Talk:Camargue horse

Proposed merger
First message moved here from Camargue Horses:-
 * Couldn't this page be merged with the "Camargue (horse)" page? They both have the same information and seem to be dealing with the same horse breed.Morgana 11:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Support - and I've clarified the proposal to merge here under the singular name (as naming convention). --Mereda 10:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC) good idea! it would make finding infomation on the region and the horses at the same time much easier!-Bex

dasy
the camargue horse is a french breed.

Photos
Is there any way to better incorporate some of the photos from the french page? The main photo, specificly, is much more discriptive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tecolson (talk • contribs) 04:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, probably. Someone just needs to move the photo from French wikipedia to Commons.  As long as the copyright stuff is OK, it will be incorporated and made accessible to everyone.  Once there, any wikiproject (including this one) can link to the photo. If you or anyone else can do it, that would be terrific!!!  Montanabw (talk) 18:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a big problem with the photo on this article. It suggest that Camargue come from Rambouillet forest next to Paris, it's an insult for people from Camargue who are breeding this horse since antiquity. It's like saying that Mustang horse are from from east of U.S, or saying that Connemara pony is from London... Please change the photo. Thanks. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 23:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Go ahead and check the source material and if you have a better, more reliable source, fix it! (that said, the Mustang actually developed from Spanish stock, and so did several east coast feral breeds, but that's beside the point) And as far as the photo goes, go over to commons and if there's a better quality one, change it.  (Just don't use the ugly ones!)   Montanabw (talk) 17:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Done. Heres's sources :

Since 2003, three "appellations" exist to identify Camargue horses :
 * Camargue : "Désigne les chevaux inscrits au stud book du cheval Camargue, nés et identifiés dans le berceau de la race, appartenant à une manade et ayant reçu la marque à feu avant le sevrage."


 * Traduction : Only animals in stud-book, born and identified in Camargue area (berceau de race) and from a manade can be called "Camargue horse".


 * Camargue hors manade : "Désigne les animaux inscrits au studbook du cheval Camargue, nés et identifiés dans le berceau de race mais n’appartenant pas à une manade."


 * Traduction : For animals in stud-book, born and identified in Camargue area (berceau de race) and not from a manade.


 * Camargue hors berceau : "Désigne les animaux inscrits au studbook du cheval Camargue, et nés hors du berceau de race."


 * Traduction : For animals in stud-book, born and identified out of Camargue area (berceau de race)

Source for this : http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/portail/uploads/tx_vm19hnreglementation/reglement_camargue_18aout2004.pdf : Stud-Book of Camargue horse.

This is like an Appellation d'origine contrôlée (source=Jocelyne Bonnet, La fabrication des mythes: Une approche ethno-historique du cheval camarguais : Thèse d'ethnologie (ethnological university work), Université Montpellier III, http://alor.univ-montp3.fr/eurides/articles/camargue.pdf. Saying to Camargue people that their horse come from another land is a cause of diplomatical accident. Thanks. Tsaag Valren (talk) 22:45, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Not sure how to integrate these, my French is nonexistent. How about you put in the material in the proper places, with proper footnotes, and then I can clean up your English grammer and syntax.  Would that work?  That said, I know nationalistic and regional sentiments run high, but reality sometimes interferes -- for example, we had a great hue and cry when sourcing scientific evidence proving that the "absolutely pure for the last 10,000 years" Andalusian horse was in fact crossbred with the Barb (horse).  (grin)   Montanabw (talk) 20:59, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

