 14d or older. Thanks, –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 19:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

This isn't the sixth installment of the call of duty series
There have been well over 10 games, and the numbering scheme stopped at call of duty four. This game is not called call of duty 6, and it is not the 6th game in the series. The only people who think that are the ones who never played until call of duty 4, and think that there are no other games in the franchise other than 4 and world at war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.93.144 (talk) 18:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you want to be extremely literal, I guess its not the 6th installment. But I think its referring to the 6th major title in the series. There have been various other call of duty titles, but they're more like side titles. They didn't have major releases like cod4, 5, or mw2 as far as I'm aware. --Mark0528 (talk) 19:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes... This is the 6th game. there have been expansions but not more games. Littlefatmonkey (talk) 19:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Even not counting spinoffs, this is the 7th: Call of Duty (PC), Call of Duty: Finest Hour (GCN/XBX/PS2), Call of Duty 2 (XB360/PC), Call of Duty 2: Big Red One (GCN/XBX/PS2), Call of Duty 3 (Wii/XBX360/PS3/PC), Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (XBX360/PS3/PC/NDS), Call of Duty: World at War (Wii/XBX360/PS3), and now Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.
 * The above comment was mine, I forgot to sin. As Falcon said, Finest Hour was a brand new game with new story and characters, it had nothing to do with the PC game.  TJ   Spyke   01:15, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Finest Hour isn't technically another installment. Finest Hour is just the console version of Call of Duty. so, six MAJOR ones, not including big red one and finest hour. and first messenger, you are not counting correctly. Call of Duty (1) Finest Hour (2) CoD 2 (3) CoD 2: Big Red One (4) CoD 3 (5) CoD 4:MW (6) CoD: WaW (7) MW2 (8). not well over ten games. -- Krazycev   13  22:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Finest Hour was a standalone game, it didn't have anything to do with the PC versions, other than the title and setting. Thanks! Fin©™ 22:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and if you count the DS versions of CoD4 and WaW, you get 10. Thanks! Fin©™ 22:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if the handheld versions would count as separate games or not.  TJ   Spyke   01:15, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the cod4 version for wii. so that makes 11 now...--Mark0528 (talk) 02:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Remember, the placeholder name for this game was Call of Duty 6. That's pretty self-explanatory as far as establishing what game this is in the series.164.107.91.209 (talk) 22:31, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's the fourth. COD3 and WAW were just terrible mods. Sceptre (talk) 23:33, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Can everybody stop being silly like this. This is the 6th game that has been fully built and dont involve some games that were simply modifications for seperate consoles. Littlefatmonkey (talk) 02:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Everyone is calling the game CoD6 so who cares? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.20.73 (talk) 23:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Who is calling it CoD6? Everyone's calling it Modern Warfare 2, because that's what it's called. No one is calling it CoD6. It was only a working title. And technically, if it was numbered, it should be CoD5 as there was no fifth prefix. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.166.48 (talk) 15:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Can everyone please stop bringing this subject up? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 15:38, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

COD:FH and COD:BRO were not part of the main series. They were part of a spin-off series for consoles. They were not simply "modifications" on seperate consoles, but used their own engines, had unique storylines, their own cast of characters. But they were not part of the main series proper. Anyone who has actually played the two games would know they had nothing to do with the original COD or COD2. Likewise COD: Roads to Victory for the PSP was also a spinoff title with its own storylines, it was not a modification of any of the pc/console games. Modern Warfare 2 DS was a kind of side story the PC/Console version, and there were some references to events of the console game. WaW DS added one extra storyline for the British, but the Russian and American campaign loosely followed the same campaign locations as the PC/Console version. Albeit with entirely different storylines and characters. Actually that leads to one of the stranger aspects in the COD series in that the raising of the russian flag on the Reichstag has been portrayed three seperate times with different characters, first in the original COD, WaW, and WaW DS.137.222.231.108 (talk) 00:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And I repeat: Can everyone please stop bringing this subject up? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 00:38, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Special Ops Information
I do not think there is enough information on the special ops section of this game. A considerable ammount of information has been released about this and almost none of it is in this article. This information has been released by Infinity Ward themselves and it is on their website as well as http://www.modernwarfare247.com and http://www.gametrailerstv.com I think this article could include alot of this information and it would add to it considerably. I think they mulitplayer section should also be extended by including information from these websites.

Go ahead and add it then. If someone disagrees or the source is invalid or something then someone will clean it up. --Mark0528 (talk) 15:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

ESRB Rating
There is no rating on the ESRB website but there is a rating listed there. What is the source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.2.157 (talk) 18:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

The source is that it says so on the box. --Mark0528 (talk) 19:02, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That is a big source =P  ' The Ninja  lemming '  15:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The source is the official Modern Warfare 2 site. Go there, enter with the AMERICAN language and check the bottom of the page.--PhantomT1412 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC).

Third Person Multiplayer
It is now confirmed that in Multiplayer, Third person matches will be an option.

Can someone add this or unlock the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.67.59 (talk) 13:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Register an account
 * Post to my talk page requesting <tt>'confirmed'</tt> userright
 * Add information to article
 * Profit!
 * =) –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 13:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * =) –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 13:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah...
 * Use a incredibly overused South Park joke.
 * Be an arsehole.
 * Drain all the humor from that joke.
 * Profit! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.67.59 (talk) 23:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You know, it's never a good idea to call an admin an "arsehole." It generally results in annoyed admin. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 00:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the exact same thing, Falcon. This IP probably had no idea that xeno is an admin. IP's don't usually pay attention to this kind of thing. Tsk tsk.-- Krazycev   13  other crap 00:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's never a good idea to call anyone an "arsehole." It generally results in annoyed Jade Falcon, which has been scientificially proven to be worse than annoyed admin. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 00:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's never a good idea to call anyone an "arsehole." It generally results in annoyed Jade Falcon, which has been scientificially proven to be worse than annoyed admin. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 00:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Well....I added the 3rd person game mode information. Under the online section since I thought that seemed the most appropriate section. --Mark0528 (talk) 02:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Leak Controversy
I saw that "leaked" footage showing a controversal opening featuring the player murdering civilians in a terrorist attack on an airport surfaced. The authenticity of the footage hasn't been aknowldged though so I don't know if this information should be on the page as it may just be a hoax. People are mad though. Just thought I should add that. 97.119.213.215 (talk) 07:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)C.J.

The footage was taken off Youtube, so chances are that it's legit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.67.59 (talk) 11:51, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this constitutes encyclopedic information as the game isn't out yet, but I'm just pulling words out of my ass. I'll leave the decision making to someone who is experienced and knowledgable at wiki editing. Just thought I'd post the two articles I read on the starting level. http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/103/1039324p1.html - IGN article on the level http://kotaku.com/5391523/watch-modern-warfare-2-gameplay - Kotaku article containing the video of the starting level —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.125.210.159 (talk) 19:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Everyone fishing to get controversy added to this article needs to lighten up. You have no idea what context the game puts that footage in. Wait for it to release, then wait for the media to swarm on it.  That'll be your addition to the article. Gpia7r (talk) 20:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * When the game comes out there will be a section called Reception. --Mark0528 (talk) 00:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * On a related not heres an article from WAToday about this in Australia. could be helpful to someone building the article Salavat (talk) 07:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Since Activision went and responded to this apparent controversy, I've added a quote to the Marketting and Release section. If you think it fits better elsewhere, go for it :) Gpia7r (talk) 14:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Article is too positive
Seriously, anyone reading this page gets a totally wrong impression regarding some points. Well one impression is right: Just like you forgot to mention the PC version after the first line, everyone forgot about the PC gamers. What isn't right is that this game is all swell, super-duper and cool. There is lots of debate going on about the lack of dedicated servers (german: http://www.pcgames.de/aid,697576/Modern-Warfare-2-Keine-Dedicated-Server-keine-Mods-aber-Steam-ist-Pflicht-Update/PC/News/ ), which are essentially the backbone to lag-free PC gaming for a decade, the resulting uproar and the petitions of which one (http://www.petitionon***e.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?dedis4mw ) has over 170.000 signers so far. Also, the aforementioned "terrorist killing civilians scene" is real, the German wiki article has the info on it already: http://www.vg247.com/2009/10/28/confirmed-leaked-mw2-civilians-vid-as-real-skippable-through-checkpoints/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.158.59.64 (talk) 20:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * (blinks) What are you talking about? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 20:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * About the impression this article makes on a reader. There is no mention of the negativity surrounding the game whatsoever. In plain language: Infinityward fucked the whole PC gamer community up the ass by removing what is the back-bone of online FPS gaming for a decade, dedicated servers. Because either they or most likely Activision is money greedy, the uproar is one of the biggest in the videogame history, yet there is no mention of it whatsoever here. The amount of preorder-cancellations on Amazon & co is huge, the game dropped in Steam from the first places to place 10 by now, behind age-old titles that sell for five bucks. Their forums are full of complaints. The lack of dedicated servers has to be pointed out in this article for sure. - And the controversial "killing civillians" scene is in the game too, so that needs mentioning too. --62.158.59.64 (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It is. Here (end of the section) and here. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 20:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, even though the part on the civillian mission is kept a bit too short for my liking, I was looking for a "critcism" or "controversies" section like in the German article. --62.158.59.64 (talk) 20:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It may come later. It all depends on how many controversies there are and also what strength they are and the amount of sources for them. Come back a week after release and you might find them in a controversy section (maybe with Fox New heading it up :P). -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 21:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Firstly, there’s nothing wrong with an article sounding positive. Secondly, I’m personally a PC gamer (never paid a penny for a console machine), and I understand the impact of missing dedicated server, even RPG games have dedicated servers these days (don’t expect console gamers to understand, you can’t explain how coffee taste like to someone who’s never tasted it.)  Realistically, however, even if all these fans boycutt MW2 and play Valve’s shooters instead, it would still be only worth one or two lines in the article as it is of no significant impact to the game as a whole.  70 thousand electronic signatures don’t mean much when the game is breaking pre-order sales record left and right.  Now… if professional leagues decide to boycott and stay with older version of the game (CoD4) or drop the series altogether BECAUSE of dedicated server, or if the pc fans hacked the games and created dedicated servers for the game on their own, then that combined with the petition may be enough content to warrant an entire section because in that case, the issue is not just a few complaints but grew a life of its own.Ssh83 (talk) 19:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, don't just demand that WE put the section up. You go ahead and do it if you feel it needs to be in this article. --Mark0528 (talk) 21:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It's Infinity Ward's game they can do what ever they like to it and I don't see why PC gamers should get dedicated servers when console gamers don't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karlcodcfc (talk • contribs) 22:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Because, by my understanding, it's impossible for a console to do it (then again, i know little about online multiplayer). Secondly, grow up. Life isn't fair. I don't see why Americans get Dragon Age three days before I do, but I'm not whining about it (well, I am, but not pointlessly on Wikipedia). -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

@Mark: the page is semiprotected so I can't do it and I don't wanna register right now. @Karlcodcfc: If you actually cared about gaming you console users would protest to get dedicated servers yourself instead of malciously grinning about the PC gamers' fate. Dedicated servers are the backbone to lagless play, PCs hardware and net tech are better, so PC can have a better gaming experience, if you don't like it don't bash PC users, buy one yourself or complain to InfinityWard for succumbing to stupid console limits put on them by Microsoft and/or Sony. All fanboyism aside, PC is technically superior and you can't deny that, who prefers what is a matter of choice in the end, but many are rightfully upset at the money greedyness of IW/Activision. --62.158.59.64 (talk) 00:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey! Don't insult me (a console gamer) too! :P To stop a flame war, I'll state here and now, ending the argument forever, that each console does better things than each other and the PC, and the PC is the same in other ways. And I doubt it was a money-grabbing decision by IW, they don't seem the sort.
 * As for not wanting to register, no problem. Post your version of your changes (just the relevant sections, mind you) to the talk page and we'll see what they're like and shove them in if required. If you like, you can borrow some of my userspace to have a full sandbox to play around with the article for a while. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 00:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we should wait for the game to come out before we start judging the gameplay, and peoples' reactions. The "server controversy" may just die when the game comes out. I see nothing in this article to make it biased and I don't see how this article "ignores PC gamers" and I find that this article is way too speculative. 97.119.213.215 (talk) 00:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)C.J.
 * Umm... no? Wikipedia comments on what other people comment about. If they've commented about the gameplay or about the sex doll in a bathroom somewhere, it doesn't matter as long as a) they're reliable and b) it's notable. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:04, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Well Mr. 62.158.59.64, if it's so important go ahead and add it. Go ahead and register, you've probably spent more time on this talk page than it would take to register. If there's a problem with the section you've added someone will either fix it up or remove it depending on whether its relative or notable enough to the article. --Mark0528 (talk) 14:32, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I also noticed this, and added just a single sentence to the appropriate area to note that the game has been critiqued for it's lack of dedicated MP support for PC gamers. I think it's very important to mention this, as it has in fact been a very major development with this particular version of the game - and I was astonished to see it was not already mentioned. In fact, IMO there should be a "Criticisms" section. Starcraftmazter (talk) 14:51, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Then add one. If you can find suitable sources and you can write it well, do it. As it said above "It may come later. It all depends on how many controversies there are and also what strength they are and the amount of sources for them. Come back a week after release and you might find them in a controversy section." -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 15:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Your view is biased. Controversy already exists, hence it should be reported on now. What kind of source can possibly exist for community outrage? I tried to cite the online petition, however wikipedia did not like that link. Starcraftmazter (talk) 08:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:RS. All is revealed there.  Find a source, that is the key.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Think before you speak. Everyone is biased againt something/someone. The difference is, on Wikipedia we try to keep neutral point of view. I have done that very successfully in the past. The reason your source was deleted was probably either because a) your edit was badly written or b) the source was unreliable. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 10:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

The introduction reads like an advertisement, particularly the following, given its lack of any mention of criticism (which is apparently widespread among PC FPS gamers): "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 received highly positive reviews from various gaming websites and has received high praise for its in-depth multiplayer. Upon its release, Modern Warfare 2 sold approximately 4.7 million copies worldwide in 24 hours." The widespread criticism among PC gamers seems like a reasonably verifiable fact (see the Metacritic user review score for PC), regardless of whether you agree with their criticisms or not. To fail to mention in the introduction, while mentioning the statement above, seems disingenuous (particularly if someone only reads the intro, which is certainly possible). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.14.61.49 (talk) 00:56, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

clarify and condense special ops section
I belive that the Special Ops section would be more clear if it were changed to read as follows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liquid wombat (talk • contribs) 01:21, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Modern Warfare 2 will feature a cooperative mode entitled Special Ops, which consists of independent missions similar in design to the "Mile High Club" epilogue mission from Call of Duty 4. These missions will take place in a variety of locations from the campaign mode, but are not related to story of the campaign itself. Special Ops mode can be played alone and also supports two player cooperative play, where it can be played with another player split-screen locally, or online. It includes such scenarios as a snowmobile race between the two players, one player providing airsupport from an AC-130 while the other player conducts operations on the ground, capturing an enemy compound and finaly searching areas for and eliminating 40 or more enemies at a time.

