Talk:Cambodian cuisine/Archive 1

Old discussions
Not all dishes need an article of their on, the only ones that I feel should have their own article are the ones that are well known like Prahok. Something like Bi Cha I feel should be deleted because it is basically fried rice. I've also changed some of the fruit names from their Khmer name to the common English name, but I have no idea what "milk fruit" is called in English, so I just left it as is.

Also about links, it looks like someone has been using that section for self promotion, so I am cleaning that up. Wikipedia is not a place for advertisement. --Hecktor 01:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If the dishes don't deserve an article on their own, but they are still worth mentioning in the main main article, you can just redirect them instead of deleting them. Kappa 04:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

TITLE TRANSLATED INTO KHMER LANGUAGE AND FONT
I've translated "Cambodian Cuisine" into Khmer language and font using Huffman and Proum's English Khmer Dictionary, and added that to the first paragraph. But I can already think of two reasons to revisit what I've added:

Firstly, I've taken cuisine to mean "cookery", not simply food. I think I'm right in that, but it clashes with the current first paragraph.

Secondly, the phrase that Huffman and Proum use for both "cookery" and "cuisine" (and which I've used here) is to some extent literary or elegant - word for word it could be translated back into English as "Magic in the field of making food". But maybe that's cool. "Cuisine" is a vaguely literary and elegant word in English. And I like the idea of alchemy in the kitchen. Munchnsnack (talk) 17:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the title is sort of out of place. The one right now is literally the art of khmer food, I prefer ប្រពៃណីធ្វើម្ហូបខ្មែរ.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.146.211 (talk) 02:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's actually a really good idea, kudos to you. I feel the use of សិល្បៈ to describe "cuisine" in Khmer gives the impression that cookery is truly an art form just like apsara, silk weaving, and stone sculpture. Oh yeah, selepak is spelled with a yukelipentu (Alt + '")ៈ   សិល្បៈ Trilinguist (talk) 05:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