and what is a "manade?" Google language says it translates ranch, but I suspect your use is more specific. Montanabw (talk) 21:03, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, I will do that this evening. Manade is a regional word for groups of horses (with 1 stallion and 4 mares, their foals or more, but not sure for this number) who are breed in half-freedom. Camargue horse have been crossed with barb too. Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks to you Montana --Tsaag Valren (talk) 17:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Help me understand "manade" better. Is this a word for some sort of government licensed farm, or do they just run loose all over the place (like maybe the New Forest pony or is it just a local word for "little feral herd that runs loose in a big pasture but no one really takes care of them?" I'm still puzzling why Google language translated it as ranch, unless they both are sort of open range. Explain??   Montanabw (talk) 08:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Outch, for me to explain what is a manade in english it's very hard. Google translate is my friend : "A manade (Prov. Manado) is a free herd of bulls, cows or horses led by a gardian, especially in the Camargue. The herd is led by manadier, also referred to as "baile" in Provencal. The herds are mainly prevalent in the Crau, in the Camargue in Provence, or in the Petite Camargue Languedoc. The word "manade", used to herd livestock, formerly designated as the herds of sheep". So, this word is just used in Camargue area, but semi-feral horses and bulls are just found in this area (Pottok in pays Basque, only other semi-ferals horse in France, can't be compared to Camargue horse in any way and also have specific terminology from Basque language). When the word "manade" is used it is automatically linked with the Camargue area. And it is a word from provençal, of course, but "francised" (original is "manado"). In Camargue area, manades are registrered and each one attempts to have good performances in "shows", bull-games, etc... You have the list in article fr:Manade --Tsaag Valren (talk) 17:04, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * So, to be informal, a manade is a term only used in the Camargue area to describe a small herd of horses (one stallion and his mares), that are overseen by a person who herds them around in open country, sort of like a shepherd with a herd of sheep? Are they on private land and privately owned by individuals, or are they on government land and owned by the government (or a mix of both? Privately owned but running on public land...?? or...?) Montanabw (talk) 05:26, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Own mainly by individuals --Tsaag Valren (talk) 18:24, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, so maybe check out New Forest pony and tell me if the Camargue horse is sort of managed the same way (privately owned, turned out to run loose on public land, some caretakers providing minimal care except in a crisis ...? ).  Montanabw (talk) 22:29, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's that, with a little difference : each horse from a manade in Camargue area have a specific "logo" for branding, it is used to recognize the horses away and identify them, and for help each owner to recognise his horses from the horses of his neighbor. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 20:37, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Ahh! See livestock branding Are the Camargues branded like cattle ranches in the US, where each owner has a unique brand, and it puts the same brand on all its animals, or more like the Mustangs in the US, where each individual animal is branded with a unique number that specifically identifies that particular horse??? Montanabw (talk) 00:33, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Each have a unique brand used for both cattle and horses. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 11:33, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Prehistoric claims
I tagged the prehistory claims as "dubious" and tossed the Okie State ref, which is generally not a RS for this sort of thing. The reason I did this is that practically every landrace breed anywhere close to Lascaux ("close" as in within 100 miles or so, it seems ... :-P ) loves to claim prehistoric ancestry, even though this flies in the face of current DNA studies. I'm perfectly open to peer-reviewed journal claims for antiquity of origin, properly sourced (in English) but not to the ancestral stock being chased by cavemen, which is, as far as I have studied, completely unprovable. The other "cn" tags just are that, stuff that needs sources -- some may be perfectly legitimate, but the bit about the jaca and the Americas seems a bit sketchy to me, hence the tag. Montanabw (talk) 23:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice! That whole section looks like wall-to-wall OR to me. Only question is, is it Wikipedia OR, or OR in some verifiable outside source(s)? I'll try to look at the French article in the next few days, see what's there. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sometimes the material IS accurate, it's just finding a written source for it that's a bear. Other times, like the paleolithic claims, it's just wishful thinking on the part of breed enthusiasts and can be pitched without remorse.  So far, the best I can tell, EVERYONE's favorite breed is faster than a speeding bullet and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound (grin).  Hence, while we usually are OK to let the breed registry define the conformation standard and their own historical development, when you get more than about 25 years prior to the founding of the registry, their history usually needs to be taken with several grains of salt and leavened with several independent sources, particularly peer-reviewed ones, where they exist!  Montanabw (talk) 05:24, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Copy-editing
redoing the summary to avoid flamboyant and inaccuracies and deleting sentences that links to other pages expand upon. basic clear up and adding the information from the french article. This is being done in stages and things may be moved around. I feel that the camargue terminology isnt all relevant to the breed of horse and should be moved down the page and replaced with characteristics. palinodial 13:24, 24th July 2012


