Talk:Camp Trans

Verifiability
Does anyone have an image of the 1975 poster that says womyn-born-womyn only? Verifiability is one of the pillars of Wikipedia, and this is an obvious point of contention. 75.67.39.175 02:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A copy of the poster isn't needed for verifiability, a WP:RS confirming its existence would suffice. That said, I agree that if the statement cannot be verified then it should be removed. Neitherday 03:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and tagged the passage as "citation needed". Neitherday 03:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Yellow Armbands
I feel that much of the content previously deleted is relevant to this article. I think it would be fair to perhaps edit the content (I'm not sure how relevant the entire history of Yellow Armbands/Fest For All Womyn is...that should probably be a different article), but some of this needs to stay. RapunzelSaves (talk) 05:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that the Yellow Armbands organization is changing its name. I do know what to, but I spoke with the current "head" of the organization and that is what she told me. Maybe I can get her to write something so we can have a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.101.236 (talk) 07:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I think yellow armbands were "fest for all women" in 2007. FFAW were the people who requested us to host a discussion. Thanks, Troy! katie

The Yellow Armbands as an internal activism strategy at MichFest was not founded by dandypants, but was in fact created mutually by both MichFest workers and Camp Trans activists in 2003, including among others: Grover Wehman, a worker at MWMF, and Jessica Snodgrass, a former organizer with Camp Trans. dandypants did not camp at MichFest or attend Camp Trans until 2005, and did not create the online blog for the YA until late 2005. Beardedladyfilm (talk) 17:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest
A large amount of the current article was written by Beardedladyfilm, aka dandypants or pandapajamas. See her admission at http://community.livejournal.com/yellowarmbands/42267.html. As shown in that post on the Yellow Armbands livejournal community, which she is the only person with posting access, she is far from having a neutral point of view on Camp Trans. Her feelings seem to have skewed the article both to magnify her own importance (and that of the Yellow Armbands) and the events of 2006, a single year of Camp Trans' 16 year history. In addition, she referenced her own writing/livejournal community and other unreliable sources. Can something be done to NPOV this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.169.233 (talk) 21:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

It is common practice for both MichFest and Camp Trans to use potentially biased sources as verification for their current activism and policies. For example, the only other supposedly verifiable website that is listed as a source by both organizations is Emi Koyama's, "eminism.org", of which she is the sole contributor.

From 2005 to 2007, the Yellow Armbands blog on Livejournal was a community moderated and group participatory process. Many of the entries referenced in this article that are linked via the YA blog were written by persons other than dandypants.Beardedladyfilm (talk) 17:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Censorship of Verifiable Information
There have been numerous attempts to censor and delete factual and verifiable information on this wikipedia page as well as the Camp Trans official website, pertaining to activism that occurred within or "inside" of the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival from 2006 to 2007. I have added further citations and relevant information to back up my contributions, most notably radio broadcasts that appeared on 88.3 WCBN Ann Arbor's: "Closets 'R' For Clothes", on July 12 and August 16, 2006; as well as an article that was published in Curve Magazine in July 2007.

The picture that was published in the July 2007 article of Curve Magazine that featured Camp Trans organizers: Jessica Snodgrass, Lorrraine Donaldson, Emilia Lombardi, and myself, dandypants (Beardedladyfilm) of the Yellow Armbands; was taken the day that Donaldson and Lombardi presented a workshop inside of the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, on Friday, August 11, 2006. This photo was taken by Snodgrass and was suggested for publication in Curve mutually by Camp Trans and Yellow Armbands in 2007, although it originally appeared at the LiveJournal community I used to moderate ("yellowarmbands") in August 2006.

I think it is one thing to disagree with political strategy and opinions, but quite another to literally remove factual data from the wikipedia or internet, by falsely claiming that there exists no citations. Clearly, published verifiable sources are out there, so I would question the motives behind assertions to the contrary.

One further note: The individual who made the "weasel words" and "conflict of interest" allegations erroneously changed the date that Donaldson was admitted to MichFest from Wednesday, August 9, 2006, to Tuesday, August 8, 2006. Donaldson herself states that she made *two* attempts to buy a ticket in 2006 and that she was only successful on the second attempt, or on Wednesday, August 9, 2006. On Tuesday, August 8, she approached the gate and asked to buy a ticket, but was denied entrance. She returned the following day and was finally successful.