POSSIBLE LINK
I am the distributor in the U.S.A of an excellent cookbook titled "The Cuisine of Cambodia" Could I be given a link from your site. Thankyou, Martin. www.asiafinebooks.com
 * Sorry, I'm sure your book is excellent but if we linked to everyone who wanted us to, we would be nothing but links. Kappa 04:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Adding references
I am now starting to add references to hopefully improve the quality of this page. I have managed to cite 3 sources thus far using the limited information regarding Khmer Cuisine available online. There are other things I want to cite but the websites are listed in the blacklist spam websites. Its a pity that editors used that same blacklisted website to write the first paragraph of this page. If you don't mind, I request someone help me appeal the website suite101. And just for your information I am in no way promoting anyone's website or company, I am merely using the information provided in the websites that I cited purely for information due to the lack of resources to write about Khmer Cuisine. Trilinguist 00:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning links
I'm in the mood to prune commercial links - any objections or suggestions for good links on Khmer food we should keep in the article? Paxse 08:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. I've left the link to Khmer Krom recipes - the site is non commercial and the recipes are mostly for standard Khmer favourites that would be too long to appear in a featured article.Paxse 14:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Adding more content
I will start taking pictures of the khmer food that my mom prepares and upload them into this page. Seriously this page needs some pictures or else nobody would know what khmer dishes look like. I will also write some khmer words for the ingredients.
 * I like the dishes you've added so far. The photos sound like a great idea, looking forward to the pictures. By the way, placing four tildes like this ~ at the end of your message, leaves your name and the date and time automatically. It's a good idea to sign like this so people can see who was commenting and reply if they want. Paxse 14:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Where do you think I can place Choaw Kwaey? I feel like we should mention it cause I eat it a lot in kuytiev, hot coffee, and barbaw. Should I make a list of the starches we eat? I need to know a good place to put it since I have a really good picture of chaiy kwaey I just took. Trilinguist 23:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Bravo to you for doing this. Badagnani 23:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You might want to add some information about somlar korko, for I do not know much about this soup, let alone enjoy eating it. I uploaded a picture of somlar korko cause I recall hearing it is considered the national dish of Cambodia. Trilinguist 07:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming your meaning the Chinese donut for chaow kwaey. There is an article on it already. It is called Youtiao.Pwordisony (talk) 09:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I added the noodles section
I added the noodles section because I know of many noodle dishes, but the three that came to mind and were not mentioned were the dishes I wrote. I will be editing this page a lot so don't be surprised to see changes. Oh and the pictures will come, I just have to remember to take pictures of my mother's cooking but lately she have not been preparing family favorites since its summer and the heat is discouraging her from making spicy meals. HOWEVER she has been grilling meat lately and I'm not sure if I should plate a picture of meat and rice and post it here as if it's a popular dish. I need more opinions on this. Is it better to have no pictures or to have pictures of unknown dishes? Trilinguist 05:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Good question. I think it's probably best to have only photos of the really iconic Khmer dishes - a samlor or two, amok, a nice dish of Prohok with some sliced cucumber, and perhaps some unusual ones - char kdau porng samoich anyone? Rather than generic Asian food (rice and meat). I've got some photos here that we've taken and Khmer food is on the menu everyday - so I can probably put some up. Curry numpang for lunch tomorrow - yippee! Paxse 15:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I see. Well I added the noodles section because the summer is very typical for khmer dishes to lean more towards noodles. + my mom made Mi Kalaa today. And I won't bother to upload any meat dishes since you mention its rather mediocre unless its the pork dry noodles. If this page is going to have more pictures, should we resize the dishes? I don't mind if you resize the pictures that I upload so if you decide to don't feel the need to ask cause I am permitting you to :) oh yeah, the curry with the baguettes YUm!!! Please don't forget to upload that one. Trilinguist 22:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I had a great meal of Mee Char yesterday in Kampong Speu - mee, chewy beef bits, shallots, chilli sauce etc all in a plastic bag with borrowed chopsticks for 2000 riel what a bargain. Resizing the pics is a good idea - perhaps we could have a small gallery of dishes in the article. Eventually some of these dishes should have their own articles - with bigger pictures. Upload my curry? NEVER! We're going to eat it all :) Paxse 05:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Hahaha I meant upload the picture of the curry if you take it. Amok Definitely needs its own wiki page but I don't know how to make it. The next time we get some papaya salad, I'll upload a picture and place it in the bok lahong wiki page. New topic, but I think there should be a dessert section. I have pictures of banh Lot :) you know the green worm looking thing in a sweet palm sugar milk. Trilinguist 08:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It was delicious :) You're doing a great job on this article by the way. Making a new page is real easy - type the name of your new article in the search box and if the article doesn't exist it will open in a new edit window - or just follow this link Amok. Cheers, Paxse 16:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Per the naming convention of Wikipedia for country specific topics, topics that extend beyond the geographical area of the country use the "Country topic" format. This is only one of a handful of national cuisine articles that still uses the older "Topic of Country" format. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 09:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to make life a little easier all 'round, could you link to the specific policy? I couldn't find it. Cheers, Paxse (talk) 15:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The policy I am quoting is Naming conventions (country-specific topics). Per the policy: It is important to be able to differentiate when a topic is actually country-specific. Often what may look like a country adjective is really describing a set of people or a language. Notice that "Polish" may mean "From or related to Poland" or "referring to the Polish people or language." For example Polish language, Polish people, even Polish literature (since these articles most often deal with the literature of the set of people, not the country necessarily). By contrast, Culture of Poland, Politics of Poland and Economy of Poland are all describing the country itself. That clearly address the point raised by Paxse. Since cuisine can be found in geographical areas outside of the country itself the Country topic is appropriate. Here is an example about Germany and Poland: Historically Germany has changed its geographic borders a great deal over the course of history, with Poland and France being on the receiving or taking end. As a result there are parts of the latter two countries having a German culture with a history of German cuisine, German wine and German beer. this applies to all countries in which there is a native cuisine. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 05:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - Topical articles by country should employ standard uniform titles to avoid confusion. The "Country topic" format is the most appropriate in the case of cuisine. Neelix (talk) 18:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. Can't quite see why we need separate move discussions for Bangladeshi, Georgian, Burmese, Cambodian, Macedonian and Indian cuisines, it's not that standardisation is always good but these are have similar issues. Andrewa (talk) 12:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Topic articles by country already follow a specific naming convention. This convention has been left out of the selective quoting by the nominator above. Without the selective quoting, Naming conventions (country-specific topics) says:

In general, country-specific articles should be named using the form: "(item) of (country)".

This is the accepted wikipedia naming convention at the top of the policy page. This article already complies with the naming convention. We have already moved it once from Khmer cuisine to make it comply with the damn naming convention. It does not need to be moved again to make it an exception. This article is already a sub article of the parent article Culture of Cambodia. The other child articles are:
 * Architecture of Cambodia,
 * Religion in Cambodia,
 * Childhood and adolescence in Cambodia
 * Courtship, marriage, and divorce in Cambodia
 * Social organization in Cambodia
 * Visual arts of Cambodia
 * Music of Cambodia
 * Dance of Cambodia
 * Cinema of Cambodia
 * Sport in Cambodia

and finally Cuisine of Cambodia. Should all these articles be renamed as exceptions to the naming convention? Judging by his talk page, the nominator is on some kind of bizarre crusade to rename all the cuisine articles (and only the cuisine articles) - creating fragmented discussions on many pages. The nominator also removed several oppose votes from WP:RM, see diff. This all seems like a complete waste of time to me. Why not spend all that energy improving the cuisine articles? Paxse (talk) 20:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You are actually the one selecting the parts of the policy, your argument ignores the caveats section which my proposal follows. While this is a subject that originates in Cambodia, it is not about Cambodia. That is why the title Cambodian cuisine is the proper name. The cuisine originates from the Khmer Empire which was not exclusive to what we now call Cambodia. Additionally, Cambodian cuisine can be found globally due to immigration of Cambodians. This is inline with the article Khmer language and Cambodian language redirect, as directed in the Caveats section of the policy.


 * Additionally, I removed them because they are not supposed to got there but here in this discussion, period. You also fail to mention once I put the proposal back into the proper section, you again started the discussion up on the proposed move page which was again deleted by another contributor.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 04:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose - Each article is named for a reason and uniformity is thus unnecessary, and, in some cases, undesirable. Redirects exist for each national cuisine article. Badagnani (talk) 20:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you are looking for uniformity, then Cambodia cuisine would be the proper name as it follows the naming structure of almost all of the 200+ cuisine articles. The others are in the process of being or have been renamed to the Country topic format. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 04:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong support for reasons of naming consistency across cuisine articles and conformity with Wikipedia guidelines for naming country-related articles in cases when the subject matter extends beyond the physical boundaries of the country. --Zlerman (talk) 12:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. not only for standardization, but many of cuisines articles talk about the cuisines outside of the main country and as such are no longer the cuisine of that country, but they are "that style" of cuisine so this change is grammatically correct as well. There needs to be a stop to individual articles having their "own style" as this is academically improper as it will lead to a lack of consistency and possible confusion to the reader, especially when students of culinary arts are looking to these articles for education, like the ones I teach.  It is also this lack of consistency that has kept other academics from allowing their students to use Wikipedia for research.--Chef Tanner (talk) 15:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Oppose The fact that the "Cuisine of Cambodia" is now prepared and eaten in California, for example, doesn't make it any less the "Cuisine of Cambodia" -- it is simply the cuisine of Cambodia eaten in California. Frankly, to spend this much time and effort on this proposal seems to me to be very wasteful.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 03:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * How is saying Cuisine of Cambodia significantly different or better than saying Cambodian cuisine? Shouldn't Cambodia come first as the key part of the subject?ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Support (just put "strong" because it seems to be a trend for RM).--Caspian blue 00:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Canvassing support for article moves
(posted by User:Paxse and removed from discussion page of proposing editor)