 * You edits removed sourced material and material others have copied from Fr. Wiki. I am restructuring your work, but will keep the relevant points, properly phrased (the translation doesn't use some typical equine terminology) per the guidelines of the horse breeds task force of WikiProject Equine.  Terminology can be quite relevant, but characteristics are also relevant, it isn't a zero sum game.  Montanabw (talk) 19:29, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I realise this but I'm not sure that the language is appropriate as well sourced as it is. I dot mind restructure but Im not sure its beneficial in understanding and absorbing the information. when trying to work out if you have something typical of the breed quickly and efficiently I'm sure markers such a head legs etc would be beneficial. This is especially important when there is such an abundance of adjectives. If this is due to the equine style then I shall bring it up with the wiki project. If a table is more preferable then that would be better too.

In accordance to the paragraphs I think short paragraphs should be avoided but here it doesnt make sense to keep them as one paragraph as they are on two subtopics of the horse and it does not follow on from the one before. If i am to add more to the paragraph on gardians in the summary then so be it but yet again i think this would help with the absorption of info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Palinodial (talk • contribs) 09:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Bless your heart, but English appears to not be your first language. Let those of us who know horses and are familiar with WP:MOS handle that end.  Any additional sources you can provide will be more than welcome!  My understanding is that what has been added is basically correct, but may need improved sourcing.  We have crystal clear and longstanding guidelines for all the horse breed articles at the Horse Breeds task force section of WP:EQUINE, and if you want to see an article that meets the Featured article criteria for en.wiki, see Percheron.  We never do "listy" sections on breed characteristics, they are narrative in form, and this is the preferred method through wikipedia.  (Again, see WP:MOS)  I am glad you are adding more material, but I also will work to make sure it flows well and is written in English and with the proper terminology for horse articles.   Montanabw (talk) 18:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Just because I have written upon two french articles and am translating is by no means to say I am not of English origin. English was and has always been my first language and I reside in England. Secondly I have grown up around horses my entire life and have spent god knows how many hours reading about, talking about and spending time with them. Therefore I would appreciate it if you lost the condescending attitude. My english issues atm might be due to having spilt creme di cassis over my keyboard so have taken out some of the keys for the moment.


 * I don't need to justify either of that to you though as we aren't talking about a subject that either of us has a doctorate level knowledge in, what we are talking about is writing and your writing style is focused on pointlessly beautifying text which leads to confusing, long sentences and paragraphs. You use constant peacock terms and are consistently flamboyant in the way you write. An article is not a narrative, it is a report and will always take that style, it should be focused on communicating the most information in the most comfortable and accessible way and personally I fully believe that the french style sheet is much nicer to absorb information from. Personally the one bit of information I want to know about breeds is their height and I think this should be put in the infobox features more than colour and conformation as a shire may have conformation like a stocky cob but its 17hh height says otherwise.


 * I know this isn't the place to have such a discussion but don't really want to spoil your talk page so I will delete this after a few days. I realise your reputation is a lot higher than mine but we should treat each other as equals with equal quality of ideas in theory.

Palinodial (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, this IS the place to have this conversation. I see you have only been a user for four days, so you have a lot to learn, but you'll get there. I will grant that missing keys on the computer could explain why the translation that came up on your last edit sounded like what Google translate does, ("brow"?  Really?)  But please don't compound the problem by accusing me of not knowing what I am doing (42,000 edits to wiki over 6 years is a crucible that I actually recommend for anyone wanting to do a lot of writing.) The point is that wikipedia is an encyclopedia, neither a "report", a college term paper, nor a magazine.  If you have read the Wikipedia Manual of Style (MOS), you will note that prose narratives are preferred over bulleted lists, and if you disagree, please take it up somewhere other than this article, and then, if you prevail in changing the recommendations in the MOS, then you can help us all change the other 350+ horse breed articles on wiki to fit.  On this article, I did not insert flamboyant words, (and accusations like "constant" are inflammatory - please read Assume good faith)  I merely edited words of others, and previously have toned down a lot, actually.  I often "search and destroy" excess adjectives.    There is a need for better style here, but until the sourcing is better, it is better to just clean up what exists.  Edit away, do not be surprised if I refine what you have done, it's actually one of the best ways to edit wikipedia.   Montanabw (talk) 22:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

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