Talk:Camel spin

Camel spin Variation
Is there a source that calls this bent-leg layover variation after Kim Yu-Na? I don't want a citation that she has done the spin, but that it's been named after her.

Also, please discuss this on the talk page instead of engaging in an edit war. :) Kolindigo (talk) 21:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Is YouTube considered a reliable source? Well, its was by Monorete in their latest edit. Byxbee (talk) 03:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Kim Yu-Na is certainly not the "unique" skater to do this spin, in any case. To cite a specific reference, Beverley Smith's book "Figure Skating: A Celebration", published in 1994, includes a full-page photo on page 252 of Josee Chouinard performing the spin; it was one of her signature moves during her competitive career.  I've also seen video of other skaters performing the spin back at least as far as the early-to-mid 1980's.  (No, Tonya Harding didn't invent it, either.)  Dr.frog (talk) 19:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Why are you too miserly to give a little credit to Kim Yu-Na for her outstanding spin skill. I know she is not the 'only' skater to do it in whole figure skating history but she is the 'only' skater who performed it last season and even in her generation of skating. She has performed it 'CONSISTENTLY' in her all free skating program since her junior age and succeeded to gain positive GOE in combination spins including it. That's the reason why her camel is 'unique'. I just compromised not to name it after Yu-Na because there is no consensus internationally. But it is true that her move is gorgeous (comparing with Harding's or Chouinard's) and some people want to spread out her skill. The youtube sources are one of their effors. The movie itself is too arificial to approve as reference but the replies for the movies are a kind of movement to build the right 'consensus'. I think this is very useful information like what Harding camel looks like, who is performing it now and why it is too unique for other skaters to perform. Sorry for poor English and Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monorete (talk • contribs) 04:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yu-Na Kim is certainly not the "only" skater performing this spin in the last season or in her generation. I've seen other skaters here in the US performing it as well, many of whom are not famous, and who skate only at club competitions and shows that are not televised.  With all due respect, you seem very focused on promoting Yu-Na Kim's accomplishments, and not to know a lot about the history of skating or what other skaters in other parts of the world are doing.  I like Yu-Na's skating a lot myself, but she is just an example of a skater who's performed this spin, not its inventor or sole practitioner.  I see that for other variations here we list some other skaters who've performed them as examples, so how about if I add Chouinard here too since we have a specific reference, and then we all agree to leave it alone?  Dr.frog (talk) 12:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't know there were some skaters who performed it in the national (or local) competitions. I just tried to mention that I couldn't find anyone who performed it 'seriously' in the last world championship and Grand Prix champs. Probably, there are some in clubs and local communities but i'm not sure what is required to comment that something is specialty of a certain player. We can't consider all players in the world who is never famous and never known. Maybe some of them have got inspiration from Kim Yu-Na's performance. Anyway, I had no source or example how seriously and impressively Chouinard had performed it. I have a question about the naming. Is there any official source about when and who named it after Harding except "frogsonice.com". Is this website managed by you (I just guess it from your user name)? Harding's move is completely different from Yu-Na's and even from Chouinard's. How can I suggest 'officially' that we need a different name for Yu-Na's (or Chouinard's) camel? Still I have a plan to claim in the future that Harding's bent-leg camel was not started from layover position so it's not appropriate to name Yu-Na's bent-leg layover camel as Harding camel. What do you think about that? Monorete (talk) 19:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe the original source for calling the spin the "Harding spin" was Dick Button's commentary in the ABC telecast of the 1993 U.S. Figure Skating Championships. The video is available on YouTube here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cQQVfGrecU ; it's the first spin she does, about a minute into the video clip.  Of the three skaters (Harding, Chouinard, and Kim), I'd have to label Josee's as the best example of the spin; she used to get all the way into the layover position, and typically held the spin much longer than the two rotations or so that Yu-Na does in that position.  Dr.frog (talk) 20:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I know this Harding's video clip. If it is first spin she did and Dick just called THIS as 'Harding camel' then the definition of Harding camel described here, wiki and frogsonice.com is completely 'WRONG'. Harding camel is NOT similar to layover camel. Her spin is just 'bent-leg camel' spin. Why don't you correct it and why don't you make a new variation of camel spin named 'bent-leg layover camel' which has been performed by Chouinard and Yu-Na and so on? Let's do it now and let's think about who is a representative skater for this LATER Monorete (talk) 22:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

