Talk:Cambodian–Vietnamese War

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 October 2019 and 13 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Thhsalgado.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:36, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Recent Revisions 12/23
I attempted to bring a measure of clarity and organization to the page that I felt was lacking (it was also a class assignment). That said, I realize that I need to work out all of the absent citations in order to legitimize the information. However, I'm still very new to Wikipedia, and felt completely lost encountering the system of references in the paper. The red error flags in the reference portion seem due to the fact that I erased some of the corresponding text. But I don't quite understand how to fix that. I'd appreciate any help or suggestions. Over the next few days I will begin to insert all of my citations and finish cleaning up brackets, etc. [User:IR393.awc211|IR393.awc211]] (talk) 06:24, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Lack of Academic References
This article should be taken with a grain of salt. Its totally lacking foot notes and other references.

-Bill Sept 22, 2007

True - The whole 'they started it' argument looks a lot like the one that China uses for their 'counter attack' against Vietnam, or at least it would if we were talking about anyone but Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge.

52.000 kill, 200.000 wounded, HAHA. total number of VN troops in Cambodia from 1979 to 1989 about 300,000 Bui Tin is a former officer with the last save ideas against Comunist. His data did not reliably116.99.43.158 (talk) 12:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this a proper title?
I'm not sure about it. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 13:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Shouldnt this war (Cambodian-Vietnamese War 1975-1989) be called the Third Indo-China War because it began before the Sino-Vietnamese war in 1979. The Sino Vietnamese war should be considered the Fourth Indo China War not the third. Thats my opinion does anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.2.82 (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I argree with you, Cambodian–Vietnamese should be 3rd war, and Sino-Vietnamese would be the 4th war. 98.119.158.59 (talk) 20:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Later phase of war/US support for Khmer Rouge
This article sort of fades out at the end. An interesting sidenote to make would be of the US's support for KR forces later on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.56.120 (talk) 13:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I may be wrong but I highly doubt the US supported a communist regime in the middle of the Cold War. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.2.82 (talk) 22:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * They did. Although it was less 'pro-Khmer Rouge' than 'anti-Vietnam and USSR'. Also, in this period the US was trying to improve their relationship with China and since China was supporting the Khmer, the US did too. Avmarle (talk) 09:03, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Miacek's revert
Miacek, I would argue that the genocide ceased because of the invasion, not despite it. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 03:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Vietnamese occupation definitely ended the KR genocide. The wording 'despite ...' referred to the fact that Cambodia remained occupied throughout 1980s, which was the reason (or pretext) for Western countries for arming KR cutthroats. Whether or not such arguments of diehard anti-Vietnamese commentators/statesmen made sense is not the matter of this intro. Feel free to re-word the passages in the article so as to raise the quality of the text. -- Miacek and his crime-fighting dog ( woof! ) 14:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Someone here said that the US wouldn't support a communist regime in the middle of the Cold War. More accurate to say that they wouldn't support a Russian-backed regime in the middle of the Cold War. The Khmer Rouge was allied with China, and yes, the US supported them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.227.228.186 (talk) 18:21, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. -- Miacek and his crime-fighting dog ( woof! ) 15:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Classical case of the enemy of your enemy being, well, not precisely your friend. Also, in those days the US would probably have supported anybody against Vietnam.

Is this right?
"With the direct Chinese support lost after Vietnamese recapitulation, the Khmer Rouge..."

I am confused. Surely the Vietnamese did not [re]capitulate. According to the rest of the article the Khmer Rouge capitulated. Forgive me if I have misunderstood but it makes no sense that the Vietnamese capitulated - again according to the rest of the article. I am just unsure as to whether I have the knowledge to correct the article myself.

If I am mistaken, the end of this article needs to be rewritten to match the main body. Then maybe I am just missing something"

W1 m2 (talk) 21:32, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. RHM22 (talk) 19:42, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Cambodian–Vietnamese War → Cambodian-Vietnamese War — I do not believe that the endash is appropriate for the title, as it should not represent a range. For this reason, I believe it ought to replaced with a hyphen. RHM22 (talk) 18:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.



Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * Isn't there a moratorium in place on such moves? Powers T 11:33, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard of that, but it may be true. Even if there is, I don't see why this move would not be acceptable, as it seems to be fairly cut and dry.-RHM22 (talk) 14:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * See Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard. You may interested in adding your opinion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/dash drafting where I think you will find that this sort of move is not cut and dry. Jenks24 (talk) 14:56, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I see what you mean now. Per the Arbitration Committee discussion linked above, this move request has been closed for now.-RHM22 (talk) 19:42, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article should be split
IMHO, we could have two separate articles : one about the Cambodian-Vietnamese war of 1978-1979 (all of the Khmer rouge government) which deserves its own page, and one about the continuing conflict, starting in 1978, going on until the 1991 peace talks, then resuming after the 1993 elections and ending with the Khmer rouge defeat in 1998-1999 (Ta Mok's capture in 1999 being the last blow to the movement). Also, it is a bit misleading to call the conflict going on until 1989 a "Cambodian-Vietnamese war". It sure was in 1978-1979, but in 1979-1989, it was Vietnam and the Vietnamese-supported cambodian government vs the Khmer rouge and their allies. So it was more a "Cambodian/Vietnamese-Cambodian war". Also, since the conflict continued after Vietnam's withdrawal, it is also misleading to have it end in 1989, if we change the current title. IMHO, Cambodian-Vietnamese war should be about the 1978-1979 campaign, and the rest of the conflict should appear under a different title. Maybe Conflit in Cambodia (1978-1999) ? Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:28, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with this article remain as a whole, because in Vietnam they refer to the period between 1978 and 1989 as the 'South-western Border Campaign', but I'd rather rename this article the 'Cambodian War'. Everything that happened after 1991 certainly deserved a separate article.Canpark (talk) 14:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, of course it may be referred as a whole, but the 1979 invasion of Cambodia is certainly a different campaign than what took place after that, until 1989, so it deserves a separate article. Vietnam invading the whole country is definitely something else than a 'South-western Border Campaign'. Anyway, dedicating separate articles to specific aspects of a war, when they are relevant, is standard practice on wikipedia. If you like, we may have three articles, with the 1978-79 invasion, the 1979-1989 (or 1979-1991) action and the later phases of the conflit (1993-1999), although the last could also remain as a whole. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 11:53, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Date
I tried to edit the date of the war with the beginning of the Vietnamese invasion in December 25 1978 and the end of the Vietnamese withdraw in February 26 1990. Can someone tell me why it is not an acceptable edit? --124.148.127.77 (talk) 10:17, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

United Front for the Liberation of Oppressed Races
Even while United Front for the Liberation of Oppressed Races was being crushed, attacked, and persecuted by the Khmer Rouge, it persisted in fighting against Vietnam, with Chinese support.

http://chamtoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79%3Achuyevuiboltarie&catid=37&Itemid=1

http://www.chamtoday.com/index.php/history-l-ch-s/79-post-fulro-events-1975-2004

http://www.chamtoday.com/index.php/history-l-ch-s/80-from-the-f-l-m-to-fulro-1955-1975

http://books.google.com/books?id=2_zKFyHlBk0C&pg=PA262#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=xAKbllE5bioC&pg=PA255#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=CgwOi-5JrBYC&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=BtmrZYAag58C&pg=PA97#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.chamtoday.com/index.php/91-news-world/139-vietnam-s-hidden-hand-in-cambodia-s-impasse

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/SEA-02-091013.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=ehCWYZ13SPsC&pg=PA101&dq=montagnard+genocide+chams&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NpTYUoy3NdWksQT74ICgCw&ved=0CDUQ6wEwAQ#v=onepage&q=montagnard%20genocide%20chams&f=false

Montagnard insurgency against Vietnam
http://books.google.com/books?id=xAKbllE5bioC&pg=PA255#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.montagnard-foundation.org/comm-070402.html

http://montagnard-foundation.org/wp/2011/07/08/1458

http://books.google.com/books?id=YmQJV_wT5EIC&pg=PT23&dq=montagnard+genocide&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mEj5UsTKKqrJ0gGCyoCoCA&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=montagnard%20genocide&f=false

http://www.mhro.org/montangards-history/conclusions

http://www.unpo.org/members/7898

http://chamtoday.com/index.php/ngonngu/77-the-uprising-of-the-central-highlanders-in-february-2001

http://www.degarfoundation.org/

Rajmaan (talk) 05:28, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Help with stub: Kingdom of Cambodia (1975-76)
Hello, I noticed there was a gap in the former states of Cambodia so I created Kingdom of Cambodia (1975-76); any help in expanding this stub would be much appreciated. Cheers, walk victor falktalk 04:49, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

United States national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski openly and unashamedly admitted that he told China and Thailand to support Khmer Rouge because it was anti-Soviet
United States national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski openly and unashamedly admitted that he told China and Thailand to support Khmer Rouge because it was anti-Soviet

http://books.google.com/books?id=7i0jGxysUUcC&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 03:16, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No, he didn't. Just one of several made-up quotations conspiracy theorists have invented to libel Brzezinski.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:28, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


