Talk:Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–1924)

Old talk
Just curious, according to what criteria do some camps merit the distinction of being called "concentration camps"? Was this the official Polish terminology at the time? If not, it would be good to see some justification for the use of such a loaded term. Balcer 07:23, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Please keep in mind that this term became loaded only after WWII. It was in a pretty regular use at the beginning of the century. Even in early Soviet Union some camps were called concentration camps. The data are from an official Polish reply to some Russian request; the grouping is copied from there. I will try to find a good reference. From what I've read so far, the "POW camp" term seems to refer to WWI-originated camps, but this is my opinion solely. I did not get into a detailed research yet.
 * I am not a historian, and this article was prompted by a request of some Russian wikipedian somewhere. I just stumbled upon a piece of data while surfing, and since it addressed the issue, I added this article and updated wrong data in Tuchola article. Mikkalai 08:00, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, this was the official Polish terminology of the time. The POW camp network was subdivided onto several levels of camps and sub-camps. Each brigade had it collective points, from which the POWs were transfered to divisional collective points. Then they were transferred to concentration or transfer camps, where they were subject to interrogation, washing and quarantine, after which they were either sent to POW camps in Poland or to civilian internment camps or reffugee camps. Also the camps for allied military units that were only temporarily interned in Poland were called concentration camps, since as a matter of fact these served for concentration of those units before they were sent back to the front or to the proper places where organisation of new allied military units took place.


 * Between September 1919 (when the reorganisation of POW camp system took place) and the end of the war, there were the following permanent camps in Poland:


 * POW camps No. 1 to 5 in: Strzałkowo, Wadowice, Łańcut, Pikulice, Szczypiono
 * POW camp No. 7 in Tuchola
 * Internees camps 1 to 15 (number and locations constantly changing as the internees were either sent home or released)
 * Selective and Concentration Stations (Stacja Rozdzielcza i Koncentracyjna) No. 1 to 25 (most notable in Puławy, Stryj, Dorohusk, Lublin, Białystok and Stryj; many more were organised, depending on the front situation)
 * Two POWs Sending Points (Punkt Wysy&#322;kowy Je&#324;ców) in Brześć and Kowel (from there the POWs were repatriated to Denikin's forces in Crimea)
 * Two POW Exchange Points (Punkt Wymiany Je&#324;ców) in Baranowicze and Równe (established after the cease-fire for the exchange of Soviet POWs for Poles held in Russian captivity
 * Do you need more info? I have Karpus' book at hand right now. Let me know on my talk page should you have any questions. Halibutt 03:04, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Western Ukrainians
Some Western Ukrainian nationalist POWs were kept in the same camps and sometimes branded as "Bolsheviks". Xx236 14:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Would you be able to support this with any sources ? That would be most helpful. --Lysy (talk) 14:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Indeed, some more details would be helpful. Halibutt 18:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

http://www.msz.gov.pl/files/file_library/39/001030_1965.doc http://www.pwin.c-net.pl/biuletyn6.html http://www.obliczahistorii.pl/prasa.php?Wypisz=51 Xx236 12:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks but neither of these links provides significant details on Ukrainian POWs. How many of them were detained ? In what conditions ? When were they released ? --Lysy (talk) 01:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe: Zapomniana wojna Walki o Lwów i Galicję Wschodnią 1918 - 1919 Kozłowski Maciej Xx236 12:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/C/R/Cracow.htm 300 POWs died in Cracow-Dąbie camp.

Another source found
This 1998 article in Nezavisimaya Gazeta (in Russian) cites that according to Polish documents 22,000 prisoners died in only in Tuchola alone:
 * Особой жестокостью обращения и особо тяжелыми условиями отличались польские концлагеря в Стшалково и Тухоли. Последний впервые в выходившей в Варшаве белой прессе был назван "лагерем смерти", и название за ним впоследствии прочно закрепилось. Информируя руководство военного министерства 1 февраля 1922 г. о побегах военнопленных, начальник 2-го отдела Генштаба польской армии полковник И.Матушевский писал: "Эти побеги вызваны условиями, в которых находятся коммунисты и интернированные (отсутствие топлива, белья и одежды, плохое питание, а также долгое ожидание выезда в Россию). Особенно прославился лагерь в Тухоли, который интернированные называют "лагерем смерти" (в этом лагере умерло около 22 000 пленных красноармейцев)".

It goes further claiming that mass executions of the Soviets were personally ordered by Sikorski, again according to Polish sources:
 * Массовые расстрелы российских пленных в 1919-1920 гг. - это не пропагандистская выдумка, как стремятся представить дело некоторые польские СМИ. На сей счет имеются свидетельства самих поляков. Так, А.Велевейский в популярной "Газете выборчей" (от 23 февраля 1994 г.) писал о приказах генерала Сикорского (будущего премьера) расстрелять из пулеметов 300 российских военнопленных, а также генерала Пясецкого не брать живыми в плен российских солдат. Есть информация и о других подобных случаях.?