What's the point, Monorete? After reading your arguments, it's clear your intent is promoting Yu-Na Kim. Even if you get your way, you will probably still be arguing that Kim should be the only one taking credit for the "bent-leg layover" spin. Everything you've said is based on your own opinion. And original research is not allowed in Wikipedia. You're adamantly edit warring with editors and not taking their opinions to consideration (as evident with your warnings and ban from Wikipedia). By the way, YouTube is NOT a reliable source and will be removed. For future reference about reliable sources, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Are_IRC.2C_MySpace.2C_and_YouTube_reliable_sources.3F

Find another editorial source that refers to the "Harding spin" as the "Yu-Na spin" or bent-leg layover. I don't think anyone will have a problem once you do so. I am on the side of Dr.Frog, so I believe that's a general consensus. 75.63.19.205 (talk) 23:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Right now, I'm in favor of removing the Harding name from the article altogether and just listing it as a lay-over variation. I don't think "Dick Button called it that" is a good enough reason to call the variation by that name. I respect Dick Button as a pioneer in the sport, but I don't think he has official naming rights to anything. I'm also not in favor in general of starting to list skaters known or well-known for doing a spin. The Hamill camel is one thing; "that skater did it at Worlds" is completely another. It opens up too huge a can of worms. If a spin has been officially named after Kim Yu-Na in Korea, then we can add to the article that this spin is known as the Yu-Na Camel in Korea. Until then, it seems like all too much original research. Kolindigo (talk) 00:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

To 75.63.19.205

Hey, don't be upset. I was discussing with all of you and suggested new subject last time before executing something. I also TOTALLY agree Dr.Frog's last edit on camel spin page. Right now, I'm just having a little question if 'Harding camel' is quite official. I think many of you agree that Harding's original camel variation is not similar to layover. The definition of Harding camel may be wrong. If so, we should discuss about correction of Harding camel and addition of new variation of layover camel. That's my point. Yes, I tried to put a new variation named Yu-Na camel but I learned from other users and changed my mind and is thinking what is best. Thank you for your advice about reliability of youtube video but the citation which I linked is not a 'source'. It's an EXAMPLE of this spin. Let me think about the reliability more. And thank you for letting me know wiki can't be original resource.

To Kolindigo

Let me care for original research. Thank you. I'm IN favor of listing skaters known or well-known for doing a spin if there is a consensus like that Ito Midori is well-known for an triple axel jump. For Harding camel, I agree your point. Let's remove Harding spin or fix it to bent-leg camel spin. Monorete (talk) 03:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Re the "Harding camel" name, I don't think the ISU has ever officially given the spin variation a name, but there is a reliable published source -- the ABC broadcast -- in which probably the world's most recognized expert in the sport stated the spin is called that. WP's standard is that assertions in articles must have been reported in reliable sources, not that the assertions be provably true beyond a shadow of a doubt or controversy.  OTOH, I wouldn't be opposed to rewriting the article to describe the spin in generic terms and say it has sometimes been called a Harding camel, rather than making Harding camel be the primary name of the thing.  If you Google, you'll find that fans do sometimes use "Harding camel" or "Harding spin" to describe the move, so Button's name for it has some continuing legitimacy.  Dr.frog (talk) 14:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I read the material about the reliability of source and I found Youtube can be accepted as a secondary source if they can be traced to a reliable publisher. What I linked to show an example of Yu-Na's move were all video clips or montage of "broadcast" and any of you can trace the original source of the broadcast. Those were not artificial or fake. I think it is acceptable as a secondary source. What do you think about that? Youtube may be reponsible for a copyright of the clips, doesn't it? I want to hear your thought. Thank you. Monorete (talk) 17:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think you understand the examples of reliable sources from the link I posted. Montages are self-made. That is not a reliable source. Even for unedited videos that have the watermark logo of a network, it is still difficult to trace especially when there is usually no information where the video was recorded from. And if it is authentic, there will copyright issues and the video could be removed at any time. YouTube is NOT responsible for copyright violations, but they do enforce copyright laws by removing videos uploaded without permission. Even authentic videos should be used with caution. If you read the reliable sources page like you said you did, you should have seen that.