Special Ops is divided into four separate groups of missions which are Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and Delta. Each mission can be played at three dificulty levels which are normal, hardened and veteran. Successfully completing a mission earns the players stars, there are three stars available for each mission, one star for completing it in regular, two for hardened and three for veteran. Once enough stars are earned, more missions can be unlocked. Infinity Ward has stated that the total number of stars 69, leading to the conclusion that there are 23 missions total. At the end of each mission, a statistics screen displays how long the player took to complete the level and how many kills were scored, among other stats.
 * And this means? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at diffs now. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Added permanently. Thanks. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

New cotroversy
Modern warfare 2 is under controversy for the first level which is the player playing as a Russian terrorist gunning down civilians at an air port in Russia. Many people believe you are playing as a C.I.A agent that is under cover but must commit the deed. You are allowed to skip this level if you wish to do so. Also it should be noted that you are never told to shoot the civilians. Another controversy was the battle in D.C which showed D.C, the capital of the United Stated of America under attack and on fire. Many people were offended by this trailer. It also included U.S marines fighting in the white house, the Washington monument, and what seemed to be the treasurer building. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.109.67.206 (talk) 19:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's nothing new at all. It's already in the article. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 19:50, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I personally think that it is worth more of a mention. The passing remark on it doesn't really fit, I'd rather see it in the reception section under controversy. There has been quite a bit of media attention, for example: BBC article Daily Mail Article --Lemminguk
 * Well with the Russian banning of the game until the scene is removed I'd say the section can be bigger. Anakinjmt (talk) 05:51, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

At first is was considered a CONTROVERSY most of the news outlets forgot about it, mainly sense some correctly showed that most mainstream media (like movies) tend to be a lot worse Halofanatic333 (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

rating
from what I have seen from difrent game sellers that MW2 will be R18. is this because of the killing of civilions or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.236.132.220 (talk) 01:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And this has what to do with the price of bullets in Rio? Wikipedia is not a forum. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

It's rated M/R18 not because you kill 'CIVILIANS', rather it is due to the violence and language. Starting with the first Modern Warfare the rating M has been maintained to violence. Halofanatic333 (talk) 15:17, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Bare links
To fix this problem, use Reflinks with the standard settings. ' ' should be replaced with '  ', this will allow the browser to automatically choose the number of columns based on the width of the web browser. Norwood1 (talk) 04:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to have chosen automatically anyway. The computers at my local library have only a single column, but every page I go on on my personal computer has two columns. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 13:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * ' ' allows three columns for wide monitors. Can you please run Reflinks? There are bare links everywhere. It will also correct the formatting, such as citations incorrectly placed before full stops. I cannot edit the article as it is protected. Norwood1 (talk) 01:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll run Reflinks is I get time, bit busy now. As for the protection, simply get ten edits. That gives you access. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:26, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Reflinks takes less than a minute to run... in the time it took you to respond to my comment you could have done it. And I can't get ten edits if I can't edit the article in the first place... Norwood1 (talk) 01:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (shrugs) I've never even heard of reflinks before. Running it now to see what happens, though don't blame me if something fouls up. And why don't you edit on other pages then? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:44, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This what you wanted? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:48, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you. You can remove ' ' now. Adding '  ' will also improve the article. I am simply stopping by to suggest improvements for the article, I see no need to edit other articles just to do that. Norwood1 (talk) 01:56, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. What do the other options in Reflinks do? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 02:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure actually. They all seem to render the same output though... Norwood1 (talk) 02:09, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks anyway. (bookmarks page) By the way, I'm fairly sure talk page edits count and they're rarely if ever protected, so you only need another five edits. Go around to other pages and add relevant comments and then you'll be able to edit pages directly. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 02:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Early release
MW2 is already out in stores in NYC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.15.239.113 (talk) 21:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Source please. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 21:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As usual, even if there is a source, it's not notable unless ActiBlizz/Infinity comments! Thanks! Fin©™ 22:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I would have thought that, if an RS commented about it, it should be considered notable. After all, isn't it a big thing? Or is there a policy about this that no-one's directed me to yet? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Some retailers habitually break street dates (I know it happened with ODST, Halo 3, think Mass Effect etc) so it's not particularly notable unless someone comments on it, though I doubt this is in policy. Just because an RS comments on something doesn't necessarily make it notable - after all, I assume there was some RS coverage of the 360 piracy, but it shouldn't be in the article. Thanks! Fin©™ 22:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thanks for the explanation. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem =) Fin©™ 22:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

i got my copy of it today in England 77.101.119.133 (talk) 22:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Couple of days old, but a Kotaku story states that Activision *did* comment on the breaking of street dates (see here). Is that notable? -132.183.151.213 (talk) 03:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Umm a lot of things need to be changed...
First in special ops it's alpha bravo charlie AND ECHO...Soap IS A PLAYABLE CHARACTER, more than playable he is super important alogside price (yes he is alive).Soap kills sheperd in the end.. This game has been leaked I OWN A LEGIT COPY of it..unfortunately i cant prove any of this...Im just giving you guys a heads up so when the game is released and sources are confirmed. Roach gets killed, YES you play on washington dc.--Nicosanchiz (talk) 05:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Stop screeching. It doesn't matter that much, given the game is out in two days. People will correct all the faults very quickly. Now, if you'd been a bit more polite and hadn't gibbered on about spoilers (I know Wikipedia doesn't give a toss about spoilers, but it'd really appreciate it if the entire game's plot wouldn't appear before it's released, thank you), people might have paid attention. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 16:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

garner?
I am not a native english speaker but isn't that "garner" word just misspelled "gather"? It's in a plot section. --Dekonega (talk) 15:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's in this part: Makarov has publicized Zakhaev's death as an act of martyrdom to garner support for his cause,. I am going to check my dictionary for that now. --Dekonega (talk) 15:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * uhm, nevermind... --Dekonega (talk) 15:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. There was a discussion between native English speakers about the word on the Fable II page some time ago. Not many seem to know how to use it properly. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 16:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Plot Information
The plot information I posted in my edit was taken from Game Anyone, a video game walkthrough website. As they are considered a review site, they received an early copy. So far, every level and cutscene is available for viewing. Chitoryu12 (talk) 19:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think they'd be considered a reliable source. Wait until tomorrow. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 19:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

MW2 takes place 5 years after COD4
Glaring error in the first sentence of the story section. See the video, start from 2:00 to around 2:15. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWSZk2hQ8KI You can wait to edit it tomorrow I guess, but so many people already ahve the game that it shouldn't matter. 164.107.91.145 (talk) 22:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

And yes, I've known about the 5 year gap for longer than that video has been available because some french interview spilled it weeks ago, but I figure you wiki-types like your sources more than trusting a man's good word. The paranoia and second-guessing keep me from wanting to get involved, but when I see errors ilke this, I have to say someting.164.107.91.145 (talk) 22:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I was the one who corrected it from it being set years afterward to immediately afterward. I got that information directly from Infinity Ward's site. I think, unless proven wrong tomorrow, they outclass any other source. Ever. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * When are Modern Warfare and Modern Warfare 2 taking place in the storyline? Just curious...--Rollersox (talk) 02:16, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The last time I can remember, Call of Duty 4's events took place in 2011, so Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 takes place sometime around 2016. Assuming if I'm correct, of course. - ACDC GAMER  05:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Where did you see this 2011 information? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 05:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Before I continue, don't go "OMG U NED A RELYABL SAUCE 4 TAT" because this is just a discussion, not the actual article, and I never said that I was absolutely correct, either. I read in the Call of Duty Wikia's CoD4 article, which suggests that the game takes place sometime in 2010 or 2011. Here, I'll post the quote here, if that's OK, of course:


 * "While not explicitly stated in game, it is implied Call of Duty 4 takes place in early to mid 2011. Proof of this can be found in the opening cutscene of "All Ghillied Up", where Price references Chernobyl and how terrorists use its nuclear fuel even a decade after the disaster. Chernobyl happened in 1986, and thus All Ghillied Up is set in 1996, 10 years after. The mission takes place 15 years prior to the main storyline, thus 2011. However, it has also been argued that the game actually takes place in 2010. Unused code for "All Ghillied Up" (which is included in the mod tools) states that the mission actually takes place in 1995. This would mean that Price was paraphrasing when he said a decade had passed." - ACDC GAMER  06:45, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as it's not in the article, I wasn't planning to. However, that actually seems pretty reliable deduction in that it's logical in it's reasoning and conclusion and supported by the game code. I'm not sure if it's suitable for Wikipedia, but it's reliable enough for me. Thanks. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 06:48, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. Glad to help! Can't wait for the massive reviews of the game to pop up tomorrow... especially IGN's, but I'm puzzled as to why they're posting their review the day the game is coming out? Usually they post it sometime before the game is released. Bah, I'm getting too off-topic. - ACDC GAMER  06:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what to do first. Read OXM's review of the game (and Dragon Age) or just play the damn thing. :P Anyway, as far as I can see, this topic is done, right? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 07:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * So let me get this right...MW2 is set in 2016 or so?--Rollersox (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

&larr; Apparently. I know. It should be called Future Warfare 2. :P -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 20:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised. Why isn't there all sorts of new cool tools and weaponry?--Rollersox (talk) 02:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Because laser weaponry is so overused. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Online section
It's missing some info there, the IWNet automatically assigns a player has the host of the game, this can't be decided by the player and the host can change in the midle of the game, there's a 5s delay when that happens. Since a player is the host, the player being it needs a fast connection to get decent latencies, they speak of 100ms when playing this is quite long when compared with games running on dedicated servers (as low as 30ms), will see how this turns out, it's a fact that lower latencies help. The limit of 9vs9 players probably comes from the use of IWNet, it would be impossible for most players to host a game with 32 players (like in COD4:MW) since the latencies would be trough the roof, let along 64 players like in some other games... Players can not kick out other players during the game, dedicated servers belong very often to clans that set the rules on their server, if a player is found breaking the rules (and not necessarly cheating) they can kick them out, in some games even players can kick other players through a vote, with IWNet both the clans and players will lose this ability.Strumf (talk) 23:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it just not possible for people to add to the bottom of the page any more? The "new section" button does it for you, you know. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 23:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Errors
It's locked, so I can't edit, but there are some errors in this due to Activision locking down anything that could be a spoiler. For example, Soap is indeed a playable character. Would appreciate it if someone with access could edit it. 219.89.39.218 (talk) 10:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * We've known Soap was playable for at least a month. Are you sure it's not in there? Usually when someone says something's not in the article, I point them to it. Re-check, because I'm too busy playing it. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 11:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Reviews PC version have been negative?
It says this under the Reception section:

Reviews[82] and especially user-submitted aggregate scores of the PC version have been negative. Metacritic, IGN, and Amazon.com [83] all have user scores that average below 35%. Critics claim the lack of dedicated servers(and therefore server-side modifications), console commands, support for matches larger than 18 players, and inability to vote to kick players as major reasons. [84]

Edge has been quoted as a 'negative' review? Since when has a 9/10 score been negative? I find this a tad misleading. This paragraph tries the pass off the user scores as 'Critic' scores. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slushbunny (talk • contribs) 19:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree. Tagged with failed verification in the text. GregorB (talk) 21:20, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This probably needs to be cleaned up a bit - There are substantial negative reviews for the PC version. We should probably mention that while the console versions are getting great reviews from professional critics and consumers, there seems to be a unanimous outcry among PC consumers of the game.  Many sources confirm this   along with the terrible reviews shown on the PC rating of the game on Amazon (citation already included in article) - so far 46 reviewers giving it 1.5 stars (average). DR04 (talk) 21:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Dupe citations
In the reception area of the article, there are two duplicate citations. One is for the amazon.com reviews and the other is the edge review for the game. These could be combined together (as they are exactly the same links) and just cited once. 76.28.156.79 (talk) 21:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Citation 23 and 81 are the same as well. 76.28.156.79 (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Update and changes needed,
I am not a member of wikipedia therefore cannot make these changes myself but the article is in need of an update. Someone should skim over it and make appropriate changes. A few specific examples: "Soap McTavish will return as a non-playable character" This is false. You do play as him in some of the missions.