The author estimates the total Soviet deaths at 50-60,000 as follows:
 * На основании имеющихся документов можно сделать следующие подсчеты: всего в польском плену оказались не менее 120-130 тыс. человек. Из них репатриировались 69 тыс., перешли в "белые" формирования 5 тыс., остались в Польше на постоянное местожительство - 1 тыс., умерли в лагерях - получается огромная цифра - 50-60 тыс. чел. 

It has more quotes based on the 1923 report of the Ukrainian-Russian investigative comission as well as the official note of the 1922 Russian representative in Poland but these above are based on Polish own documents.

There is also a link to a response published in the same paper written by a Polish scholar cited as "Збигнев Карпус - доктор исторических наук, профессор Университета имени Коперника в Торуни (Польша)." His estimation is much less but still 16-18,000 as follows:
 * можно констатировать, что в польском плену за весь рассматриваемый трехлетний срок умерло 16-18 тыс. российских военнопленных: около 8 тыс. в лагере в Стшалкове, около 2 тыс. в Тухоли и 6-8 тыс. во всех других лагерях вместе взятых.

While the Russian author cites specific documents, the Polish one just says: "материалы существуют - хотя и в рассеянном виде, но зато в большом количестве "

Sorry for Russian quotes, I can translate them if necessary. I would like to see in advance if someone is going to challenge the source or the number it gives (Russian Nezavisimaya Gazeta is certainly not a tabloid to print outright nonsense) before I will incorporate this information to Wikipedia. --Irpen 04:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * What would be the Polish name of that Polish scholar (Збигнев Карпус I assume)? Academic sources are preferable to a popular press article, but as it is referenced I guess it can be used as a 'top' bracket. As previous Russian sources had been much more conservative (with 20,000 being the highest number) what is the newspaper reason for more then doubling the numbers? Btw, is this an anonimous article?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 05:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know from what original name Збигнев Карпус is transliterated. Probably there are not too many variants to check, especially within the list of professor of Nikolaus Copernicus University. The first article is written by "Юрий Иванов". It is such a common name that you can't make any sense out of google search. However, he sites specific Polish documents. The 22,000 in Tuchola is referenced to "начальник 2-го отдела Генштаба польской армии полковник И.Матушевский" (a Polish colonel, some servise post in General Headquarters) I have no idea hot to transliterate this back, but again there should not be too many variants).

300 prisoners machine-gunned by the personal order of Sikorski is referenced to an article by a Polish author "А. Велевейский" in 23 Feb, '94 Gazeta Wyborcza as well as the order of General "Пясецкий" to not take Russian prisoners alive. He claims that the name death camp was coined for Tuchola in White Russian press in Poland, not the Red propaganda.

Speaking of Red, the info of the murder of the Red Cross mission is also ommitted. If anyone can confirm the names of the Polish people and add what we know about them, it would be helpful. --Irpen 05:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * As I cannot read Cyrillic, I cannot even begin tracking down the professor. Wyborcza article should be possible to track (online archive or library in Poland) rather easily. The Red Cross murder - is this the one Davies mentions?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem. I happen to have both access to Gazeta Wyborcza's archive with the article by Andrzej Wielowieyski, and both the books by Zbigniew Karpus (they are linked in the article, BTW).