 * conversation continued hereRajmaan (talk) 18:38, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


 * oh yes he did! absolutely no evidence exists that the quote is fraudulent. the quote is plausible and the source (Becker's recorded interview) is credible.Guccisamsclub (talk) 00:49, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Chemical Weapons against the Resistance (dubious source deleted)
The source for this claim, a short article titled "SEVENTY YEARS OF EVIL: Soviet Crimes from Lenin to Gorbachev" in an American conservative publication, has absolutely no credibility whatsoever. It is clearly non-specialist, propagandistic, horribly biased, and wastes no time on things like "footnotes" and "evidence". Some of the claims in there are true of course, but all propaganda contains truth to make the distortions and lies more credible. It's exactly like citing Pravda. But this is standard fare for en.wikipedia.org. The title itself is ridiculous, implying that every "communist" leader from Lenin to Gorbachev was a mass murderer. Let's check out one of its supposed "crimes of Communism": "August 28, 1977 - Two years earlier, CBS News reports that some 7,000 lobotomies were performed on Soviet citizens to cure patients of “wrong political belief.” " I hope no comment is necessary here. This source will be deleted.Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:13, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

650,000 famine deaths after the fall of Pol Pot
discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Khmer_Rouge#650.2C000_famine_deaths_after_the_fall_of_Pol_Pot Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:26, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

NPOV: Internal resistance to the new regime
Tag pertains to the section, not the entire article.

- huge numbers of victims are deduced from a dated, biased, rushed, and error-ridden CIA report.

- demographically impossible (using most sources) 650,000 famine deaths reported as fact.

- chemical weapons reported as fact from a laughably unreliable, non-documented, and non-specialist source.

- virtually all sources share a severe anti-PKK bias, which leads to strong and dubious claims being presented as fact. almost no discussion from more neutral or sympathetic observers.

- Etcheson's damning discussion of the K-5 Plan is cited, but is misrepresented using inflammatory language to advance a POV. Military conscription becomes "enslavement" and the hardships of working on the front line (disease, land-mines, military attacks) turns into being worked to death. As usual, one estimate of the number of victims is presented as fact without discussion. The K-5 plan should be discussed, but without inflammatory POV-laden language.

- PKK's anti-KR struggle is only mentioned once, with the KR being presented as the victims.

- etc, but I don't have the time to list them all.Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:37, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