 * Just give YouTube a rest. Find another reliable editorial source.


 * I am in favor of renaming the spin for now. But if it's renamed to "bent-leg layover" or some other name, it's going to sound too general to accredit certain skaters of performing the spin. Any skater can then bend their knee during a camel spin and it could be called a bent-leg camel or layover.


 * Oh by the way Monorete, you mentioned earlier that "the citation which I linked is not a 'source'. It's an EXAMPLE of this spin". Examples can't be sources here at Wiki. And if it's not a source, you shouldn't have used the reference code to link to those videos. Those are only for citing sources. 76.195.163.2 (talk) 23:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok. I see. Thank you. One thing. I don't think any skater can bend his/her knee during spin. If anybody can do without any exercise, we don't need to call it with special name. The only case that a skater has to practice over and over to achieve nice position and move, it's worth to have its own name. I think 'bent-leg layover camel' is one of them. I also hope that it can have a unique name through a consensus and I suggest 'Yu-Na camel' as one of them, which many of you is against. Monorete (talk) 06:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think it's been made quite clear that it should not be renamed to the "Yu-Na camel". Especially when no one seems to have found a good source calling the spin the "Yu-Na". I thought this dispute was already resolved because of earlier bickering, but I guess not...


 * Anyway I'm changing the name now. I hope there are no more problems. 76.195.163.2 (talk) 07:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think 'bent-leg layover' is fine as the 'name' for the move. It's just a definition of the spin. There isn't a official naming process or consensus either. Wiki again became a original source. I'd like to just include Chouinard's and Yu-Na's move as a variation of Layover camel as long as people don't permit to name it specially. Monorete (talk) 17:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I've found another early reference to the bent-leg layover camel position: the March 1981 issue of "Skating" magazine has a photo on page 44 of intermediate lady Danielle Babaian performing this spin at that season's North Atlantic regional championship. As Babaian was probably about 12 years old at the time, I'd guess she did not invent it herself, but was taught to do it by her coach or choreographer; so probably the origin is still further in the past. "Skating"'s article on the next year's Eastern sectional also mentions Babaian performing an "inverted camel". I had previously thought that Canadian skater Kay Thomson was also performing this spin in the early 1980s, but after reviewing video of several of her competitive performances I've concluded it wasn't one of her standard spins and I was probably mistaken in thinking I'd seen her do it. (Thomson did, however, do a very unusual back layback spin.) Dr.frog (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

A .gif animation is NOT a reliable source!
Recent edits have made me become aware that someone added a .gif animation as a source for Yuna Kim's camel spin. A picture is NOT a source. A reliable source has to be a published source, usually with oversight.

This is the animation is question. There's another one with a male skater, which will also be removed. http://pds8.egloos.com/pmf/200807/25/56/e0045056_4888d0dd5d031.gif

I am removing these, and whoever added may want to look at WP:RS. If you disagree about the removal, please discuss it here on the talk page before starting another edit war with an administrator getting involved.

Byxbee (talk) 12:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Not only are they not reliable sources, those animations are copyright violations. Kolindigo (talk) 04:35, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 10:45, 29 April 2016 (UTC)