It was also said that Washington is not a confirmed setting, it is, it's in the game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.73.215 (talk) 22:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I can also confirm you play as McTavish. Finding a notable source that might say you play as him might be hard because it isn't until later in the game (and some people might not mention it for fear of spoilers). 76.28.156.79 (talk) 20:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's already in the article. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 20:15, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Sales section?
There is a section on, like, critical reception, but there have been documented sources following how successful the game has been in terms of sales, so should that information be added to the article? For example, it is currently has the most pre-orders of all time at Amazon, as is noted here. -132.183.151.213 (talk) 02:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I have yet to find an official source stating the total sales in preorders and retail sales for modern warfare 2. I saw one on VGChartz but they're not an official source. --Mark0528 (talk) 20:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

hey check this link...http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/200911120700PR_NEWS_USPR_____LA10016.htm...cmon man please add sales link..this is very imp part of the game.. ..also check this http://www.industrygamers.com/news/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-2-sold-an-estimated-7-million-copies-day-one-says-analyst/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.192.164.89 (talk) 12:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The first link is a 404. The second link is an estimation.  Wikipedia won't allow that, it has to be a confirmed number by an official source such as Infinity Ward or someone.  --Mark0528 (talk) 23:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

There should definitely be a Sales section under Marketing and Sales. This game has broken sales records for selling over $310 Million dollars in the first 24 hours of sale. This out did the blockbuster hit The Dark Knight and surpassed the previous record held by Grand Theft Auto IV. COD: MW2 sold 4.7 million copies within the first 24 hours and these profits ($310 Million) and number of units sold (4.7 Million) within the first 24 hours is only in the US and UK alone. This is no including other international sales or the PC version of the game which came out on Steam's online store on November 12, 2009. If this doesn't justify a sales section I don't know what does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kilgannon2113 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, there should be a sales section, and there will be but it's going to have to be cited by an official source. If you can find one please post it and I'll be happy to include the information under a new Sales section.  --Mark0528 (talk) 23:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually I just added a sales section now. --Mark0528 (talk) 23:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Jesus Christ. Look at the biased Reception section
It essentially only focuses on the negatives, and even then that is done poorly. I mean, since when was Amazon's feedback notable? I don't think I've ever seen that in a wikipedia article.

I could go on on how it' a mess - due to a variety of reasons - however I'll just cut it short and announce that it needs work, bad.

If this isn't fixed by tomorrow I'll do it myself Dragongq (talk) 04:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

just because critics are paid to give a game good reviews and people disagree with YOUR opinion of the game doesnt mean its biased. There are several extremely poor user reviews from MANY different sites and NOT just Amazon. (look at Metacritic for example) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.248.134 (talk) 09:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Last I checked there was no proof (or even any stories) suggesting that critics had been paid to give MW2 good reviews. It is quite obvious that the majority of negative user reviews are from PC users who are (understandably, perhaps) annoyed at the lack of dedicated servers, among other things (in fact, one Metacritic user review on the 360 version specifically mentions this). User reviews of note should be placed in the controversy section if absolutely necessary, not the reception section (see also: Spore (2008 video game)). --195.99.172.226 (talk) 10:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Should definately be mentioned that although the game may have been reviewed favorably, IGN, metacritic, gamespot all show terrible user reviews for the game... I'm sorry but if one critic likes the game, i'll most probably take the opinion of 700 other users out there, not to mention there are hundreds more (300 or so more) who agree or disagree with each player review.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seraph2099 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The reason there are all those bad user reviews is because there are a bunch of immature kids out there whining about no dedicated servers, and giving the game a 1/10 based solely on that. Someone from the same crowd no doubt made the section in the Reviews section of the article.Hypershadow647 (talk) 18:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It's worth remembering that publishers give early copies to reviewers who are likely to be favourable. It can sometimes take a few weeks for a more balanced set of reviews to emerge. Let's just consider the review section "in progress" until things settle down a bit. 121.45.214.235 (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Publishers always give out advance copies of games so reviews can be published on the day of release, or even before, this is not notable, nor is it anything new.Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Immature kids? give me a break kids for sure don't know what a dedicated server is or at least most of them don't. I really fail to see what's the problem with giving a negative review to a game that doesn't match our expectations, if a game is good everyone praises it and it's ok to praise if it's bad and we say it's crap for some reason we become a "immature kids out there whining".Strumf (talk) 23:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

"The reason there are all those bad user reviews is because there are a bunch of immature kids out there whining about no dedicated servers, and giving the game a 1/10 based solely on that."

Agreed. User reviews are almost NEVER worth mentioning in Wikipedia articles, it shuold definitely not be included in the article.

Honestly, i can't even count on my left hand how many times I have seen user reviews in a article. Dragongq (talk) 10:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Banned in Russia
I've read several forum posts from supposed Russian gamers stating that the console versions of this game has been banned in Russia and that the PC version was the only one released (With the airport shooting scene edited out of the game entirely) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.248.134 (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Find a source. If you can find one put the information in the article somewhere, as I would think that would be something extremely notable. --Mark0528 (talk) 20:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I found several sites that talk about the game (console versions) being banned and recalled and is to be edited so that there is no more airport shooting level, I'm not big on all the wikipedia rules so if someone else can edit it or put whats appropriate heres the sites I found (last 2 you need to be able to read russian.. or at least google translate it)

http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Hellforge/Console-Versions-of-Modern-Warfare-2-Banned-in-Russia http://www.gotps3.ru/article/vsjo_pravda_call_of_duty_modern_warfare_2_podvergnuta_tsenzure/ http://www.gotps3.ru/article/call_of_duty_modern_warfare_2_zapretjat_v_rossii/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.248.134 (talk) 23:06, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Reception and User Reviews
I seriously believe we should include something, in the reception section, regarding the user response to the title. Currently on Metacritic the PC version has 89%, whilst the user reception sits at 13%. This is unlike anything seen in the video game industry in a very long time and should be included in the article.--LostOverThere (talk) 11:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It is pretty early days to say anything about any sort of trend yet. Wait a while I think. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

What I'd like to understand is why the the user response was included at first in the reception section, and someone has magically deleted it...As for a "trend", it is already established: on all video game website making a distinction between PC and console version, you will see much lower scores for PC than console versions. Look at IGN and Metacritic especially. Garzhul (talk) 15:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Activision/Infinity Ward has enlisted the help of marketing agencies to increase the apparent high scores of the games. Check IGN's score for example at 9.5, yet the user average is 2.2. This has become a common phenomenon, and should be noted for this article. Naturally companies have used these tactics in the past... but the user response to this title in particular in overwhelming. Hell, even this article is locked--locked at the most important time for game sales. Of course the company is happy this page is locked. Anyway Please someone look at what's going on here. "Wait a while," is the exact thing these companies want you to do. 70.213.218.243 (talk) 06:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There's not a shot in hell we'll be accusing them of anything with out multiple reliable sources, and what you are describing is original research, which cannot be included in a Wikipedia article. Sorry, no bueno. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 15:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Reception section
I'm the one who MADE the initial reception section and the controversy on everything. I did not include positive reviews (mainly because of time) and I DO feel it is biased - BUT thats doesnt mean that you remove the information, it merely means much more positive information must be added. For those who are deleting this section, please consider WP:NPOV. It is very notable the reception to the PC version.  Jhonka  18:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I did some cleanup. I implore those critical to simply add more positive information - there is a ton of it out there. The reception main section needs more information.  Jhonka  18:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Plot synopsis begs the question of its resolution
The plot seems incomplete. Does the game really end with a non player character saying "I know where we can hide?" It sounds like either something is missing from the conclusion, or we are left with a cliffhanger setting up a sequel. If we're providing an accurate plot synopsis, we should clarify this.
 * It's a cliffhanger, probably setting up a sequel. However, we can't do anything more than speculate, and we're not allowed to speculate on Wikipedia. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 18:57, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to include speculation. Rather, if the plot does in fact end on this cliffhanger, the synopsis should make it clear that it is in fact a cliffhanger ending.  As is, it looks like whoever did write the synopsis dozed off, had a heart attack, or had "life happen" and failed to finish the synopsis.72.92.126.215 (talk) 21:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, I think this is fine as it is. Thanks for raising the point though. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

PC Version Recpetion
Jhonkaman, I have a serious problem with your edits. You claim that you are making the reception section neutral by removing the ars technica quote that the PC version is like playing a console version on your PC. How is that quote, from a VERY reputable web site, any different than the following statement which is in the lede of the article: "The developer has stated that the game's proprietary IW 4.0 game engine is an improvement over the engine used in its previous game.[16]"? That statement attributed to the game developer, and given top-page prominence, is at least as subjective and biased as the ars technica quote.

To be blunt, much of this article is ultra-positive, and sounds like it was written by a corporate marketing department. There has been a HUGE negative response from the PC gamer community, with the proof in over 200,000 signatures on the petition sent to IW. Please DO NOT CENSOR the negative response to the PC version.

I will revert any attempts to censor the negative response to the PC version.

Dlazzaro (talk) 18:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * First, new threads go at the bottom. Secondly, it's not censoring to try to improve the article. If we were censoring it, it wouldn't even be there. Personally, I think it works better without the ars technica quote. Thirdly, in my opinion, accusing Jhonkaman of doing that seems to be bordering very slightly on a personal attack. Please be civil. All of us are simply trying to improve the article. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 19:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, sorry I got the formatting wrong. I am not threatening Jhonkaman, but it seems extremely problematic to me that this artcle contains dozens of positive quotes and attributions, and that the handful of critical quotes are reverted within minutes of being posted. Will you at least acknowledge that there is a legitimate controversy about the PC version which should be presented on the main page? Frankly, I think that section is far too weak as it is -- over half of it is quoting IW "responses" and rationales. A LOT of PC gamers think this game is a huge step back and not even worth playing or buying. I am not sure that is reflected in the article currently. Dlazzaro (talk) 19:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm the one who CREATED the controversy section. I am merely trying to be fair and balanced and retain a NPOV (which you seem to be having some issues discerning what that is) when presenting IW's response. And that quote you claim is NOT in the article referenced, therefore removed. Also, the encyclopedic value of an opinion of an Ars Technica writer is questionable.    Jhonka  19:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)I understand that PC gamers think there is a problem with the game. Personally, while I'm now getting back into PC gaming with a solid computer and internet connection, I don't know enough about dedicated servers to agree or disagree with them. However, since reliable sources have commented on it constantly following the announcement, I think it should be in there. The section as it stands seems to be a start. It's only natural that it may take a while before it gets better. For a start, most of us (including myself) are too busy playing to really care right now. Secondly, the game's only just come out. It may be that a lot of editors wanted to see for themselves what the PC version was like and then wait for an after-release confirmation of the bad aspects from a reliable source. Just theorising here, but I don't think it's a conspiracy. If it's not gotten better soon, I'll try to wade through the mess of terms I don't get and add to it myself. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 19:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I have been playing PC games since 1993. I have played most major PC shooters since Doom. I am an expert on dedicated servers, and I have managed my own from time to time. The lack of a dedicated server is very very significant for hardcore/competitive PC gamers. There are MULTIPLE positive quotes about the game in the article. In the controversy section, you (or others) have quoted the official IW responses to the criticism. It seems FAIR and NPOV to have at least one representative critical quottation, i.e. the ars technica quote., which by the way, is a very well respected site, at least among PC gamers. Please do not delete it again. I understand NPOV very well. Oh, and sorry I linked to the wrong ars article. I have fixed it. Dlazzaro (talk) 19:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

While Ars Techica may be a reliable news source, Please read WP:quotes

1. Do not use quotes if "the quotation is being used to substitute rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias. This can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided." This is effectively what you seem to be trying to achieve - a negative tone.

2. "quotations should always be presented with an introduction; a stand-alone quotation is not a proper paragraph. Quotations should be put in context and given any necessary explanation."

3. "while quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them." There are so many quotes in this section. I do not believe that quote really adds any value not expressed by previous ones.

Also, please read Edit_warring.  Jhonka  19:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I am reasonably OK with the status of the article now. However -- and please do not take offense -- but I do not think you fully understand the guidelines you posted.

1) I am very familiar with how quotations are used, as well as with the wiki guidelines. The quotation I used was not meant to substitute rhetorical language. Using a quotation to "substitute rhetorical language" means that a writer has an opinion, and would like to present that opinion, but instead uses a quote to make it appear that the writer is merely presenting the opinions of others.

That is not the case. I will admit I have an opinion about this. However, the article, before my edits, did not even mention that there is a major debate about the PC version and its features or lack of features. That is a major major NPOV problem for a video game article. My edits *fixed* the NPOV problem by adding a reasonable amount of information about the debate -- including a representative quote by a critical source. I even included quotations and responses from the game dev IW in attempt to be as NPOV myself as possible!

Frankly, it is you who has repeatedly tried to revert the article in a way that minimizes or hides relevant information (including representative critical quotations) about concerns that apparently >200,000 people have about this game.

2) My quotation was not stand-alone, but rather was part of an entire section discussing concerns that people have about PC version being too similar to the console version and too "locked down."

3) The quotation I added was the ONLY critical quotation about the PC version in the entire article, yet the article contains numerous positive quotations and numerous quotations from the game developer highlighting various features. I did not over use quotations.

Finally, it was you who reverted my edits without even attempting to discuss it or make more minor additions or edits yourself.

Dlazzaro (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

One other thought. Here on wikipedia, there is a difference between an entire article being NPOV vs individual sections being NPOV vs individual paragraphs being NPOV. Having a section of an article which documents the fact that people are unhappy with something does not make an entire article NPOV, nor does it even mean that the individual section is NPOV.