Apparently, the naming conventions for cuisine articles are an extremely important issue for you. However, I really think that your behaviour over this article renaming is getting a little out of hand. Canvassing support for your position by posting messages on the talk pages of those who have supported your position in the past is frowned upon on Wikipedia. This kind of votestacking is contrary to policy, see WP:CANVAS. Developing consensus doesn't just mean the consensus that you want. What you have been attempting to do on the cuisine article pages and at WP:RM is attempting to WP:GAME the system. This is disruptive and not conducive to the co-operative atmosphere. A look at various naming convention policy pages show that you have been pursuing this agenda in various fora since at least August this year. Significantly, no clear consensus has ever emerged in any of these discussions - not even in the Food and Drink Wikiproject, where you are very active.

It's clear from your contributions that you are a very valuable contributor to the project. You have done excellent work on many articles particularly related to food and drink. As someone who has read the Burger King article, I personally appreciate your hard work to make that article such an interesting and informative read.

Unfortunately, something seems to have changed. Judging by your recent edit history you have become somewhat fixated on the issue of naming for national cuisine articles. The move logs show that you have personally moved 30+ national cuisine articles in the last week to follow your preferred naming convention. Presumably these were little watched articles where you experienced no immediate opposition to your proposed changes. Currently, you are aggressively arguing, canvassing and using misleading edit summaries to achieve the renaming of another half a dozen articles. This is not how consensus is developed. At a bare minimum, I am politely requesting that you immediately stop canvassing inputs only from editors who support your position on renaming these articles. Badagnani (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I have only notified people who have commented in similar discussions to join this conversation, adding neutral notifications to everyone who had not commented on this discussion. Since most of these discussions only have one oppose on these discussions, I cannot notify any one else. I have also placed this discussion on the WP:FOOD page to notify the project members of this discussion. Please do not again ascribe thoughts to my actions that you have no knowledge of.


 * As to my edit history, I often start a specific project, such as, and work on that for several days or weeks until such a time that there is a uniformity on all related articles, including templates, categorization and naming. I have also done this with the various Food & Drink child project homepages, the Food & Drink tagging project and others. This is my latest endeavor. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 18:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The notification, despite all pleas to the contrary, was highly selective. I did not receive such a notification, and, in fact, less than one day ago the editor above left (as he has done two or three times earlier) a highly insulting reference to me in this edit. None of this meets the Wikipedian ideals to which we aspire, and I ask that they be discontinued immediately, along with the protests against canvassing, when it is quite clear from the edit history. Badagnani (talk) 18:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Because you had already commented on them just a day after I had set up the discussions. Why do I need to notify you if you had already stated your opinion? --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 18:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Badagnani, let's not make this personal. If you want to notify people about this discussion in a neutral manner to bring wider attention to this discussion please do so. Perhaps a notice on the relevant country pages would be helpful? There is no reason to believe Jerem43 wasn't acting in good faith. It's helpful to bring people into discussions and I appreciate his efforts in that regard. Our focus is best kept on the issue at hand. I would like a clearer explanation of why you are opposed to instituting a common naming convention on these articles. Which ones are you opposed to and why? What is wrong with naming them in a similar way? ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Rewrite the intro please
The intro is really bad and I hope someone will rewrite it to explain the murky statements and make it encyclopaedic. I have added a few tags to mark just some of the bad parts.

To me it sounds like it was copy pasted from an advertisement for Cambodian cooking classes or maybe the back cover of a cookbook. RhinoMind (talk) 01:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

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