 * As to Wielowieyski's article, it's a description of one of the books by Bohdan Skaradziński, a fabularized history of Poland in 20th century. Here's a quote from the relevant chapter of the article (translation by yours truly):
 * Cruelties of War
 * It's good that Skaradziński writes the truth of the war as being a cruel experience in all cases, and often is barbaric. Without too much naturalism, Skaradziński describes the cruelty of the Bolsheviks (if some of the readers want details, I'd recommend what Isaac Babel noted): hundreds of Polish POWs murdered with sabres, murdering officers as a rule of thumb, murdering the wounded, raping and killing the women serving as medics (as was the case of the defence of Płock, which was the only town decorated with Krzyż Walecznych). Skaradziński also tries to balance the responsibility and describes facts not well-known, as for instance Gen. Sikorski's order to execute 300 Cossacks from the units that had previously murdered Polish POWs from Sikorski's army. The highest-awarded Polish officer of cavalry of that war (Virtuti Militari III class), later Gen. Piasecki, used to give orders not to take prisoners on several occasions, and so on.
 * So, contrary to what that Russian article asserts, there's little on the fate of the actual prisoners of Polish POW camps. The article mentions the front-line cruelties, but nothing of the POW camps. I'll add the rest of my reply soon. Halibutt 18:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, on to the rest of the Russian article. The начальник 2-го отдела Генштаба польской армии полковник И.Матушевский is not a proper reference by itself. In English it's Head of the II Detachment of the Polish General Staff Col. Ignacy Matuszewski. I'm not sure of the guy wrote any books so this is just pointing to a person, not to a document. The 2nd Detachment was intelligence and counter-intelligence.
 * As to the Red Cross commission and the reference, Karpus cites the entire document. I can't find the relevant page right now, but the report went more or less like this: the Russian prisoners were ordered not to leave their barracks after dark. Seing some movement in the camp, one of the Polish guards opened fire and soon all of the guards started targeting one of the buildings. In the result of this massacre (the word used in the document) one Russian soldier was killed and one was severely wounded. No wonder Russian articles mention the report, but not what's written in it... Halibutt 18:38, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * To make a long thing short, I'd recommend reading the archive of one of fierce Polish-Russian discussions I took part in some year ago ([available here). There's lots of exact quotes from both Karpus and Russian sources, as well as a plethora of links. Hope you'll like it. Halibutt 18:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Irpen doesn't read his newspaper. The quoted article was answered in 2000 and a Russian book printed http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=501. Xx236 12:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Double standards
"During a war between two countries experiencing great socioeconomic difficulties, and often unable to provide adquately for their own populations, the treatment of prisoners of war was far from adequate." It's amazing how some historical facts get a mutch softer treatment than others. If this article was about Polish POWs is Russia it would probably go "The Soviet authorities deliberatelly exterminated Polish POWs by deniyng them some of the most basic living conditions". To consider that Poland at that time was a democracy which had a free press is pure fiction, it is absolutelly laughable. Several sources point out that the death of so many Russian and Soviet POWs was not just a "sad accident", yet in this article they are just censored. I guess that their deaths don't count ..... User:HelderM 13:50, 21 April 2006
 * What sources? Care to cite any proof to back your assertions?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

It should be mentioned in the article, that no Soviet historian cared about Soviet POWs in Poland till Gorbachev ordered to find something against Poland, when even Polish Communists demanded to publish Katyn massacre details. The Soviets were able to study any piece of paper in Poland 1944-1989 (and many of them 1939-1941) but no Pole responsible for the alleged crimes was identified, tortured and executed. Xx236 11:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Wrong title
The article is about Bolshevik POWs, kept together with Western Ukrainian ones. It doesn't mention explicitly the fate of the Russian prisoners of WWI. Xx236 08:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you provide sources for that? While it makes sense that there would be POWs from PUW, I find it interesting that they would not be transferred to Petliura in 1920. Still, they would probably bear the same hardships as the Bolshevicks (or Poles on the other side), especially the SFlu (well, the 1919 part of it).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

All I knew I quoted above, under Western Ukrainians. Strange that no Ukrainian is interested in the subject. I read an article in Ukrainian about 20 years ago. West Ukrainian National Republic doesn't mention the POWs. Xx236 15:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if you could now remember the bibliographical data of this article...?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It was "Дзвін", under Gorbatshev. I'm sorry, I don't know anything more. Xx236 06:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Karpus indeed mentions some Ukrainian soldiers, but most of them were indeed transferred either to Wrangel (early on) or to Petlura (later). Additional group of Ukrainian soldiers came during the 1920 battles, but these were mostly soldiers of Ukraine who had been forcibly drafted into the Red Army and then deserted to the Polish-Ukrainian side. These were not kept in the POW camps and were in most cases instantly transferred to the Ukrainian Army.  // Halibutt 09:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone living in Cracow can find some data about Dąbie camp, later ZOMO barracs. I mean people taken during the war against Western Ukraine, before 1920. Xx236 14:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Xx236 14:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I used to live just there until about a year ago :/ Now I am far, far away, unfortunately.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Can somebody translate
Recentely the myths about this camps have been solved by joint Russian-Polish state comission: http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=501 It would be good to translate summary of their findings into English. --Molobo 18:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I tried running it through MT but I got gibberish. But I used it to rewrite the article, now the issue of the myth should no longer trouble us. And Russian editors can go and read the Russian 2004 source, which surely should provide them a much more information then this short info notice from Polish archive websites. Perhpas they can also find some Russian language reviews/comments about the book?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Gentlemen, is it me or are you really blind? ;) There's this link called "English version" right above the text. Just click it and... you got a well-translated English version (not that you expected anything else)...  // Halibutt 16:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Apparently we were blind :) Mind you, it is a grey link on a white background: pretty but not very distinctive. I'll append the Polish version with English one right away, thanks! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, black on white would be more helpful...  // Halibutt 07:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Russian Emigrant press from within Poland
That fragment (originally added by Irpen to the main PSW article) spiked my interest. Does it mean that Russian emigrees in Poland had their own newspaper? If so, the fact that it could publish such critiques of Polish government goes long way to show one of the differences beteen contemporary Poland and Soviet Union (free press).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * With the difference that the original caption calls it internment camp (in a pretty pre-reformed Russian), while Jaro's caption calls it concentration camp (which it was, BTW - check my talk with Balcer above).  // Halibutt