It is normal, and in fact fair, for an article to include positive statements, negative statements, and neutral statements. Just because one section may have more negative statements does not mean that NPOV guidelines are being violated.

Take for example a politician who has been a great civic leader for 20 years. Most of his article talks about his accomplishments and so forth. But one section may document a controversy he had, for exampling, cheating on his wife. That section might contain numerous "negative" sentences, such as a quote from his wife, or another politician, or a leading newspaper. It might contain a statement made by the politician defending himself. But a slight "imbalance" in that one section would not make the entire article broken from an NPOV standpoint. Do you agree?

Here, we have a game that is pretty good and fun and well made. But it has one specific controversy -- related to PC gamers and PC servers. When discussing that controversy, it is natural that several "negative" sentences would be needed, and even a few negative quotes which represent how reputable reviewers/bloggers/etc feel about the matter. Dlazzaro (talk) 20:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * For heaven's sake, I removed ONE quote. That quote itself was NOT introduced, it was just thrown in there. If you had said "Some reviewers have speculated that this may be due to laziness." Except that wikipedia does not allow speculation. Your quote held no encyclopedic value. I even replaced it with another much stronger opinionative quote that related better to the topic and you're still over here on your soapbox.


 * Also, the previous paragraph lists all the criticisms! Just because theyre not quotes strewn with emotion doesnt make them any less important. The point here is NOT to shed a negative light on the game, it is to INFORM the reader that many people out there criticize the decisions made by IW.


 * Finally, you're preaching to the choir here. I'm the one who MADE the whole reception section initially and people are discussing how I didn't include much good about the game and they attempt to remove my critical information instead of simply adding more positive material. And YES everything on wikipedia must have NPOV!


 *  Jhonka  22:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Both of you, calm down. This is only going to make things worse. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Thejadefalcon in that fighting over such matters does not help much. However, I also agree with Jhonka, in that although some quotes themselves may seem negative, the article as a whole seems quite neutral to me. Of course a section entitled "Criticism..." is going to have something negative to say about the game, with quotes relating the more negative thoughts while the plain text just guides the reader through it all. This is no different than if, say, a "Critical Acclaim" section had quite positive quotations and a more positive view in general.

I believe, for example, a quote from a reliable source saying "This game does not expand upon the Call of Duty formula." is quite fine. It is certainly negative, but if placed in a "Criticism" section, should be allowed. However, what I think should not be allowed is if one just states, without a quotation (basically from one's own opinion), "This game is bad, etc.."

On this note, I have edited the entire "Reception" section of the article. I hope my edits make sense. Of course, I respect you all and did not change any of the information needlessly. I think the section looks fine.

Kilkia123 (talk) 00:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Rumors of Biased PC reviews?
Seeing how different the critic review and the user review is. A lot of bloggers have been talking about Infinity Ward paying critics for a good review for the PC. I wonder when was the last time a Metascore was 90, with user score of a 1.3.

I don't think we should include this right now, but we need to wait before some serious blogging begins on this to add this on to this page. 174.3.214.24 (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I think if Infinity Ward were really paying these websites to place a higher score on the PC version, that would make it pretty notable, enough to put it on the article. I personally doubt that's what happened, I think the most likely case is the websites probably gave the game a higher score than it should have gotten. If you can find a reliable source though feel free to add it to the article. --Mark0528 (talk) 22:24, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I would completely agree with you Mark, I myself doubt the fact that Infinity Ward will give money for good reviews as MW2 is one hell of a game. But the User score compared with critic score has given people a reason to question if the reviews are fair. Thus, Rumors have begun ... 174.3.214.24 (talk) 22:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there's an important word there: rumour. Wikipedia doesn't like rumours. Secondly, it's likely simple button spamming by angry PC users. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be foolish to believe the rumors, but I meant that this page could have a sentence or two of how some PC gamers have now begun accusing IW and Critics of giving unfair reviews seeing the differences between Critique scores and Reader's scores.. 174.3.214.24 (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's called a rumor. Find a news article from a reputable source proving this, and you've got yourself a mention in the article. Otherwise it's simply a rumor, doesn't matter who it came from, so jadefalcon would do wisely not to try and stir trouble by speculation.    Jhonka  22:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)Yeah, alternatively, people could grow brains and realise that, while reviews are paid for their reviews, if they had a conflict of interest, they'd lose all their reputation faster than you can blink. Secondly, reviews are merely a person's opinion anyway. And Jhonka, I wasn't saying my comment should go into the article. All I'm saying is that's the only logical explanation that I can see for the variation. No more, no less. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Once again, there is certainly no reputable source claiming that it, nor do i think there is going to be one. There are just lots of angry Bloggers posting it. I am not saying to write down about the reviews being biased. But, something like "Seeing that the difference between Peer Reviews and Critic Reviews, many bloggers have begun to believe that the reviews were unfair". Something which just reports about the angry customers spamming. 174.3.214.24 (talk) 22:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * See WP:Verifiability. also, jadefalcon, there are many logical explanations for the variation, you may feel that that is the most valid one but that's your opinion. Just know that this really isn't the place to tell us that you think we need to "grow brains." It's simply insulting, lets be civil.    Jhonka  23:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I doubt that you, or any other good contributors, come under that brains statement. Secondly, what other explanations can you think of? Because I can't think of any off-hand. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 23:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not a forum. The thread starter discussed an explanation that while may be quite unlikely is still valid from a logical standpoint, but has no verifiability.    Jhonka  23:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I know that. I'm merely curious and was planning to drop the topic when you gave me another explanation anyway. Although, as I said, major reviewers wouldn't be stupid enough to take bribes. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 23:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's your opinion, and also a generalization.    Jhonka  23:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

&larr; I'd comment, but I said I was dropping the subject. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 23:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be the first time game reviewers are pushed to give favorable reviews, Activision spends millions in marketing and everyone wants a bit of that... you just don't bite the hand that feeds you.Strumf (talk) 23:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Is this discussion saying that Amazon is not a reliable source? The reviews submitted there are subjective, of course, But so are the reviews submitted by ign et al. Just because the person writing for ign is a "paid professional" does not mean their subjective review is reliable. I think that 92% of amazon reviews giving this game a 1 star is JUST AS NOTEWORTHY as the opinion of one guy who works at IGN. If wikipedia is about objectivity, then these figures from Amazon are VERY important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.150.74.218 (talk) 02:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we've actually come to a consensus on that, but valid point nonetheless.    Jhonka  02:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Towards the original topic, I believe any rumors of 'bribes' should not be included. Now to the more current discussion (and this is all my opinion of course)... Such rumors of bribing and the extremely low computer USER scores are quite biased. I'm sorry, but it seems quite obvious to me that many PC users are very disappointed about the multiplayer aspect of the game and thus are just angrily boycotting and refuting this game. If you haven't noticed, most of the same people who are now degrading the game were once salivating over it before the multiplayer change announcement.

While I would normally think Amazon user reviews to be quite helpful (I myself viewing them a couple of times for other objects), I believe this is a different case. If you actually read the reviews, you can see the major bias showing up from most of the reviews:

"Do not buy this game. It is a total waste of your hard earned money. [...] Everything that makes this game a PC game is missing."

"Dedicated servers removed -- don't even get me started; I'm sure you've heard of the petition which is nearing 200,000 signatures to re-include dedicated servers. We're left with a terrible online experience."

"Business schools should take note because this would make a wonderful case study on how a company has ruined one of the most anticipated entertainment product in such a short amount of time. MW2 was literally a license to print money for Activison/IW. With such a terrible management decision"

... etc..

While paid professionals and their reviews may not necessarily be "reliable," they are indeed more reliable than biased user reviews that basically flame the "terrible" (I disagree) multiplayer and assume that the game as a whole is bad. Such professional reviews and their criticism (however negative) should be put into the article. However, Amazon reviews that are so biased should be left out. The importance of such "figures" was lowered substantially, in my opinion, when bias was input into them.

Kilkia123 (talk) 00:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I was thinking the same thing when I saw the wide discrepancy between critic reviews and user reviews. Now I believe the average rating of the many is lot more accurate than that of any individual, and what the majority tells is the ratings show a poor review; it's not to do with bias at all. This contrasts sharply with reviews by major critics who are "paid" to do the job, which makes a person can't help but think if the company, spending millions on marketing, did not pay for the game to get good reviews. "Bribing" for good reviews is a strong word, but such thing is not unheard of in the marketing industry. Also notice that the marketing section is longer than the development section, and it is quite logical to assume people associated with marketing this game have been editing and updating this article (editing wikipedia happens with many companies).--76.19.133.38 (talk) 09:10, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There was a similar incident last year when Spore came out, when people flooded the ratings with 1-stars simply because of the restrictive DRM. The big flood of negative reviews is not because of the quality of the game, it's because people are butthurt that there aren't any dedicated servers, and possibly "No Russian". This fact can be clearly seen as the almost identical (in singleplayer) X360 and PS3 versions have 4+ star ratings on Amazon. Speaking as someone who rarely uses multiplayer, both games were actually quite well-done, if a little short. Saying that the gamers must be right just because there are more is an appeal to the majority. Sceptre (talk) 02:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Kilkia123, one could say that EVERY review is biased. Following your logic, the article shouldn't use any reviews or scores because they are nothing more than one person's opinion. If a review says the gameplay is slow, I could say that they are just biased because their favorite games are faster action-packed games. Vice versus if the game is 'too fast'. It's an opinion and we all know that opinions are like assholes... If you have an incredible amount of people who share the same opinion though, then maybe they are on to something...


 * Sceptre, quality isn't solely based on the single player aspect of the game. A game's quality depends on EVERYTHING, including box itself. If a new toy came out and the box gave children skin rashes, I doubt I would be seeing many five star reviews saying how awesome the toy is. The same thing happened with Spore. It doesn't matter if 98% of the game is good when the other 2% has something as drastic as skin rashes (or in Spore's case, DRM). I've been playing PC FPS games since Wolfenstein came out and the lack of dedicated servers is much more severe than a little DRM. So when people on Amazon post 1 star reviews for this game and their reason is because of the multiplayer, their reviews are 100% valid.

Sequel?
Is Call of Duty 7 going to be the sequel to Modern Warfare 2, or is the Modern Warfare series stop and they're going to create a new one?--Rollersox (talk) 02:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The chance that Activision, the biggest money grubbing company in the industry, ends Modern Warfare at 2 is literally 0. Look at guitar hero, they literally raped it with sequels. They will do so for this too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zachncheeze (talk • contribs) 05:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please remember this is not a forum. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Gamespot, IGN, and other gaming sites have reported that the so called "COD7" by Treyarch may be based on the Cold War (and may cover battles in as Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, etc). I'm not sure how substantiated the rumors are however. But there certainlly isn't much information at all. Certainly not any substantiated reports. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Duty_(series)#Call_Of_Duty_7 In other words its just too early to know anything for certain.137.222.114.243 (talk) 15:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've also heard it will be based around the Cold War. --98.18.161.5 (talk) 02:13, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Content removed
I have removed content sourced to user submitted reviews. This is clearly inapproproate per guidelines on reliable sourceing and acceptable sourcing for articles on video games. If reliable, third party sources have commented on the controversy, mentioning such reviews (like the Ars Technica article ) then that could - and probably should - be included, using a user submitted review on amazon as a source is no different to using a review I submit on my userpage. Guest9999 (talk) 14:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Two problems. One is that it isn't one review, its the average user review. Is this not worth mentioning? It's definitely something that SHOULD be in an encyclopedia article on the game. Immediately after it's release professional critic reviews are mostly positive while the large-sample of user reviews is almost unanimously negative... Secondly, Neither of those guidelines says anything about a large sample of user scores. I put in a request on Reliable_sources/Noticeboard for more opinion on the subject.    Jhonka  03:11, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is worth mentioning. Whenever you are dealing with ratings for video games, bias will always be a factor. It doesn't matter whether a 'professional' writes the review or the average individual. There will never be a game that every single person rates a 10. So with that in mind, I think MORE weight should be given to the larger number of reviewers over those of a few scattered individuals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.103.111.163 (talk) 07:38, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Day One Sales #s
http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2009/11/12/modern-warfare-2-sells-close-to-5-million-in-first-day.aspx 164.107.91.36 (talk) 15:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, this is what I was looking for. I'll try to have this information posted by tonight. --Mark0528 (talk) 23:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I've got it posted. --Mark0528 (talk) 23:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

"Controversy" section
Is written badly. No reason given for the terrorist level being controversial, and the first sentence is a run-on. The controversy isn't self-evident, so some clarification is required or the section should be removed since it isn't neutral right now. 164.107.91.36 (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I have edited the entire 'Reception' section, although I did not change any of the information present.

Kilkia123 (talk) 23:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, it reads much much better than my version!    Jhonka  03:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

PC Version as of Nov 12
I have mostly reverted (with some new improvements) the PC criticism section because the prior version included far more specific information regarding which features have been removed from the PC release. Furthermore, while *normally* amazon.com or other retail reviews are not relevant, in this case, it is relevant that professional reviewers are largely positive, while individual users appear to be much less positive about the game (as evidenced by both the amazon.com reviews as well as the 200,000 person petition against the current feature set).Dlazzaro (talk) 17:59, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Controversy
Do you think now that there is a part of the article titled Controversy, it can be removed from the Marketing and Release section since it really dosen't serve a purpose there.Cheddarjack (talk) 00:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Keeping the Tense to Match Current
I think we should edit the article for tense correction. Because the game is now released, I believe we could change sayings such as (in the 'Development' section for example) "IW has stated that there would be no public beta..." to "There was no public beta for Modern Warfare 2." I think that would be a more correct way of stating facts, UNLESS such fact was written as "Infinity Ward announced (on so-and-so date if given) that there would be no public beta unless the internal one...," which works as well.