Confirmation of information contained within this statement can be found within the "Articles" and "References" sections of the main article. 07:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Beardedladyfilm (talk)

You can't remove your own Conflict of Interest tag! What part do you not get of the rule about not editing Wikipedia about yourself?! 24.185.6.40 (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Citation Notes & Comments
I have cleaned up this section to encompass all notes and commentary regarding citations, since several people were complaining so vehemently between 2009-2010 that the edits lacked verifiable evidence and sources. dandypantsfilms (talk) 08:38, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Regarding conflict between Schrandit and Spotfixer, see below. dandypantsfilms (talk) 08:38, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Why do you keep re-posting unsourced content? - Schrandit (talk) 04:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you have a specific item that you genuinely doubt the existence of a reliable source for, state one here. If you can't, then your bluff has been called.  You have 24 hours. Spotfixer (talk) 05:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Seriously, see Verifiability. Everything that I removed was tagged as unsourced since July of 2008. - Schrandit (talk) 05:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Seriously, if you can't show me even a single legitimate citation request, I'm removing them all. You have your deadline, so what are you wasting time here for? Spotfixer (talk) 05:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Numerous citations added today for Yellow Armbands and Camp Trans content. dandypantsfilms (talk) 08:38, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

All of the scribd citations lead to deleted pages. Maybe someone should either fix that, or delete the information that is theoretically being verified by these deleted links? I don't know how to do it myself, since I came here to do a research paper on this issue, but all those dead links have been the opposite of helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.60.22.246 (talk) 07:53, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

In response to the comment above regarding deleted Scribd.com citations, I wanted to note that my account at Scribd.com was hacked and that the content was subsequently taken down. I am working on re-posting PDF files on the web. This work should be completed by fall 2015.

ElizabethSherry (talk) 21:04, 12 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.186.165 (talk)

Reworded a lot, removed weasel words tag.
I think if anyone still has issues with how this article is worded, I think the current Original Research tag is enough. I no longer think it needs both. P.S. I am a very un-biased editor as I have never been to Camp Trans or MWMF, nor do I know anyone who has. Eddie mars (talk) 15:15, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Confirmation as to Whether Trans Woman Have Applied For Worker Positions Since 2008
I wanted to note that no one at either festival has confirmed whether or not out trans women have applied for worker positions since the end of the exclusionary policy. It would also be helpful for people who have historical documentation in regards to past trans women workers, to clarify if stealth trans women have ever been workers in the past. It has already been established that Vogel has no legal right as an employer of paid or non-paid staff (volunteer staff) to deny a person a position based on their trans or non trans status. To do so would entail sex discrimination at the very least. One of my last efforts as an activist before people began making literal attempts on my life in 2007, was to network with MichFest workers to ascertain how one could go about the process of amalgamating trans women peace activists into Workerville. Dandypantsfilms (talk) 06:58, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Original research based on unreliable sources
This article is full of original research. WP:RS does not allow the use of primary sources such as Internet forums, Google Groups, LiveJournal, and transcripts of conversation on AOL. In addition, neither press releases nor other documents hosted on scribd may be used as sources. Please replace these unacceptable sources with valid, reliable, third-party published sources such as news reports, articles, and books. Thanks. Skyerise (talk) 21:23, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Camp Trans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.confluere.com/store/pdf-zn/mich-handbook.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101129014722/http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11968 to http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11968