Useful ref
See the ref I quote at Talk:Katyn_massacre. It has some useful numbers and such.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

What about Polish POWs in Soviet Russia?
Is there a simmetric article? Xx236 08:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Request fullfilled.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 06:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

1924
Why 1924? Weren't all prisoners released after the Treaty of Riga? At the very least, we need a ref that some remained in custody until that date.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 06:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess it's a leftover from the times when this article was also discussing the UNR soldiers. Anyway, I have Karpus on my shelve and I'll check the date of the last transport as soon as I have some time.  // Halibutt 17:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Rename
What about droping 'camps for...' from the title? The shorter title will be as meaningful and that article (and its companions) are really about prisoners first, camps second. PS. Same goes for 'internees' - were there any Soviet internees in Poland?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 06:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
"Concentration camp and centre locations"

"Concentration camps" is a too big word for the camps around the country after the war. The Russians soldiers in camps were give food and medical support as much as situation could allowed to do this. No one exterminated Russian nation in these camps because of political, religious or nationality views. Quit using propaganda terms. Polish "concentration camps" comparing to these made by Germans are a joke, no one torturred Russian POW's, no one made them die from hunger, no one made them die from non medical treatmend etc. Comparing Polish "concentration camps" for Russian POWs they were heaven to these what Russians had for Polish POW's and historic documents are for this.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 02:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The article is far from neutral, but quite because the opposite of what you say. First, its categorized as "propaganda". Why ? Since when Allied war crimes are categorized as such ? Second, it almost entirely relies on a polish source, it's normal that a lot of things won't be mentioned there, such as the atrocities against prisoners with communist views, and the intented murders of similar. It was a concentration camp, not a children's leisure camp, considering the number of prisoners as well as the conditions there. I'm placing the NPOV template because of the very soft polish view, which is represented in the article. - [[Image:Biohazard orange.svg|17px]] Tourbillon A ? 09:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It was a POW camp. Calling it concentration camp is propaganda. Please read what a concentration camp is before you abuse the term.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The conditions in it likely made it to closely ressemble a concentration camp - diseases and murders. Still, it relies almost entirely on polish sources, and is placed in category "propaganda" - which is far from neutral an article. Not to mention that the word "propaganda" is biased and quite different for every single individual. - [[Image:Biohazard orange.svg|17px]] Tourbillon A ? 17:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The interpretation of conditions is your own speculation, and not a source for Wikipedia. The article is based on reliable Polish-Russian research, and is contradicted only by outdated Russian newspaper publications. If you have sources to the contrary, please provide them, otherwise there is no basis for tagging this article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I am intelligent enough not to impose my point of view, and not to speculate, therefore I do not need your opinion about what am I trying to do. I think we are clear on that. I do not understand what is "outdated russian newspaper publications", neither what is the purpose of a "propaganda" category. I cannot find sources immediately, it will take a few days as I am quite busy in my real life. I won't put the tag for now, but I will remove the category. - [[Image:Biohazard orange.svg|17px]] Tourbillon A ? 07:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a reasonable compromise. I will not restore the category unless a citation is provided for the use of word propaganda in this controversy.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

WHy not B?
As I was asked on my talk page, I didn't think there was enough in the background and camp sections to meet a B. Another paragraph or two in which of decent size should do it, however, if properly sourced.-- Bedford  Pray  18:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. For B-class, this also should have a list of camps. Polish wiki, where more info is located, also has a section on POW exchange, which is not covered here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 22:32, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

The issue was finally settled in 2004
It wasn't settled, the Russian co-author continues his line.Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you be more specific and provide sources and links? From what I understand "finally settled" means that the estimates converged, with Polish historians estimating 16-18k dead while the Russian historian(s) estimated 18-20k. Given the kind of crazy numbers that were being thrown around before hand that can be considered "settled". A separate issue is that the wrong numbers from before are still used for propaganda purposes by some politicians. Volunteer Marek 12:33, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Russian co-editor publishes his POV in 2006, after the book was finished.Xx236 (talk) 07:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.miesiecznik.znak.com.pl/2825/calosc/polska-rosja-trudny-dialog Xx236 (talk) 10:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:21, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Tuchola 1919 russian pow go.jpg

The last part of this article "Poland's losses" has no place on this page and needs to be deleted.
This last part titled "Poland's losses" is nothing but an apologetic sentiment from the Poles for the atrocities they've inflicted on the Soviet prisoners of war. It's really disgusting that this kind of information is allowed on this Wiki page. This is really like posting a section of the "Jewish crimes" on the page about Holocaust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:A45F:F017:2077:B840:AFB5:3764 (talk) 02:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)