Kilkia123 (talk) 01:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I have already updated the introduction, entire 'Gameplay' section, 'Characters' section, entire 'Development' section, and the entire 'Reception' section, aside from the other types of edits I have made. I hope my edits make sense and help to improve the article. :)

Kilkia123 (talk) 01:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * One example I saw in a cursory glance: Sales section - it's no longer the first 24 hours, so "has sold" should just be "sold". -132.183.140.236 (talk) 23:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Itallics
Shouldn't all the references to the Call of Duty 4 title be in italics? (ex. Call of Duty 4) That's how titles of movies/games/TV shows are written in other articles. Someone changed them all back to standard font though. I changed all the ones I saw back to italic, I just wanted to make sure I was doing the correct thing though and not just ruining good edits. Splew (talk) 01:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe you are correct. Italics should be used, and even if that isn't so, we should have uniformity. If most of the titles are in italics, then all of them should be. If they are not supposed to be, then none of them should be in italics. Nice changes, I think. You're not "ruining" anything at all. :) Kilkia123 (talk) 01:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, I just wanted to make sure. :)Splew (talk) 21:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Spoilers
I think a spoiler warning should be added to the plot part of the article 68.102.228.59 (talk) 21:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I... just... I... ARGH! See This thread, this thread and this. Thank you, that is all, good night. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 21:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

"The biggest launch in history across all forms of entertainment"
Although I'm sure many fans would like to think so, this is not true. First, Activision said this, and of course they're biased. Second, they're basing that statement on revenue, but not on units sold. The Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows book and the The Dark Knight movie both sold more units, but for not as much (video games are expensive). MW2 is, however, the clear winner versus music and other video games. Even though MW2 has made more revenue across the board, it's still not appropriate to use an unspecific comment by a biased source. --SykoSilver (talk) 23:07, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

http://kotaku.com/5403788/was-modern-warfare-2-really-the-biggest-launch-in-history

Yeah, I read the whole article. At the conclusion they say that Modern Warfare 2 is indeed the biggest launch in entertainment history. --Mark0528 (talk) 19:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No, really, read it again. The claim is fully dependant on Activision's definition of biggest launch, which they define by revenue rather than units sold.  The claim should not be replicated in the wiki article without clarification, as the wording is ambiguous and misleading. -132.183.140.236 (talk) 19:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And how is that not okay? Just because it is under a different category (revenue vs. units) doesn't mean it is any less note worthy nor inferior to the category of units sold. Why not include the claim as long as we state the claim is based on revenue?  --Austinrh (talk) 19:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not not-okay. The problem is that the article currently doesn't state that the claim is based on revenue.  As I said, the article needs clarification. -132.183.140.236 (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Although I think it would be simpler and clearer just to change the word "entertainment" to the word "videogame" -132.183.140.236 (talk) 19:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Activision wants to promote MW2 as the "biggest entertainment launch" in history. That's really nothing close to viewpoint neutral, and Wikipedia shouldn't be doing the job of Activision's marketing department for them, no matter how well it's cited. Especially when the cites are quoting Activision. (I liked the Kotaku piece, though.) We don't have to say it's NOT the "biggest launch EVAR!!1!" but we definitely don't have to say it IS, either. We don't have to say anything, especially when that anything is non-NPOV hyperbole. (I deleted a whole discussion on how VG retailers don't have to spend time showing their product and cleaning their theaters like movie sellers do, but then I realized this isn't a forum. ;-)Kermitmorningstar (talk) 20:25, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Ken Lally reference in voice cast
I couldn't find Ken Lally's name being mentioned anywhere in the end credits. Moreover, the credit of Makarov's name goes to Roman Varshavsky. 50 Cent's name is credited as Curtis Jackson among the voice actors' name. Lally's reference has to be removed until someone could come up with some credible reference. Ken l lee (talk) 09:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Shepherd working with Makarov
Shepherd WAS working with Makarov! Go back and replay the game. In the graveyard level Price talks to Makarov on the radio which reveals that they are working together and that he knows where Shepherd is (why would he know that unless they were working together?!?!). Remember, Shepherd was the one who PLACED Allen with Makarov in the airport massacre, and Makarov KNEW that Allen was undercover (b/c Shepherd was in on it!). Go back and play the bone yard level, and the Endgame level and listen to Shepherd's monologue. Just pay attention to the game!--Austinrh (talk) 16:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please stop saying "go back and replay the game". Just because Makarov knows where Shepherd is is not an explicit confirmation they were working together. Allen etc is all speculation. I've just replayed through "The Enemy of My Enemy" and "Endgame", and nothing, other than Makarov knowing Shepherd's location, which doesn't really say much, suggests they were working together. There's certainly nothing at all from Shepherd's monologue. I'm going to remove it again unless you can provide an explicit source or line of dialogue. Thanks! Fin©™ 17:25, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This is common sense. I have spoken to 5 different people who played the game and we all came to the exactly same conclusion. Not everything has to be spelled out for you in a well-developed story. The biggest piece of evidence is the fact that Makarov knew where Shepherd was. How would he know that?! I also believe that during that same dialoge Price tells Makarov that he is being betrayed by Shepherd (although I am not at home and can not check this right now). Please wait to make this edit before we have more people weighing in on this. I feel you are in the minority as you are the only one changing it back and edits since I made this change have agreed with what I put. If you insist in going against common sense, then I propose that YOU provide an exlicit source. --Austinrh (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia needs verifiability, not truth. "Common sense" is not a good argument for something such as this, I (and several of my friends) were left confused by the story. I've now played through "My Enemy of my Enemy" for the fourth time, and yet again, there is nothing (other than Makarov knowing the location of Shepherd's base, which, in a genre such as this, could be acquired through moles or the intelligence community) implying that one betrayed the other, or that they were working together. People not removing a change does not mean they agree with it. You can't prove a negative (that they weren't working together), I could just as easily say "Shepherd was working with the President". Can you provide an explicit source to disprove that? Thanks! Fin©™ 17:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with Falcon. You have no proof. As far as I could hear, there wasn't even a reason given for how Price and Soap knew about Shepherd. As Falcon says, Allen is speculation, as is Makarov knowing about the base. He might have had spies everywhere. He had to have some contacts, because otherwise he'd have no weapons etc. Also, finally, you are pushing the boundraries of being civil. Stay calm. All of us are working to get the page to its best possible quality (except the vandals, obviously). -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 18:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact that you and your friends were left confused by the story is further evidence of my argument. Apply what I incuded in the plot makes the story make much more sense, right? And WHY would Shepherd even bother to kill Roach and Ghost unless the intelligence they gathered somehow implicated him. Remember him saying "that's one less loose end"? If what you are saying is true then why would he let everything just play out? There would be NO reason to betray the task force unless there were doing something that would hurt him (aka discover his involvement). Killing the task force would in no way help him become "a global hero." It just doesn't make sense. I agree that there may be some assumptions in the plot, but I think they are all very safe and reasonable. I propose that we leave it up until we hear from other users, and if more people feel like you then they will undoubtly come in and discuss it. --Austinrh (talk) 18:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Makarov may have had obtained proof of Shepherd pulling everyone's strings and there are hundreds of ways of doing that (hacking and spies being two of them). We don't know. You are making assumptions, plain and simple. Wikipedia does not allow assumptions. Read that? Good. In my experience, there are no "safe and reasonable" assumptions allowed on Wikipedia. Ever. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 18:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (e/c) That we were confused by the story simply means my conclusion (that Shepherd was taking advantage of the situation he helped create, but did not work with Makarov) is as valid as yours, seeing as it's not explicit. Maybe Shepherd killed Roach and Ghost cos he was a giant dick? Claiming that something doesn't make sense unless your interpretation is accepted is very weak - plot holes exist in all stories. You can't just make assumptions, as Jade notes. Thanks! Fin©™ 18:36, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I was not implying that because you and your friends were confused is evidence to change the article. I was just saying as a reasonable person you have to agree that it makes more sense on a whole. --Austinrh (talk) 19:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I honestly haven't thought about it. However, yet again, "making sense" does not mean it should be included. Verifiability, not truth. Thanks! Fin©™ 20:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, okay, touche. I am not at home and can not play the game myself nor look anything up on the internet (Work... restricted). I will look into it some more when I get home and get back to you, but what you guys have in the plot does not make sense, and I truly believe you are in the minority, but I'll leave it for now and get back to you. --Austinrh (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Considering in the level where Makarov tells you Shepherd's location Shepherd's men and Makarov's men were fighting each other, and you had to kill men on both sides, I'd say Makarov and Shepherd never worked together. Anakinjmt (talk) 18:34, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry to lenghten this even more, but Anakinjmt has a point here. I totally forgot about that thing. You should probably bold that text right there so everyone who joins the discussion sees it! That's some GOOD evidence right there. FlashHawk4 (talk) 22:15, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey guys. So here's the deal. I went back and played all those levels multiple times and I can say you were right in the fact that it is never specifically stated that they are working together. I did some browsing and found many forums with people discussing this. Usually started with somebody asking "WTF happened in the story?!" with a bunch of idiot answers until somebody says "Shepherd was working with Makarov" and suddenly everybody is like "oh... that make sense." SO I propose if you are unwilling to state the truth in the plot section, then we include a section under the plot discussing Shepherds possible motives. But before I get ahead of myself let me once again (and clearly) state WHY I believe that Shepherd was working with Makarov. Keep in mind that much of it is circumstantial, but when you put it all together I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion.
 * Shepherds Motivation: He was pissed about what happened in MW1, 30000 of his troops are killed by a nuke, but after the events of the game America goes on it's merry way. He doesn't feel this is right. He believes that if the war "hit home" that American's would finally wake up.
 * Evidence:
 * (1) Makarov knew that Allen was a CIA agent. Allen was hand picked by Shepherd. Totally circumstantial, but it makes sense once you see the rest.
 * (2) Shepherd betrays Task Force 141. If you say that his motivation was to "become an international hero" then you have to explain to me HOW killing TF141 helped him in that goal. Roach and Ghost were carrying out HIS orders and trying collect intel so they could prove to the world that Makarov was in charge of the massacre at the airport, not the Americans. It is obvious that something in the "intelligence" they gathered would have hurt Shepherd in some way (c'mon, you have to agree with that). He even says "that's one less loose end" (or something to that effect) after he grabs the intel and kills Roach and Ghost.
 * (3) Price. During the safe house level Price tells the player that he is going to be listening in on Makarov's communications and that he will not be able to communicate with them for some time. The next time you hear Price is while Shepherd is getting ready to burn Roach and Ghost. He is screaming not to trust Shepherd. Okay, so Price listens to Makarov's radio and by doing so discovers that Shepherd is not trustworthy. How do you explain this? Explain to me what Price could have heard on Makarov's radio that leads Price to believe that Shepherd was going to betray them, but DOESN'T suggest that they are somehow working together???
 * (4) During the graveyard level Makarov knows where Shepherd is, you can say that he has "spies" or whatever, but the most obvious answer is probably the right one. Price also says that "Shepherd is cleaning house." Meaning he is trying to destroy anything that could implicate him in the airport massacre, and THAT is why his men are trying to kill Makarov during that level (yes, it will ALSO make him look like a hero, but I'm not arguing that he isn't trying to do that as well). He would be that last "loose end," so of course Shepherd wants Makarov dead.
 * (5) Price's speech before they storm his secret base. He is talking about how history will be written the way that Shepherd wants it to be if they fail. Up to this point (according to your view) the ONLY thing that Shepherd has done "wrong" is kill Ghost and Roach. It just doesn't make sense. How would revealing that fact be devastating to how history is written?
 * (6) His speech at the end. Assuming that you are correct, how is anything that he has specifically done helped in "creating patriots" in America. Why would that even be relevant? Yes the events of the game created the patriots, but what was HIS role in that?! Why is he telling you this? Because HE wanted it to happen!
 * (7) THE GAME DOESN'T MAKE SENSE IF THEY AREN'T WORKING TOGETHER! You said so yourself.

I am done. Do what you want. I'll leave you alone, but seriously guys... it's the only thing that makes sense, and I believe there is plenty of evidence in the game to support this. You're whole "it isn't directly said" is ridiculous. They also don't "directly say" that they are going into hiding, but that is what makes sense based on what is happening and there is dialog to support it. The same applies to this. --Austinrh (talk) 02:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Nope Shepard and Makarovs forces were fighting against each other at the end and shepard was trying o kill Makarov to become an international hero I'm not sure how thats working together The Movie Master 1 (talk) 04:07, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You obviously didn't read the whole thing. Yes, Shepherd wanted Makarov dead. He was a liability. He was "cleaning house" (as Price puts it) by taking care of anything or anyone who could prove he was a traitor. AND yes, it would make him look good (obviously). --Austinrh (talk) 07:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * ''Shepherds Motivation: He was pissed about what happened in MW1, 30000 of his troops are killed by a nuke, but after the events of the game America goes on it's merry way. He doesn't feel this is right. He believes that if the war "hit home" that American's would finally wake up.
 * Evidence:
 * (1) Makarov knew that Allen was a CIA agent. Allen was hand picked by Shepherd. Totally circumstantial, but it makes sense once you see the rest.''


 * As Austinrh mentioned, that was one given clue. Soap even mentions in the briefing for the Takedown mission that only Task Force 141 knew about Allen's identity.