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US support for DK according to the sources
It's widely known and reported that the US provided money, intelligence and materiel to first the Khmer Rouge and then the DK "coalition". Between 1980 and 1986 the US funneled over $85 million to Pol Pot alone. They provided food and "humanitarian aide" to Khmer Rouge held territories/camps and provided satellite intelligence, military strategic planning and other war materiel to the DK coalition. After 1986, Congress approved another $26 million to fund "the resistance" in Cambodia. Here's an article in The Statesman. Much of the previously classified documentation was made public by Wikileaks. Here's a summary by Ben Norton. Here's another article describing the US support for the DK (remember: the war was between the Vietnamese and the resistance coalition, which included more that just the Khmer Rouge). A quote from that article: "U.S. funding to the KPNLF and ANS armies allied with the Khmer Rouge was handled by a working group composed of representatives from the United States, Singapore, Thailand and Malaysia. CIA satellite intelligence was provided, as were weapons..."--William Thweatt TalkContribs 04:36, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * None of your sources (political commentator John Pilger, who had to pay libel damages for his claims about British support for the Khmer Rouge, far-left newsletter CounterPunch, et al.) are reliable for the fringe, exceptional claim that the CIA gave the Khmer Rouge "satellite intelligence." I've seen no reliable sources that state the CIA gave the non-communist opposition "satellite intelligence"—let alone the Khmer Rouge directly!TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:17, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I'm aware of the quality of the sources -- that's why I listed them here instead of trying to ram them into the article. The information was classified and outright denied by the US government at the time and was only made public through wikileaks. With current events dominating the modern news cycle, I don't really expect mainstream outlets to cover this bit of "news" from 30+ years ago. So we have what we have and I'm aware it may never get into Wikipedia. (Also, the libel damages were paid to two specific individual former SAS members whose images appeared in a television documentary; the judgement was not for his claim of British support of the Khmer Rouge.)
 * Secondly, I think some of us are hung up on the Khmer Rouge angle of it. Listing the US as a supporter of the DK faction doesn't require proof that the US supported the KR. The Cambodian-Vietnamese War (the subject of this article) was between Vietnam/FUNSK and a coalition made up of everybody else, including the Khmer Rouge, but also the KPNLF and FUNCINPEC, grouped under the CGDK/Democratic Kampuchea umbrella. Whether the US gave aid, at anytime between 1977 and 1991, to the KR, the KPNLF or Sihanouk, they were coming down on the side of Democratic Kampuchea against the PRK. The quoted article says the US gave intelligence and weapons to the anti-communist KPNLF, not the Khmer Rouge. No doubt they fully expected them to be shared, however. The US and China were among the most vocal supporters of giving the Cambodian UN seat to the DK and were very anti-Vietnamese and anti-Soviet. It is naive to think that they didn't also provide covert support to the opposition.
 * With that in mind, look at the last paragraph of this section: Khmer People's National Liberation Front. I won't bother to quote it, but there are sourced statements indicating the US gave money and weapons to the KPNLF in the 80s which qualifies it to be added as a supporter of the DK side in the war.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 07:02, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You make a reasonable argument about the infobox dispute, which I have not yet taken a firm stance on.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 07:13, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Name change
I suggest the article's name to change to Khmer Rouge-Vietnamese War. The 1979 war and subsequent insurgency is between KR forces and Vietnam, not between the people or government of Cambodia and Vietnam. The People's Republic of Cambodia was on Vietnamese side and fought consistenly. The same of Vietnam War cannot be simply called "American-Vietnamese War". Sgnpkd (talk) 11:56, 8 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The Vietnam War was only against some of the Vietnamese forces. Many wars are named as such. At any rate, I find no sources using the proposed name. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 14:22, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree. Smallchief (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose any name change. A nation is controlled by whatever group is in power, at the time Cambodia was controlled by the Khmer Rouge. Agree with Laszlo Panaflex that no WP:RS use that name Mztourist (talk) 04:18, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The naming of articles is based more on what reliable sources call an event as opposed to pure factual accuracy and precision. Sure, the Glorious Revolution would be more accurately described as "1688 Dutch invasion of England", but nobody calls it that. Likewise, "Khmer Rouge-Vietnamese War" may be somewhat more accurate, but nobody calls it that. ansh 666 19:54, 9 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose name change per Laszlo and Ansh666. WP:COMMONNAME states that we should use the most common name that is used on reliable sources. No such sources was provided for the proposed new name. Pandakekok9 (talk) 04:51, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Romania should be removed from the infobox
Romania should be removed from the infobox as a supporter of DK. I tried to do it but I just can't make the Wiki syntax function.

The reason for removal is that Romania was just one of the many countries (most of the countries represented in the UN), which continued to recognize the Khmer Rouge/DK regime diplomatically. They didn't offer any material support, unlike Singapore and Thailand which are rightly listed there.Potugin (talk) 12:32, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I've reverted the article to a state where there are no referencing errors. In this state, I don't see Romania in the infobox. FWIW, we don't remove material from Wikipedia just because we don't like it -- material must be verifiable and should be referenced. -- Mikeblas (talk) 17:10, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Nah, Romania currently is included under "Supported by" section. It's surely not my browser doing tricks, right? Also, I understand that you're an editor since 2005 and I was just a reader back then, but well, my point is, there is no source for Romania as offering any kind of support in any meaningful sense for DK. Most UN states recognized the Khmer Rouge DK regime, just like Romania, but we are not gonna list all these 77 countries under "Democratic Kampuchea - Supported by:" section. So I still think my point stands. Potugin (talk) 17:23, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:44, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Cambodia–Vietnam Friendship Monument.jpg

Quick question on the sources
It could be naive, but is it a problem for the references on this page? for example the reference "Mei p. 78" for "The following day, China announced that it would not move deeper into Vietnam, apparently after meeting unexpectedly harsh resistance by well-trained Vietnamese forces equipped with Soviet and captured American weapons. Furthermore, Vietnam's politburo had ordered a general mobilization and begun planning for full conscription. The Chinese subsequently withdrew their forces"

I mean, where to find the source of "Mei p. 78"? Thanks :-) 142.68.85.220 (talk) 13:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Persistent Vandalism by 反共抗獨光復民國
This page is persistently being vandalized by User:反共抗獨光復民國, who seems to believe Canada supported the Khmer Rouge for some reason. The sources they keep inserting do not support this conclusion:

- One is a report of a vote at the U.N. related to Cambodia where Canada is not mentioned in the article.

- The second is from the autobipgraphy of a Canadian diplomat. In the passage the diplomat compares the Khmer Rouge to the Nazis; it's unclear how this constitutes support for them.

Please revert and report any edits by this user. Loquacious Folly (talk) 04:23, 10 July 2023 (UTC)