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 23:21, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 10 one external links on Camp Trans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108104418/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57432037/Festival-Program-Camp-Trans-Information-August-2005 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57432037/Festival-Program-Camp-Trans-Information-August-2005
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108084831/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57434110/Camp-Trans-Trans-Inclusion-Festival-Attendee-Info-Sheet-August-2005 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57434110/Camp-Trans-Trans-Inclusion-Festival-Attendee-Info-Sheet-August-2005
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108104405/http://www.scribd.com/doc/58594439/Festival-Program-Camp-Trans-August-2006 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/58594439/Festival-Program-Camp-Trans-August-2006
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108083534/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57420131/News-Is-the-Michigan-Debate-Over-Curve-Magazine-07-2007 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57420131/News-Is-the-Michigan-Debate-Over-Curve-Magazine-07-2007
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108083534/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57420131/News-Is-the-Michigan-Debate-Over-Curve-Magazine-07-2007 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57420131/News-Is-the-Michigan-Debate-Over-Curve-Magazine-07-2007
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108084915/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57433853/Festival-Program-MWMF-featuring-Trans-Inclusion-Discussion-August-2006 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57433853/Festival-Program-MWMF-featuring-Trans-Inclusion-Discussion-August-2006
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108084249/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57421336/Email-Lina-Corvus-Conversation-with-Lorraine-Donaldson-on-AOL-IM-regarding-fall-out-from-2006-press-releases-09-18-06 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57421336/Email-Lina-Corvus-Conversation-with-Lorraine-Donaldson-on-AOL-IM-regarding-fall-out-from-2006-press-releases-09-18-06
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108084225/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57429484/Blog-Former-organizer-of-Camp-Trans-Sean-admits-no-elections-occurred-at-Camp-Trans-prior-to-2007-04-08-07 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57429484/Blog-Former-organizer-of-Camp-Trans-Sean-admits-no-elections-occurred-at-Camp-Trans-prior-to-2007-04-08-07
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108083544/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57422924/Press-Release-Michigan-Womyn-s-Music-Festival-Sets-The-Record-Straight-08-22-06 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57422924/Press-Release-Michigan-Womyn-s-Music-Festival-Sets-The-Record-Straight-08-22-06
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121108084154/http://www.scribd.com/doc/57424801/AOL-IM-Conversation-Dandypants-announces-her-resignation-from-the-Yellow-Armbands-05-27-07 to http://www.scribd.com/doc/57424801/AOL-IM-Conversation-Dandypants-announces-her-resignation-from-the-Yellow-Armbands-05-27-07

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 22:45, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 1 one external link on Camp Trans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101129014722/http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11968 to http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11968

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 02:51, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 1 one external link on Camp Trans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101129014722/http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11968 to http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11968

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 17:22, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Camp Trans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090115211653/http://www.villagevoice.com/2000-09-12/columns/trouble-in-utopia/ to http://www.villagevoice.com/2000-09-12/columns/trouble-in-utopia/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140116081636/http://zinelibrary.info/pink-and-black-attack-6 to http://zinelibrary.info/pink-and-black-attack-6

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 17:41, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Camp Trans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140116134823/http://notyrcisterpress.tumblr.com/post/1408829853/let-trans-women-speak-a-response-to-camp-trans to http://notyrcisterpress.tumblr.com/post/1408829853/let-trans-women-speak-a-response-to-camp-trans

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:59, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Article status April 2022
Note for anyone else who has this page on their watchlist, or stumbles upon it. Due to the long standing citation style maintenance message, I've followed on from the work that started in March, by making as many of the live and archived URLs consistent with Citation Style 1. In that process I filled out several bare references, adjusted the existing CS1 templates for more specific ones, and added archive-url/date/url-status for all citations that were missing them and have been archived.

Unfortunately, there are a number of very long standing dead and fully rotted URLs, as noted above by both CyberBot II and InternetArchiveBot. A lot of these are primary press releases, by officials at Camp Trans, and the Michigan Womyn's Music Fesitival. As I've thus far been unable to find any archived copies on the usual sources, I shall instead now take a look and see if I can find any secondary sources that we can replace those with. This may take some time however so I have also added the Template:Primary sources maintenance tag to the article as well as a hidden content note beside that tag, in case anyone else is able to help. I'll update this section as and when I am able. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Dana Rivers
Just noting that the today, was previously discussed on Rivers' talk page. The sourcing that is available for this is sensationalistic, trying to establish a link between Rivers', Camp Trans, and Mitchfest where none was discussed or established during the trial. This seems massively undue to me to include here and verging on WP:COATRACK. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * If any other notorious or notable human was reported to have protested at Camp Trans, like Brad Pitt or Cher or Ted Bundy or Jimmy Carter or Cardi B, whoever, and there were literally 10 or so professional publications reporting that fact, surely it would appear on the Camp Trans and MichFest pages. Why does Rivers get special treatment? Bhdshoes2 (talk) 05:22, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I've this over at Talk:Dana Rivers. If you don't mind, I'd like to keep conversation primarily there and/or at Talk:Michigan Womyn's Music Festival for now, just so that we're not holding this discussion, that is touching on the same issue, in three separate venues at the same time. Otherwise this conversation will likely consist of copy/pasted replies from the other two talk pages. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)