 * (2) Shepherd betrays Task Force 141. If you say that his motivation was to "become an international hero" then you have to explain to me HOW killing TF141 helped him in that goal. Roach and Ghost were carrying out HIS orders and trying collect intel so they could prove to the world that Makarov was in charge of the massacre at the airport, not the Americans. It is obvious that something in the "intelligence" they gathered would have hurt Shepherd in some way (c'mon, you have to agree with that). He even says "that's one less loose end" (or something to that effect) after he grabs the intel and kills Roach and Ghost.


 * Same conclusion I ended up with myself.


 * (4) During the graveyard level Makarov knows where Shepherd is, you can say that he has "spies" or whatever, but the most obvious answer is probably the right one. Price also says that "Shepherd is cleaning house." Meaning he is trying to destroy anything that could implicate him in the airport massacre, and THAT is why his men are trying to kill Makarov during that level (yes, it will ALSO make him look like a hero, but I'm not arguing that he isn't trying to do that as well). He would be that last "loose end," so of course Shepherd wants Makarov dead.


 * Same conclusion I ended up with myself, and completely supports that Shepherd leaked Allen's information to Makarov.


 * For starters, I want to add that information in myself, but after the debacle that happened with Call of Duty 4 two years ago(i.e. "Gaz, Griggs, and Vasquez's deaths are ZOMG, ORIGINAL RESEARCH" from the admin), the furthest this can go on is either a blog or a message board. Wikipedia will not let this sit on the article, regardless of the information being right or not.Dibol (talk) 07:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "it is never specifically stated that they are working together". This is all that matters. Everything after this is assumptions, speculation and original research and so shouldn't be included. As regards Price, Nikolai and Soap going into hiding, I'm pretty sure one of them says "We have to go away for a while" or "I know somewhere we can stay" or something, it's pretty obvious they're going into hiding. For the third time, and Dibol should take note, Wikipedia needs verifiability, not truth. Thanks! Fin©™ 11:36, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Price does not say that he says "Soap needs help." Nikola says "I know a place" they never say they are going into hiding. I am not saying it should be removed, because it is true, but it is an ASSUMPTION, which you are so opposed to. Other assumptions in the plot: that Price rigged the warhead to explode in the atmosphere to create the EMP. "This is never specifically stated", but it makes complete sense. Also the air force assumes DC has been lost, another assumption, as it is never specifically stated. It does say they are on hammer down, but it doesn't say why. But using the magical ability of reason we are able to come to the correct conclusion and connect the dots. Not to mention the fact that "Shepherd intends to take advantage of the global crisis to become a global hero" is NEVER stated ANYWHERE in the game. So you say that my conclusion is an assumption, well so is the one on the article. Only if you use mine, there is evidence to back it up, AND it makes sense (that can't be said for the current assumption). There is more evidence for this then for the other assumptions in the article. Like I said, if you don't want "truth" in the plot section of the article then why don't we include a separate section about it? There is plenty on online chatter about this that we should be able to easily find some references and still give readers the most correct information possible. --Austinrh (talk) 15:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Stay civil. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 15:46, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am. --Austinrh (talk) 16:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You're shouting a lot. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 16:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm emphasizing a lot. --Austinrh (talk) 16:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Then use italics. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 17:30, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You emphasize how you want. I'll do it how I want. --Austinrh (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * All caps is considered to be shouting and is bad netiquette. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 17:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've no problem removing any plot points that you consider to be assumptions (including the bit about going into hiding). A lot of the points you make there are explicitly backed up by plot dialogue and do not require any leaps of faith, Shepherd and Makarov working together does, and I consider it not even implied in the plot. Find a source like you say, or don't include it. Thanks! Fin©™ 16:13, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * And, for the fourth time, Wikipedia needs verifiability, not truth. This is not me, this is official policy. Thanks! Fin©™ 16:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, so are you saying that if I find sources discussing this that we are justified in creating a separate section about this? And as far as you're whle "verifiability" thing... the entire plot section is based on what is happening on the storyline. It is verified by the storyline. Listen, I am just trying to help create the best, most accurate article possible. When I first came on this page after playing the game and read the plot section I could believe that this was excluded because it is HUGE. I believe that many other readers feel the same way. We need to at least mention it. If you don't feel the evidence above is enough to be included in the actual plot section (I don't think it is a leap of faith as you say... all other alternatives don't make sense), then let's discuss it in a seperate section. And finally, I DO believe that we need to removed the part about Shepherd wanting to be a global hero. THAT is an assumption and does not make sense. Lets take anything out of the plot discussing his motivation and create a section called "Shepherd's Motivation" or something. --Austinrh (talk) 16:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, I'm saying if you can find a source, you can include than Makarko and Shepherd were working together. It doesn't deserve it's own section, regardless of title or content. The plot section should be a quick synopsis, not an examination of characters and their motivations. If you feel something is an assumption, then remove it. Thanks! Fin©™ 16:36, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I think that the individual player is left with the evidence of both sides and must decide for himself. I would like to say this. Price can kinda figure out Shepherd's men can't be trusted when they started SHOOTING AT HIM. I could probably say that Makarov probably had nothing to do with it. Also,some evidence that doesn't seem to be cited enough would be Captain Price's "For the Record" monologue. (I enjoyed that- I happen to say that type of thing myself sometimes). Shepherd DID kinda want to be a big hero, according to that monologue. In my opinion, the best thing to do for the article is to gather the evidence for both sides, and present it to the reader with a minimal amount of bias so that the reader can decide for his- or herself. FlashHawk4 (talk) 22:11, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * While that is a sensible idea, both sides have been using original research, so no. :P -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

IW4 Engine using id Tech?
Although considered proprietary, the text before the start menu views that the game uses technology by id Software. I am guessing it's still using id Tech 3 while the updates are all Infinity Ward? The Phantomnaut (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

A small note on editing
Eventhough this article is on lockdown, I've noticed even experienced Wikipedians tend to add some erroneous edits, mainly adding unnecessary capital letters to articles, like "First person shooter, Third person shooter", or changing the correct style of 'U.S.' into 'US'. Thanks everybody, and happy editing! -- Soetermans |  drop me a line  |  what I'd do now?  22:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

lol that was my bad. Sorry, I think the content is more important than the grammar though. Am I right? --Mark0528 (talk) 19:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It wasn't aimed at anyone in specific, Mark. Of course content is more important, but while we're at it, we just might do our best, right? -- Soetermans |  drop me a line  |  what I'd do now?  17:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Recalls
I know this isn't a forum but I really need to know is it true that in the UK all copies of Modern Warfare 2 still in stores are being recalled due to bugs in the game? Nicolizzio (talk) 23:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No. It isn't. Where'd you hear that? *holds game close to chest* -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 23:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It's been going on for weeks - people have been complaining that there copies won't load up on there PS3/Xbox360 and if they do load they dont get trophies/achievments or SpecOps won't load so Infity Ward have suposedly recalled copies still in stores to fix them and if you have a copy that doesnt work you send it to them and they'll replace it. Nicolizzio (talk) 20:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I can tell you now that it's not all copies. Mine works perfectly. Can you post the links to all the places you heard this? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 21:15, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the way it's been going on "for weeks" when MW2 was released a week ago today. I've seen nothing on any news site, so I'm going to call bogus on this. Thanks! Fin©™ 21:22, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of xbox 360 version
Should it not say that infinity ward has disabled party chat in certain multiplayer games and not all of them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.72.222 (talk) 13:37, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it should. I've changed it so that it's clear that it's in certain multiplayer playlists. Anakinjmt (talk) 17:01, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * On a similar note, for consoles is this only for 360 or is this for PS3 as well? By "this" I mean having party chat disabled. Anakinjmt (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

last line of plot
This is an insignificant edit, but the last line of the Plot reads "Price warns Nikolai that they will be international fugitives for what they've done and agree that they should go into hiding."

First, I believe "criminals" is a better fit in the context of the sentence. They aren't yet fugitives. He is suggesting that they become fugitives as a consequence of their status as criminals.

Second, the subject of the second part of the sentence, "and agree that they should go into hiding" is unclear. "Agree" requires a plural subject, but the only other subject in the sentence was "Price."

I suggest that the line be changed to "Price warns Nikolai that they will be international criminals for what they've done, and they agree that they should go into hiding." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackbenimble4 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * done, thanks for the heads up. Vrinan (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I still don't really think the last current line of the plot summary, "He tells them of a hiding place he knows.", is correct. The last lines of the game go:

Price: "I thought I told you this was a one way trip."

Nikolai: "Maybe it still is, they'll be looking for us you know."

Price: "Nikolai, we've gotta get Soap out of here"

Nikolai: "Da (yeah), I know a place"

I think it should be more like "Nikolai warns them that they will be fugitives (That's what "They'll be looking for us" implies) for what they've done, but he knows of a place they can hide".Splew (talk) 18:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Russian Ban
I dont wanna log in to edit the page, but the game has been into a forced recall in Russia, effectively banning it. IW is trying to see if they can patch the game and sell it later. source: http://www.destructoid.com/russia-bans-modern-warfare-2-recalls-all-copies-of-game-155211.phtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.220.160 (talk) 05:11, 16 November 2009 (UTC) see section 36 of the discussion page this was brought up by me already.

The plot summary
Seriously, I have never seen such a poor plot summary on Wikipedia before. I can honest to God not believe someone hasn't fixed this already! I have tried, but it just changes back to the way it was before!

So, what's wrong with it, you may ask? Well, among other things, it's "Shepherd", not "Shepard", as it's spelled at the end of the summary. Get a grip, Wikipedia! This plot summary needs to be completely removed and started over from scratch. Markunator (talk) 16:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Be more specific. This is not helpful at all. --Austinrh (talk) 17:26, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Why not engage in constructive criticism? Solely criticizing won't do anything. Why don't you post your own version of it on here? --Mark0528 (talk) 19:49, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The grammar is off, it's repetitive. Shepherd's name is mispelled at the end. It's just poorly constructed as a whole. Markunator (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I was the one who made some of the more major changes to the plot summary about a week ago, so my edits are probably the ones you're referring to. Before I started the plot summary was pretty short and vague, and was in need of expansion. I was just trying to expanded it the best I could, but I'm not perfect, and I'm just one guy, so you can't expect everything I write to be a perfect literary work. So sorry for whatever grammatical or spelling mistakes there were, but it seems like they've all been fixed by other editors by now. :) Splew (talk) 18:31, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Shepherd's Motivations
[Moved to a new heading because we are widening the scope of the discussion.] As stated in the above section, it is not explicitly stated that Shepherd's goal was to become "a global hero." And if we are going to remain consistent, then this needs to be removed until a consensus can be reached or solid evidence given. If one can not be reached then we should leave this ambiguous. Readers should not be told that his motivation is to become a hero just because we don't have anything else to put there. At the very least we can allow them to make up their own minds. If you want to keep this up there then please provide evidence that this is his motivation (happy?), otherwise I am going to remove it (again). --Austinrh (talk) 17:44, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Besides trying to become a global hero or trying to get rid of evidence which proves him a war criminal, what other reason would he kill Roach and Ghost for? I think there is a reason that the level is called "Loose Ends", as opposed to something more obvious like "Data Gathering"... 71.169.176.131 (talk) 20:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC) EDIT: Sorry, I did not notice that you support the "he was working with Makarov" idea. I feel the same way. I am the ip btw. Vrinan (talk) 21:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As stated above the "hero" idea holds no water because none of Shepherd's actions support him becoming a global hero (specifically betraying TF141), and the only other theory requires the use of evidence and logic... which apparently is considered "original research," so unless we find more information supporting either theory, Shepherd's motivations should not be discussed in the article. --Austin de Rossi (aka Austinrh) (talk) 21:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not "apparently" considered original research, it is original research. Please give a read of the linked article. Thanks! Fin©™ 21:38, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just my two cents. From what I've seen in the game, I think his motivations for committing the acts he did during the course of the game is a sort of vengeance on the world for ignoring him during the events of Modern Warfare and to unite the world against terrorism. I can't remember the exact quotes but they were something like "5 years ago, I lost 30,000 men in a blink of an eye. And the world just f**king watched," and "This will be a wake-up call," or something similar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.38.220 (talk) 11:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

At the very least it can be said that Shepherd gained the unquestioning trust of the U.S. government and military because of the war, encapsulated in that "blanc check". I doubt he was trying to become a golbal hero, but he appeared to have plans for the U.S. that included beating back the Russians and defeating America's enemies for all time. Some say today that the U.S. is on the decline; I think Shepherd took this too heart, and as revenge for the troops he lost in COD4, he wanted to make America stronger than ever. If he became America's champion, he would not be a global hero since the enemies of America would still hate him. You say global hero as if everyone would universally like him and all he wanted was fame. He wanted power. =/= Ironoclast (Talk) 18:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that he is trying to recover the respect he had before the bomb went off in COD4. He would become known as the saviour of America for defending against the Russian invasion, and also, in the cutscene for one of the later levels, you can hear SecDef, talking to Shepherd, saying "You were right. We should have listened to you". He is trying to regain his former standing, as seen in the former "blank check" posts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.153.69 (talk) 04:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

How did Makarov know where Shephard was hiding? Mallerd (talk) 02:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of the PC version/Controversy: PC version of the game is a direct console port
Should we include this? People had already found out that the PC version of MW2 is just a console port and it's sparking a huge anti-IW/Activision campaign for PC gamers. I would just like to expand more info under a new Controversy section detailing many aspects of the PC version that is causing much debates within the PC FPS community.

We already have a criticism section, maybe we could expand it into a whole controversy section. Topics could includes

Lack of dedicated servers

Lack of quality for IWNET -weak security -smaller matches (population wise) -DOES NOT DETECT CRACK (many people are playing this game ON IWNET with a cracked version of the game)

The 1-month-before-release annoucement stating massive change to how the MP system was anticipated to be

Controversy circling around the possible plan Activision have to make the COD franchise into a Pay To Play service shortly after the release of MW2

I could go on and on, but with permision to spawn a section dedicated to these topics im pretty sure people will continue adding more info. All these are non biased of course, even though i never liked IW/Activision's decisions this year for COD MW2, but the fact that these topics are hot discussions in forums and it would be nice to include them in the article about what's going on around this game and the companies that made it and published it --Rexz (talk) 19:18, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * They're already mentioned in the article, and it has its own section. Thanks! Fin©™ 20:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * WP:No original research and WP:Verifiability.    Jhonka  01:00, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I do believe that the article should be clearer in the humungous gap in ratings between the console versions of this game and the PC version. At first glance, the article makes it sound like the game is a universal success. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.103.111.163 (talk) 07:41, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe because it is a universal success? Thanks! Fin©™ 22:38, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Trojan horse
Currently a lot of community memebers report that they have a trojan horse detection while playing online. It seems that the trojan TR/Crypt.XPACK.Gen is send via the p2p network. We should add this to the article as soon as some reliable source appears. Right now it is just forum talk (but a lot of it, so I guess it is true). It appears that the trojan is trying to get information about the steam account (users have report steam disconnects right before the alarm. "Source": http://www.infinityward.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=181646 (forum is slow) 78.51.58.97 (talk) 12:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not really notable. Trojans can happen anywhere at any time. Someone was just smart enough cruel enough to use MW2 as an excuse. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 12:46, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am sorry but you are incorrect. A dedicated server would check network traffic to a certain degree and also would not spread the code. This is an issue with the p2p network and the lack of security, since MW2 is a popular game and also one of the first normal online shooters that use p2p technology it is notable indeed. 78.51.58.97 (talk) 13:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm hardly incorrect if I'm stating my opinion. No opinion is incorrect. And it is my opinion that viruses happen all the time, everywhere, and therefore lacks notability. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 15:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course an opinion can be incorrect. It happens when it is based on false "facts" Like the statement "it happens all the time". Which of course is total nonsense. Trojan horses sent while playing online, from game clients or servers are rarely seen, if at all. We should wait for the official reaction and the respons of the AV companies. If it is indeed a trojan horse we should most definitly add it to the article. If it is a false alarm than I agree that it is not notable. 78.51.58.176 (talk) 22:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Thejadefalcon. Wikipedia isn't a place to list every single issue with a product. A trojan horse going through the network just isn't that important or notable IMO.Splew (talk) 01:02, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed.    Jhonka  01:05, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Xbox 360 Party Chat
Under the Gameplay Section, Multiplayer > It says "In the Xbox 360 version of the game, the party chat system is disabled while the player is playing online." This is not the case in all aspects of Multiplayer, as some game types allow Party Chat. Can someone change this please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.1.246.21 (talk) 19:13, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

It should also be noted that you can mute unwanted chatter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.200.130.2 (talk) 15:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Mission list
Should we create a little list where the mission names are displayed and/or maybe do a little description of what you're doing in the missions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.157.198.168 (talk) 15:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No. They don't belong on Wikipedia. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 16:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

NPOV tag
In critical reception, can it be removed? I think the section as written is VERY neutral. Discuss.  Jhonka  00:57, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. The section seems to just state the facts. The tag also seems to imply that the article shouldn't have a "controversy" section. The fact is though, that the game has generated a good bit of controversy, and I don't think that can be ignored. Splew (talk) 01:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree as well. In this case the controversy justifies its own section. I removed it. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 05:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Nikolai
Shouldn't Nikolai be added to the list of characters? Granted, he does play a relatively minor role in the game, but he is mentioned twice in the plot summary. People who haven't played both Call of Duty 4 and MW2 might wonder who "Who's Nikolai?". I also think he's worth mentioning simply because he is a returning character from "Call of Duty 4". The reason I ask is because I added Nikolai to the characters section and someone removed it. I wondered what everyone else thought. Splew (talk) 02:00, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Go right ahead. Re-add it. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 02:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, done. Splew (talk) 02:54, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

ICBM vs SLBM
Under the plot section it says, "hijack a Russian nuclear submarine, and launch an ICBM towards Washington, D.C." The correct term is a SLBM which is a submarine launch ballistic missile. I don't know if you want to change it I just wanted to point it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.226.194.135 (talk) 03:19, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * you could change it. rdunn  albatross  11:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, they can't. The page is protected. I'll do it in a second. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 13:04, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The last paragraph of the plot summary
I re-added some info to the end of the plot summary that another user removed, claiming it was "too detailed and wordy". In my opinion, the end of the plot summary was too vague and didn't make much sense with the info removed. Also, with the info I re-added, the end of the summary is no more detailed and wordy that the summary from Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, which is a featured article, BTW. Here are the two versions for comparison:

Previous version: ''Shepherd appears to escape when he drives his boat into the back of a hovering MH-53 helicopter. However, Price manages to shoot down the helicopter just before their boat tumbles over a waterfall. After recovering from the fall, '''an injured Soap staggers after and attacks Shepherd, but is incapacitated. As Soap lies on the ground, Price and Shepherd engage in an extended fist fight. Soap then impales Shepard in the eye with a knife, killing him.''' Price attends to Soap's wounds as Nikolai arrives in a helicopter to extract them. Nikolai warns them that Shepherd's soldiers will be looking for them and tells them of a hiding place he knows.''

New version (with info re-added): ''Shepherd appears to escape when he drives his boat into the back of a hovering MH-53 helicopter. However, Price manages to shoot down the helicopter just before their boat tumbles over a waterfall. After recovering from the fall, '''an injured Soap staggers Shepherd and attempts to kill him with his knife, but Shepherd blocks the attack and stabs him with his own knife. As Soap lies on the ground, Shepherd prepares to execute him with his pistol, but before he can, Price attacks him and knocks the pistol away. Price and Shepherd then engage in an extended fist fight. Soap attempts to grab Shepherd's pistol, but Shepherd kicks it away. Soap then pulls the knife out of his own chest and throws it at Shepherd, striking him in the eye and killing him.''' Price attends to Soap's wounds as Nikolai arrives in a helicopter to extract them. Nikolai warns them that Shepherd's soldiers will be looking for them and tells them of a hiding place he knows.''

If anyone still thinks my version is too wordy and detailed then feel free to fix it, or just revert it. Splew (talk) 23:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd go with the first paragraph. It was fine in the first place.Dibol (talk) 05:17, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I think a mixture of the two would be best. In my opinion, I think being stabbed is noteworthy. MW2 is the only game I've ever played or heard about where you pull a knife out of your own stomach and it made me cringe more than No Russian did (as did blowing up the Russians in the WWII war memorial (I actually hesitated there and thought "is this right?" but on No Russian I was just thinking "dukka-dukka-dukka" (does this say something good or bad about me?))). While it's speculation, it's my understanding that a knife wound like that is very deadly and that, if it was the real world, Soap would be very unlikely to survive, especially since he pulled the damn thing out. (winces again) So I'd say mention that the knife Soap throws was embedded in him. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 11:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I think it's also important to mention that Shepherd almost executes Soap, and that Price attacks him and prevents it. Otherwise people might wonder why Price and Shepherd are suddenly in a fistfight. Splew (talk) 16:44, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but it needs to be less wordy. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 17:00, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Depending where you are stabbed in the chest it may be possible to pull it out. Also dont forget adrenaline and other chemicals help the human body do things that would normal kill it. rdunn  albatross  13:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, it looked like it was a stomach wound to me. That equals badness. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 13:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I think its a bit to wordy and some of it sounds like its a litte kid telling a story as mentioned I think a mix between the two would be good but less wordy The Movie Master 1 (talk) 18:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

ACS Module?
It'd help to explain whatever this device is. 66.66.145.165 (talk) 14:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I have no clue. The ACS disambiguation page isn't helpful and the top search for "ACS module" is this article. The most likely from the disambiguation page is Attitude control system but that doesn't seem right because that's, well, the attitude control system. It might be technobabble. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 15:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I was wondering the exact same thing. I also previously searched for "ACS" on here to try and find an article to link it to, but it wasn't any help. I think the "ACS module" in the game is just a purely fictional device. It's never explained in the game what exactly it does. Apparently, cracking it allowed the Russians to advance on the U.S. without being detected on radar (but they could still be sen via satellite), which makes no sense. How could "cracking" some module prevent you from being seen on radar? So yeah, I think it's just some creative plot device that the writers made up to get around the fact that hundreds of Russian military aircraft would likely never be able to fly into U.S. airspace undetected. Splew (talk) 16:55, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If they can crack the code, they could interfere with the signals and beam false information. After all, this is technically Call of Duty: Future Warfare, so who knows? -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 17:00, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's just a fictional device. If you look at the top-left at the beginning of the load screen before the level Wolverines! it says "Attack Characterisation System". I think that's what ACS stands for. It SEEMS to control satellite surveillance, but the aforementioned load screen also mentions SOSUS (underwater surveillance for submarines) and PAVE PAWS (radar system), two real-life systems, to be also "inoperative". In the load screen it's clear the NORAD headquarter is seeing a lot of dots on the screen while the local AFB's are reporting to be seeing nothing (until the air traffic controller has made visual contact). So just draw whatever conclusions we can from these. 222.153.227.174 (talk) 10:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, while I agree with your assessment, all of this qualifies as original research, so unless you can convince a reliable source to suggest and expand on this, we can't add it into the article. The exception to that maybe explaining what ACS possibly stands for. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 13:40, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If you remember the ACS Module was inside a crashed satellite. I am guessing it controls permissions for the satellite. For example, if the Russians tried to use a US satellite they would have to had some sort of password, or software which the 'ACS Module' would verify and deny/allow access. I think that they Russians were able to determine the permissions for all the US satellites based on the ACS module from the one crashed satellite. Of course this is all speculation and not intended for the article, but that is my take on it. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 20:03, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Consensus?
Somebody added (Attack Characterization System) to the article. Do we have a consensus on this? Should we remove it? --Austin de Rossi (talk) 15:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've deleted the link. It was obvious that it was wrong and it links to a completely unsourced article created around the same time as the link was put in. However, if Attack Characterisation System is seen in a loading screen, then I think we should keep that. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 18:09, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Revolver
General Shepherd uses a high-caliber revolver, not a pistol. The fact that Wikipedia could have had such a major error in a plot summary for so long just amazes me. Please fix this; I've tried, but have been unable to. I also still think that the summary as a whole could be a little better. Markunator (talk) 18:15, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It was labelled as a revolver last I checked. I'll do it now. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 18:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * According to Wikipedia's own article on handgun, the distinction on pistol and revolver is only American. From a neutral point of view a revolver can be regarded as a pistol. 222.153.227.174 (talk) 05:15, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the article is written in American English, so that would make sense. However, personally, I prefer the term revolver anyway, even though I'm English, because it specifies that what type of pistol it is. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 10:17, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Flag Issues
There should be some mention of issues surrounding the backwardness of the Italian and Irish flags in this game in the controversey section, along with the somewhat seemingly random selection of flags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.38.30 (talk) 20:41, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? I didn't even see any flags in the game, let along notice what was wrong with them. Secondly, if there's no reliable source detailing this, then it can't go in the article. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 20:54, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe he's talking about the titles in multiplayer? That's the only thing I can think of. That Random Guy 21:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Who is after Price and company?
Using "they" is too ambiguous, and anyone who played the game, or even simply read the plot summary, will know that the player by no means had destroyed all of Shepherds forces and they were pretty upset with Price and Soap. Price warns Nikolai that "they" (the rest of Shepherds forces) will be pursuing them for killing their leader. Also, Shepherd's men are in the US Military. I think Price mentions something about them in a cutscene. If anyone is after Price, Soap, and Nikolai, it would be the US Military, and by extension Shepherd's men. Vrinan (talk) 22:41, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's original research. Remember that Makarov hates Price for some reason, so they're probably hiding from him too. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:44, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, I guess that makes sense too. However, I don't think that "they" should be used. It doesn't sound right. Perhaps something like "their adversaries" or "their enemies", because by that point we know exactly who those people are (Makarov's men and Shepherd's men). Vrinan (talk) 22:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "They" is the term used in the game and the article has speech marks around it, indicating that it's not entirely clear who "they" are. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is not "entirely" clear who "they" are, but is is clear that "they" are Price's and Soap's enemies. "Price warns Nikolai that their enemies will be looking for them and insists Soap gets medical attention" sounds much better and is more clear than "Price warns Nikolai that "they" will be looking for them and insists Soap gets medical attention" Vrinan (talk) 22:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the whole point is to be ambiguous. We don't know who "they" are, we shouldn't make that assumption for the readers. I agree it is not the best wording, but I don't like "their enemies" either because their enemies would be Shepherd and/or Makarov, not Shepherd and Makarov's men... they are just following orders (body of the snake). And I don't think Shepherd's men as extensions of the military would hold a personal vendetta against an individual. If anything they would report to their superiors who would then make the judgment call to go after them or not. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 23:15, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What I think the main problem is, is that everyone who played the game will know who "they" is, the people that they were fighting during the campaign (Shepherd's men and Makarov's men), and they will wonder why the article doesn't just say that, and instead uses "they". I don't know about you, but using "they" seems pretty stilted to me. 71.169.185.194 (talk) 23:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I don't think everybody will be on the same page with that. For example I personally think "they" refers to the US Government (not Shepherd's men specifically), and like Thejadefalcon said he could also be talking about Makrov (and his men). The very fact that we are having this conversation is evidence that not everybody will think the same thing. The best thing to do is to state it how Price does in the game and let the readers make their own assumptions. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 00:08, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that while the word "They" is pretty ambiguous, it's still safe to say that Price and Soap are international fugitives. They killed a U.S. Army general, and dozens of U.S. soldiers, so the U.S. and their allies would probably be after them. The Russians wouldn't be to friendly either, since Soap and Price fought against them. So I think international fugitives would be a good description.Splew (talk) 23:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "it's still safe to say that Price and Soap are international fugitives" --&-- "...so the U.S. and their allies would probably be after them" - that is exactly why it must remain as "they." That is original research. Nothing but "they" is specifically stated in the game. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 03:03, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that "They" is a very good description. The fact that they are international fugitives means that the whole world is after them, not just their enemies or one power. They are already international fugitives when they go after Shepherd because they launched a ballistic missile, blew up the International Space Station and crippled the vehicles and satellites of two warring powers. They also killed a US Army General and dozens of US troops, as well as Makarov's troops and the Brazilian guys in the favela. I think that "they" is the most appropriate term when applied to the fact that they are being sought out by the whole world. Grieferhate (talk) 01:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

❌ The details are left ambiguous in the game, and is therefore left ambiguous in the article. Please provide a reliable source with more information before making this change. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 16:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The use of "they" in quotes is rather awkward and unnecessary, because that part could be written much more smoothly and consistently in a different fashion. For example, "Price warns Nikolai that they will be pursued, and insists Soap ......". It is just unnecessary to include the detail that he says "they", and tell the readers what they need to know; that Price, Nikolai, and Soap will be looked for. 71.169.185.194 (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right.. that does sound a lot better. I'll go ahead and make the edit. Thanks! --Austin de Rossi (talk) 22:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

"No Russian"
I think that one thing we hardly reference is the implication of Makarov's reminder at the beginning of the controversial mission. The fact that Makarov says to Allen (in English) "Remember, no Russian..." could be an early indication of his knowledge of Allen's identity. It also could indicate that he deliberately spoke only in English so that it would heavily implicate the Americans as the culprits of the attack. I feel that the use of language in this mission should be referenced a bit more thoroughly in the plot. Grieferhate (talk) 01:36, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting theory. Now to think about it, it might be true...but...--Rollersox (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * But, mentioning anything beyond the fact that he says 'No Russian" would be original research it seems to me. Dbrodbeck (talk) 04:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Things I found
Found a few things Ominae (talk) 00:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Australian story on reclassfying the games sold in Australia due to the No Russian Story.
 * Articles on MW2's appearance in NCIS, in its 11th episode. Is it alright if I add the articles?
 * Would you post the sources here? --Austin de Rossi (talk) 14:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6241211.html?tag=result;title;0 - The Australia story (Already posted)

http://ps3.kombo.com/article.php?artid=11446

http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2009-11-03-warfare03_ST_N.htm - Article has some defense on the No Russian level

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/213011/modern-warfare-2-writer-the-airport-level-was-a-risk-we-had-to-take/ - Interview with Jesse Stern with some development (supposed) ideas of what MW2 should have been.

Ominae (talk) 02:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the NCIS article is certainly notable. Possibly as part of a new "Cultural Impact" section. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Kinda late, but if you didn't noticed I added a "Cultural Impact" section including the NCIS episode. I'm not sure Cultural Impact is the proper title, so if anybody has any suggestions I'm open to them. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 19:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Modern Warfare 2: Ghost comic section
The section needs to be updated. Since I don't have an account I can't do it : )
 * Then create an account. :P It really does make things easier for both us and you. Anyway, say what you need to do (possibly even write it here) and someone will do it for you. The main article on the comic isn't protected, so see if that needs updating. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 20:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Makarov
Where does Makarov go after COD: MW2? In the game and on Wikipedia it doesn't say anything...--Rollersox (talk) 23:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No-one knows and it would be original research to say anything. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 23:19, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should say that what happens to Makarov is unknown... if we don't mention it at all then readers who haven't played the game will just think we forgot to include it. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 14:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Magnum
Shepard was try to used magnum to kill Soap, not using a revolver. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danny AKA Kira (talk • contribs) 11:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * what you call a "magnum" is a revolver. rdunn  albatross  13:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * If you really want to get specific, Shepherd used a Colt Anaconda double-action revolver chambered for the .44 Magnum cartridge. But going into that much detail in the plot summary is completely unnecessary. The terms pistol, handgun, or revolver will suffice. Splew (talk) 23:47, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Ghost
Ghost is never given a proper introduction in the plot summary. Markunator (talk) 19:08, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Nor is Ghost given a proper introduction in the game, thus, it's hard to work a formal introduction to the plot when a formal introduction isn't present. -- ҚЯĀŽΨÇÉV 13  other crap 21:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * He's introduced in the characters section, which precedes the plot summary. Also, like Krazycev13 said, he's never formally introduced in the story, he just kind of shows up one mission. Splew (talk) 22:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thats why he is called Ghost... he is a ghost. its the kinda thing were they don't want you to know —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt5000matt (talk • contribs) 22:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Last line of the plot summary, again
I realize this has been agonized over several times now, but the last line of the plot summary still isn't right. It currently reads: "Price warns Nikolai that they will be pursued and insists Soap receive medical attention; Nikolai says he knows a place to take them." Price doesn't warn Nikolai that they will be pursued, it's the other way around. Here's a recording of the final mission in the game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1xWJnwcOE8. I quote from the recording.

Price: "I thought I told you this was a one-way trip."

Nikolai: "Looks like it still is, they'll be looking for us you know."

Price: "Nikolai, we gotta get Soap out of here."

Nikolai: "Da, I know a place."

I think it should read: "Nikolai warns Price that they will be pursued, but Price insists that Soap receive medical attention; Nikolai says he knows a safe place to take them." Splew (talk) 22:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. That makes more sense to me too. -- ҚЯĀŽΨÇÉV 13  other crap 22:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll change it.Splew (talk) 22:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right... that way my bad. I could have sworn it was Price, but I just checked it out on youtube... and sure enough... Thanks! --Austin de Rossi (talk) 22:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * No problem, it wasn't a big thing anyways.Splew (talk) 23:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Whiskey Hotel
Is the "Whiskey Hotel" the White House or something?--Rollersox (talk) 22:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Whiskey Hotel is "W" and "H" in the NATO phonetic alphabet. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 22:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Some articles on the Japanese MW2 release
http://kotaku.com/5415904/gamers-not-happy-with-japanese-modern-warfare-2 (Controversy on Japanese dub)

http://kotaku.com/5416505/modern-warfare-2-came-this-close-to-a-perfect-famitsu-score (Reception of MW2 in Japan)

Wondering if its okay to add these. Same with the articles I got on its link to NCIS. Ominae (talk) 00:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just read somewhere that the English Wikipedia only mentions release dates for countries/areas where English is a predominant language. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 00:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Know that. I thought the two are interesting since the first one is interesting for the dubbing changed the meaning of stuff, especially the "No Russian" part where Makarov says in Japanese to kills the Russians from "No Russian". Other one is for a Western game having one point from a perfect score next to GTA 4. Ominae (talk) 01:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, my mistake. I thought you were wanting to add the Japanese release date. Sorry. Got a ton of other stuff distracting me. Now I've read it, the Kotaku article seems like it's worth a mention. I haven't read the Famitsu thing because that got removed this morning. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 01:05, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Uh...what happened to the page?
The page is like...all messed up and stuff. I mean, just look at it. Wasn't the plot supposed to be after the multiplayer, cooperative stuff? And the ratings are actually in the real article, as well as the gamepad things.--Rollersox (talk) 04:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind...but the plot is still before the actual multiplayer things. Or is it supposed to be like that and I'm going cuckoo?--Rollersox (talk) 04:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, who re-ordered it? It was fine the way it was before. The gameplay section always comes before the synopsis section, that's the way it is in all Wikipedia game articles (at least the good ones anyway). I'm gonna change it back.Splew (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's back to the way it was before now.Splew (talk) 17:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

NCIS thing
Is this really notable enough to warrant its own section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.185.194 (talk) 20:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * NCIS doesn't have it's own section... the game's impact does though, and at this time that is all that has been found. you are welcome to add to it as is expected to happen eventually. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 21:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Add Japan to "No Russian" controversy?
http://360.kombo.com/article.php?artid=17919 Basically "Remember, No Russian." was incorrectly translated to "Kill them; they are Russians." which makes sense in scope of the level, but confusing in terms of plot (which doesn't need any help being confusing). Apparently players are pretty ticked off about it. I was going to add this because it is controversy surround the mission, but it is for a different reason then the other countries. What do you think? --Austin de Rossi (talk) 23:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Look up to "Some articles on the Japanese MW2 release." Better source, too. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 23:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's 1up reporting the same thing: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3177160 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Austinrh (talk • contribs) 23:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 1up and Kotaku will probably do for citations. Never heard of kombo, though. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 23:47, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not at popular, but it has already been used for citations in the MW2 article. (Remember to sign... sigh..) --Austin de Rossi (talk) 00:20, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Shephard
Shouldn't you write that Soap chased Shephard through a dusty whirlwind-type of weather? Or is that being too specific?--Rollersox (talk) 02:42, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Not relevant to the plot. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 03:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Dollar value
In the article, sales value reached $550 million. Can we clarify if it is USD$ or some other form of the dollar —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeokaiwei (talk • contribs) 16:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * An American developer and an American publisher, so almost certainly USD. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 16:15, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Titles and Emblems Guide
One of the most popular questions online right now is where to find a guide that directs people how to get the titles and emblems online. I have found a guide which gives many pointers and tips and adds many answers to countless questions currently plaguing the Internet in relation to these titles and emblems. Could someone add this to the external links section of the Modern Warfare 2 page?

http://www.helium.com/items/1651221-call-of-duty-modern-warfare-2-online-unlockables-guide —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrBake123 (talk • contribs) 11:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a game guide, per WP:GAMECRUFT. Razr95 (talk) 15:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I don't know why people want to keep adding game guide content to this article. This is an encyclopedia. If you want a good online game guide, go here: http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Call_of_Duty:_Modern_Warfare_2. Splew (talk) 18:37, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Got word of MW2 console set in XBOX 360 for Japan
No need to mention this right? Got a link for this. Ominae (talk) 02:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

"No Russian" Mission -- No shooting civilians
Does anyone know of a list of countries where the level is playable, but the player is unable to shoot civilians? It is apparently true of the Japanese and German version, but right now we only have it listed under the Japanese sub-header of the "No Russian" mission. I feel like this is important to include, but it shouldn't be singled out just under the Japanese version as if they are an exception. I think it needs to be mentioned separately and have a complete list of countries where this is true. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 14:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * (facepalm) That's just moronic... especially given the mistranslation... Regardless, I think it should be mentioned under Japan for now, but when sources about other countries emerge, split them into a new section. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 16:17, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Really? "Moronic"? My "good faith" opinion of how to keep the article organized and balanced is "moronic" to you? How about coming down off your high-horse and adding a constructive comment falcon? [loses all respect for an otherwise great editor] --Austin de Rossi (talk) 19:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What the...? Not you! The censors! If I'd thought in any way that it could be misinterpreted, I would have made it clearer. My apologies for causing offence. What I meant was that the censors are moronic. What's even the point in playing the level now? That was what I meant. I have no issue with you at all. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 19:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh... thank god! That totally didn't seem like something you would do! Thanks for the clarification. [respect restored] --Austin de Rossi (talk) 19:40, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. I was a bit worried there. By the way, loved your edit summary for that last comment. I'd wuv wu too, but my girlfriend might not understand. :P -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 19:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha! Well I felt I had to make up for the "eff u" from the previous comment. ;p

Anywho, back to business. The reference that was cited by the user stated that the Japan and German version both have this restriction (I am quite certain there are more), but do you think it is worth adding an entire section for Germany just to state this, or would it be better to make one section and list all countries that are restricted in this way (assuming we find sources)? Hope that makes sense. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said, add it back to Japan for now. I'd say leave a hidden note about Germany explaining that it's the same there. If you can find even one more country, move them into a separate section. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 20:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ And when I have some time I'll look for some more sources to find out what other countries have this restriction. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * So I've done some searching around, and for now it seems that version(s) published by SquareEnix and the version sold in Germany allow the "No Russian" level as long as the player does not shoot civilians. Most of these reports are from the last few days and have requested comment from Activision, or are just generally not positive what the situation is. So, what is certain is that Japan and Germany are censored, but beyond that it is wait and see. I'm going to add Germany to the list under "No Russian" header, and I'll keep any eye out for any more articles about this. If it turnes out there are more countries censored this way then I think we can movie it under a separate header as discussed above. --Austin de Rossi (talk) 05:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice work guys. I remember that I added a statement from Square Enix regarding their statement on the dub/translation errors. Ominae (talk) 00:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Soap
Hey is Soap modeled after Johnny Messner in Tears of the sun? Mallerd (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Is the shower room based on The Rock? Original research. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 21:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not what the fuck I'm asking. Damn wikipediaphile. Mallerd (talk) 02:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * When "what the fuck" were you asking? I pointed out that it was original research. You want speculation? Go here or find a forum. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 02:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it was a reasonable question, and it didn't seem like OR, merely him asking if they were based on one another. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 10:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If he's expecting it to be in the article, then it's original research without a reliable source asking the same question. If he's not expecting it to be in the article, then he's using the talk page as a forum. Both are against policy. -- Thejadefalcon <sup style="color:#03C03C;">Sing your song <sub style="color:#00A550;">The bird's seeds 13:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Nuclear submarine in Russia
Which class of the nuclear submarine which TF141 hijack in Russia? Is it a Typhoon class submarine?-AM (talk) 15:29, 3 June 2010 (UTC)